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I hope someday someone makes an archetype that is what people were excited about when they read the name "Oozemorph".
I'm updating the class table: New Shifter Class Table 2.0As promised last week, we have made a few more adjustments to the shifter, adding a few abilities to cover up some empty levels on the class, and giving it a few boosts to its ability.
We have also put out an errata on the Oozemorph Shifter, covering some common questions with that archetype.
You can find those changes right here.
I want to thank all of you for your continued thoughts on this class. I also want to thank the vast majority of you for remaining civil and productive in these discussions.
Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design
Paizo Inc.
(FWIW, I’m getting a “permission denied” message when I click that link.)
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I didn't think about that. Ok, that makes sense then. I honestly didn't expect that 'loophole' to survive review so I didn't have it in mind.I believe they are referring to the "oathbreaker" build that maintains Ex abilities and a stable form by telling the code to go stuff itself.
That both fixes issues and causes one of the good ways to play an Oozemorph to go away.How so? It makes it clear that "it loses abilities dependent on form": this should have no impact on change shape abilities like skinwalkers, kitsune and reptoids. SLA/SU abilities should be intact.
I didn't expect it to either, but it's now a super special snowflake ability because it's still a SU ability that works when it shouldn't and can't be lost when it should because they didn't separate it.
(FWIW, I’m getting a “permission denied” message when I click that link.)I'm updating the class table: New Shifter Class Table 2.0As promised last week, we have made a few more adjustments to the shifter, adding a few abilities to cover up some empty levels on the class, and giving it a few boosts to its ability.
We have also put out an errata on the Oozemorph Shifter, covering some common questions with that archetype.
You can find those changes right here.
I want to thank all of you for your continued thoughts on this class. I also want to thank the vast majority of you for remaining civil and productive in these discussions.
Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design
Paizo Inc.
Sorry, fixed that.
This form retains the base senses and land speed of the oozemorph’s original race, as well as racial abilities like dwarfs’ greed or gnomes’ obsession that don’t depend on shape, but it loses abilities dependent on form, including form-based speeds like strix’s flight (and most other racial speeds beyond land speed), racial natural attacks like catfolks’ claws, and other abilities like tieflings’ prehensile tail.
So does this mean that a merfolk oozemorph will have a base speed of 5 in ooze form whether or not they have the "strong tail" racial trait? Even though they're basically indistinguishable from an oozemorph of any other medium race in ooze form?
I guess "Merfolk Oozemorph" being literally the worst race/class combo is a thing we can live with (I guess triton oozemorphs are just as bad.)
Do merfolk oozemorphs also lose "legless" in ooze form, even though their ooze forms have no more legs than their pre-ooze forms? Come to think of it, can you trip a dwarf ooze or a halfling ooze? What does that look like?
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Hmmm... now I have a question: Can you combine Shifter's Fury with Two-Weapon Fighting?
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And do we have a ruling on whether or not the gear on an oozemorph melds into themselves or does the gear drop off? I'm sure mechanically this does the same thing, but I'm sure it will matter in many situations for the archetype.
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All we need if for the Shifter to be able to combine 2 Major Forms when getting Greater Chimeric Aspect and combining 3 Major Forms when getting Final Aspect.
Come on, a Shifter should be able to become an "Owl Bear", a "Bull Frog" or a "Wolf Falcon" (a.k.a. Silverbolt from Beast Wars) :D
I'm updating the class table: New Shifter Class Table 2.0As promised last week, we have made a few more adjustments to the shifter, adding a few abilities to cover up some empty levels on the class, and giving it a few boosts to its ability.
We have also put out an errata on the Oozemorph Shifter, covering some common questions with that archetype.
You can find those changes right here.
I want to thank all of you for your continued thoughts on this class. I also want to thank the vast majority of you for remaining civil and productive in these discussions.
Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design
Paizo Inc.
So if we are still trying to eliminate all "dead" levels, we would want to add one ability that is granted at 7th level and scales up at 12th and 17th levels one one ability that is granted at 13th level. 13th level might be the level for combining major aspects. Maybe 7th/12th/17th level grants access to major aspect forms equivalent to the Monstrous Physique spells?
And, based on precedent for existing archetypes, I don't see the point in nitpicking about dead levels created by peculiarities of archetype class feature replacements.
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So does this mean that a merfolk oozemorph will have a base speed of 5 in ooze form whether or not they have the "strong tail" racial trait? Even though they're basically indistinguishable from an oozemorph of any other medium race in ooze form?
Strong Tail changes your base speed which is what oozemorph references, so a strongtail oozemorph merfolk should have a land speed of 15 and no swim speed.
So oozemorphs are always in fear of drowning, then, even ones that have the Amphibious quality due to their 'base race'?
The Oozemorph clarification is right in line with my RAI....so what I expected.
The equipment melding question becomes even more confusing now....as really the ooze is your actual form, the whole melding of items when your under a polymorph effect would seem to actually occur when you used alter self....which is A$$ backwards.
Not sure I understand Shifters Fury......
So say at 6th level, would a full attack go +6/+1/-4 ???
Assuming that reading is correct, than what happens when TWF is thrown into the mix ?
It's a start.....but seems like there is still a ways to go....
So oozemorphs are always in fear of drowning, then, even ones that have the Amphibious quality due to their 'base race'?
By my reading if the base race you used to build the Ooze with was amphibious....so is the Ooze.
Personally I still see the same conceptual disconnect.....
The concept can be approached from two angles...
You are a Humanoid who is learning to become an Ooze....which the flavor text supports but the mechanics don't.
Or you are an Ooze learning to take on Humanoid form....which the mechanics support but the flavor text doesn't.
At least that's how It comes across to me.
Strong Tail changes your base speed which is what oozemorph references, so a strongtail oozemorph merfolk should have a land speed of 15 and no swim speed.
So does this mean that a merfolk oozemorph will have a base speed of 5 in ooze form whether or not they have the "strong tail" racial trait? Even though they're basically indistinguishable from an oozemorph of any other medium race in ooze form?
Isn't strong tail "based on shape" though?
A few merfolk have broad, strong tails that are more suited for land travel than the typical merfolk tail
Once you become an ooze you lose the breadth and strength of your tail (since you lose your tail).
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I'm sure we can all agree that Oozemorphs are in a bad place as of now. The current entry tries to hit a weird crossroads of flavor and mechanics being at odds with each other, they aren't really that flexible until level 6-8 or so and even then you're constantly playing catch-up with the party.
Awesome a new update:)
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Not sure I understand Shifters Fury......
So say at 6th level, would a full attack go +6/+1/-4 ???
Assuming that reading is correct, than what happens when TWF is thrown into the mix ?
It's a start.....but seems like there is still a ways to go....
Shifter's Fury Claw at +6/+1 and second Claw at +1.
Two-Weapon Fighting is a weird corner case, but I would feel safe saying the Shifter's Fury natural attack would be considered non-natural weapon for the purposes of that feat(and likely the primary hand too) so it would be something like this.
Shifter's Fury Claw +4/-1
Dagger +4/-1
Secondary Claw +1
Not sure I understand Shifters Fury......
So say at 6th level, would a full attack go +6/+1/-4 ???
Assuming that reading is correct, than what happens when TWF is thrown into the mix ?
It's a start.....but seems like there is still a ways to go....
Shifter's Fury Claw at +6/+1 and second Claw at +1.
Two-Weapon Fighting is a weird corner case, but I would feel safe saying the Shifter's Fury natural attack would be considered non-natural weapon for the purposes of that feat(and likely the primary hand too) so it would be something like this.
Shifter's Fury Claw +4/-1
Dagger +4/-1
Secondary Claw +1
.....man this is going to cause a brain hemorrhage to me :P
So Natural weapons would count as one weapon (regardless of how many natural weapon strikes you are making....and another weapon would be thrown into the mix ?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
SNIPI'm updating the class table: New Shifter Class Table 2.0So if we are still trying to eliminate all "dead" levels, we would want to add one ability that is granted at 7th level and scales up at 12th and 17th levels one one ability that is granted at 13th level. 13th level might be the level for combining major aspects. Maybe 7th/12th/17th level grants access to major aspect forms equivalent to the Monstrous Physique spells?
And, based on precedent for existing archetypes, I don't see the point in nitpicking about dead levels created by peculiarities of archetype class feature replacements.
Bonus Feats would fit quite nicely there. Instead of placing A Thousand Faces at 18th level they can instead move it down to 13th level just like the Druid. Placing A Thousand Faces so far up there makes it really limiting.
Shifter' Fury is a step in the right direction. The change to Final Aspect should really be in the wild shape description much like the notification that you wild shape at will at 20th level in the druid's wild shape description.
I still really rather the Shifter had a flexible Wild Shape like the Druid and have the major forms be something you can tack on. And then make Chimeric Aspect let you combine one of your major forms with wildshape or let you combine multiple major form aspects at once.
I'm still not seeing any reason to do more than a dip in Shifter or any of it's Archetypes.......:(
So an Oozemorph qualifies for Shifter's Fury, name any one of your morphic weapons and full attack with it.
At level 7, the Oozemorph also qualifies for multiattack, by virtue of having 3 natural attacks, so you could, in theory attack with MW1 for +7/+2 then MWs 2&3 for +5/+5.
Or is are existing Shifter Archetypes going to be errata'd to not get the new abilities? I can see how this is potentially abusive on the Oozemorph, but frankly the archetype could use a mechanical hook to go with its conceptual one. I guess this isn't that much stronger than multiattack for +5/+5/+5 and attacking with a manufactured weapon for +7/+2 but this lets you invest your resources into just your morphic weapons (so WF: Morphic Weapons and Improved NA (Morphic Weapons) are on the table)
The oozemorph really needs another update, or a buff of some sort. I'm really not seeing a lot of ways to make the oozemorph playable in its current (and quite amorphious) form. I had to delete like 5 lines of suggestions on playing the oozemorph from my shifter guide because as of now they no longer function, at least reasonably well. And I love the oozemorph's concept, so I really want it to work.
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The oozemorph really needs another update, or a buff of some sort. I'm really not seeing a lot of ways to make the oozemorph playable in its current (and quite amorphious) form. I had to delete like 5 lines of suggestions on playing the oozemorph from my shifter guide because as of now they no longer function, at least reasonably well. And I love the oozemorph's concept, so I really want it to work.
Ya I'm not seeing much actual use in the fixes.
The additional abilities come on so late in character Development that they mean nothing.A Thousand faces and Timeless Body should come on line no later than 10th level (IMO).....
The Oozemorph (as of this clarification) is locked out from ever actually owning or benefiting from any equipment or magic items other than Ioun stones.
There is still no reason to take the base class or any of the archetypes beyond a dip of a few levels......
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I'm still not seeing any reason to do more than a dip in Shifter or any of it's Archetypes.......:(
Oh come on! they're busting their bee-hinds on this and I'm sure the end results will be awesome. Based on the changes so far I already know I'll play one. The... flavor factor on these updated shifters is... considerable... :) :) :)
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Yeah. The update helps clarify some of the readability issues the archetype had, but it still suffers pretty heavily from not being great.
Low level gameplay in particular is still almost unmanageable when you get 1 un-incrementable hour of shapeshifting per day... which is the only time you can speak or hold objects.
As it stands I think the archetype needs to either lose all of its restrictions (so speech and full item/equipment usage regardless of form) or it really needs some sort of wow factor to make putting up with is various issues worthwhile.
I do like the ability to make iterative attacks with a natural weapon though. Though that class feature ends up highlighting another problem with natural attacks in that if you don't have a lot of them enhancing gets expensive since AOMF comes at a premium.
I do like the ability to make iterative attacks with a natural weapon though.With multiattack feat the other attacks will be even more awesomer! :)
Most Shifters don't qualify for Multiattack. It requires a character to have three natural attacks at least in their base form, which only Oozemorphs have as a result of their Morphic Weaponry, and even then it's debatable.
That's on top of how it's a Monster feat, which requires explicit GM approval to use these days.
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Yeah. The update helps clarify some of the readability issues the archetype had, but it still suffers pretty heavily from not being great.
Low level gameplay in particular is still almost unmanageable when you get 1 un-incrementable hour of shapeshifting per day... which is the only time you can speak or hold objects.
As it stands I think the archetype needs to either lose all of its restrictions (so speech and full item/equipment usage regardless of form) or it really needs some sort of wow factor to make putting up with is various issues worthwhile.
I do like the ability to make iterative attacks with a natural weapon though. Though that class feature ends up highlighting another problem with natural attacks in that if you don't have a lot of them enhancing gets expensive since AOMF comes at a premium.
If they're making Wild Shape a number of hours equal to your level + wisdom modifier then you might as well give them Wild Shape at first level. Beast Shape I at first level is +2 strength and +2 natural armor isn't out of the ordinary from 1st to 3rd compared to other classes abilities. And the fly speed and maneuverability isn't out there when we have Strix, Wyvarans, and Gathlains flying about.
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Oh come on! they're busting their bee-hinds on this and I'm sure the end results will be awesome. Based on the changes so far I already know I'll play one. The... flavor factor on these updated shifters is... considerable... :) :) :)I'm still not seeing any reason to do more than a dip in Shifter or any of it's Archetypes.......:(
Actually....no they are not.
Flavor is only awesome if the mechanics allow you to meet the flavor.
And I don't say that from some "Angry customer" stand point....but as someone who has been playing these games for over thirty years, and chose to go with Paizo because they seemed to care about their customer base in a way that Wizards simply did not.
I'm not sure where the disconnect is....but their seems to be an inherent resistance on this specific product, specifically to bring it on line with the quality I have come to expect from Paizo and it's design team.
I'm not the least bit interested on speculating why...or spreading rumors as to how it's happened.
But I will say this is not what I expect based on past performance.
I understand and appreciate their efforts so far.
At the same time.....I am not going to "call it good" and give up with a concept when I know they can do so much better ;)
Another thing to note, would Thousand Faces even function with an oozemorph? Fluidic Form already gives them an Alter Self type ability for a super limited amount of time per day.
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Just throwing out thoughts- how about a cavalier archetype based upon the elementalist shifter?
You would trade out the challenge damage in return for the various elemental damages of elemental strike. Of course, the trade of clean untyped damage for the shaky elemental damage might need a trade off- maybe various effects on a crit? (blind for 1 round, stun, etc)
You could then trade out the mount and charge stuff for some kind of elemental servant. Maybe those 4 eidolons from the elemental ally archetype for druids (4 eidolons without evo points are not a great trade for wildshape, but they are just right as intelligent flank buddies you get by trading an animal companion and some nice charge stuff you are not using). Maybe add banner onto that trade as well.
This could make a nice little 'elemental knight' build.
Another thing to note, would Thousand Faces even function with an oozemorph? Fluidic Form already gives them an Alter Self type ability for a super limited amount of time per day.
It would, it just wouldn't do much because by that point the Oozemorph would have enough time to use Alter Self more or less at-will.
Another thing to note, would Thousand Faces even function with an oozemorph? Fluidic Form already gives them an Alter Self type ability for a super limited amount of time per day.
Point....however I am currently more concerned that my Oozemorph is completely cut off from any equipment/magic items other than Ioun Stones for it's entire career.
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I'm not sure where the disconnect is....but their seems to be an inherent resistance on this specific product, specifically to bring it on line with the quality I have come to expect from Paizo and it's design team.I'm not the least bit interested on speculating why...or spreading rumors as to how it's happened.
But I will say this is not what I expect based on past performance.
I understand and appreciate their efforts so far.
At the same time.....I am not going to "call it good" and give up with a concept when I know they can do so much better ;)
Well, I've left this thread for a few months after saying this class was garbage, but you've been here the whole time, so I call BS on you not being excited about this right now. I'm back here because I'm pleasantly amazed and surprised Paizo is taking a second look at this even. That speaks volumes about them. That's my opinion, but I think telling everyone "No guys, it's gonna suck... LISTEN TO ME!!!" is a bit moot at this point.
We know you care a lot about the class. Just have a little faith in your fellow nerdists who work in this field trying to bring you something better! ;)
Halfing shifter going grizzly on someone's ass? nuff said. I'm in.
Another thing to note, would Thousand Faces even function with an oozemorph? Fluidic Form already gives them an Alter Self type ability for a super limited amount of time per day.It would, it just wouldn't do much because by that point the Oozemorph would have enough time to use Alter Self more or less at-will.
At 18th level you'd get 9 uses of your alter self ability, which isn't quite at will. I'm not saying there are a lot of times you'd want to impersonate 9 different people in a day, but it'll probably happen to somebody sooner or later.
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Man, nevermind the whole oathbreaker thing, the fact that any other polymorph effect you do that isn't fludic form causes you to lose your features of being an ooze morph.
Its like having an archtype called Banshee that screams non stop, but can stop for one hour a day.
I've heard rumors that it was purposefully designed to be bad. Makes me wonder how much more martial garbage is out there that is designed to just take up space in books and be piles of refuge.
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I'm not sure where the disconnect is....but their seems to be an inherent resistance on this specific product, specifically to bring it on line with the quality I have come to expect from Paizo and it's design team.I'm not the least bit interested on speculating why...or spreading rumors as to how it's happened.
But I will say this is not what I expect based on past performance.
I understand and appreciate their efforts so far.
At the same time.....I am not going to "call it good" and give up with a concept when I know they can do so much better ;)
Well, I've left this thread for a few months after saying this class was garbage, but you've been here the whole time, so I call BS on you not being excited about this right now.
We know you care a lot about the class. Just have a little faith in your fellow nerdists who work in this field trying to bring you something better! ;)
Halfing shifter going grizzly on someone's ass? nuff said. I'm in.
I didn't say they had not done better. The fixes have been a step in the right direction. Do they make me want to play the class ?....no.
They are far to little....far to late (in the progression of the class).
My opinion.
Feel free to voice your opinion.....your entitled to it.
But don't for a minute think you have a right to shut down mine ;)
EDIT: And feel free to call BS on whatever you want. I'm not concerned at all ;)
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I've heard rumors that it was purposefully designed to be bad. Makes me wonder how much more martial garbage is out there that is designed to just take up space in books and be piles of refuge.
That's not a rumor. The author said they wrote it so being an ooze was punishing. The ENTIRE point of the archetype is to NOT be an ooze...
I'm partially happy with the Capstone, but why do you get permanent minor forms so late.
Personally I think you should get permanent minor forms like so
This would help the shifter with qualifying for feats and add more flexibility to it.Chimeric aspect:
At 9th level, when a shifter uses her shifter aspect ability to take on a minor form, she can choose two aspects and assume the minor form of each aspect, in addition, the shifter may use a single minor form at will.Greater Chimeric aspect:
At 14th level, when a shifter uses her shifter aspect ability to take on a minor form, she can choose up to three aspects and assume the minor form of each aspect, in addition the shifter may use 2 minor forms at will as if using Chimeric Aspect.
Personally, I think something that'd seriously add oomph to the class while also giving it something utterly unique would be the ability to select two or three animals and take traits from all of them at once when wild shaping. they already get a chimeric base aspect; what about wild shaping? It's in tune with a fair amount of what the class does already, and fits in with what shapeshifting is described as in tribal societies; I can't remember where it's from, but I remember some kind of spirit guide wolf thing that was a wolf with stag horns and the limbs of a bear.
Would give wildshapers something big and kickass to look forward to if that was part of chimeric aspect, which as it stands right now is kind of subpar overall, even for people who want to remain in (mostly) human shape for a fight (though your suggested changes are a great step in the right direction). Attaching the animals you get when wildshaping to the ones you get from your chimeric aspect would make for a sensible addition, even if they drain additional wildshape hours per day while active. Maybe an extra one per hour for each animal you add in?
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That's not a rumor. The author said they wrote it so being an ooze was punishing. The ENTIRE point of the archetype is to NOT be an ooze...
Again.....my opinion....but I think that comment (which I was there for) is being over exaggerated.
No designer attempts to make a crippling archetype (there is no point in doing so).
They were attempting to balance things...and make it difficult at lower levels.....which they may have gone overboard on......and just didn't think all of the game elements all the way through.
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Another thing to note, would Thousand Faces even function with an oozemorph? Fluidic Form already gives them an Alter Self type ability for a super limited amount of time per day.Point....however I am currently more concerned that my Oozemorph is completely cut off from any equipment/magic items other than Ioun Stones for it's entire career.
I too am worried about this, but the thought crossed my mind and I figured I'd get at least one thing answered while the iron's hot. I doubt they will do much to help an oozemorph along, but I can hope. Meanwhile I will keep plugging along with my effectively npc ooze that doesn't do much.
I too am worried about this, but the thought crossed my mind and I figured I'd get at least one thing answered while the iron's hot. I doubt they will do much to help an oozemorph along, but I can hope. Meanwhile I will keep plugging along with my effectively npc ooze that doesn't do much.Another thing to note, would Thousand Faces even function with an oozemorph? Fluidic Form already gives them an Alter Self type ability for a super limited amount of time per day.Point....however I am currently more concerned that my Oozemorph is completely cut off from any equipment/magic items other than Ioun Stones for it's entire career.
They will either address the problems (as they slowly have) or scrap the entire book.
Like it or not the Shifter was the main selling point on this book.
I suppose they could just say screw it and leave it as is....but I find that really unlikely....