Fey form spells advice


Advice


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Hello all.

I'm putting this out here so we can get some sort of brainstorming on useful shapes that can be obtained from the fey form line of spells.

Anyone has any idea? I see a lot of useful abilities out there but none that I can pinpoint on a specific fey creature (and I've read kingmaker so I know a couple of them). So it's hard for me to, say, figure out what's the best tiny fey form.

Thanks all


Dotting


Depends on your goals. Since you are asking for tiny forms, I'm assuming this is for a spellcaster primarily. In that case, a Jinkin is tiny, has a higher than average base speed, and can cast Dimension Door without any components or risk of counterspell. Brownie is slower and doesn't have a bite but gets the same benefit with Mirror Image. Pooka can fly and can deliver a poison (over a short range) that can lower a targets wisdom (and charisma), Also has no-component casting for invisibility and suggestion. Going diminutive, Atomie is promising with a fly speed and invisibility. All of these options have DR/cold iron.


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Ooh, I've actually spent a fair amount of time looking into this. Here are my thoughts for Fey Form I... hopefully more to follow later.

Small Fey

Top Options:

Boggart
Not only is this the best small aquatic form for this spell with a 30 ft. swim speed, its natural 10 ft. reach and pair of claw attacks make it one of the best small combat forms as well. If you’re planning on sticking with manufactured weapons in combat, this is the small form for you. Grab a reach weapon and go crazy.

Boggle
This form is pretty mobile, with a 40 ft. land speed and a 20 ft. climb speed, but its main draw is its excellent natural attack routine - the best of any small form available with this spell. Four primary natural weapons will turn any character into force to be reckoned with

Lurker in Light
The best small flying form for the spell, with a 30 ft. fly speed and pair of claw attacks.

Mite
Darkvision and scent give this the best senses of the small forms, with a 20 ft. climb speed thrown in for a bit of added mobility. Try to stay out of bright light.

Nuglub Gremlin
A solid utility/combat form, with darkvision, a 20 ft. climb speed, and a nice bite/claw/claw attack routine.

Redcap
The most mobile small form on land, with its 60 ft. base speed and its boot stomp ability, which gives you a secondary kick attack with free Spring Attack attached. Can also use along with weapons. Stay clear of holy symbols.


Honorable Mentions:

Bagiennik
Another decent aquatic form, with a 30 ft. swim speed and two claw attacks with slightly higher base damage than the boggart’s. It’s hard to beat reach, though.

Biloko
Scent and a bite attack.

Calpina
Alternate flying form, with a 30 ft. fly speed and a bite attack for a bit more damage than the lurker’s claws

Chaneque
A 20 ft. climb speed and 30 ft. fly speed give this pretty decent mobility, although its maneuverability is terrible. Claw attack.

Dvorovoi
Fastest of the small forms with scent, with a 30 ft. speed.

Polevik
This creature’s 1d6 bite is the best single attack of a small form with darkvision.

Shadow Collector
Nice maneuverability with a 40 ft. speed, and two 1d6 claw attacks makes it decent at combat.

Medium Fey

Top Options:

Cold Rider
This form gives you the best single natural attack available with this spell, a 2d6 gore with an extra 1d6 points of cold damage. Darkvision is also nice, and you can use weapons as well. The sonic and shatter vulnerabilities should be obscure enough that you don’t have to worry about them, but make sure to ward against fire damage.

Fossegrim
This is the best medium aquatic form for this level (barring the debatably valid rusalka, see below), with a 30 ft. swim speed and two 2d6 slam attacks. Honestly, though, reach is good enough that it might be worth just going with boggart, strength bonus or no.

Huldra
Best senses for a medium form this level, with darkvision, scent, and a slam and tail attack for good measure.

Ijiraq
Not much in the way of utility powers, but wow are its natural attacks lovely. Four primary natural weapons, a bite/gore/claw/claw routine for 2d6/2d6/2d4/2d4 that places it right up there with the best combat forms yet available.

Kamaitachi
Another excellent combat form - with scent, a 30 ft. flight speed, and four 1d6 claw attacks, this form outshines even turning into a gargoyle with monstrous physique. I would give it my unequivocal recommendation, if we weren’t about to see something even better a few forms down the line.

Leanan Sidhe
Although flight is of course nice, the value of this form depends entirely on how your GM interprets the 1d4 Cha damage touch attack. It’s not listed as an extraordinary or supernatural ability, merely as an ordinary natural weapon, which polymorph spells automatically grant. That said, some GMs will balk at allowing attacks that deal ability damage to qualify under that rule. If allowed, it could be a fun alternative method for taking out foes, preferably with haste to double your output. If not, you’re better off just going with another flying form instead.

Muse
This is another form that hinges on the validity of its natural weapons. The 60 ft. speed is handy, as is its slam attack with a bit of added sonic damage, but both of those pale beside its ranged attack options. Five ranged touch attacks that deal 4d6 sonic damage each - no save, no SR, no DR, just an average of 70 damage per round to pretty much anything in the game. Again, this doesn’t come from any sort of special ability, it’s just the muse’s baseline natural attack routine. If your GM allows you to gain these attacks, use them and become a god of thunder. If not, you can get the same mobility and better natural weapons from a vilderavn or wild hunt hound.

Rabisu
Not only is this the best (clearly valid) combat form you can take with this spell, it’s probably the best combat form for any 3rd level polymorph spell in the game. Better than the gargoyle, better than the popobala, it’s basically the kamaitachi-plus, with scent, a 40 ft. land speed, a 30 ft. fly speed, and an amazing attack routine of five primary natural weapons. You can’t use manufactured weapons, but you really don’t need them. Take this form to become a flying avatar of death. Stay clear of salt mines.

Rusalka
One more form with amazing but debatably-legal natural weapons, this time for an aquatic form with a 30 ft. swim speed. The rusalka has four “tress” attacks that deal 2d6 damage with a 15 ft. reach. It also has a special ability called “tresses,” but that’s listed separately and appears to just give it benefits for grappling and other combat maneuvers - the tresses themselves just look like ordinary natural weapons. If they’re allowed, this is by far the best aquatic form available, and a strong contender for the best overall combat form as well. If not, then you’re better off just turning into a fossegrim or a boggart for your aquatic needs.

Thin Man
A bite attack and two claw attacks, the latter with a 10-ft. reach, make this a solid combat form for fighting with natural weapons. Reach is just really handy.

Vilderavn
This is the most mobile form for the spell, with a 60 ft. land speed and a 30 ft. flight speed. It’s primary bite/claw/claw attacks make nice for fighting with natural weapons, but it should also be your go-to form if you’re planning on sticking with manufactured weapons while polymorphed with this spell.

Wild Hunt Hound
An excellent all-around utility/mobility/combat form, with scent, a 60 ft. movement speed, and a primary bite/claw/claw routine for 2d6/1d8/1d8 damage.


Honorable Mentions:

Alp
This creature’s bite/claw/claw routine gives it the best natural attacks of a form with darkvision. Stay clear of bright light.

Drochtac
Nice bite/claw/claw attacks and a 20 ft. climb speed.

Encantado
Darkvision and a 30 ft. swim speed for all your deep-sea exploration needs. Plus a slam attack.

Fear Eater
General utility form, with darkvision, a 30 ft. climb speed, and a pair of claw attacks for combat.

Glaistig
This is the most mobile non-flier for the spell, with a 60 ft. land speed and a 30 ft. climb speed. Perfect for getting around in close-quarters, or for armored types with terrible Fly modifiers.

Kelpie
A decent form for amphibious mobility, with a 40 ft. land speed, a 30 ft. swim speed, and a two slams for combat.

Svartalfar
This creature’s 40 ft. land speed make it the fastest form with darkvision for this spell. Watch out for bright light - it can make you blind.


Paradozen wrote:
Depends on your goals. Since you are asking for tiny forms, I'm assuming this is for a spellcaster primarily. In that case, a Jinkin is tiny, has a higher than average base speed, and can cast Dimension Door without any components or risk of counterspell. Brownie is slower and doesn't have a bite but gets the same benefit with Mirror Image. Pooka can fly and can deliver a poison (over a short range) that can lower a targets wisdom (and charisma), Also has no-component casting for invisibility and suggestion. Going diminutive, Atomie is promising with a fly speed and invisibility. All of these options have DR/cold iron.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood something but aren't spell like abilities not aquired with polymorph??


Paradozen wrote:
Depends on your goals. Since you are asking for tiny forms, I'm assuming this is for a spellcaster primarily. In that case, a Jinkin is tiny, has a higher than average base speed, and can cast Dimension Door without any components or risk of counterspell. Brownie is slower and doesn't have a bite but gets the same benefit with Mirror Image. Pooka can fly and can deliver a poison (over a short range) that can lower a targets wisdom (and charisma), Also has no-component casting for invisibility and suggestion. Going diminutive, Atomie is promising with a fly speed and invisibility. All of these options have DR/cold iron.

Freaking awesome, you pointed out some really fun monsters that I'll try out at one point (the muse!!! Omg!!). I'd love to hear your take on larger or smaller forms.

As for goals, my main goal is to get a thread with fun ideas in it for people who read this, but also a player in my party is a level 16 bard who just took weapon finesse and an agile weapon for a bit of melee and we're looking at fey form scrolls to add to her Dex in order to have her be a tiny deadly fighter.


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AlastarOG wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
Depends on your goals. Since you are asking for tiny forms, I'm assuming this is for a spellcaster primarily. In that case, a Jinkin is tiny, has a higher than average base speed, and can cast Dimension Door without any components or risk of counterspell. Brownie is slower and doesn't have a bite but gets the same benefit with Mirror Image. Pooka can fly and can deliver a poison (over a short range) that can lower a targets wisdom (and charisma), Also has no-component casting for invisibility and suggestion. Going diminutive, Atomie is promising with a fly speed and invisibility. All of these options have DR/cold iron.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood something but aren't spell like abilities not aquired with polymorph??

You don't get the spell like ability, but you do get to cast the spell (assuming you can normally cast the spell) without verbal or somatic components.


I’m unaware of that rule. Can you site a source?


Cuup wrote:
I’m unaware of that rule. Can you site a source?

found it; it’s in the spell’s description. Case closed :)


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One thing that I found extremely interesting about Fey Form is it is only the second shapechanging spell available to a Witch, the other being Vermin Form. Fey form is clearly more potent, as it allows you to keep your gear, and chosing forms properly, your hands/speaking to cast spells, as well as access to more special abilities...


pad300 wrote:
One thing that I found extremely interesting about Fey Form is it is only the second shapechanging spell available to a Witch, the other being Vermin Form. Fey form is clearly more potent, as it allows you to keep your gear, and chosing forms properly, your hands/speaking to cast spells, as well as access to more special abilities...

It's even more useful for shamans, who not only get the spell at a lower level, but also have a better overall chassis for polymorphed combat with higher HP and BAB and the ability to wear armor. Both witches and shamans can also cast the spell on their familiars to turn them into powerful combatants - or even grab Improved Spell sharing and a valet familiar to get twice the benefit from the spell.

It's also really interesting to note that the fey form spells also show up on the druid spell list. And yeah, I know what you're thinking, druids have wild shape, right? But wild shape doesn’t work on animal companions. Wild shape doesn’t let you keep you gear. Several worthwhile archetypes give up wild shape and would still get a lot out of polymorphing - nature fang druids in particular would benefit immensely, as they can use their studied target to boost not only their attack and damage with their natural weapons, but also the DCs of the abilities they gain.

What's more, the spell being on the druid list means that hunters can cast it as well - using Improved Spell Sharing to turn themselves and their companions into fey killing machines.


Avoron wrote:
pad300 wrote:
One thing that I found extremely interesting about Fey Form is it is only the second shapechanging spell available to a Witch, the other being Vermin Form. Fey form is clearly more potent, as it allows you to keep your gear, and chosing forms properly, your hands/speaking to cast spells, as well as access to more special abilities...

It's even more useful for shamans, who not only get the spell at a lower level, but also have a better overall chassis for polymorphed combat with higher HP and BAB and the ability to wear armor. Both witches and shamans can also cast the spell on their familiars to turn them into powerful combatants - or even grab Improved Spell sharing and a valet familiar to get twice the benefit from the spell.

It's also really interesting to note that the fey form spells also show up on the druid spell list. And yeah, I know what you're thinking, druids have wild shape, right? But wild shape doesn’t work on animal companions. Wild shape doesn’t let you keep you gear. Several worthwhile archetypes give up wild shape and would still get a lot out of polymorphing - nature fang druids in particular would benefit immensely, as they can use their studied target to boost not only their attack and damage with their natural weapons, but also the DCs of the abilities they gain.

What's more, the spell being on the druid list means that hunters can cast it as well - using Improved Spell Sharing to turn themselves and their companions into fey killing machines.

I'd appreciate a construct shape for thematics, but I won't say no to an original clear-winged flyer with a Cold Iron weapon showing the copycats who's boss.


Yeah fey form for druids and shamans is bawss. I hadn't thought about it because my druid currently has shape change so he was going to cast that. But turning my psinosaurus companion into a gargantuan fey of some sort would be incredibly satisfying. I think we need to make some lists: good caster forms, good Familiar/AC forms, good Dex fighter forms or somesuch, and a list for each level of the spell. I think what's harder to navigate is the weird abilities fey get...I'd love to have unearthly grace as an ability with fey form but I guess they saw the problems with that coming a mile away!!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Our 'Fey Forms' list is wonked, allowing several sizes more. Due to a curse, I occasionally became a Fey hill, requiring me to focus upon my actual (Eberron Changeling) form for days. Having my Type switch to 'terrain feature' got old the first time!

As with anything added to an ongoing campaign, the GM and players should work this out. Anytime a spell shows it can be abused, the GM should step in (fabricate and mend). Our crew has a list of several dozen Fey to choose from, but each has the form and not all the fun stuff. The 'girls' of our group created Fey femme fatales far beyond nixies and dryads. Because they vote as a block and always have their husbands' proxies, we wound up with Fey of Undead subtype (Banshees and such) and Undead with the Fey subtype (Barrowmaids and our game's Valkyries). It really tears holes in the MM.


I'm... Not sure what you're talking about????


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Hey, I made a comprehensive Fey Form chart on a Google Doc. I'd love it if someone with better game mastery than me could take it and make a sort of guide out of it - breaking down which forms are better for which role - caster, tank, damage-dealer, animal companion, etc.

II, III, and IV in parentheses indicate features that are only available using higher levels for the Fey Form spell.

LINK


I'll take a crack at it whenever I get the chance :-)

Thanks for taking the time!


Rather than post a new thread I thought that it would be releveant to ask here : is a Fey, Whisperer a valid form for Fey Form II-IV? The Fey Form line of Spells do not contain the limiting wording of 'Corporeal' unlike Undead Anatomy I-III, (Incorporeal Undead are options for IV), yet it might be an error in that Fey are thought of as Corporeal - both the Whisperer and Fey Form I-IV came out in the same year, so perhaps the Creature was not available when the Spell was created. The same could be said of other Polymorph Spells, as they tend to either refer to Corporeal-only Types or list specific options with limtiations to prevent Incorporeal Effects, (e.g., Form of the Alien Dragon I-III -> no Ghost Stride (Su) for Etheric). The Simulacrum Spell also does not state a limitation on the physical ice sculpture becoming an Incorporeal Simulacrum, yet I have seen it stated that the Spell cannot do this, (mostly coming from this post by James Jacobs); the idea is that something physical connot be made Incorporeal.

My thoughts :

* The Transmutation School/Polymorph Sub-school section states that your physical body is transformed into another Creature's form, not that this transformation is limited to Corporeal forms.
* A Belt of Shadowform and the Blink Spell use Transmutation Effects to turn a Corporeal form Incorporeal; the Spells Dust Form, Sonic Form and Undead Anatomy IV use Transmutation (Polymorph) Effects to turn a Corporeal form Incorporeal. This appears to provide precedent for Corporeal Creatures being transmuted into Incorporeal forms. They do, however, specifically call this out.
* One of the original problems I had when researching this was that you do not gain the Incorporeal Subtype, so do not benefit from the Universal Monster Rule Incorporeal (Ex) that way. However, the other Spells mentioned would be prevented the same way if this was the only method.
* I would posit that instead you gain the Incorporeal Condition, (not Subtype), which essentially grants the Universal Monster Rule Incorporeal (Ex) in all but name. This allows for disparity with Simulacrums, (if there is a ruling that they cannot be used for Incorporeal Creatures/you find that cheesy), as a Simulacrum would need to have the Incorporeal Subtype as per the Base Creature, compared to just receiving the Incorporeal Condition.

Does my thinking have huge holes in it or is there any information out there that I have missed? I really like the concept of my Witch becoming Incorporeal, picking up some small buffs, being able to make use of my plans to take Eschew Materials/Silent Spell/Still Spell and have the option of a Silent/Still Dispel Magic, Greater without increasing the Spell Slot. Sorry if this Polymorphing into an Incorporeal form issue has been resolved ages ago, (perhaps discussions on Polymorph Any Object?), I just have not found anything concrete in my searches so far. Any information or clarifications/corrections to my interpretation are welcome!


Blink is an oddball. I wouldn't claim it turns you incorporeal as it really shifts you to the ethereal plane and there are effects associated with that. The shadowform belt uses etherealness but the item specifically call out incorporeal so you're good to go. Both are just the condition (not the monstrous ability).

Polymorphs got nerfed in Pathfinder and part of that was eliminating a change of Type. Type changes created a lot of power problems and that simplification did away with them (crying baby went out with the bathwater).
Now you just look like that form and gain some abilities based on spell level.

A search on AoN turns up

Spells with Incorporeal:
Alaznist's Jinx, Anti-Incorporeal Shell, Antimagic Field, Astral Projection, Baleful Polymorph, Baleful Shadow Transmutation, Baphomet's Blessing, Blade of Light, Bless Weapon, Blink, Calm Spirit, Condensed Ether, Curse of Dragonflies, Cushioning Bands, Daywalker, Death Knell Aura, Greater, Dirge of the Victorious Knights, Dust Form, Echean's Excellent Enclosure, Ectoplasmic Eruption, Ectoplasmic Snare, Entrap Spirit, Etheric Shards, Fleshcurdle, Force Anchor, Ghost Whip, Ghostbane Dirge, Ghostbane Dirge, Mass, Ghostly Disguise, Hobble, Implosion, Incorporeal Chains, Instant Armor, Instant Weapon, Mage Armor, Mage's Sword, Possession, Psychic Image, Purge Spirit, Reloading Hands, Sand Table, Sands of Time, See Beyond, Shadow Body, Shield, Shock Shield, Sonic Form, Soul Transfer, Spectral Hand, Spectral Scout, Sphere of Warding, Spiritual Ally, Spiritual Weapon, Undead Anatomy IV, Wall of Ectoplasm, Wind Wall

Monsters with Incorporeal:
Agmazar the Star Titan(undead=UnD, mythic), Ahmuuth(outsider=Out (extraplanar, psychopomp)), Allip(UnD), Animate Dream(Out), Aoandon(Out), Apostasy Wraith(UnD), Arcanotheign(Out), Astradaemon(Out), Axiomite(Out), Baku Dreamweaver(Mag Beast), Banshee(UnD), Berbalang(UnD), Bhuta(UnD), Birelu(Out), Bugbear Echohusk(UnD), Burning Child(UnD), Cabal Devil (Uniila)(Out), Cairn Linnorm(Dragon), Caller in Darkness(UnD), Cerberi(Out), Chained Spirit(UnD), Cinderghost(UnD), Colour Out of Space(Out), Comozant Wyrd, Croaker, Cruciarus, Danse Macabre, Dapsara, Death Coach, Draugr Pirate, Dreamspawn Hungry Fog, Drocha Swarm, Dunagh, Duppy, Dybbuk, Edimmu, Enlightened Contemplative, Ephemeral Echo, Ether Drake, Fallen, Feargaunt, Festering Spirit, Formless Spawn, Frightful Haunter, Gale Spirit, Geist, Ghaele, Ghost, Ghost Captain, Greater Shadow, Grim Reaper, Havero, Hungry Mist, Ib Shade, Ikelos, Ilzunae, the Gloom Widow, Kelpie’s Wrath, Lampadarius, Lar, Living Cave Painting, Living Rune, Medusa Animus Shade, Mezlan, Mordiggian, Nemhain, Neshmaal, Nightwave, Obambo, Ochre Jelly, Omnipath, Orphne, Othaos, Ozimat, Pelagastr, Petitioner, Pharaonic Guardian, Poltergeist, Possession Devil, Greater (Gidim), Possession Devil, Lesser (Gidim), Prana Ghost, Psychic Stalker, Raiju, Sangoi, Sceaduinar, Shadow, Shadow Demon, Shadow Roper, Shadowfire Fire Elemental (Large), Shadowy Lurker, Shoki, Snowdrifter, Son of Perdition, Spectre, Steward of the Skein, Talmandor, Thremindyr, Umbral Shepherd, Vilkacis, Void Yai, Waldgeist, Witchfire, Wraith, Wretchghost, Xhamen-Dor, Yuki-Onna, Zealot Wraith, Zoog


Are the sound strikes of the muse natural attacks or not? I can't see anything that suggests they're not; if they are attacks you can get with Fey Form what would their range be?


Well, I think we all agree that it's not a weapon attack, and they aren't listed as a supernatural or spell-like ability, so it must be the only attack form that remains, a natural attack. There isn't any special ability defining it's characteristics (unlike for instance the infamous Green Man's vines), that we don't get from the polymorph spell, either. The real problem is the missing range - that's not a polymorph issue, using a muse as a regular monster has the same problem. There's also the issue that ranged natural attacks (or other natural attacks that aren't standard physical ones) don't really have any rules on how they work. For instance, the natural attack rules say that primaries add strength mod, while secondaries add half that. The sound strikes add neither, so where does that leave them?

For balance reasons, as a GM, I'd probably default to "you don't get any attack that has missing information". Every attack that can't be classified as primary or secondary is thus out.

­
Regarding Whisperer:
Well, RAW, you don't get the incorporeal ability, nor the subtype. You basically turn into a corporeal version of the creature.

Still, unlike most of these cases (see above), there are no special ability modifying the natural attacks, so I don't see any reason why you shouldn't get the 6* touch-ac hitting ghost tendrils at 20' reach for 3d10 damage and 19-20 crit range.

*) Highest number of natural attacks for a fey.


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Regarding this thread's original topic:
I went through my spreadsheet and compiled a list of which creature have the (uncommon) special abilities listed in FF4:

SENSES
all-around vision | Norn
blindsense 60 feet | Ankou, Wild Hunt Hound
blindsight 30 feet | Norn, Muse, Nukkefeen, Banelight, Kamaitachi, Whisperer, Wild Hunt Hound
see in darkness | Candlestone Courtier, Vilderavn, Escorite, Rabisu, Whisperer, Wild Hunt X
tremorsense 60 feet | Oceanid, Glaistig, Nuno

AURA
fear aura | Chaneque
frightful presence | Nuckelavee, Vilderavn

DEFENSIVE ABILITIES
fast healing 5 | Redcap, Cold Rider, Winter Fey, Erlking, Hamadryad, Oceanid, Pooka, Banelight

ATTACK ABILITIES
bleed | Thin Man, Ankou, Erlking, Sangoi, Vilderavn, Kamaitachi, Wild Hunt Horse
burn | Hellfire Ignis
grab | Nuglub, Kelpie, Rusalka, Morgodea, Bagman, Rabisu, Calpina
nasal spray | Bagiennik
poison | Lurker In Light, Nereid, Pooka, Tunche

SPECIAL ATTACKS
constrict | Rusalka
rend | Tunche
trample | Nuckelavee, Zephyr
rock Throwing | Korred, Ohancanu

SPECIAL ABILITIES
abduct | Boggart
animated hair | Korred
beguiling aura | Nereid
blood rage | Sangoi
boot stomp | Redcap
crushing leap | Alp
heavy weapons | Redcap
hide in plain sight | Ijiraq
icewalking | Cold Rider
kneecapper | Nuglub
luminous | Sprite
no shadow | Shadow Collector
oversized weapons | Dvorovoi
putrid vomit | Grimple
supernatural speed | Quickling
tear shadow | Shadow Collector
transparency | Nereid, Fossegrim
tree meld | Dryad, Hamadryad
vault | Spring-Heeled Jack

SQ
compression | Thin Man, Monaciello, Domovoi, Dvorovoi, Ovinnik, Drochtac
sound mimicry | Tunche
trackless step | Swan Maiden
undersized weapons | Nuckelavee
woodland stride | Twigjack

­
NATURAL ATTACKS (>3)
6 | Whisperer | 6 mist tendrils touch (3d10/19-20)
5 | Ankou | 2 claws (1d6), tail slap (1d8 plus bleed), 2 wings (1d8 plus bleed)
5 | Tunche | bite (2d8 plus poison), 4 claws (3d6)
5 | Rabisu | bite (1d6+), 4 claws (1d4 plus grab)
4 | Rusalka | 4 tresses (2d6 plus grab) <special ability attack>
4 | Ijiraq | 2 claws (2d4), bite (2d6), gore (2d6)
4 | Escorite | 4 tentacles (1d6)
4 | Boggle | bite (1d4), gore (1d6), 2 claws (1d4)
4 | Kamaitachi | 4 claws (1d6 plus bleed)


Derklord wrote:
poison | Lurker In Light

This is incorrect. The member in the bestiary is carrying shadow essence, it is not produced by the fey.


Thanks for the responses. :)

@Azothath and @Derklord I already discounted Type/Subtype in my original post, it was more about noting that some Polymorph Spells do grant an Incorporeal form despite the lack of typing change, and whether that applied to the Fey Form line of Spells. Previous Polymorph Spells that deal in Types that include Incorporeal races state which in the Spell line allow them as options but Fey Form I-IV did not use a Corporeal/Incorporeal split. Personally I do not believe that it was intended to cover an Incorporeal Fey but could see a route for that interpretation; as @Derkolord said, the Spells do not call out the Incorporeal Ability, so it does not get it.

My follow-up would then be - if I cannot properly "mimic" its form, is the Whisperer even a valid Target? Can I really just become a Corporeal version or is it innately required for the form to exist/be copied? The Incorporeal (Ex) Universal Monster Rule specifically states that an Incorporeal Creature does not have a physical body, so trying to Polymorph into a Corporeal version may not strictly be classed as successfully Polymorphing into the Creature's form, making the Spell an auto-failure. I cannot take on its actual weight, the physical form may not support itself properly as a physical thing; etc. Then again, I might be over-complicating things, ha, ha, I just like to pin things down (if possible).


The Sideromancer wrote:
Derklord wrote:
poison | Lurker In Light
This is incorrect. The member in the bestiary is carrying shadow essence, it is not produced by the fey.

Except the Bestiary entry does not list the poison as carried gear. Indeed, it's specially listed as an exceptional ability. Putting poison on your weapon is not an exceptional ability - everyone can do that.

The way it's written, you seem to gain the ability to put shadow essence on your weapons without needing recources (standard action, as the poison rules in the CRB state).

@Benslayer: "[A] polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature" - I'd just have the polymorph spell turn your physical body into one that looks like the fey's incorporeal body. Note that the polymorph rules don't talk about the creature's body - you take on the "form", which the whisperer obviously has (a humanoid one to boot, so you even keep your equipment). Don't ask me how "a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume" of something without a physical body can be in your spell component pouch!

For the record, making you incorporeal would be way overpowered and is thus definitely out of the question.


Material components exist to limit spellcasters. Having a piece of the creature allows a home game GMs to limit the assumable forms by saying "that's not available" or having casters buy specific creature parts.

As this is an Advice thread, I'd advise all GMs to limit material components to common creatures of 2HD(CR2) or less, domesticated animals or common mounts. lol... just a difference in play style from the generic standpoint. there's not a lot of guidance on what is common other than the advice under the knowledge skills in identifying monsters in the Bestiary 1 {which was in print at the time} and the random encounter charts. It's really an area that a GM should develop
IMO buying a piece of unicorn or lurker in light is going to take some effort in play and not something that's going to be a common spellcasting practice. Players should go, "MwoHaaHaaahaa... I've got 2 pieces of Lurker in Light!" not - yeah it's free and I just got it in my pouch, somewheres. I don't mind the players having special components, I just want to know and think there should be a little roleplaying effort and some token gold to make it special. It is a game after all...
If you don't want to get into the details then just go generic as per RAW.


The existence of a material component is intended as a limitation to spellcasting, but unless it has a stated value, the nature of that component is not. Which is why the Spell Component Pouch exists.

Also, Eschew Materials is a thing.

Of course a GM is allowed to deploy such a rule, but that definitely should be established before the start of the cmapaign, as it's a pretty severe houserule.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I suspect I’m going to be coming back to this thread, particularly Avoron’s list and Cuup’s spreadsheet, for the hunter I’ll be playing in an AP starting this summer. Thanks for putting it all together!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cuup wrote:

Hey, I made a comprehensive Fey Form chart on a Google Doc. I'd love it if someone with better game mastery than me could take it and make a sort of guide out of it - breaking down which forms are better for which role - caster, tank, damage-dealer, animal companion, etc.

II, III, and IV in parentheses indicate features that are only available using higher levels for the Fey Form spell.

LINK

I took what you made and added some filters (and added some missing data)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A1_FD9NyYbo_y5Qiu3_agxEJ-HoAXYmpS-X nLwGqjlY/edit#gid=1362389840

Feel free to edit, i got another copy :)


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Darkin wrote:
Cuup wrote:

Hey, I made a comprehensive Fey Form chart on a Google Doc. I'd love it if someone with better game mastery than me could take it and make a sort of guide out of it - breaking down which forms are better for which role - caster, tank, damage-dealer, animal companion, etc.

II, III, and IV in parentheses indicate features that are only available using higher levels for the Fey Form spell.

LINK

I took what you made and added some filters (and added some missing data)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A1_FD9NyYbo_y5Qiu3_agxEJ-HoAXYmpS-X nLwGqjlY/edit#gid=1362389840

Feel free to edit, i got another copy :)

Link shows up as "does not exist"


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Rycaut wrote:
Darkin wrote:
Cuup wrote:

Hey, I made a comprehensive Fey Form chart on a Google Doc. I'd love it if someone with better game mastery than me could take it and make a sort of guide out of it - breaking down which forms are better for which role - caster, tank, damage-dealer, animal companion, etc.

II, III, and IV in parentheses indicate features that are only available using higher levels for the Fey Form spell.

LINK

I took what you made and added some filters (and added some missing data)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A1_FD9NyYbo_y5Qiu3_agxEJ-HoAXYmpS-X nLwGqjlY/edit#gid=1362389840

Feel free to edit, i got another copy :)

Link shows up as "does not exist"

Sorry, try this one

LINK


There are a few things I am not sure about with this spell

Like, if you take the form of a Redcap, you do not gain the Redcap (Su) ability, which gives the Redcap it's fast healing. Do you get the fast healing without the Redcap ability?

There seems to be a quite a few fey creatures that get abilities mentioned in the Fey Form spells, that are tied to other abilities the creatures have that are not mentioned.


The Sideromancer wrote:
Derklord wrote:
poison | Lurker In Light
This is incorrect. The member in the bestiary is carrying shadow essence, it is not produced by the fey.

"If a listed ability depends on an item (as is the case with boot stomp), this spell transforms the nearest counterpart among your worn gear into that item"

As per Fey Form I, i think this would cover a poison ability as well.


As a wizard, if I cast Fey form on my familiar what would the DC for the spells be?

And if a Fey you transform into has spell-like abilities with a caster level higher than yours, can you still cast those spells because the Fey form grants them to you?


Fey Form doesn't really grant you spell-like abilities. It's just that if you can cast some specific spells, you become able to use them as if they were spell-like abilities (with no spell components, cannot be counterspelled). You still use your own spell slots, caster level, DC, etc.

So no, if you can't cast some spell, you won't get to do that in the fey form either. And familiar won't get any spells.


Sorry to bother, and yes I started a Post on this exact thing (even worded the same), but when I read this post I thought maybe there was a greater chance for some insight (and if need be, I will remove the other post no problem).

I have been searching for an answer for this for days and have turned up squat.. namely, what is the range on the Bagiennik Nasal Spray? All it says is Ranged Touch, and the only thing I have found in regards to it outside of the Bestiary was a post set on something else that just happened to have someone mention the fact that it has no range listed. Any and all information to help resolve this would be very welcome, thank you for your time.


Fey Form 2 is a 6th level spell for Wizards, so mid level. GM's may not have a lot of experience with the spell system and interactions at this level. While it's not the most complex spell some of the fey target creatures are not exactly well defined (unless you mean "in print").
When you get into corner cases or things that aren't well defined, you are in the GM's grey area. So it is best to run things by him before you do them in your home game.
PFS is a simple game for fun and follows RAW somewhat closely and GMs tend to say 'no' to anything not well defined.


I believe the default for most ranged attacks is 10ft

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