If you could cast one spell per level in real life what would you pick?

[Isonaroc]

Avoron wrote:

Isonaroc wrote:

Uh, no, you really couldn't get 7 billion simulacra in three days. Granted, there's no GM to consult, but I highly doubt that creating billions of simulacra is covered by the powerful request clause. And your simulacra would be highly unlikely to be able to use miracle themselves to self replicate (it's hard to say, because this gets into that whole abstraction thing again).

Uh, yeah, you really could get the simulacra, no special requests necessary. Each simulacrum has half of your class levels in commoner or expert, but all of its abilities not based on class level remain exactly the same. Your simulacra can absolutely use miracle themselves. So you can cast miracle to duplicate simulacrum in less than six seconds, then your simulacrum can make another simulacrum, and that simulacrum can make another. So at the end of day one you'll have 14,400 simulacra. The next day, each of you get your miracles back, so you can each create a new chain of 14,400 simulacra, leaving you with around 207,360,000. On day three you can just repeat the process to get seven billion or far more.

Even if they could still use miracle, which, sure, let's just say they can, you would still have to order each one to cast miracle, and then you would have to order your simulacra to order their simulacra (because their simulacra would not be under your direct control), and then you'd have to order your simulacra to order their simulacra to order their simulacra. And that's assuming simulcra are capable of actually creating simulacra and commanding said simulacra as they aren't actually capable of thought. Has there ever been any rules hammered out regarding simulacra creating simulacra? It's possible that would run afoul of the "cannot become stronger" clause, hard to say because simulacrum is really poorly designed. Regardless, for every level you go down you add in another level of communication that is necessary. That makes things way more complicated

Quote:

Isonaroc wrote:

Someone will inevitably disagree. Strenuously.

Sure, just like plenty of people strenuously disagree with the mosquitoes. The difference being that those people get mercilessly slaughtered.

Yeah, it's not like a war would throw a wrench into the whole "saving lives" thing.

[Felyndiira]

I assume that I'm the only person with these powers, so I don't have to defend myself against the other super-powered wizards that dominated powerful heads-of-states and is on the prowl to eliminate potential rivals to their iron fist.

I also assume that I don't want flashy powers that draw too much attention, since the intelligence agencies if the world might not take too kindly to solar summonings in the middle of the US capital.

0: Prestidigitation
1: Endure Elements
2: Invisibility
3: Create Food and Water
4: Dominate Person
5: Fabricate
6: Heal
7: Greater Teleport
8: Moment of Prescience
9: Shapechange

Am I really the only person who took dominate? ...I guess I'm a horrible person.

[Sauce987654321]

Isonaroc wrote:

JDLPF wrote:

0th - Stabilize

A four year old boy falls off his bike, not wearing a helmet, and inside his brain an artery tears open. A father of two, driving home late at night, has an accident and his pelvis is crushed on impact, pinning him inside the wreck. A pregnant woman is the victim of domestic abuse, arriving in an emergency room as blood soaks the towel she holds between her legs.

This spell stops death. Keep your Prestidigitation.

No, it doesn't stop death. It stops a very ill defined specific form of death that doesn't translate well to the real world. It wouldn't do a thing to stop someone from bleeding to death, because stabilize doesn't stop bleeding. This is why I stayed away from spells that deal with abstractions like DR and HP, because the things the game is simulating don't correlate to the simulations.

What you're assuming is a bleed effect is really just modeled as the dying condition, where you continue to take damage until you stabilize. If being sent into the dying condition from piercing, slashing, or even falling damage can be stabilized from from the Stabilize spell just fine, then it should have no issue working as written in this hypothetical scenario.

If you believe that his scenario should cause a bleed condition, that's fine, but this simply does not match up to the game's mechanics.

[Avoron]

Isonaroc wrote:

Even if they could still use miracle, which, sure, let's just say they can, you would still have to order each one to cast miracle, and then you would have to order your simulacra to order their simulacra (because their simulacra would not be under your direct control), and then you'd have to order your simulacra to order their simulacra to order their simulacra.

All you've got to do is order your simulacrum to order their simulacrum to obey all orders from you, and to pass this order down to their simulacra ad infinitum. Then you can command them all at once.

Isonaroc wrote:

And that's assuming simulcra are capable of actually creating simulacra and commanding said simulacra as they aren't actually capable of thought.

Huh? Why on earth wouldn't they be capable of thought? They have exactly the same mental ability scores as you do.

Isonaroc wrote:

Avoron wrote:

Isonaroc wrote:

Someone will inevitably disagree. Strenuously.

Sure, just like plenty of people strenuously disagree with the mosquitoes. The difference being that those people get mercilessly slaughtered.

Yeah, it's not like a war would throw a wrench into the whole "saving lives" thing.

What are you talking about? I'm saying that the people who disagree with the mosquitoes get mercilessly slaughtered in the status quo, as malaria-carrying mosquitoes aren't exactly known for their mercy. In this world full of resurrection magic, no one stays dead unless they want to.

[Coidzor]

Isonaroc wrote:

Avoron wrote:

Stuff about simulacrum

Uh, no, you really couldn't get 7 billion simulacra in three days. Granted, there's no GM to consult, but I highly doubt that creating billions of simulacra is covered by the powerful request clause. And your simulacra would be highly unlikely to be able to use miracle themselves to self replicate (it's hard to say, because this gets into that whole abstraction thing again).

If you use Miracle to make a Simulacrum and simulacra of you inherit Miracle as an SLA, then you can start a chain that leads to 14,400 simulacra being made in a 24 hour period at full optimization. Then each existing simulacra can then start another chain of 14,400, each. So Day 1 would yield ~14,400 simulacra + 1 original. Then Day 2 would yield something like 207,388,800 simulacra + 1 original, but only if SLAs refreshed immediately at the date change and the last simulacra in a chain was able to be created AND create a new simulacra in the same round. Then Day 3 would yield somewhere in the vicinity of 2,986,606,123,201. So billions in 3 days, yes, 7 billion+, no.

Of course, after 4 days of simulacra chaining it gets truly ridonkulous. Even if you lost 20% efficiency so each chain only yielded an average of 11520 simulacra, you'd still end up with quadrillions. Enough to cover about 2.5 million Rhode Islands if you smooshed them all together. By my calculations, there's only about 162,459.75 Rhode Islands of surface on Earth.

(80% of 14400 is 11520. So 1 > 11521 > 132,733,441 > 1,529,221,973,761 > 17,618,166,400,000,000)

On the other hand, if Simulacra don't inherit the SLAs, then they're useless, worse than useless if one burned an SLA slot on Simulacrum instead of using Wish or Miracle. If they inherit level 5 and lower SLAs with a CL 10, then they may or may not be worse than just having invested in building to get and control Planetars.

Isonaroc wrote:

Even if they could still use miracle, which, sure, let's just say they can, you would still have to order each one to cast miracle, and then you would have to order your simulacra to order their simulacra (because their simulacra would not be under your direct control), and then you'd have to order your simulacra to order their simulacra to order their simulacra. And that's assuming simulcra are capable of actually creating simulacra and commanding said simulacra as they aren't actually capable of thought. Has there ever been any rules hammered out regarding simulacra creating simulacra? It's possible that would run afoul of the "cannot become stronger" clause, hard to say because simulacrum is really poorly designed. Regardless, for every level you go down you add in another level of communication that is necessary. That makes things way more complicated...

Yes, it would be better to take an extra day or two and make a set of simulacra lieutenants. You have the time, after all.

Those simulacra lieutenants would then be able to go on and have enough simulacra, even taking the time to make staging areas and order them all to ultimately be loyal to you, the original.

Also, the kind of Wizard War that would be possible could preclude mass casualties and even have no casualties at all. It all depends on where and how.

In the most inefficient case, you could drown war zones, command centers, launch sites, etc. in wave after wave of simulacra, until every combatant, commander, and support staff was exhausted and buried in a sea of bodies.

Plus, even if you killed, you have the capability to bring back everyone with no lasting ill effects.

Also, no, having command of other creatures is obviously not what the clause about not being able to become stronger is talking about.

[Dilvias]

Can I use the Summoner's list? Because I want to use the Summoner's list.

[Avoron]

Coidzor wrote:

Then Day 3 would yield somewhere in the vicinity of 2,986,606,123,201. So billions in 3 days, yes, 7 billion+, no.

Take another look at that number. That's more than 2.9 trillion.

[The Sideromancer]

Avoron wrote:

Coidzor wrote:

Then Day 3 would yield somewhere in the vicinity of 2,986,606,123,201. So billions in 3 days, yes, 7 billion+, no.

Take another look at that number. That's more than 2.9 trillion.

That depends on the meaning of billion. Sometimes a billion is a thousand million (10^9) and a trillion is 10^12 and so on. However, sometimes a billion is a million million (10^12) and a trillion is 10^18. Some languages like French have specific words for 10^9 and 10^15 that fill the gap of "thousand millions" and "thousand billions" (milliard and billiard respectively). As such, the number listed is either about three trillion or about three billion, depending on whose definitions we're using.

This is why I use scientific notation for anything above 10^8 (also, speed of light is 3*10^8 m/s, which is much easier than "three hundred million").

[Coidzor]

The Sideromancer wrote:

Avoron wrote:

Coidzor wrote:

Then Day 3 would yield somewhere in the vicinity of 2,986,606,123,201. So billions in 3 days, yes, 7 billion+, no.

Take another look at that number. That's more than 2.9 trillion.

That depends on the meaning of billion. Sometimes a billion is a thousand million (10^9) and a trillion is 10^12 and so on. However, sometimes a billion is a million million (10^12) and a trillion is 10^18. Some languages like French have specific words for 10^9 and 10^15 that fill the gap of "thousand millions" and "thousand billions" (milliard and billiard respectively). As such, the number listed is either about three trillion or about three billion, depending on whose definitions we're using.

This is why I use scientific notation for anything above 10^8 (also, speed of light is 3*10^8 m/s, which is much easier than "three hundred million").

Mostly I just lost track of the number of commas. There is such a thing as too many commas, alas.

[Avoron]

The Sideromancer wrote:

Avoron wrote:

Coidzor wrote:

Then Day 3 would yield somewhere in the vicinity of 2,986,606,123,201. So billions in 3 days, yes, 7 billion+, no.

Take another look at that number. That's more than 2.9 trillion.

That depends on the meaning of billion. Sometimes a billion is a thousand million (10^9) and a trillion is 10^12 and so on. However, sometimes a billion is a million million (10^12) and a trillion is 10^18. Some languages like French have specific words for 10^9 and 10^15 that fill the gap of "thousand millions" and "thousand billions" (milliard and billiard respectively). As such, the number listed is either about three trillion or about three billion, depending on whose definitions we're using.

This is why I use scientific notation for anything above 10^8 (also, speed of light is 3*10^8 m/s, which is much easier than "three hundred million").

That's entirely sensible, but note that the seven billion threshold was originally set up as "the number of castings you'd need to reincarnate the entire population of earth," which is only about 7.6 * 10^9, compared to the 2.9 * 10^12 simulacra available by the third day.

[TiwazBlackhand]

Assumption, I have to stick to one class list. I pick Wizard.

0. Prestidigitaion - As father of a newborn, if I could have ONE SPELL period, being able to clean the diaper by magic at will POOF done in under 6 seconds, I would take over anything...

1. Feather Fall

2. Darkvision

3. Tongues

4. Stoneskin

5. Overland Flight

6. Form of the Dragon I

7. Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion

8. Form of the Dragon III

9. Teleportation Circle

[Reduxist]

Do they all have to be from the same class or can it be in general?

[Volkard Abendroth]

*Thelith wrote:

Except you only get 2 or 3 heals /day and a few regenerates.

You can help 10x more people by having more options. Why waste a heal when you can use a cure spell.

There is not a chance in hell I would advertise what I could do.

Let the world know, and you will never live a life of freedom again. Best case scenario, you live surrounded by armed guards, for your own protection. Worst case scenario, live the rest of your life under armed guard in a government or corporate facility.

[Samy]

0 Stabilize
1 Unseen Servant -- for chores
2 Levitate -- for kicks
3 Remove Disease -- for sickness
4 Reincarnate -- for old age
5 Planetary Adaptation -- for space exploration
6 Contingency -- in case of self-death
7 Greater Teleport -- for travel
8 Heightened Plane Shift -- for interplanetary transport
9 True Resurrection -- for death

I would get a kick out of TRing all sorts of people who didn't die of old age. We could finally solve the mystery of Jimmy Hoffa. I could sell Hitler to Israel. Bring back Princess Di, Carrie Fisher... Bill Gates would probably pay fairly well for his mother...

[Asmodeus' Advocate]

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Let the world know, and you will never live a life of freedom again. Best case scenario, you live surrounded by armed guards, for your own protection. Worst case scenario, live the rest of your life under armed guard in a government or corporate facility.

Do you really mean that? If you had the power to, when you see something evil, to stop it, that you wouldn't? If you had the power to topple dictatorships and fill the power vacuum, if you had the power to cure all the diseases that plague humanity, if you had the power to Geas/Quest people who would otherwise be shooting each other or flying airplanes into buildings, if easy as saying the words you could free all of the people being trafficked around the world, if you could bring your family and your friends back from the effing grave and tell them how much you've missed them, if you had the power to usher in an era of peace and prosperity that will never end, if you had the power to become a singleton super intelligence that is friendly to humanity, then you wouldn't advertise what you could do?

It's true, you wouldn't live a life of freedom. There wouldn't be a government in the world that could hold you, and no armed guards could possibly add to your perfect safety, but you wouldn't be free. Every moment would be spent casting your spells or ruling the people, your life wouldn't be yours any more.

But you wouldn't do it?

I know I would.

[Vrog Skyreaver]

0: Summon Instrument
1: Endure Elements
2: Heroism
3: Bestow Curse
4: Dimension Door
5: Overland Flight
6: Heal
7: Greater Teleport
8: Stormbolts
9: Miracle

[Volkard Abendroth]

Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:

Do you really mean that? If you had the power to, when you see something evil, to stop it, that you wouldn't? If you had the power to topple dictatorships and fill the power vacuum, if you had the power to cure all the diseases that plague humanity, if you had the power to Geas/Quest people who would otherwise be shooting each other or flying airplanes into buildings, if easy as saying the words you could free all of the people being trafficked around the world, if you could bring your family and your friends back from the effing grave and tell them how much you've missed them, if you had the power to usher in an era of peace and prosperity that will never end, if you had the power to become a singleton super intelligence that is friendly to humanity, then you wouldn't advertise what you could do?

It's true, you wouldn't live a life of freedom. There wouldn't be a government in the world that could hold you, and no armed guards could possibly add to your perfect safety, but you wouldn't be free. Every moment would be spent casting your spells or ruling the people, your life wouldn't be yours any more.

But you wouldn't do it?

I know I would.

Would I play god? Dictate Life and death? Eliminate free will in the name of peace?

No, I would not. Humanity would never know my name or know what I could do. I would live a (very) long life, watching empires rise and fall by their own hand.

[Shinigami02]

Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Let the world know, and you will never live a life of freedom again. Best case scenario, you live surrounded by armed guards, for your own protection. Worst case scenario, live the rest of your life under armed guard in a government or corporate facility.

Do you really mean that? If you had the power to, when you see something evil, to stop it, that you wouldn't? If you had the power to topple dictatorships and fill the power vacuum, if you had the power to cure all the diseases that plague humanity, if you had the power to Geas/Quest people who would otherwise be shooting each other or flying airplanes into buildings, if easy as saying the words you could free all of the people being trafficked around the world, if you could bring your family and your friends back from the effing grave and tell them how much you've missed them, if you had the power to usher in an era of peace and prosperity that will never end, if you had the power to become a singleton super intelligence that is friendly to humanity, then you wouldn't advertise what you could do?

It's true, you wouldn't live a life of freedom. There wouldn't be a government in the world that could hold you, and no armed guards could possibly add to your perfect safety, but you wouldn't be free. Every moment would be spent casting your spells or ruling the people, your life wouldn't be yours any more.

But you wouldn't do it?

I know I would.

You, my friend, are a good person. Which makes your username a bit ironic. Just gonna say right now though, I am not a good person. I make no claims to be a good person. If anything I'm a bit of a selfish A-hole. So no, I wouldn't use my powers to help the world. In fact, the only person I'm interested in helping is myself. To that end...

My list, working under the assumptions it can be spread across multiple lists, all spells are 1/day, CL at least 17, and all components still matter:

0: Mending
1: Cure Light Wounds
2: Minor Image
3: Geas, Lesser
4: Mass Charm Person
5: Overland Flight
6: Summon Laborers
7: Mage's Magnificent Mansion
8: Polymorph Any Object
9: Interplanetary Teleport

A number of my spells are designed to get me things, primarily levels 2-4. I am not above using mind-control and forced friendliness to make my way into places. My cantrip is designed with the idea of using it for a profit in mind. Levels 1, 5, 7, and 9 are strictly for personal use, and 6 basically is too (I'm lazy enough I would gladly have a set of ghostly laborers to do whatever I want for me). 8... is mostly for playing around with my own body (Human > different Human should have Permanent-until-new-cast duration) though I'm not above turning someone who pissed me off into a newt.

[Avoron]

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Would I play god? Dictate Life and death? Eliminate free will in the name of peace?

No, I would not.

Yeah, right, because humans currently have so much freedom when it comes to life or death. That's why cancer cells conduct an opinion survey before deciding whether or not to kill you, so they can make sure your preferences are respected.

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Humanity would never know my name or know what I could do. I would live a (very) long life, watching empires rise and fall by their own hand.

Sure, just sit by and watch empires rise and fall, watch millions of people suffer and die knowing that you had the power to stop it. Nothing wrong with that, right?

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

As we seem to be moving into moral dilemma good/evil access discussions I'll say this.

No matter how much power you have you'll still be limited. Far less limited than we magic-less human meat-sacks, but you'll still have limitations. Even the stat-less Pathfinder Gods have their limitations. Personally, I see this as a good thing.

For perspective I was an EMT. I have literally watched people (plural) die. I say this not to be melodramatic, but to try to impart that I know a little bit about doing everything right and still being powerless. Sometimes how good/smart/brilliant/prepared you are it amounts to very little. Sometimes things happen and there's nothing anyone could have done. Being able to literally move mountains may or may not be able to solve a particular situation. Acknowledging this on an intrinsic level is shockingly cathartic.

Acknowledging this my spell selection would be selfish immortality venues and other freedom-enhancing/life enjoyment spells. Teleportation, magnificent mansion, etc.

That being said, if I had the right spells to help prevent a catastrophe I would do my best to help. I'd be the first one on the front lines of disaster doing as much as I could to save lives. However, if I didn't see a catastrophe, didn't know to help, or was simply too late I wouldn't beat myself up about it. Despite our newfound power we're still only human, or close enough.

I imagine this perspective would increase as the immortal years went by.

My 2C. Thanks for reading.

[Coidzor]

The main problem with becoming God-Emperor is still less ethical and moral than it is logistical. Even with an arbitrarily large number of magic minions, there's still a limitation in awareness and one would have to choose where to put one's focus.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Coidzor wrote:

The main problem with becoming God-Emperor is still less ethical and moral than it is logistical. Even with an arbitrarily large number of magic minions, there's still a limitation in awareness and one would have to choose where to put one's focus.

That too. Logistics are a limitation as Much as anything.

[Asmodeus' Advocate]

I think you underestimate your arbitrarily large minion force. Keep in mind, the simulacrum are just as smart as you are. As long as you don’t feel the need to personally micromanage, you could easily have a minion assigned to every person on earth, a guardian angel.

Commanding them all when you have an important mass order is easy enough, you'd just use the internet.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

I think you're still not grasping the scope of logistics involved. There's over 7 billion people on this planet. A number which will rapidly start inflating once you decide to "save everyone from death". The economy will tank for a good while once the entire medical sector is rendered obsolete. All those simulacrum will need food and shelter of their own as well. Then you're going to have to deal with the people who object to your way of thinking. Maybe they don't want a 'guardian angel' following them around. Maybe enough of them band together and start taking out any of your simulacrum they see because of the disruption everything is causing. At what point do you accidentally end up changing from a good samaritan to a well meaning tyrant?

[Samy]

This is why I just decide to keep myself alive and just go explore Mars.

[Asmodeus' Advocate]

Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

I think you're still not grasping the scope of logistics involved. There's over 7 billion people on this planet. A number which will rapidly start inflating once you decide to "save everyone from death".

There are over seven billion simulacrum. I understand full well the scope, at least as far as anyone can comprehend numbers of that scale. Which is to say, I don't understand the scope at all. Still, it's nothing but subtraction: subtract the number of copies of yourself you can have three days in from the number of people that exist or existed recently enough to resurrect, and you have an incredibly large negative number. (Or rather, a very small one.) This convinces me that of all the things this hypothetical scenario lacks, raw manpower is certainly not a problem.

Simulacrum can feed themselves, and have thermodynamicly impossible spells left over. Shelter is as easy as endure elements. If you have nine levels of spells, the question isn't what you can do, it's how you can do it. If the scenario tries your suspension of disbelief, try rephrasing the OP as "If you became omnipotent, what minor abilities that you wouldn't ever use would you like as well?"

Quote:

The economy will tank for a good while once the entire medical sector is rendered obsolete.

Why does that matter at all? What would people even use money for, if governments persisted in printing it? Food is free, mansions are free, computers are free, Linux is free. Medicine is free, immortality is free. The economy wouldn't just tank, it would be gone. No more. Finished. Everyone would be equal, at a higher standard of living than anyone is now. What's the problem with that?

Quote:

Then you're going to have to deal with the people who object to your way of thinking. Maybe they don't want a 'guardian angel' following them around. Maybe enough of them band together and start taking out any of your simulacrum they see because of the disruption everything is causing. At what point do you accidentally end up changing from a good samaritan to a well meaning tyrant?

Now, that is a well thought out question. To begin with, simulacrum wouldn't follow people around. Each one is a copy of me, and I find that idea both incredibly boring and disturbing, needless invasion of privacy. No, the guardian angels would be on speed dial, and patrolling the streets.

The simulacrum wouldn't be causing a disruption at all, they wouldn't be doing anything that would lower quality of life for anyone, as touched on above. But, if for some reason people tried to kill a simulacrum, they'd quickly learn that simulacrum are immortal. Remember, each one of them has the spell like abilities of the original, including contingency and emergency force field and wish.

The issue of tyranny, however, is an important one, made more important by the fact that no one could possibly overthrow someone with this power. No outside force could govern. To this end, I wouldn't make any decisions alone. I'd rely heavily on people I know to be wiser than I am, an inner circle of the humanitarians I respect most.

[Samy]

Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:

Why does that matter at all? What would people even use money for, if governments persisted in printing it? Food is free, mansions are free, computers are free, Linux is free. Medicine is free, immortality is free. The economy wouldn't just tank, it would be gone. No more. Finished. Everyone would be equal, at a higher standard of living than anyone is now. What's the problem with that?

Who would make the computers? Would we create a slave race to do the labor?

[Asmodeus' Advocate]

Whut?

Polymorph Any Object. Castable an arbitrarily large number of times every day.

[Samy]

Quote:

This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper

Computers run on copper wires.

Also, I'm a little skeptical that Polymorph Any Object is intended to be able to create high-tech items. If it *can*, then I have a great idea for making money in my next PF campaign:

1) buy scrolls of Polymorph Any Object for 3000gp each
2) use each scroll to create Vortex Gun with buy price of 182000gp
3) sell Vortex Guns for 50% (91000gp), for a total profit of 88000gp per scroll bought
4) PROFIT

Also, once my Iron Gods party reaches lvl 15 and can cast the spell themselves, they can then have every technological object in the Technology Guide for free.

This can't be RAI for the spell.

[Volkard Abendroth]

Samy wrote:

Quote:

This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper

Computers run on copper wires.

The rare-earth metals modern electronics depend on are far more valuable than gold or platinum.

[Asmodeus' Advocate]

Then fabricate. Or use undead gorilla labor. Or constructs. Our bound fiends, if they exist in this by hypothetical scenario. (It isn't like they were doing anything productive anyway.)

If you have ninth level spells, the question isn't what you can do, only how.

And honestly, I don't think any of the above require great stretches of the imagination. It's really hard not to respect the people you're talking to on a forum where you can see the posts other people favorited right there in their profile. So clearly there isn't a lack of imagination here, only a lack to apply it, motivated stopping. You didn't think about the problem for five minutes before declaring it unethical/impossible.

So I have to ask: what is the true objection here? What do you find wrong with this scenario that is very easy to achieve within the strictures of the hypothetical? Why wouldn't you do or advise it?

[Samy]

True objection is that I think utopia is much harder and more complicated to successfully create than most people think, and to highlight that I pointed out just one flaw in the scheme. In truth there are probably thousands of flaws like that.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Assuming that choosing of off multiple lists is allowed, and that I don’t have to worry about others coming after me.

0) Prestitidigitation (Too many uses to go into)
1) Unseen Servant (Slave Labor)
2) Detect Thoughts (Read Minds)
3) Geas, lesser (Using bard list, to control people)
4) Simularcrum, lesser (Create people)
5) Permanency (for Create Demiplane, Greater)
6) Heal (Using cleric list)
7) Limited Wish (Versitility)
8) Planar Ally, Greater (Using cleric list, used for a variety of things , but mainly fetching and carry)
9) Create Demiplane, Greater (Create my own universe)

My Demiplane will have the following features Minor positive Dominant, Timeless, Bountiful with a permanent portal. I retire to my universe and populate it mostly with Simularcrum, but there will be a select few real people. My Simularcurm will also be used as agents to travel to the real world to do anything I want.

[Avoron]

Samy wrote:

True objection is that I think utopia is much harder and more complicated to successfully create than most people think, and to highlight that I pointed out just one flaw in the scheme. In truth there are probably thousands of flaws like that.

In which case, the fundamental question is this: does a problem being hard to solve mean you shouldn't try to solve it?

Or does it just mean you should try even harder?

[Samy]

Avoron wrote:

Samy wrote:

True objection is that I think utopia is much harder and more complicated to successfully create than most people think, and to highlight that I pointed out just one flaw in the scheme. In truth there are probably thousands of flaws like that.

In which case, the fundamental question is this: does a problem being hard to solve mean you shouldn't try to solve it?

Or does it just mean you should try even harder?

It's not binary: you could turn to solving solvable problems. One could argue that solving 100 medium problems creates more net good than trying to solve 1 near-impossible one.

[Avoron]

Samy wrote:

It's not binary: you could turn to solving solvable problems. One could argue that solving 100 medium problems creates more net good than trying to solve 1 near-impossible one.

That's exactly how making a utopia works. You don't just press a button to find the ultimate answer to life, the universe, and everything, you spend days and weeks and years solving hundreds and thousands of problems of all different sizes until the world is a nicer place to live in.

Also, a relative benefit comparison doesn't make sense in the first place because the options aren't mutually exclusive. If you think there are a lot of problems in the world, you can work to solve all of them. It's not like there's only of you, after all.

[Samy]

Point, but I think this is digressing enough from the thread topic that I'm shutting up now.

[Avoron]

Okay, so to get the conversation back on track, let's take a look at what spell choices might be most useful for a caster bent on world-optimization through an arbitrarily large number of simulacra. The most important choice will obviously be wish for the 9th level slot, which can duplicate almost any lower-level spell in the game. But you still have eight more levels of spells to choose from, so you might as well get the most out of the opportunity.

This does mean, though, that the spells you pick need by no means be the most powerful or useful spells the level has to offer. Bringing back the dead, for instance, is one of the most crucial abilities you'll gain, but you probably won't want to actually pick the spells resurrection or cyclic reincarnation when you can have cities full of simulacra using their wishes to duplicate the effects. Same with powerful information-gathering magic like divination, commune, or vision. For that matter, you'd almost never want to take simulacrum itself, because wish can do the job far more quickly and more efficiently.

With that said, here are some spells that might be worth taking in their own right.

0 - mending
Because we live in a world full of important objects, and sometimes those objects break. You'll have a bunch of simulacra in fairly remote locations, and you won't want them to have to waste powerful magic to stay in touch just because they happened to drop their phone.

1 - keep watch
This one amazing spell single-handedly increases each simulacrum's hours of productivity by about 50%. You really don't want these incredibly powerful guardians of humanity making decisions while deprived of sleep, and this gets them all of the benefits of a full night's rest without the opportunity costs. Not to mention all of the logistical difficulties you'll avoid by not needing standard lodging accommodations for your simulacra. It's really a win-win.

2 - augury
I know you can have legions of simulacra duplicating high-level divination magic, but there's still something to be said for giving all of them an 8/day "is this a good idea?" check that has 90% accuracy and only takes a minute to cast.

3 - voluminous vocabulary
If you want your simulacra to be helping people all over the world, it would probably help if they were able to communicate with them.

4 - emergency force sphere
Because the one thing wish can't do is be cast as an immediate action. Sometimes your simulacra are going to be in serious danger, and when that happens they can just pop inside this bubble of force, then safely teleport away. No reason to have the simulacrum replenishing rate be higher than it needs to be.

5 - fabricate
With no material component, you can use this spell to transmute objects out of thin air. Very handy in all sorts of situations, and helpful in the transition to a post-scarcity society.

6 - heal
When you need healing magic, you really need healing magic, and this is the best spell for the job. Since every second you delay means more pain and suffering for the patient, you'll want this to be standard issue on all of your simulacra.

7 - greater teleport
Incredibly convenient for getting all of your simulacra where they need to be when they need to be there, particularly once humanity starts colonizing other planets. Long-ranged transportation pretty much stops becoming an issue.

The 8th level spell will be the most difficult choice by far. The most versatile option is definitely polymorph any object, which can get you pretty much whatever you need at any given time. But it can also be duplicated with wish, and this spell is your one chance to get something that can't. Unfortunately, a lot of the non-wizard spells of this level are looking pretty lackluster. Greater planar ally might be useful if calling outsiders is possible, but it's hard to see how it would accomplish something that a simulacrum couldn't. True prognostication looks lovely at first glance, but the "incredibly cryptic" clause makes me think you might be better off just playing twenty questions with commune instead. Maybe glimpse of the akashic, to get a +20 bonus on pretty much anything that stacks with a wish-duplicated moment of prescience, for when you really need to succeed at something.

Any other suggestions for the 8th level pick? Or any other spell selections that you think would outshine these for a multitude of simulacra?

[Asmodeus' Advocate]

Hmmmm ... perhaps nine lives? Remember, simulacra can't be resurrected, so their safety is of utmost importance. That and force sphere should keep most of them safe, hopefully. Until probability catches up to them at some point in eternity.

Is it ethical to create simulacra, knowing that they'll eventually die? On principles of utilitarianism, I'd think so. If they're copies of me, they'd understand.

If the GM allows it, paragon surge is likely the spell you'd be imitating with wish the most frequently, so having it another time each day would be helpful. And we should pick some kind of spell to resolve fights, instead of just running away, in case someone else is in danger. Maybe sleep?

[Rogar Stonebow]

I would be happy with one spell. Awaken...

I would use it on abused animals and give them the ability to take revenge on their abusers.

That and my back yard would be full of intelligent trees.

[Avoron]

Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:

Hmmmm ... perhaps nine lives? Remember, simulacra can't be resurrected, so their safety is of utmost importance. That and force sphere should keep most of them safe, hopefully. Until probability catches up to them at some point in eternity.

Wait, are you sure that simulacra can't be resurrected? They otherwise follow all the rules for the base creature, after all. Their bodies are destroyed, sure, but recreating a destroyed body is explicitly within the purview of a wish.

If they can't be brought back to life, then nine lives is definitely the way to go... being destroyed at zero hp makes them even more fragile than you are, and a lot of those listed conditions can render them entirely unable to function.

Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:

Is it ethical to create simulacra, knowing that they'll eventually die? On principles of utilitarianism, I'd think so. If they're copies of me, they'd understand.

I was following similar logic, yeah. I mean, not only would I understand, I'm pretty sure I would be grateful. After all, I'm currently in the position of being a conscious entity with a probably-finite lifespan, and on the whole, I prefer having been created to the prospect of the alternative. The question of whether it's ethical to create simulacra is actually much easier to resolve than the question of whether it's ethical to have children.

Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:

If the GM allows it, paragon surge is likely the spell you'd be imitating with wish the most frequently, so having it another time each day would be helpful.

As GM, I'd be extremely skeptical about allowing a human to use wish to duplicate paragon surge - it actually has a racial targeting restriction in the "Range" line, not just as a limit on who can cast it. And even if you repeatedly killed yourself until you got reincarnated as a half-elf before you really started mass-producing simulacra, you'd still be coming uncomfortably close to the "cannot increase its levels or abilities" clause of the spell.

More to the point, though, what feats would you actually be taking? You don't have the actual spellcasting needed to take advantage of most of the cool caster tricks, and most other options aren't worth much on top of your low-level commoner/expert chassis.

Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:

And we should pick some kind of spell to resolve fights, instead of just running away, in case someone else is in danger. Maybe sleep?

Meh, in a situation serious enough to require direct intervention I can't really picture myself spending an entire turn to get a ≈50% chance of putting my targets to sleep, when I could be activating my Simulacrumblr app to instantly summon five more simulacra with unused wish spells to that location to geas any attackers into peaceful compliance.

[ryric]

Putting aside some very permissive interpretations of simulacrum, I'd like to point out that most speculative fiction that involves every human having an ultra-intelligent "minder" tends to portray those societies as horrible dystopias, for good reason.

[Vrog Skyreaver]

My above list is predicted on the idea that I am the only person in the world who can cast spells. If there are others, then my list changes considerably:

0: Detect Magic
1: Endure Elements
2: Heroism
3: Dispel Magic
4: Dimension Door
5: Cleanse
6: Antimagic Field
7: Spell Turning
8: Moment of Prescience
9: Akashic Form

[Avoron]

ryric wrote:

Putting aside some very permissive interpretations of simulacrum, I'd like to point out that most speculative fiction that involves every human having an ultra-intelligent "minder" tends to portray those societies as horrible dystopias, for good reason.

Yeah, for a very good reason: because that's the sort of society people are interested in reading about. Speculative fiction is a form of entertainment, and people tend to enjoy stories about plucky heroes struggling against oppressive dystopias a lot more than stories about peaceful and efficient societies where everybody spends their time on the fulfilling and meaningful pursuits of their choice and lives happily ever after.

I mean, there's also a large body of speculative fiction about the dystopian consequences of robots, gene sequencing, and worldwide networks of information. And in reality we use those things to explore the solar system, screen for heritable diseases, and argue about fantasy roleplaying games.

So maybe instead of generalizing from fictional evidence, we should look at some basic historical trends. Human standards of living have been increasing astronomically over the past several centuries, and it's not because we're wisely exercising more restraint over our foolish ambitions. It's because we've been rapidly increasing our ability to influence the world around us, and boy have we been using it.

[ryric]

Avoron wrote:

ryric wrote:

Putting aside some very permissive interpretations of simulacrum, I'd like to point out that most speculative fiction that involves every human having an ultra-intelligent "minder" tends to portray those societies as horrible dystopias, for good reason.

Yeah, for a very good reason: because that's the sort of society people are interested in reading about. Speculative fiction is a form of entertainment, and people tend to enjoy stories about plucky heroes struggling against oppressive dystopias a lot more than stories about peaceful and efficient societies where everybody spends their time on the fulfilling and meaningful pursuits of their choice and lives happily ever after.

I mean, there's also a large body of speculative fiction about the dystopian consequences of robots, gene sequencing, and worldwide networks of information. And in reality we use those things to explore the solar system, screen for heritable diseases, and argue about fantasy roleplaying games.

So maybe instead of generalizing from fictional evidence, we should look at some basic historical trends. Human standards of living have been increasing astronomically over the past several centuries, and it's not because we're wisely exercising more restraint over our foolish ambitions. It's because we've been rapidly increasing our ability to influence the world around us, and boy have we been using it.

While I could conceive of some good consequences, what I see from you is a nightmare world of no privacy, where a self-appointed god-king rules using his endless army of billions of clone slaves. You're talking about using mind control to force people to behave according to your morals. Sure, we can all agree that stopping a murder is good. But what about less clear activities? Can people still eat junk food? Read trashy novels? Is one of your slave clones going to be watching every couple date (or married couples) just in case one of them gets violent? Creepy.

Are you really prepared to spend 24/7 following around one person for your and their entire life? Remember that each simulacrum thinks it's you, it has your desires, ambitions, likes and dislikes. So now you're stuck monitoring someone who loves TV shows, sports, or whatever it is that bores you to tears. Or is your slave clone going to step in and ban everything you find boring? What happens when two of your minions come into conflict because they have different information? Even with a "perfect obedience" chain of command you can have conflict, and your slaves have to have some degree of decision making autonomy - you at the top don't want to be bothered with every request for Jack to have a cookie, even though he's already had two and he probably should stop. They only share memories with their creator at the point of creation, and their experiences after that point will cause their opinions to diverge.

[Asmodeus' Advocate]

Well . . .

something said upthread wrote:

To begin with, simulacrum wouldn't follow people around. Each one is a copy of me, and I find that idea both incredibly boring and disturbing, needless invasion of privacy. No, the guardian angels would be on speed dial, and patrolling the streets.

And while it should have been written "I find that idea both incredibly boring and a disturbing, needless invasion of privacy" the point still stands. The point that everything you just wrote was anticipated and addressed in a neat one sentence format, before you even began talking.

[ryric]

Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:

Well . . .

something said upthread wrote:

To begin with, simulacrum wouldn't follow people around. Each one is a copy of me, and I find that idea both incredibly boring and disturbing, needless invasion of privacy. No, the guardian angels would be on speed dial, and patrolling the streets.

And while it should have been written "I find that idea both incredibly boring and a disturbing, needless invasion of privacy" the point still stands. The point that everything you just wrote was anticipated and addressed in a neat one sentence format, before you even began talking.

Indeed you did address some of my privacy issues.

Except for the part where you use a slave army to exert dictatorial authority without the consent of the governed through force and mind control. Moral philosophers have struggled with issues of morality and ethics for millennia, but now none of that matters because we all have to behave as you believe is moral. Is eating animals okay? What about how they're raised/kept? What about human cloning, or experimental genetic manipulation? There are many unresolved moral questions. Everyone in the world is now (magically!) forced to agree with you on any of these issues that matter to you.

At least "return form the dead" spells can be refused by the target, so death is a true escape from your nightmare world for those who want it.

[Avoron]

Okay, first of all, thanks for approaching this tricky logistical problem with some serious practical questions and concerns. Let's take these one at a time.

ryric wrote:

While I could conceive of some good consequences, what I see from you is a nightmare world of no privacy, where a self-appointed god-king rules using his endless army of billions of clone slaves.

Words matter, so let's be very careful about which ones we use. They're not an army if they don't use violence, and they're not slaves if they share your exact goals.

ryric wrote:

You're talking about using mind control to force people to behave according to your morals.

I'm talking about using mind control in emergency situations to prevent people from inflicting severe physical harm upon others. We currently address such situations with bullets, and the consequences they inflict are much more severe and infinitely more permanent. Which approach would you prefer?

ryric wrote:

But what about less clear activities? Can people still eat junk food? Read trashy novels?

Why on earth shouldn't people eat junk food? We're talking about a world where heart disease and diabetes take six seconds to cure, where anyone can modify their body however they want just by asking.

And remember, the whole point of this is to increase people's freedom to live the lives they want to lead. So people can read trashy novels if they want to, get older if they want to, die if they want to. The only reason you'd need to restrict anyone's freedom is to maintain the freedom of others.

ryric wrote:

Is one of your slave clones going to be watching every couple date (or married couples) just in case one of them gets violent? Creepy.

Are you really prepared to spend 24/7 following around one person for your and their entire life? Remember that each simulacrum thinks it's you, it has your desires, ambitions, likes and dislikes. So now you're stuck monitoring someone who loves TV shows, sports, or whatever it is that bores you to tears. Or is your slave clone going to step in and ban everything you find boring?

See what Asmodeus' Advocate said above. You don't have guardian angels spying on everyone 24/7, you have guardian angels on speed dial, ready to step in the instant they're needed. You don't need to spy on people to know when they'll be in danger, you've got cities full of casters using powerful divinations to find out exactly that.

ryric wrote:

What happens when two of your minions come into conflict because they have different information?

You talk. It's a free action, after all. You sit down and use your words and explain what you think you know and how you think you know it. If there are civilians in immediate danger, you protect them. If not, you can afford to spend five minutes to check your sources and figure out the truth. Think of it like how we resolve disputes in the current world, except everyone knows they all mean well and they're all ready to give each other the benefit of the doubt. Oh, and in a pinch you can literally ask questions to the universe.

ryric wrote:

Even with a "perfect obedience" chain of command you can have conflict, and your slaves have to have some degree of decision making autonomy - you at the top don't want to be bothered with every request for Jack to have a cookie, even though he's already had two and he probably should stop. They only share memories with their creator at the point of creation, and their experiences after that point will cause their opinions to diverge.

You know, you can still delegate a lot of logistical policy decisions to groups of actual humans - they would probably be far more effective than solving them than a multitude of largely homogeneous minds. Your simulacra can just deal with small-scale problems as they come up in the field, while asking for help on anything they're not sure how to handle.

[ryric]

Avoron wrote:

Words matter, so let's be very careful about which ones we use. They're not an army if they don't use violence, and they're not slaves if they share your exact goals.

[

I'm using the word slaves very deliberately. You have a set of billions of sentient creature who are magically incapable of disobeying orders. Those are slaves. Just because they will likely agree with those orders doesn't suddenly give them freedom. They are incapable of acting in dissent.

Using geas/quest to prevent undesirable actions is a form of violence. It does real harm if acted against. People commit murders in broad daylight, with witnesses, knowing the consequences in our modern society. The threat of ability score penalties is not going to deter someone in a moment of passion.

Look, I really get that you have the best intentions here. In fact, the world you imagine would likely be a fun one to run a game in - but that game, for me, would be a game where the PCs play dissidents.

[Avoron]

ryric wrote:

I'm using the word slaves very deliberately. You have a set of billions of sentient creature who are magically incapable of disobeying orders. Those are slaves. Just because they will likely agree with those orders doesn't suddenly give them freedom. They are incapable of acting in dissent.

Okay, if that's the word you want to use, go ahead. What I am asserting is that these simulacra lack the morally relevant qualities of real-world slavery, in that your simulacra are not put through extreme suffering or forced to perform actions against their will. Call it whatever you like, but using a word with negative moral connotations doesn't make it wrong.

ryric wrote:

Using geas/quest to prevent undesirable actions is a form of violence. It does real harm if acted against. People commit murders in broad daylight, with witnesses, knowing the consequences in our modern society. The threat of ability score penalties is not going to deter someone in a moment of passion.

Read the spell description again. The target can't choose to disobey and take the penalties, the penalties are only inflicted if the target is actually prevented from obeying. As for the semantics, sure, I'll concede that geas constitutes a form of violence. It's non-permanent violence, though, and used only to prevent greater harm, which I'd say puts the simulacra more in line with a police force than an army, even putting aside the fact that restraining attackers is a miniscule part of all that they'll be doing.

ryric wrote:

Is eating animals okay?

Let's ask the animals, but I've got an inkling they'd say no. Fortunately, no one has the slightest reason to eat animals, since we can conjure up as much meat as we need from nothing.

ryric wrote:

What about human cloning, or experimental genetic manipulation? There are many unresolved moral questions.

So work to resolve them.

The main thing about this whole issue that it feels like you haven't quite internalized, is that just sitting by and doing nothing isn't a solution. It doesn't absolve you from responsibility. There are still real-world consequences to your inaction, you're just choosing to passively accept the status quo. And the status quo is often terrible.