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I feel also like "six levels of Oozemorph, something else thereafter" is worth exploring. Since once you've got 3 uses of the Oozemorph's Wild Shape that last 6 hours each, you can stay bipedal for the whole day so long as you sleep in a bucket. This also gets you DR 6/Slashing, Compression, 3 primary natural weapons, and a climb speed.
So you fulfill the whole "concept of an ooze person" with none of the downsides and there's not a lot else in the class for you (if you stick out two more levels you'll get an extra 2 DR, but slashing is a common damage type).
The question is "where do you go from there". Assuming the Oozemorph with 3 morphic weapons qualifies for multiattack, you can make a fair number of attacks this way.
I multiclassed into Metamorph/Alchemist for my character concept.
Only did 3 levels of Oozmorph.
mind sharing build?
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I multiclassed into Metamorph/Alchemist for my character concept.
Only did 3 levels of Oozmorph.To me I think 6 levels is the sweet spot, since it gets you your third morphic weapon (so you're now eligible for Multiattack, probably) so you can now use weapons- morphic and otherwise - with some effectiveness.
This also puts you in "hey, take a prestige class" territory if any of them are really constructively compatible with the base chassis. There isn't a deity whose favored weapon is "Natural" is there? For purposes of the Sentinel PrC, that is.
since morphic weapons are all 1 type of natural attack what benefit does multiattack offer? i
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I feel like it's *really* important that anybody who writes a Shifter Guide avoids the urge to point out "Man, this class isn't good" every third sentence, because there's a Kineticist Guide like that and that one is frankly embarrassing to read now that people have figured out what's good about that class.
Yeah, that guide was kinda a lot of bad. Good thing some hero wrote up a proper one.
Also hopefully Verzen's guide comes out soon enough too.
Mark. I have a shifter guide almost done. When can i publish it?
I think Dahak and Apsu give SW bite but I’m not sure that helps.
Oozemorph 6, Horizon Walker 3 with the dimensional agility feats is probably the best way to get pounce on an Oozewalker. That might be fun.
A teleporting pouncing ooze? Sign me up.
Could you pull off a Stalwart Defender? No idea if that would actually work with the features.
since morphic weapons are all 1 type of natural attack what benefit does multiattack offer? i
Allows you to combine iterative attacks (you're a full BAB character) with natural weapons. This turns primary natural attacks into secondary natural attacks, so turning the -5 penalty into a -2 is useful.
Like if a level 7 Oozemorph (with Multiattack) picks up a sword, they can attack at +7/+2 with the sword and +5/+5/+5 with their morphic weapons. Pick up IUS and TWF and you can make a whole lot of attacks using one AoMF to enhance them all.
Literally my issue with what the Shifter does in combat is that it combines full-BAB (Good!) and Natural Attacks (also good), without a way to make these two things work together except in a few minor cases (e.g. your full BAB makes power attack better). So the Shifters that appeal to me most are the Elementalist who picks up a weapon and the Oozemorph who picks up a weapon and multiattack. But like, other than the power attack and qualifying for feats, those "turn into a tiger/deinonychus and pounce on people" builds that are popular wouldn't play differently if they were full BAB or 1/2 BAB.
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since morphic weapons are all 1 type of natural attack what benefit does multiattack offer? iAllows you to combine iterative attacks (you're a full BAB character) with natural weapons. This turns primary natural attacks into secondary natural attacks, so turning the -5 penalty into a -2 is useful.
Like if a level 7 Oozemorph picks up a sword, they can attack at +7/+2 with the sword and +5/+5/+5 with their morphic weapons. Pick up IUS and TWF and you can make a whole lot of attacks using one AoMF to enhance them all.
Literally my issue with what the Shifter does in combat is that it combines full-BAB (Good!) and Natural Attacks (also good), without a way to make these two things work together except in a few minor cases (e.g. your full BAB makes power attack better). So the Shifters that appeal to me most are the Elementalist who picks up a weapon and the Oozemorph who picks up a weapon and multiattack. But like, other than the power attack and qualifying for feats, those "turn into a tiger/deinonychus and pounce on people" builds that are popular wouldn't play differently if they were full BAB or 1/2 BAB.
got you i had just been thinking of attacking with morphic weapons , i had not thought of adding weapon attacks, thanks
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Hmm...
How does an Oozemorph 6/Brawler 2/Barbarian X sound then? Twf with unarmed strikes while raging with all the yummy natural attacks and full BAB all around.
Sounds pretty neat.
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mind sharing build?
It's not all fleshed out yet, but it's simple enough...
1st: Oozemorph, using the Kitsune as the base race, and taking the realistic likeness feat at first level. Most of the downsides of the Oozmorph are know negated. I can take the form of any human I have encountered...at will...and maintain it for as long as I need to.
2nd: Alchemist metamorph..
back and forth until your tired with Oozmorph (like I said I don't think I will bother with more than three levels) Then just go Metamorph the rest of the way.
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mind sharing build?It's not all fleshed out yet, but it's simple enough...
1st: Oozemorph, using the Kitsune as the base race, and taking the realistic likeness feat at first level. Most of the downsides of the Oozmorph are know negated. I can take the form of any human I have encountered...at will...and maintain it for as long as I need to.
2nd: Alchemist metamorph..
back and forth until your tired with Oozmorph (like I said I don't think I will bother with more than three levels) Then just go Metamorph the rest of the way.
interesting thanks :)
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For what it's worth, I plan on writing an intro guide for the Shifter on the Class Selection Guide very soon. I was going to wait until UW was run through the PFS Additional Resources, but I want to strike while the iron's hot. I just have to finish another project over the next couple of days. Work will begin on the first week of 2018.
I can check my snark at the door and keep design criticisms to a minimum (I wrote the Swashbuckler guide, after all) but there's actually a lot of design space to play with weapon-based builds. 2 of the 3 example builds that I have in mind are weapon users that (usually) don't wild shape during combat.
Edit: And no, despite my borderline obsessive love of the Oozemorph, I will not be addressing it in the guide. This will change in the unlikely event that it gets approved for PFS play, however.
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Oh! I just remembered the feat Hammer the Gap. Very few builds can make good use of it, but maybe the Shifter being natural attack based with full BAB can do it better.
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I just read the shifter, and I am quite thankful to the authors, as it seems a good thematic class.
The "underpowered" parts are just fine by me - I am not looking for this.
However, the list of animals is a bit limited for me, and I'd like to see additional ones released, especially aquatic ones :
- Dolphins
- Turtles
- sharks
- whale
If anything has already been written with those, please point me to it.
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I was looking forward to the Shifter and had been hoping to play one for Ironfang Invasion. I admit I found the actual write-up a bit lackluster (I imagined the animal aspects to be a bit nicer than they turned out), but that all changed when I saw the Shifter's Edge feat.
Holy crap, level bonus on claw damage, no strings attached?! That's a Swashbuckler-style damage boost, but you can combine it with TWF. Doesn't that turn the Shifter into the King of TWF overnight...? Add an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists for Dex-to-damage, no question asked, and throw in Power Attack or Piranha Strike against easy targets. What am I missing?
I hope that feat doesn't get errata'd; it seems suspiciously forthcoming right now.
Right, it probably should have been a class feature... it's certainly a feat tax right now.
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Shifter's edge being changed from level to 1/2 level was the very first piece of FAQ for Ultimate Wilderness.
Apparently it was always supposed to be 1/2 level during design and development, it just ended up different in the book somehow.
Also, how does one combine natural weapons with TWF? I might be missing something, but I don't think that works.
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This seems worse than just being a vigilante and taking Lethal Grace, which lets you TWF and get half-level to damage on all of your attacks, not just the claw ones.
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Introduction: Why do you want to play a Shifter?... No, seriously, why? I got nothin'...
You know why.
The niche of a character who primarily transforms into animal forms and beats things up, with that being a fleshed out focus instead of a minor side dish to being a 9th-level spellcaster? That is a perfectly legitimate character type that should be serviced and doable.
The problem is it doesn't deliver.
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Shifter's edge being changed from level to 1/2 level was the very first piece of FAQ for Ultimate Wilderness.
Apparently it was always supposed to be 1/2 level during design and development, it just ended up different in the book somehow.
D'awww! Well, there goes that idea.
Also, how does one combine natural weapons with TWF? I might be missing something, but I don't think that works.
I assumed you could use your two claws as the two weapons you TWF with, but I suppose that doesn't work either. :(
So how is the Shifter's damage output supposed to scale, given that their number of attacks doesn't increase (at least for most of the forms) and the damage of a single attack is rather low compared to a typical martial...? They don't even get bonus feats or training or specialization or the like...
Yep, I'm starting to see the problem.
So how is the Shifter's damage output supposed to scale, given that their number of attacks doesn't increase (at least for most of the forms) and the damage of a single attack is rather low compared to a typical martial...? They don't even get bonus feats or training or specialization or the like...
1) Claw attacks are always made at full BAB. You don't have to deal with the annoying AB penalties of iterative attacks, you only have to hit at a 2 with full BAB for maximized damage. And you don't have to worry about TWF penalties.
2) Claw damage and crit multiplier scale with level, that's something you don't get from manufactured weapons. At level 17 you basically wield two dwarven waraxes (1d10, x3) - with no TWF penalty, but also no iterative attacks.
3) Damage reduction is less of an issue than with manufactured weapons. At level 3 a typical fighter might have bought some silver and cold iron backup weapons - but he still needs to know what to use when, has to equip them, they will be slightly weaker than his usual weapon. You don't have to bother with all this stuff, just start whacking.
People complained about claws not piercing DR x/magic - but there is the amulet of mighty fists which does that at +1 already. If that's no option for some reason, the Eldritch Claws feat is available at level 7, effectively. And if you are really worried about the odd incorporeal foe, a few potions of magic fang are not that expensive.
The amulet will also help you against DR x/adamantine (comes too late from class features) and DR x/alignment (not covered by class features at all). However, the class feature helps you to pierce DR x/- better than a fighter.
4) Adding more natural attacks with class dips, feats and items is an option. If you don't bother with manufactured weapons, additional natural attacks will always be at full BAB also (or at least full BAB - 5, for the odd secondary attack). A bite attack might be the first and cheapest addition - you don't need a precious feat for that, just a racial trait (tengu etc.) or a trait (half-orc...).
5) Even if you stick with just 2 claws, the actual amount of attacks increases. Haste becomes more common over the course of levels, and AOO become easier if you use enlarge person and / or feats like Combat Patrol. Greater Spring Attack is also a thing now, allowing you three attacks despite just two claws (with the usual iterative attack penalties, though).
This doesn't include aspects yet - which is the shifter's equivalents to bonus talents and other martial boosters.
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If a shifter guide is short, that's okay - simpler classes can have shorter guides. I think what it needs to do is explain the wildshape (and aspect) parts to people who don't understand wildshape/polymorphing, because druids have a lot of stuff going on and not everyone has read and understood all of it. I think it's worth mentioning the limitations of the class up front, but going on about it at length is a waste of time. The most important thing is that new people reading the guide understand how to build one that's good at the things the class can be good at (which on casual inspection seems to be just melee).
See if you're claiming it needs a guide just because of wildshape being too complicated then that's a voice of evidence that the class fails at it's supposed goal of being "beginner friendly" it has a nerfed wildshape supposedly to be easier to understand.
If a shifter guide is short, that's okay - simpler classes can have shorter guides. I think what it needs to do is explain the wildshape (and aspect) parts to people who don't understand wildshape/polymorphing, because druids have a lot of stuff going on and not everyone has read and understood all of it. I think it's worth mentioning the limitations of the class up front, but going on about it at length is a waste of time. The most important thing is that new people reading the guide understand how to build one that's good at the things the class can be good at (which on casual inspection seems to be just melee).See if you're claiming it needs a guide just because of wildshape being too complicated then that's a voice of evidence that the class fails at it's supposed goal of being "beginner friendly" it has a nerfed wildshape supposedly to be easier to understand.
Sadly, you'd HAVE to have a 'shifter wildshaping' guide as they managed to make it MORE complicated and incompatible with 'normal' wildshaping by tossing in the 'wrench' of specific exceptions introduced into each form by UW. "Normal' druid/wildshaping advice must go through the filter of UW before it can help the shifter...
I do wonder, if one were to break down the Shifter's wildshape at the base level (e.g. "you are a bear, at level 6 your stat adjustments are [foo], and you gain these attacks/abilities) if it wouldn't be much clearer. That is, assuming it was prefaced by a brief wildshape primer and was isomorphic to the rules in UW. That seems like a good thing for a shifter guide.
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I do wonder, if one were to break down the Shifter's wildshape at the base level (e.g. "you are a bear, at level 6 your stat adjustments are [foo], and you gain these attacks/abilities) if it wouldn't be much clearer. That is, assuming it was prefaced by a brief wildshape primer and was isomorphic to the rules in UW. That seems like a good thing for a shifter guide.
Yep, if you stat out all the changes and JUST printed what you got without having to look elsewhere, it's be much clearer IMO. Removing the need to look at 2 other books to figure things out would do wonders in making it 'simple'.
I have in my life dedicated some considerable time to reading the polymorph rules and trying to remember them, and to reading guides on them too. Right now I have the Shifter open in one tab, and I still don't know what the class can actually do. If I wanted to know properly (or write my own guide!) what the actual options were and which were the ones I wanted, or how to optimise, I'd have to reference Polymorph, Beast Shape 2, the Shifter entry, and multiple bestiary entries. And that's on top of all the usual feats, traits, equips, etc etc. So as far as "simple" goes, that's a distinct fail.
You think that's rough try an Oozemorph... :P
The usual Wild Shape feats are not even an option...I'm stuck with the most vanilla build options out there it seems....
You think that's rough try an Oozemorph... :P
The usual Wild Shape feats are not even an option...I'm stuck with the most vanilla build options out there it seems....
LOL not being able to move/communicate/interact with items the majority of the day really does simplify things. :P
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Alright, I'm almost done with the introductory guide to the Shifter, but it's past 6 AM and I need to pass out. Hopefully I'll have it up tomorrow afternoon. Feats are obnoxious. The fun Wild Shape feats either require druid levels or unreasonable points into of Wisdom. I'm struggling not to fall back on filler feats like Improved Initiative, Dodge, and Weapon Focus.
Funny enough, scythe and scimitar proficiency actually do a whole lot for the class! Manufactured weapons have more to gain from a no-magic, full-BAB chassis than natural attacks do.
It pains me to see that half of the class' debut archetypes are written in such a way that they'll be illegal in PFS play without some rules modifications or FAQs.
LOL not being able to move/communicate/interact with items the majority of the day really does simplify things. :PYou think that's rough try an Oozemorph... :P
The usual Wild Shape feats are not even an option...I'm stuck with the most vanilla build options out there it seems....
I have that all sorted out, either with liberal RAI, or build choices ;)
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I have that all sorted out, either with liberal RAI, or build choices ;)LOL not being able to move/communicate/interact with items the majority of the day really does simplify things. :PYou think that's rough try an Oozemorph... :P
The usual Wild Shape feats are not even an option...I'm stuck with the most vanilla build options out there it seems....
Oh, there are ways around it but they involve HEAVY table variance [like movement from old race or shapeshifting from old race] and/or taking a race like Lashunta that aren't great stat wise.
So if you're making an oozemorph for a stable group and can iron out what they'll allow the oozemorph to actually do, it could work. For myself, it'd be a hard sell to get one allowed and even if I did it would involve having multiple issues 'patched' just to get to basis functionality. :P
PS: This isn't to say I haven't played around with the archetype: Reptoid worked well as a sidestep character while Lashunta worked as a 'blob' character that gets to spend their starting cash on a custom armored backpack for some lucky PC/pet to carry [they may not be able to wear armor but full cover works].
My issue is that even with the most conservative or liberal read of the rules, there is still way too much left up in the air to make a oozemorph that I'd be confident I could take to a new group and be confident that it'd work as-is.
Rosc, you might also want to consider multiclassing options, since scaling seems to be the Shifter's main problem. For instance, would a shape with several primary natural attacks make a good platform for a Rogue?
If you're jumping off shifter, the best bet is:
Be a skinwalker [Wereboar-Kin] (Ragebred)Take feat for extra Bestial Features so you have 2 hooves and a gore for attacks.
Add 1 level of shifter for shifters claws and at 1st you have 5 attacks, 6 if you take the adopted/tusked traits.
Run from class and take 2nd level as a rogue...
So shifter... great for a dip!!! :P Seriously though, taking enough levels for wildshape is going to cut into sneak attack damage and isn't going to increase the number of attacks you can get: the main benefit to doing so is pounce. So IMO, that'd be a 4th level Weretouched [Deinonychus]: it gets you 5 attacks [2 claws, 2 talons and a bite], 60' move, pounce, scent and low light.
That many attacks and Kinetic fist isn't completely terrible.
Myself, I'd snag the claws someplace else like 1 level of Menhir Guardian, Feral Champion or a plain old witch with Nails Hex. After that, take levels of elementalist shifter. Elemental Strike will add 1d6 to 6d6 and you have the ability to switch elemental types quicker over Kinetic fist's 1d6 to 3d6 and slower gain of new elements.
Just remember to NEVER EVER attempt to engage in combat while wildshaped as you're horribly nerfed is you try: wildshape for them is ONLY for utility.
A one level dip into some kineticist archetype could get you kinetics fist, which would stack with the elementalist, wouldn't it? Plus that should still work if you have to fight while wildshaped as an elemental for whatever reason.
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That many attacks and Kinetic fist isn't completely terrible.Myself, I'd snag the claws someplace else like 1 level of Menhir Guardian, Feral Champion or a plain old witch with Nails Hex. After that, take levels of elementalist shifter. Elemental Strike will add 1d6 to 6d6 and you have the ability to switch elemental types quicker over Kinetic fist's 1d6 to 3d6 and slower gain of new elements.
Just remember to NEVER EVER attempt to engage in combat while wildshaped as you're horribly nerfed is you try: wildshape for them is ONLY for utility.
While a good point, a regular shifter/kineticist will have a lot more options outside of "kinetic fist it to death" as they level up, and have a nice elemental defense, and get to wear any armor they want.
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A one level dip into some kineticist archetype could get you kinetics fist, which would stack with the elementalist, wouldn't it? Plus that should still work if you have to fight while wildshaped as an elemental for whatever reason.
Kinetic Fist, yes, the Elementalist's ability? No. It specifically calls out it doesn't work while under a polmorph effect.
A one level dip into some kineticist archetype could get you kinetics fist, which would stack with the elementalist, wouldn't it? Plus that should still work if you have to fight while wildshaped as an elemental for whatever reason.V
Kinetic Fist, yes, the Elementalist's ability? No. It specifically calls out it doesn't work while under a polmorph effect.
I was just pointing out that, say, a level in elemental ascetic (for 0 burn kinetic fist) could work for menhir guardian/elementalists, since it's not as though the shifter is packed with class features that make more levels of it rewarding. So my example would be if you have to shift to an air elemental to attack a flying enemy, you could still use kinetic fist.
That many attacks and Kinetic fist isn't completely terrible.Myself, I'd snag the claws someplace else like 1 level of Menhir Guardian, Feral Champion or a plain old witch with Nails Hex. After that, take levels of elementalist shifter. Elemental Strike will add 1d6 to 6d6 and you have the ability to switch elemental types quicker over Kinetic fist's 1d6 to 3d6 and slower gain of new elements.
Just remember to NEVER EVER attempt to engage in combat while wildshaped as you're horribly nerfed is you try: wildshape for them is ONLY for utility.
While a good point, a regular shifter/kineticist will have a lot more options outside of "kinetic fist it to death" as they level up, and have a nice elemental defense, and get to wear any armor they want.
Personally I LOATHE burn, so a almost full kineticist is less exciting. That and I do find a lot of utility in the elemental forms and the quicker ability to get elements. It's why I'd go for the 0 burn Fist 1 level dip. That and I think elementalist does the shtick with more damage and more damage options quicker.
That's not to say there isn't some nifty abilities a kineticist can get without burn but elemental forms are pretty nifty too. Unlimited out of combat 60' fly, burrow, swim+breath underwater and/or 50' land speed at base. Add elemental fusion abilities and you have plenty of utility.
As to "nice elemental defense", that depends on your element: some are quite uninspired/unexciting.
As to "wear any armor", that's not much of an issue IMO. You've got light, medium and heavy armors and light/heavy shields, bucklers and tower shields they can wear so you have options and that's without special materials.
Can the elementalist wear metal armor?
Nope, though that's not a big concern as non-metal armors are in every category. 2 non-metal heavy, 3 medium and and 16 light options. Special materials add 3 more heavy and 1 medium. So that's 5 heavy, 4 medium and 16 light options of non-specific armors to use. That and every shield except the dwarven war shield...
IMO that's not really a limitation.
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I find the Elementalist Shifter description confusing. It says you only gain the benefits of Elemental Body I that are listed in the Elemental Aspect descriptions, which does not seem to include the natural attacks, but then the late-game abilities still imply you have slam attacks... what gives?
I'm assuming an elemental has what passes as hands, and it can definitely speak, so in principle spellcasting should be possible...?
Why is the Wildshape only useful for out-of-combat applications? Because your equipment melds into you?
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Oh look, a Shifter guide. Note that it isn't fully optimized, nor is it meant to be a full extensive look at the class. Mostly a broad guide for people who are on the fence as to what class to play.
Rosc, you might also want to consider multiclassing options, since scaling seems to be the Shifter's main problem. For instance, would a shape with several primary natural attacks make a good platform for a Rogue?
I'd consider it, but the rules of the megaguide that I'm writing for prohibit multiclassing. The guides also require Humans for the example builds to show off the classes without needing oddball racial abilites. For what it's worth, I think it's possible to build a competent shifter under these circumstances.
For what it's worth, I think it's possible to build a competent shifter under these circumstances.
Can you make a competent oozemorph under those circumstances?
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I find the Elementalist Shifter description confusing. It says you only gain the benefits of Elemental Body I that are listed in the Elemental Aspect descriptions, which does not seem to include the natural attacks, but then the late-game abilities still imply you have slam attacks... what gives?
Oh, so apparently natural attacks are awarded by polymorph effects as a general rule. Interesting. There's still a bit of clash with the wording «but she gains only the benefits listed in her elemental aspect».
I find the Elementalist Shifter description confusing. It says you only gain the benefits of Elemental Body I that are listed in the Elemental Aspect descriptions, which does not seem to include the natural attacks, but then the late-game abilities still imply you have slam attacks... what gives?
elemental body I doesn't grant natural attack, it being a polymorph spell does. As such, it gets it's slam.
I'm assuming an elemental has what passes as hands, and it can definitely speak, so in principle spellcasting should be possible...?
You could but it's almost 100% focused on melee, so I'm not sure what that brings to the table.
Why is the Wildshape only useful for out-of-combat applications? Because your equipment melds into you?
Because you get a single slam damage unmodified by your Elemental Strike. This means a dramatic drop in number of attacks AND damage.