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AHhhhh ok.. I have got it now, thank you all Very much for all of the good Info, it is most appreciated, by both me and my DM (long time friend and player of PF1E, but I hyped him up into wanting to try PF2E Lol). SO again, Many thanks to all of you!

Jared Walter 356 wrote:

Not quite. Assurance discounts your relevant stat, while DCs include it. Crafting DC is equal to 10+ your total crafting modifier including stats, in this case intelligence. If you would make crafting checks at +8, your crafting DC is 18. If you would make them at +12, the DC would be 22, etc.

Your DC for anything is 10+ your modifier. This is true for all abilities including perception, fortitude, spells etc.. It might be easier to envision if you think of it as replacing opposed roles, and they just assume the defender or passive party always rolls a ten.

Thank you for adding to more information. To be sure I understand, this would mean 10 + Int Mod + My Level + Prof in Skill (and +Item if I have a tool with a bonus)? Not sure are any other bonuses that would apply like Circumstances or such, but if so then they would factor in as well, yes?

Again, thank you for taking the time to assist me... My Future Kobold Barbarian and his couple of traps of DOOM certainly do appreciate it,

Perpdepog wrote:
Your DC is always the thing +10. So your crafting DC is your crafting skill plus ten.

Ahhh ok, I think I understand. It follows the same as Assurance would insofar as how At 1st level with Trained it would be 13 (10+lvl 1 +2 for trained), 3rd level with Expert it would be 17 10+lvl 3 +4 for Expert), etc, etc, yes? If so then it is not that hard to remember, thank you.

Hello all,

To preface, We are getting ready to start our 1st PF2E game soon and I was going to make a Kobold type and was considering going into Snares a little bit (via their Ancestry stuff) with the desire to learn some stuff now and then maybe later putting into play through more specialized builds.

I have read all kinds of guides and posts and watched videos on Crafting and Snares and such, but I can not find an answer to my question, so I'm Sorry to possibly be asking a simple question, but I have searched and searched and I can not find the answer that explains away my confusion, so I thought I would just ask.

My question is, how do I determine my "Crafting DC" in regards to the section on snares that covers them being found and disarmed? I know how to roll (or use the Assurance Feat) to determine if I can craft something based on the item's creation DC (do I actually have to still do a Craft Check to set a snare?). However, it is that section that states "using the creator's Crafting DC as the snare's Stealth DC" and the portion for disarming it that is where I am really getting stumped, as I do not understand how to determine my Crafting DC to use against their Perception or Thieving Skills.

I have read the rules multiple times, but I think I am just seriously missing something obvious and simple, so I figured after trying to wrap my head around it that I would come here and just ask "How do I determine my Crafting DC in regards to things like this?".

Anyways, I hope I was able to be clear about what has me confused and as always, I hope to get this clarified by those of you who are better off in the know how. Thank you.

Xenocrat wrote:
No, nothing new from me. I keep hoping to see more people talk about it, too.

Seeing as how you put in so much thought on the different Niches and such Xenocrat, I thought I would ask you a Question, if I may?

Namely, would you think that the Drawbacks of the Sepulture Niche could be mitigated enough by to actually be worth it for a ranged Build (by keeping my MP at 2 via the free 1 MP reduction)? This is Especially a concern for an SRO with their half healing from Magic that affects living racial bit (aka, the Risky route lol).

I'm trying to figure if it would be worth the 10% cheaper price and larger variety of Augment choices (especially since I am going Augmented Archetype and will be using Heavy Weapons to offset that loss of the 2nd-6th lvl Adaptations)? I mean, as I mentioned before, the DM is allowing Gravity Age 3PP Augmentations (with his looking over them and approval, which they were his idea anyways lol).

What I am thinking is, if you were to only use your Adaptive Strike in a Manner that would give the least likely chance of killing a target and putting you into that Will save effect (i.e. using that heavy weapon if you think the target is close to death).

Of course, my other option is to just pick Mechanized and ignore their abilities outside of their Damage Reducing ones and just pay the normal Evolutionist price for the Cybernetics (aka, the safe route lol).

Any which ways, I just wanted to ask since you had done several really good and informative posts on the Class and Niches already. Thank you for your time.

Edited to add: I suspect I already know the answer, but still doesn't hurt to double/triple check lol.

Gaulin wrote:
I would love to chime in but I've only had three sessions with my evolutionist. I'm having a great time but we really haven't done all that many combats and haven't really gotten anything out of evolutionist features yet, really. Being a melee brute in starfinder doesn't take much and is effective no matter the class though. I'm playing a vital niche evo and biotic invigoration is really handy for sure. Easy to write off in the early levels because the healing seems like nothing but it adds up and really helps with longevity.

Well, I am glad that you are having some luck and enjoyment with it so far. Xenocrat did state that the Vital Niche was probably the best one as far as Balance, sadly I can not see that working as well for a ranged Evolutionist. I also know that the Damage reduction you get from the Mechanized Niche is not exactly stellar, but it is something at least.

The only thing Selp Niche would bring me really would be the cheaper Augments (which are always a nice thing since I am going Augmented Archetype as well as Augment Focus at 7th) as the bonus Damage only applies to the Adaptive Strike and it's first strike on living, and I plan to use other weapons as well. I am going to be using Heavies for Energy damage as well as AoE, and some Longarm weapons (especially since my DM wants to expand some of the Augments and has allowed the Gravity Age Augment Books, which has a couple in them).

So I am still in a conundrum at the moment as to which Niche I want for Ranged Evolutionist though, especially since the healing reduction from being an SRO will hurt a little bit more in Selp than Mechanized

Well, this is a sad day in the Neighborhood. Almost nobody else is talking about it and the one person who is is not exactly having the best of luck/fun with it. Ahhhh well, I guess I will get my chance next week when we start.. just need to decide which Niche (Mechanized seems to fit best for SRO Thematically, but I have a backstory in mind if I choose Vital or Selpchure).

I am even thinking about going heavy weapons by using the brain implant that lets you gain Proficiency in any weapon group for free for 1 hour at a time (Going 7th level Augment Most Likely and Augemented Archetype, so the range and AoE will be useful as I get no Adaptations until 8th), and then switching to Adaptive Strike for when out of ammo/batteries or need to strike more often instead of Blast/Explode. Going to be getting implants that allow me to mount weapons on my body, just for giggles lol. I will have to drop back in and tell you how much I like, or hate, it when I have tested it a bit lol.


Sorry to bring this post back to life, but I was wanting to ask if you had been playing with the class since your last posts on the subject, and if so, if you had any more insights/thoughts about the class you could share?

I know the class has it's issues and I have read every post I can find on it (not many of those), but I am still going to give it a try. Building an SRO with Ranged Strike (Not sure yet if Physical or energy), most likely with the Augmented at lvl 7 (Might change to Combat), and actually using the Augmented Archetype, but kind of up in the air for the Niche still, so I keep searching for more input, but sadly find anything newer.

Anyways, as I said, I just wanted to see if you had played with it some more, and if so, if you had any fresh insights.

Thank you in Advance either way and thank you for your time.

Hello again Ma'am,

It is very nice to meet you as well! Thank you for taking the time to come in and reply, it is very much appreciated. I kind of suspected that your answer was indeed the case, but I felt it couldn't hurt to ask. Anyways, I want to say it again, I loved the artwork, loree and bonus stuff (Including NPCs), and I think the Evolutionist Class is an interesting one, just a little bit here and there confusing is all.

Ok, of to the Crypt for me! I hope you have a great Night/Morning/Afternoon!

Xenocrat wrote:

It means what it says.

The special melee attack is melee only. It does no damage, has bad action economy, and also has a save even if you hit, so it's not great. Only really makes sense if you're trying to set up the sicken debuff for a spellcaster ally, willing to forgo trying to do more reliable damage to do it, and are a rare evolutionist who actually has a reason to want to build MP rather than keep them low or at zero. There's no cooldown, but I wish there was so people wouldn't waste their time trying to do this bad action multiple times in a fight.

The second also does what it says. Once per 10 minute rest they gave you a freebie MP you can get when you hit someone, regardless of whether your ranged strike is melee or adapative.

I can invent semi-plausible in-game "realism" justifications and balance reasons for why these might have been designed these different ways. It's enough for me to be sure they meant to do what they wrote.

Thank you. I was not really looking for any in game related reasoning. I was just trying to understand what the rules actually were in regard to this, as they were obviously not clear to myself (or my DM). If it were just myself that wasn't sure, I would say maybe it's because of being raised in a different country, but with him being Born and Raised in the U.S., I figured that maybe they're were others that were confused as well... thus the reason I asked.

So, having said that, I thank you for your insights. I hope you have a good day/evening/night (whichever it is for you ).

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

As one of the writers for this book, I would love to see more reviews of the book by more people. I am happy to see the love for the NPC index!

I really liked the options that were written by my other fellow authors. There was good lore and a few fun mechanical options!

Mrs. Murphy,

I am sorry to bother you, but since you were one of the writers for this book, I had a question or two... namely, were you one of those who worked on the Evolutionist Class? If not, are you able to contact the one, or ones, who did? I posted a couple of questions in the Rules Questions section about the Lvl 5 ability that I was hoping to get cleared up (it is a case where they are kind of vague-ish, which might be due to space limits or mistakes). If you could either answer those, or get someone who can answer them to do so, that would be so very much appreciated.

As for the book, the artwork, lore and species and class additions are amazingly well done. I like the Evolutionist concept (feels kind of like a mixing of Kineticist and Shifter), but there are a few things that I'm not a huge fan of (the short range being one, but the confusion over the lvl 5 ability being the main one).

Anyways, thank you for the work you and the others did for the book, overall I really enjoy it!

My questions are simple, and I hope that the developers read these rules questions and can answer.

The Evolutionist Drain Ability at level 5 States:

"You can leech genetic material and raw evolutionary potential from others. As a standard action, you can make a special melee attack against a significant enemy’s EAC. If you hit, the target must attempt a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + half your evolutionist level + your key ability score modifier). If the target succeeds, you gain 1 Mutation Point. If it fails, you gain 1d3 Mutation Points and the target is sickened for an equal number of rounds.

In addition, when you hit a creature with a melee adaptive strike or with a ranged adaptive strike within its first range increment, you can gain 1 MP as a reaction. After you’ve used your adaptive strike to gain a Mutation Point in this way, you can’t do so again until you rest for 10 minutes to regain Stamina Points."

Now, my questions are:
The second part specifically states Ranged or Melee Strike but the first part only states Melee Strike, so does this mean that one part of the listing or the other is a mistake/typo/forgotten? Aka, should the first part also have it useable as a Ranged Strike? Or should the second part only have it used as Melee Strike?

The reason I ask these are because it does not make much sense that you can drain 1 point with a ranged strike (inside 1st Range increment) but not being able to do the stronger version (even if you are in melee range, and Yeah, not the smartest thing, but still lol).

My other questions are:
The second part states that it can be used Once until a 10 minute rest (Aka on CD). Does this mean each type of Evolutionist drain Attack (main attack or reactionary) be used once each per rest? Or IF you use either of those it puts the whole thing (both types) on cooldown?

Anyways, hopefully an answer is forthcoming (and if it is a mistake in the printing, a Developer will pop in and clarify).

Thank you all for your time.

I wish to Pre-face this with:

I am not trying to knock on this book, I just got it and I love everything about it except the Fairy Shifter, but beyond my following with that (hopefully someone can help with some of my thoughts and maybe show me I am wrong), this book is amazing work.

Ok, I want to play a Fey Shapeshifter, always have, However The Fairy Shifter seems to be a weaker version than the Progenitor Druid (or even a regular Druid since the Fey Form spell is on their list anyways), and especially at higher levels. I mean, it gives up the Bonus Feats that the Legendary Shifter gets (which are such an awesome add on) for a weaker spell casting as well as uses Charisma instead of Wisdom (losing out on some good Skills like Perception). This leads to a slower and more limited spell progression overall by only being a 6th level caster instead of 9th. It stays the same as the Progenitor Druid at 3/4 Bab and d8 HP with an Even Slower Fey Form progression (after Fey Form 2), with Fey form being at 11 instead of 10 and Fey Form 4, which at 17 instead or the 14 from Progenitor (or 15 for the spell).

Yes, it gets the ability to change to the form for longer periods (a Lot longer, which is very nice) and more frequently (unless Druid Casts the spell), but this is paid for by not being able to assume any other animal forms, which is something that the Druid does not lose. Yes, it will eventually beat it out for speed, but this is nothing that can't be taken care of by simply Multiclassing into the Feyform Shifter for 4 levels and then taking Shaping Focus and Shifter's Rush. This not only still gives you 8th Level Caster, but keeps your spell progression the same as the Fairy Shifter AND still goes to 8th level casting versus 6th. This also gives you more uses of Fey Form 1 (and if your DM allows Shaping focus with Shifter, Fey Form 2) than the Baseline Progenitor not using the Spell, otherwise could be even, while still keeping FeyForm 2 at only 1 level behind Legendary Shifter's. This brings the total uses about equal, just not as long or the ability to switch while shifted for free, which are both very nice as well if you need them.

This also gives you Full BaB for those 4 levels, so a smidge ahead the 3/4, plus access to the Fey Aspect, which is actually really nice with it's 20% miss chance (can be mixed in with the Moonlight stalker feat even for extra Attack and damage). Yes, the Bonus fangs and scaling Damage of the Claws and Fangs are also nice (as are the CR Bypasses for natural attacks), but with the right forms, they would not really out damage the attacks of the form, and Normal Shifter's Claws DR Bypasses work on their natural attacks as well.

I am not trying to knock Legendary's work as I think the Rest of the Class is amazing (as is their Kineticist, so I know they do great work), just seems like this one gave up to much only it weaker than a Progenitor (or Regular) Druid or a Multiclass Shifter/Druid. I am really hoping that I am missing something to prove me wrong, so if I missed anything in the above, please tell me.


I have another question to ask, this one about the Metamorphic Genius. It says that they get the Alchemist's Alchemy feature, but does this include the Bombs, Mutagens, and Discoveries that go with? I am guessing not since the class is all about shapeshifting (and doing so before a regular Alchemist), but since Mutagens (and maybe some discoveries) alter the player as well, I thought I would ask


Also, does the PrC advance all of the Base Shifter stuff (like the spells of the Fairy Shifter, or Alchemy of the Metamorphic Genius)?

Thank you for your time, and hopefully for any help.

Garretmander wrote:
Only the appearance and size category.

Thank you.. I thought as much, but wanted to be sure before I told them so.

However, now I get to be sad that they didn't add Skittermander to the List.. I really enjoy those little things lol.


Sorry to bother again, but I ran into another question about the Android Xenometric Adaptation.. Namrly, the entry says that they possess the physical features and size. My question is, by physical features are they incorporating the racial ability adjustments, or only the appearance? I belive they mean just the appearance, but I could be wrong here. I have seen other posts that mention things in regards to this, but nothing concrete about it as far as I could tell (and it is possible I missed something, would not be the first time lol). Any information on this would be helpful. Thank you in advance.

HammerJack wrote:

There is not any kind of announced upcoming official tule stating "these races will be added under xenometeic android."

To use xenometeic variants modeled after other races, you'll need to do a little house ruling and select the traits that seem most appropriate. It's a lot like using non-core races with Borai.

I was afraid of this. The group I am with is just now about to try a Starfinder run and I was just looking in case I needed to get with my GM/DM. This is the first time for all of them but myself (though my experience with it was very short and only when the core rule book came out) so I am unsure if he will do any homebrew or not, although he is very experienced with Pathfinder and allows a lof of 3rd party if they are fairly balanced.

Ahhh well, can't hurt to have asked lol.. Thanks again HammerJack for the answer

Sorry if this has been answered before, but a search of the forums yielded no results.

I am asking, are any of the races in Alien Archive 3 also supposed to be/going to be included in the racial options for the Xenometric Android, and if so, which ones and what abilities? Curiouos because there are a few nice ones in there and some I think would make for a cool idea or two (The Spathinae come to mind right off the bat)..

Side question not even remotely related to the above, mainly because I am curious as can be...

Armor Adjusted for Spathinae would work how? Not really relevant I know, but I am just really wanting to know. I mean, they are a swarm of little insects that can literally change form (Which is not mentioned as being possible or impossible when wearing armor, though logically it should be impossible) and even compress (Which the adjustment supposedly allows, but curious how?).

Anyways, if I could please see an answer about the actual question on Alien Archive 3 and Xenometric Android, that would be much appreciated, thank you in advance!

Here is a thought, and please bear in mind that I have not played Pathfinder in a long while, but the Fey Druid can Shapechange into a Fey Creature, and at Fey Form 4 gains creatures that Naturally have Fast healing.. since this is not a spell but a natural ability of the form, would if still be shut down?

Thank you Cavall for your thoughts and assistance, as always, I welcome any and everyone's inputs since it helps with trying to figure things out. So again, I would like to thank everyone who has commented on this, and the other, thread about this little bugger.. have a great day!

Thank you all for your thoughts on the matter. As Cevah pointed out, there was another thread I had posted on this, but I had waited a week before I started this one, and I only did this to try and broaden who might see it and possibly get a wider selection of answers, so again, thank you all. To be honest, I FAQed it as well, but I doubt it will get any consideration since it is a minor thing, which is why I turned to the community.

As for the attack listed or not Cavall,

Speed 30 ft., swim 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +9 (1d4-1)
Ranged nasal spray +10 touch (3d6 fire, 3d6 acid, and nasal burn)

There it is listed as a ranged touch attack with the bonus and damage dice, unless you meant something else? If so, then I apologize for not being sure of what it was, but I am not fully awake as yet (been meaning to get back and post a reply to everyone but work, need I say more? lol).

Thank you all again for your time and answers, they are most informative.

Sorry it took me a couple days to get back, no computer access due to work.

Anyways, thank you both for your inputs, they are very much appreciated. Mr. Pauljahome, I would have never thought of a fey animal companion before.. of course, I always forget that animals can have, for lack of another word at the moment, Archetypes... that is very flavorful, even if it is 3 feats to get lol (well, 2 unless you want it at level, then 3).

Mr. Derklord, I just wanted to say that I actually do have that post open, always have.. yours, the one a short bit above (Avoron's) and the Polymorphamory (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1avbOKg848X3Z3dVpmdrpxtR__zan2jj_NzP0uZ U9LTw/edit#) have been my guides for all things fey while I have been researching these things, however, I always seem the AoN and PFSRD20 Fey pages as well since not all fey are listed on either. I love your work and I appreciate it immensely, as I said, it has been helping me with this. However, I have a few questions in regards to your post.

1) It looks like maybe you forgot to list the Whisperer in this reply to my post (it is in your original post) as a 6 attack creature.. was this an accidental oversight, or did you intentionally decide to leave it out due to the whole slew of discussion about whether or not it was valid due to the original's being Incorporeal, or was maybe an official soource finally able to step in and solve it? If official, would you please link it for me because I can't seem to get some answers to another fey related critter (my Baggeinik and his Nasal Spray Range Touch Attack with no range listed lol)?

2) In your original Post, You list Defensive Abilities, but you only allow for Fast Healing.. is there a reason you did not include the DR, Spell resistance and/or the various Resistances to Elementals, mind-affecting, or Poisons? I ask because many, if not most, get some form of DR and a lot of times it is DR 5 eventually (before Fast Healing even, same with all the other defenses). I'm nopt even asking about Supernatural Speed (gives Uncanny Dodge and Evasion for defense, plus Concealment which is basically invisibility when stationary) because I think only 1 fey has it and that one only has 2 attacks. There are even a couple who have DR AND Fast Healing, though I know they have less attacks (BaB and in some cases one extra).

3) I realize that not many fey have a lot of Natural Attacks, although there are a few with some good ones, but there are a few that have weapons and Natural, including one who has weapons and a called out Natural attack that is still Primary because it is from the Horse half of the body (plus the 2 secondary).. the Nuckelavee. But I also figure that the Fey Forms are more to give you the ability to still cast your spells (sometimes Stilled and Silenced) as well as offer a few forms with some decent Natural Attacks and/or Utilities.

4)Lastly (for now lol) How big an attack are you talking about when you say one big attack? I ask because I know of one Fey (Cold Rider)who has a so/so one at 2d6 +1d6 Cold (assuming target is not immuneor resistant, which I know Cold is the 2nd most resisted)... though that is not the kind of numbers I am thinking you are looking for when you say big attack, but I thought I'd ask.

Anyways, I will hop off here for now, though I do look forward to your answers, and please, do not take my questions negatively, they are merely questions as I am trying to look more into your thoughts.

P.S. I forgot, what did you mean by HiPS? High Physical Strength?

P.P.S. Also, how would you rate being able to provide Cover for allies or Difficult terrain for enemies from their Nature Bond replacement? Or the Wild Magic one? And Lastly, I promise lol, the summoning creatures with Fast Healing (especially if you took the feat Augment Summoning)?

OK, I will actually hop off now.. meant to post this this morning and got in a rush...

Been a little over a month since I asked this, so I thought it wouldn't hurt to bump it up in hopes that someone who might have missed it before and knows something might give it a look see, thank you for your patience and time.

Sorry to pop this question up again as I know it has been a few weeks, but by the same token, I was hoping to see if maybe anyone had yet had the chance to try it? We hadn't really had a chance to play much the last few weeks, so I haven't had a chance to make one and test it as yet.

As always, any thoughts and input is welcome, thank you.


That is kind of what I was concerned about as well.. however, it isn't 100% clear, so maybe we will get lucky and someone (Ahem PAIZO Devs please read lol) will step in with a post or a faq about this, as well as many other things I have seen people asking about (Including Stuff from their latest books that need some clarification on). Upside, I don't play PFS, so my GM might be sold on letting the Weapon Proficiency Feats allow it to be used on other natural weapons (like how the baseline lets them work on other weapons whenever you use these feats).

I am really hoping that they haven't completely abandoned PF1 now, at least not without still doing FAQs and corrections to stuff that still isn't clear. I mean, I can understand if they choose to not do anymore actually material releases anymore since PF2 and Starfinder seem to be their prime focuses for the future of the company, but at least don't leave us hanging with questions about the material that is already out (some of which was released with odd stuff like the Baggernik Nasal Spray as ranged touch attack, but no range listed, or things like this that I am asking, etc etc).

Anywhos, thank you guys again for your thoughts.. maybe some more people will chime in and add to this with their thoughts as well.


I would change the title of the post to reflect the Feral Champion instead of my mistaken label of Primal Champion... however, I don't exactly see a way to do so, so I apologize to anyone who sees this cluster of mine.

Crap.. yes.. Feral Champion.. I was jumping all over the place when I decided to write this and mixed up a thing or three in the name (Obviously lol). Thank you for your thoughts on the matter, I appreciate the input. As for the buff of the claws from the archetype, I thought (and might have misread something) but if you took weapon proficiency on other natural attacks it would work on them as well? Like how the baseline Warpriest works? If not, then yeah.. I can see what you mean, and even if so, you would likely only want to to do it to something like Talons as you would get two attacks of those every round like your claws.

Either which way, I see your point.. thank you for the time you took to answer me, I love hearing other's ideas and thoughts on things.

Here is another question or two.. Namely I am curious to see what people's opinions are about the Primal Champion Warpriest Archetype (Ultimate Wilderness one with claws and Wild Shape)?

Also curious as to how people feel it compares against the Shifter (Mainly Adaptive since that is kinda the new base lol)?

And Lastly, I think, I know the Warpriest can have pretty good DPS (Burst/Substained) as an Arsenal Chaplain Archetype archer (Arguably one the best, albeit for a limited number of combats/time according to the math worked out by Chess Pwn), but can the Primal Champion Warpriest pull off something similar at melee? Especially if you start off with a race that has natural attacks other than claws like the Aerieborn who has bite and Talons (Both primary) or the Ragebred (gore primary and hooves secondary).

Maybe add in a witch dip for hair attack (via archetype or hex). Even willing to throw in a second dip or two of Adaptive shifter to get a couple of forms and/or one druid for the Shaping Focus.

Thank you for your time, assistance and any information.

N. Jolly,

I know what you said last year (and yes, I am resurrecting this dead horse, but that is because it relates to the very guide in it) about time and writing constraints, but I thought I would toss out a brief question and see if you think you will have the time, or inclination, to add in some of the Archetypes (and your views on them) that have been released since the last update for the guide? I am thinking of Ultimate Wilderness (Feral Champion) and any that might have come out this year in the 2 (3?) books we have received so far. If not, understandable, but I thought it couldn't hurt to ask. Thank you for your time and all your informative guides.

So, been a few weeks since I first asked this question and the nice conversation that Mr. Justus and I had, and not having yet had the opportunity to try the archetype, I thought I'd pop in and check to see if maybe anyone else had? If so, again, I ask, what has been your experience with it been so far?

I Still have some time before I must decide what to play next and keep waffling between trying this archetype and an Adaptive Shifter (Might even a Dip of Ley Line Witch with Hair Hex for the extra Natural Attack and lead into Dragon Disciple, or maybe stay straight Shifter). This character will be starting somewhere after level 2, though not sure the exact level (might be as high as 6, or as low as 3), so I will manage to get some of the toys while not starting quite from the ground up, I will still get to experience the (not so) joyful starting phase lol.

Anyways, sorry to get off on a tangent there, but I have seen a few posts with people talking about how much the enjoy the Adaptive Shifter, but still pretty much can not find a single post from anyone stating what they think of the Progenitor Druid yet lol. At this point in time I am almost willing to just get impressions from any Druids who have used the Fey Form spells lol.

I hope to gather more information from others on this, thank you for your time.

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I have noticed that using both sites is the best course of action as there have been several entries in AoN that were not in PFSRD, but also Vice Versa.. some things show in PFSRD that are not in AoN. Thus I tend to use both sites in order to cross reference some things that I search for (So far it has mostly been Fey Creatures, though there has been others).

So, my recommendation is to always look on both sites for anything that you search for.

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

My Question is, what is the range on the Bagiennik Nasal Spray? All the page says is Ranged Touch Attack, but no actual range listed. I have been searching for an answer for this for over a week and have turned up nothing official as yet. I have also asked in another forum section, but no one seems to be able to find an official answer either.

Any and all information, errata, or FAQ answer to help resolve this would be very welcome, thank you for your time.

blahpers wrote:
Looks like B5 forgot to print the range. You'll have to make something up. The weapon creation rules are as good as anything else, I guess?

Aye, I will talk to the GM once I reach the point that I can switch classes.. make sure we come to an understanding of some sort, though I expect it will be somewhere between 10 and 30' most likely. I mean, something that small probably doesn't have a massive range, though one could argue it is a propelled type of substance, one can also say it acts more like a thrown since it uses the body's own power (listed as a natural attack and not something else is where I come up with that idea). But who knows, he might surprise me lol. And yeah, B5 was not thoroughly proofread it doesn't seem.. and I honestly don't expect them to errata just that one thing. Though I might try to ask just to see.

First, thank you for your reply, it has been vexing me that there are some things like this that were never clarified before, and I guess one shouldn't hope for it now, but I am a stubborn old person, so I had to ask lol.

And Secondly..

At first, I thought this was a spam ad for some form of nasal spray.

This had me rolling, mainly because I can see why it would, especially since when I was trying to research the question, Google kept giving me sites for Nasal Sprays lol.

Anyways, thank you very much once again for your input.

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Bit of a resurrection on a older post, but I wanted to add.. this whole thing is made worse by the fairly hefty (in my opinion) decrease in number of spell slots per level. If they were separated from each other (Prepared list and Slots available), then that huge cut in slots wouldn't hurt so bad, but as it is... it makes being a caster less useful, especially a blaster (or Wild Shape Druid, since their wild shape is pretty badly done in 2E.. like VERY badly done and at higher levels, spells will be their only real recourse). Please look into either handing out more slots (like the original numbers at least) or switching to the 5E standard (Not advocating this as I feel it weakens the Sorc a little, but it would still be better than what is there already).

Sorry to bother, and yes I started a Post on this exact thing (even worded the same), but when I read this post I thought maybe there was a greater chance for some insight (and if need be, I will remove the other post no problem).

I have been searching for an answer for this for days and have turned up squat.. namely, what is the range on the Bagiennik Nasal Spray? All it says is Ranged Touch, and the only thing I have found in regards to it outside of the Bestiary was a post set on something else that just happened to have someone mention the fact that it has no range listed. Any and all information to help resolve this would be very welcome, thank you for your time.

Just checking and some even have Hide in Plain sight, Transparency (this one and the next would be at Fey Form 4), Tree Meld (Nothing says that their foot isn't on the ground if they are inside a tree, I don't think lol) and one with Extreame Supernatural Speed.. like 120'. There is also Burrow speeds and others.. pretty sure if you are burrowing you feet count as touching the earth, but even if not or this and Tree Meld, still fast get aways.

Dave Justus wrote:
Janos1 wrote:
Shame it only starts at 5' (1 square) at 1st and only goes up 5' at 5th and every 5 after..

A 5' radius emanation is 4 squares. 10' radius is 12.

Combined with small, highly mobile fey form I can see it being useful.

That said, I for the most part I don't consider domain powers or spells to be all that great either.

I don't mind abilities that I can't count on working. But I'm not fond at all of extremely limited use abilities that can't count on working and might even be detrimental to me. Some people do find this sort of thing fun though, and that is probably the attraction of the primal bond magic. It isn't mechanically any good, but if you like random things happening, 'go big or go home' all on the roll of a die, it has a ton of that for you.

Mr. Justus,

Once again, you have given me a good idea with your Insight, something I didn't even think of before. Yes, it will be kind of limited before Level 10, but at level 10 You will have it at how ever many squares (24? 32? I need to pull up a grid and count lol), but at Level 10, you get Diminutive Forms, and two of those forms for a fact have 60' flight with Good Maneuverability and one of them has DR2/Cold Iron (and there are probably even others that have better extra options. Sneak in, land Booom, you have difficult terrain.. I like it. See, this is why I appreciate your input, the ideas you have I can match with the Fey Creatures that I have studied and see some nice combos, so thank you once again.

Dave Justus wrote:

Natural Primal bond is an ability that is fairly useful limited times per day. Not dissimilar to the abilities gained from domains. Granted, you don't get a domain spell slot, which I suppose is downgrade but having only the one spell choice for each level of spell means many of these slots aren't going to be effective anyway.

One subtle thing about the progenitor druid natural primal bond that makes it stronger than is immediately apparent is that the cover option only works for allies and the difficult terrain only applies to enemies. In particular the latter, being able to create difficult terrain that your allies can ignore is a pretty good ability.

Ahhh yes, I missed that part of it.. nice catch. Shame it only starts at 5' (1 square) at 1st and only goes up 5' at 5th and every 5 after.. especially with how limited the amount of time you can have it per day so won't be a lot of use at low levels. Not to mention the Full Round just to use it, and it not taking effect until your next turn... this makes it seem to me to be a bit weaker than the AC or Domains. The reason I say this is because it takes you out of the fight completely for a full round, which could be better used to cast spells that will have that effect while still directing your companion to fight, or buffing others, or fighting yourself, etc etc. This is made worse if your group is ambushed or runs into a random encounter, and made only slightly better if your group is setting up an ambush (and then not by much since the duration is so short and it is around you, not at a point away from you, which makes it less useful again unless you are the bait lol).

Hmmmmmm I am starting to think that the Magical one might actually have better use since it is a swift action and might save you a spell use (especially if you have a good wisdom score). Sure, might get something bad, but might save a slot too...

Dave Justus wrote:

Haven't played one, but basically just looking at 3 abilities.

Infused summoning: A nice upgrade, but probably not a huge advantage. Summons that won't get killed as easily is nice. I would probably focus on summoning if I took this archetype (it is a powerful choice to focus on anyway).

Primal Bond: Seems to me to be quite a downgrade from Nature Bond. Magical Bond especially seems terrible since it is both quite limited in uses per day and unreliable. Nature primal bond seems roughly equivalent to a Domain (weaker than an animal companion though).

Fey Shape: Elemental Forms are useful, especially being able to earthglide. That said, the fey forms have a lot of unique and interesting possibilities. Figuring out what forms are available when and what all you can get will take some research, but probably pretty close to a wash.

So If you enjoy summoning (which I do) I think you could make a very effective druid with this archetype. If you don't, and therefore don't make much use of it's only real upgrade, you will probably end up a bit weaker than a vanilla druid, and this will feel especially bad if usually your really enjoy the Animal Companion aspect of the class.

Mr. Justus,

Thank you for your thoughts on the archetype. I find your observations on the Primal Bond to be interesting as far as the Natural Primal Bond being roughly equal to a Domain, may I ask why you see it so? When I look at them I see the Magic one to be kinda as you said, fairly limited, and to be fair, more likely to backfire than not lol, and the Natural one to be almost useless unless high enough to make it reach out a way and prevent something from closing in as easily (or set up for an entanglement in an area where no plants are, or provide cover with Plant Growth).

I have done a lot of research on the various Fey, not to mention using something I found in a post on the boards where someone gathered a variety of of them and classified them by some of their abilities and this Document I also found

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1avbOKg848X3Z3dVpmdrpxtR__zan2jj_NzP0uZU 9LTw/edit#

I used both Archives of Nethys and d20PFSRD to do my own research as well since neither site has all of the various Fey on their own.

I was curious about that Summons boost, especially if you were to add the Two Feats that give them a +4 to strength and Con when summoned (might not make a great boost to smaller summons, but to the bigger one, maybe good.. T-Rex with better stats AND self healing, that could work well, maybe? lol). I figured that might make for a decent summoning build, or at least a fun one.. though now that I am thinking of all of that, it seems like it might be real fun, and drive my GM/DM crazy lol.

Hmmm ok.. the more I think on this the more I feel like Progenitor might have been built with the thought of being a Caster first and foremost, but still having some interesting Abilities in Wildshape just in case you have to melee or something (especially since they get some really good small forms and such, and the dex would make them harder to hit while they can still cast, not to mention a lot of them fly). Of course, I could be missing something that would make it otherwise, but that is what it looks like to me, which is an interesting switch since I always felt that the Goliath was the opposite, more aligned with Melee and having Magic as the Backup. Anywhos, thank you again for your thoughts on this subject, I enjoy seeing what others might have noticed that I missed, and just reading your post opened my eyes to some things I didn't see before. :)

Hello again,

I was going to add this with the Bagiennik question, but decided to put it on it's own just so as to not get things scrambled in the two.

Anyways, as the subject says, I am wanting to find out people's thoughts and opinions on the Progenitor Druid Archetype. I am giving thought to trying this out after my Allowed Character Switch comes up, and I am debating between this and the Goliath Druid or Adaptive Shifter.. I've played Goliath Druid before for a few levels and I enjoyed it, and of course, everyone loves the idea of being able to shapeshift or make distorted versions of themselves, BUT I admit, I have always had a fascination with the Fey in old folklore and such growing up (grew up in Europe, so got to hear a lot of the different tales as a kid). So, when this Archetype came out, I got very curious since it got Fey Form as it's Wildshape (Yeah, I know.. you give up Animal Companion and Domain, and you don't get all the goodies, and in some cases the good goodies until higher level, but still.. Fey!)

Anyways, before I wander off thought too far, please, if anyone has any experience playing the archetype, or with the archetype, I'd love to hear what your thoughts and opinions were. Even if you never played it, or with it, but have given it the once over and considered playing it, I'd welcome your input as well. I really want to like this Archetype, but I do not want to invest my 1 free 100% exp transfer into it only to find out that it is terrible, since each change after that the exp allowed to transfer goes down, a lot. I am really hoping that it will prove out to be as good as the Goliath, Saurian or Lion Druid, or at least pretty close.

Anyways, sorry for the rambling, again, any information, input or advice/thoughts you might have on the Archetype, please feel free to share! Thank you.

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hello all,

Sorry to bother but I have been searching for an answer for this for days and have turned up squat.. namely, what is the range on it? All it says is Ranged Touch, and the only thing I have found in regards to it outside of the Bestiary was a post set on something else that just happened to have someone mention the fact that it has no range listed. Any and all information to help resolve this would be very welcome, thank you for your time.

Hmmm thank you Ryze Kuja.. that idea on Persistent spell in very interesting. I may have to try and get it to fit in, though I figured that the DC changes from the PrC, and various Archetypes as well as with Evil Eye and Misfortune would have been enough to make them land, and the Resistance Penetration from Evoker for that extra kick, but it is a good idea to look into further. Not exactly sure as to where I could make it fit though.. unless I put it in at one of my last 2 feats between 15 and 20 maybe. Spell Spec and Greater spell spec, I would likely have to just wait to get for the last 2 feats between 15 and 20 if I didn't take the Persistent Feat. Thank you again for your assistance though, you have given me several things to think upon.

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply Mr. Drake, been a bit busy. That Alchemical reagent bit is a very good idea, never really looked into it before, thank you. The Ritual Hex Feat I will have to ponder on, since I am already feat starved (for what I was doing) and I would have to see what I could drop, but it IS an interesting idea as well.. and if it would allow me to swap out the Grand/Major Hexes, that could really up it's value. I will certainly look into that as well, thank you once again. Again, I apologize for such a long time with no reply.


Sorry about that, when I typed out Snow Elf, I meant Snowcaster Elf from the People of the North (was using my phone and autocorrect got me lol), which is basically just a group of Elves that stayed behind and moved to the Northland area somewhere, nothing more than a flavor thing to me since they are still elves.

The choice of the Cold Based Damage/debuff/control is set in stone (as is the Winter Witch Archetype/ Winter Witch PrC) since I really want that Thematically, it fits my vision of what this Character's backstory is all about. Also, what Ice Magic should do, hurt, slow or lock down, and make you more sluggish and less able to fight as Hypothermia sets in.

The Invoker and Sorc I am iffy on, with the Demon-Sworn a much less likely choice (I am still considering it, but I really don't want to give up Misfortune, so probably will discard it). The Invoker is a almost a certainty because of what it brings to the table for all three of those roles. With the Hex'es I would still have and the DC boosters to Spells and Hexes (plus if I am allowed Hoarfrost Bones for extra DC love), then the Debuff is still there (If I don't take Demon-Sworn, then I can still get Misfortune with no problems) and still have Control from spells with The Winter Witch Prestige required Hex choices OR spells. Rime Spell attached to Winter's Grasp (which has no save or spell resistances) can make a powerful combo and is cheap. Because the Winter Witch/Winter Witch is able to reduce Cold Resistances and Half Damage even to Immune, then I can still do damage, and with invoker I can actually cut down Spell resistances even more while raising my Hex DC to insure that my damage spells will land, which can add more control or debuff if I tag them with add-ons. Basically, I can just about insure that Every Cold based Spell can land by tanking their DC and Raising my quite high, all the while making resistances and Cold Immunity a lot less of an issue.

One of the reasons I am Considering Cross-Blooded Sorc is for the bonus +2 Damage per dice (+3 with Invoker), or +1 (+2 with Invoker) and switching spells to cold to take advantage, or Rime with more spells as well as my DC buffs (easily +5 or more, not to mention their Debuffs). These Bonus Damage per dice may not be huge, but with an Intensified, Empowered, CL Boosted (From Robe and maybe Invoker) Cone of Cold, or Freezing Sphere, Or even Chain lightning if I Take Ice Elemental Bloodline, can add up since that is a bit of Dice being rolled and +2 or +3 per dice can mean anywhere from +30 minimum (and this is if I didn't boost with Empower and Intensify) +60 or more damage (depending on Bloodline choice and Metamagics used) ON top of what the actual Dice roll is. Reality is, I could possibly (not sure on this since I am not sitting with the notes in front of me atm) pull a +75 or more to the spell damage if I can get the spell CL to 25 and it is 1D(Whatever) per Caster Level. That may not be great Damage, but to me, it also isn't terrible, even if I rolled all 1's, it would still be useful (especially if I was able to Rime it, or do a double cast from one Quickened). Having said all of that, I also hate the idea of losing a spell level Progression, which is why this combo is still in the air for me, it is just something I am, thinking about. Mind I have gotten a few items to help with a few things I might hurt from, like the Hexing Runes, and such.

Corset of Dire Witchcraft is actually a nice choice.. I didn't see that it didn't occupy the same spot as the blouse when I last looked at it, which is one of the reasons I overlooked it. I will have to sit down and do the math with the Voidfrost Bonuses and see how it stacks up with the bonus damage (and since caster level impacts Resistances that too) versus the better Hex DC, which when used with the Hex Runes could really help with the debuffing. I think I am liking that option more and more.. actually, I just did some spot math, and yeah, you are right on the money, much better choice, thank you!

I have never heard of infernal contract before this, and so I just looked it up, and now I have to find out if it can be used without a first level Hex, since the way it is written it doesn't say that it forces you to take that hex, but rather that you get the hex at 1st level. This leaves some gray area to me since it is adding a hex while the invoker is removing one. If it works, then this is an awesome idea and many thanks to you for it, since with the Water Item and some creative use of freezing the water and shaping it, I can spend some short time in there for fast healing 1 and regen the lost hit points before the adventure begins. I can't say how much I thank you for that Idea, I will read up on it, and if I can't find anything, I will ask my GM if he will allow it, since it will also fit with the Flavor I am seeking. He was sent to Irrisen with a large sum of money in order to be trained in the arts of Winter Witchcraft. The goal of this was to Gather as much power as possible, through whatever means necessary, in order to take revenge on the Elves who had left them behind all that long time ago. With this new information you have given me, I can even add in That part of the deals he had to make to gather this kind of power meant signing himself into this Infernal Pack with the Trickery Patron, who turned out to be (umptyscrunch devil/demon or whatever lol). I still will have to fine tune and flesh out the backstory, but that is a wonderful bit of extra flavor to go with the character, and all the while Still Allowing him to keep Misfortune AND gather a Improved Familiar (ice of course lol).

Ok, I have made this long enough, and I really do thank you for your time to answer. You provided me some very useful information and Ideas to work with that should help out immensely, so thank you once again. Now to go do my research and pester my DM lol.

I apologize in advanced for this being so long (and it probably is, hard to tell since I am doing this on the phone, but computer is busy lol), as well as any repeating I end up doing in other Pathfinder related FB pages or Paizo Forums. Also preface, I have read every post, forum and watched every video I can find on the Winter Witch/Winter Witch, and have tried to use bits and pieces from all plus everything I could find.

I was hoping to run this set up by you guys and get some ideas on what you think about this, as well as any input for things I might be missing. This character would start at a minimum of level 15, if not higher (replacement for a dead character).

I am currently trying to make a good Ice/cold based witch designed around Blaster/Controller with Hexes for Debuffing or Controller/Blaster/ with Hexes for Debuffing. I love the thought of doing cold damage and inflicting debuffs or crowd control at the same time though freezing them lol. I know that the damage for this won't be the absolute best, but it is a character concept as much as anything else, something I think might be all around fun and useful.

At the moment I am thinking 1 level Crossblooded Sorc with either Orc for general damage boost, or White Dragon for Ice damage boost only (as well as thematically) and the other being either Elemental Ice (for thematics as well as turning all spells to ice), or one of the other two I didn't use before for obvious reasons (though this dip could be ignored for better spell progression of needed). The rest of the character will be Winter Witch Archetype Winter Witch PrC at Witch 6 (Character 7), Snow Elf (for the free Spell Focus, most likely Evocation since Conjuration spells are almost all without a save, and thematic reasons). Also considering adding Invoker (for damage boost and either hex/patron spell DC boosts, or, the spell resistance and DR reduction), Though the loss of some of the hexes may hurt me. But I would still be able to get Evil Eye and Misfortune (could replace either if I wish with Frozen Caress, though I don't see me useing many touch spells for this one). Or Demon-Sworn for the Improved Familiar without a feat and only losing one extra hex (or maybe even both, though that would really hurry with hex progression and cost me either Misfortune or Evil Eye). I would love to have been able to add Fortune, but unless I skip Invoker, I know it isn't possible, and I really feel that Invoker is a needed for this.

Current build stats, feats and equipment (25 pt buy)
Starting Stats:
Strength 7
Dex. 16 (+2 racial)
Con. 10
Int. 20 (+2 racial)
Wisdom. 14. (12 if I raise Cha to 13)
Charisma. 10 (13 if I choose Improved Familiar or Spirit Talker as Feats)

Feats (in no particular order):
Spell Focus Evocation (racial) for DC bonuses
Rime Spell (Winter's Grasp most often to make stick)
Prereq to Prestigious Spell Caster
Prestigious Spell Caster to offset Winter Witch PrC spell progression loss
Split Hex (or Rod of Voracious Hex)
Quicken Spell
Intensified Spell
Spell Perfection (either Come of Cold or Freezing Sphere)
Elemental Focus Cold for DC bonuses
2 (or 3 if No Split Hex) More feats between level 15 and 20... Thinking Spell Specialization, Greater Elemental Focus, improved initiative, magic Tattoo: Evocation, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Specialization, Spell Penetratration, Improved Familiar (really not sure about this one, and not needed if I were to fit in Denim-Sworn), Empowered or Maximized Spell (thinking multiple Rods instead) or maybe Spirit Talker (really really not sure).

Equipment (240k gold as per Character Advancement page, also assuming various other stat, protection boosting gear and a broom of Flying to get in and out as needed and Clawhand Shield.. only things listed are for Spell or Hex improving):
Blouse, Cackling Hag's
Robe, Voidfrost (+1 Raise Caster Level for Cold Spells)
Fates Shears (1 forced reroll)
Hexing Runes
Hoarfrost Bones (If Allowed, +1 to Caster level for Cold Spells, Day healing in Cold Weather or submerged in knee deep Water)
Decanter of Endless Water (help with Hoarfrost Bones and Winter Witch Freezing and Sculpting)
Rod of Empowering Spell

Haven't picked a patron as yet though Winter is very Thematic, though also most likely not the most optimal, despite allowing lower level Freezing Sphere.

And for Giggles, Hexes
Evil Eye (if not Misfortune)
Misfortune (if not Evil Eye)
Both Above if no Demon-Sworn
If no Invoker, Fortune and whatever
Ice Tomb
Numbing Chill
2 More From Grand Down if no Invoker, 1 more if Invoker, Maybe Natural Disaster, Death Curse or Dire Prophecy.

Thank you guy for any and all help you can give, and again, I apologize for the verbose nature of this post.

Oooh, and also, Someone try it with the Slayer set for Archery?

P.S. I am sorry for necro'ing the thread, but it got me interested and I just had to.

I am curious to see what is thought of a Skinwalker (plus 2 to dex when Shifted) Feral Hunter (two +4 Ability score Aspects up for as long as you want) With Bow Spirit and Gravity Bow Spells (plus any others) and any and all relevant archery feats (many shot, Rapid shot, etc etc) would stack? I just made one at level 13, though to be fair, I messed up a tiny bit and got the Seascarred, which is +2 to con when shifted instead, but with The Aspects, you have a choice of items or not, and the aspects, or items, would stack with the Skinwalker change since the Item/Aspects are enhancement buffs and the skinwalker isn't.

Added bonus, can Shapeshift into animals (including dinosaurs) up to huge is need be.. granted doesn't help the archery part, but was just a thought. Oh, and with Trident of the Storm Captain, when shapeshifted you get a +4 to natural attacks, so nice on the fly boost if needed.

Anyways, I digress... back to the archery part of it all.

Thank you for your input Defiant, it is very much appreciated (and sorry took a short bit to respond, but been kinda away from the comp for a few days heh). I hope you have a good day and enjoy the holiday season.

Sorry to bother all, but I am curious (and sorry in advance if this has been asked somewhere on the boards, but I honestly have not been able to find it)... Fabricate Arms has this at the end

"You can’t create magic items, weapons made from a special material, or weapons that are expended with use (such as arrows, grenades, or missiles) with this magic hack."

Now, my question is simple, does this mean you can't fabricate an empty launcher and just load it with purchased ammo (Grenades or missiles or whatever), or does it immediately prohibit those weapon types all together since the weapons have to be created fully loaded?

Second question to go with this, if it prohibits those weapons due to the fact that the hack creates ammo/charges for it's creation, does that mean that the creation never runs out of ammo until the hack ends (curious for weapons such as the Reactionary cannon that only has 6 shots?)

Either way, thank you for the time and any information/clarification you might have.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Janos1 wrote:

I asked this in the Errata Thread, but I wanted to ask here as well, just in case Mark might not be watching both..

The Gathlain in UW does not show the Favored Class Bonus that was mentioned before in the Legacy of the First World, namely their ability to slowly reduce the Burn they took per level (1/6th per level I think it was).. was this intentional, or simply an oversight/misprint?

Side question, Mutated Form (I think it is called, the one that lets you add another attack to a shapeshifted character), is it only take once, or can it be taken several times?

Thank you for any and all information you might have.

The second question is probably better off as a rules question than in the product thread (though the answer is that you can never take a feat multiple times unless it has a "Special" section saying you can).

The first question is about the product contents so is more appropriate for the product thread. Sometimes different books contain different combinations of classes included than other books for Favored Class Bonuses. Does Ultimate Wilderness contain all of the other gathlain FCBs from Legacy of the First World?

Thank you for responding Mark, it is good to know the answer to the first question (and I apologize for the wrong forum, I have rarely ever posted, so wasn't sure where to post at, so once again, I apologize for that.)

As for the second Question, as David knott 242 stated, the only FCB that are in both books are indeed the bard and the rogue. All the others are split between books.

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