Shifter guide?


Advice

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I know everyone is secretly waiting for an unchained version, but for the time being - has anyone written a Treantmonk-y guide to the Shifter class?
None on the sticky class guides thread, but there may be ones I'm not aware of.
Please?

PD


Potato disciple wrote:
I know everyone is secretly waiting for an unchained version

What have they released unchained versions of after the publication of Pathfinder Unchained?


Wanting*

Dark Archive

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Wouldn't a shifter optimization guide just link to to a druid guide?


Since you bring it up PD - how about writing one yourself? As a non-spellcaster with a very finite number of options it would be an excellent class for your first class guide.

Liberty's Edge

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Potato disciple wrote:
I know everyone is secretly waiting for an unchained version

What have they released unchained versions of after the publication of Pathfinder Unchained?

Nothing. Yet.

Doesn't mean it couldn't theoretically happen some time in the future.


I don't think they would call it unchained I think they would just keep it named as shifter and patch it.


would love one of these, given how underwhelming the shifter is at present.


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Introduction: Why do you want to play a Shifter?... No, seriously, why? I got nothin'...


Lol be a pretty short just wait for the fiend flesh section

- you have no choices -

XD


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avr wrote:
Since you bring it up PD - how about writing one yourself? As a non-spellcaster with a very finite number of options it would be an excellent class for your first class guide.

You know what? Excelent idea!

"You eat what you are, for you eat everything - Potato Disciple's guide to the Shifter"...

I'll see what I can do.
Seeya!


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A comprehensive shifting guide would include all the shifting archetypes other classes have that are better shifters.

There is no playing this tier 6 NPC class Shifter well. You might as well make a warrior optimization guide.


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I think there's a real chance that any work done on a shifter guide now would be invalidated by the Ultimate Wilderness errata (at least, I hope it would) so it's best to wait.

I think people are in the "hmm... maybe I'm missing something" stage of trying to find shifter builds they like, and aren't ready for an exhaustive survey.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think there's a real chance that any work done on a shifter guide now would be invalidated by the Ultimate Wilderness errata (at least, I hope it would) so it's best to wait.

I think people are in the "hmm... maybe I'm missing something" stage of trying to find shifter builds they like, and aren't ready for an exhaustive survey.

Oh no you're right! well, may as well just do it and edit when time comes for the all expected errata.


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I think if you're drafting a shifter guide right now, the thing to focus on is "here's how wild shape works, here's what you want to do with it, and here are the challenges you have to get around." Since a large part of the draw for the shifter is supposedly "it gets wild shape" but a lot of people don't seem to see this as good enough with what else it gets. They're probably not going to change how wild shape works with the UW errata even if they change how it works for the shifter. A lot of guides that focus on wild shaping/transmutation do so from the perspective of "you can cast spells" which is not really applicable to the shifter.

The only way to do a guide for a class that's actually useful is with good faith in the potential value of the class, after all.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Any more news on this? I'm one of the few people who actually LIKE the Shifter as a class, and am curious to see what kinds of optimization one can make of it.


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cartmanbeck wrote:
Any more news on this? I'm one of the few people who actually LIKE the Shifter as a class, and am curious to see what kinds of optimization one can make of it.

It sounds like there are not enough working parts in place at the moment to make a class guide feasible.

Once they start getting some of the FAQ's addressed and errata some of the mechanics it may be doable.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

nighttree wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:
Any more news on this? I'm one of the few people who actually LIKE the Shifter as a class, and am curious to see what kinds of optimization one can make of it.

It sounds like there are not enough working parts in place at the moment to make a class guide feasible.

Once they start getting some of the FAQ's addressed and errata some of the mechanics it may be doable.

I mean, the only part of it that really needs an FAQ, from what I've seen of the (extremely long) discussions, is the Oozemorph (and its movement speed). Is there a part of the vanilla shifter that really needs an FAQ before it can be used? I would offer to start writing up a guide myself if I wasn't so busy with other projects at the moment.

Shadow Lodge

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Oozemorph as written gives you no way to intereact with anything. No movement speed, no senses, ect...

Scarab Sages

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I know there is a lot of hate our there for the Shifter, but I like the class. It does everything that I always wanted the druid to do.

Things I'd love to see in a guide:
- Maximizing natural weapon attacks (feats, items, multi-class dips, everything that will increase your number and damage of attacks)
- Wild Shape for dummies (the Shifter is already wild shape on easy, but the items, feats, and traits that make it better aren't readily apparent to newbies)
- Archetypes guide (some of the archetypes are both subtle and complex, far more so than the base class)


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Belabras wrote:
It does everything that I always wanted the druid to do.

I'm curious, what the shifter does that a druid doesn't/can't in your opinion?

cartmanbeck wrote:
Is there a part of the vanilla shifter that really needs an FAQ before it can be used? I would offer to start writing up a guide myself if I wasn't so busy with other projects at the moment.

Well there is some sections where info is missing, like owl and fly speed: shifter forms ONLY give you what it says and it doesn't mention fly speed.


cartmanbeck wrote:
I mean, the only part of it that really needs an FAQ, from what I've seen of the (extremely long) discussions, is the Oozemorph (and its movement speed). Is there a part of the vanilla shifter that really needs an FAQ before it can be used? I would offer to start writing up a guide myself if I wasn't so busy with other projects at the moment.

I can't really see a point to a guide on the base Shifter.

There is currently not enough flexibility to warrant a guide as near as I can tell. You have claw's, take whatever feats you can to max out your to hit and damage....that's about it.

But yes there are some grey rules even in the base class.

Weretouched seems to work as intended, but again, it's not like there is a wide range of builds and options...so I can't imagine someone taking the time and energy to make a guide for it currently.

Oozmorph.....needs a lot of clarification and hopefully some errata.

I'm not a guide writer....but right now I would imagine a lot of gold, and a lot of red.....and the occasional green...

But who know's, someone might take it as a challenge....I would be interested to see what they came up with ;)

Scarab Sages

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graystone wrote:
Belabras wrote:
It does everything that I always wanted the druid to do.

I'm curious, what the shifter does that a druid doesn't/can't in your opinion?

Be a martial class focused on natural weapons with some access to wild shape and general wilderness abilities, without the overhead of spell lists or animal companions. I know that makes them less flexible and powerful in the eyes of many, but that’s what does it for me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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Belabras wrote:
Be a martial class focused on natural weapons with some access to wild shape and general wilderness abilities, without the overhead of spell lists or animal companions. I know that makes them less flexible and powerful in the eyes of many, but that’s what does it for me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So it's basically the full BAB? You can dump WIS or just only take heal spells if you don't want to 'deal' with checking spells and companions are only one of three options, with domains and herbalism as excellent options. IMO, removing spells and companions from a druid still does a shifter better than a shifter.

So I'm looking at shifters as "less flexible and powerful" JUST with the shifting material and not including the spells and companion. And on top of it, it manages to make the actual wildshaping more complicated by making you look at the wilderness book, the spell AND the animal where a druid only looks at the spell and the animal...

Now I'm not really trying to get you to change your mind or anything, but I'm seeing some people saying they like the class and I can't help but wonder why. It doesn't win at simple so it seems like BAB is the draw?

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:

So it's basically the full BAB? You can dump WIS or just only take heal spells if you don't want to 'deal' with checking spells and companions are only one of three options, with domains and herbalism as excellent options. IMO, removing spells and companions from a druid still does a shifter better than a shifter.

I don't feel that way, but I understand that you do.

Grand Lodge

Belabras wrote:
Be a martial class focused on natural weapons with some access to wild shape and general wilderness abilities, without the overhead of spell lists or animal companions. I know that makes them less flexible and powerful in the eyes of many, but that’s what does it for me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hey man I've got just the class for you. Beastkin Beserker Barabarian does all of that better than the Shifter.

Scarab Sages

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I guess I should clarify: I came to this thread because I'm interested in different ways to build the Shifter and what the class can do.

I have no interest in a debate as to whether some other class build or archetype combo can do it 'better'. There are already plenty of threads for that.


Belabras wrote:

I guess I should clarify: I came to this thread because I'm interested in different ways to build the Shifter and what the class can do.

I have no interest in a debate as to whether some other class build or archetype combo can do it 'better'. There are already plenty of threads for that.

I would be interested in hearing that as well.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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I’m also interested in the shifter and I’m not concerned with other classes doing better.


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Shifter Guide:
Accept that you aren't good and check with team that you're okay to be subpar. Play with whatever animal you want. done.

Other than that, look at the wildshape section of druid and find the animal forms that most closely match what they are using. done.

The shifter brings nothing really "new" to the table, that's why there's not much to say on it.


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I feel like it's *really* important that anybody who writes a Shifter Guide avoids the urge to point out "Man, this class isn't good" every third sentence, because there's a Kineticist Guide like that and that one is frankly embarrassing to read now that people have figured out what's good about that class.


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Hi guys! I am still pushing through with the guide, however, as many of you stated this guide features many more dips and feat guidelines and so on and it is taking me awhile.

PD


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Potato disciple wrote:

Hi guys! I am still pushing through with the guide, however, as many of you stated this guide features many more dips and feat guidelines and so on and it is taking me awhile.

PD

Sweet. Looking forward to it!


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I'd be interested in finding out how to make a Wolf Shifter be good. I don't pick a class and then find the best race or items to max it out, I take a character concept and then make a character.

I read endless threads in advice mentioning items I never see and races I'd never use. I'd be looking to play an Elf or Human Shifter (Wolf Aspect). At 1st level it seems...lacklustre. In fact it looks lacklustre for a bunch of levels and then looks worse. It seems there's a feat (Shifter's Edge) I need - (why isn't that a class feature?) or am I missing something.

Any advice on other feats to make this class at least...hold it's own?... be somewhat enjoyable??? Dunno really. I don't mind being outshined, or not the DPR champ - I just want something I can wrap a wild/feral savage concept around. I want to like the Shifter, but I can't. Maybe a Guide will help.

(And no, I don't want to play Kobold Press' Shapeshifter or Legendary Games Legendary Shifter - which adds another bite attack, but is still prescriptive for "shapes"/animals without claws or a bite.


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
I'd be interested in finding out how to make a Wolf Shifter be good. I don't pick a class and then find the best race or items to max it out, I take a character concept and then make a character.

This is me as well :P


Potato disciple wrote:

Hi guys! I am still pushing through with the guide, however, as many of you stated this guide features many more dips and feat guidelines and so on and it is taking me awhile.

PD

I'm interested to see what you come up with.


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Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

I'd be interested in finding out how to make a Wolf Shifter be good. I don't pick a class and then find the best race or items to max it out, I take a character concept and then make a character.

I read endless threads in advice mentioning items I never see and races I'd never use. I'd be looking to play an Elf or Human Shifter (Wolf Aspect). At 1st level it seems...lacklustre. In fact it looks lacklustre for a bunch of levels and then looks worse. It seems there's a feat (Shifter's Edge) I need - (why isn't that a class feature?) or am I missing something.

Any advice on other feats to make this class at least...hold it's own?... be somewhat enjoyable??? Dunno really. I don't mind being outshined, or not the DPR champ - I just want something I can wrap a wild/feral savage concept around. I want to like the Shifter, but I can't. Maybe a Guide will help.

(And no, I don't want to play Kobold Press' Shapeshifter or Legendary Games Legendary Shifter - which adds another bite attack, but is still prescriptive for "shapes"/animals without claws or a bite.

Shifter's edge is only useful if using dex to attack and str to damage, which isn't often the case for people. The only other thing maybe helpful for them is Mutated Shape feat, it requires 19 wisdom and bab 6 but it'll give you another natural attack.

but you're not missing anything, if you want a feral savage that shapeshifts there's lots of alternatives in Paizo.

But your wolf would probably be, Human, stat line of 18/14/14/9/14/7 or if you don't like negatives 18/14/14/10/10/10
You'll want to grab armor and if planning on using wolf form, get some barding for that form, you'd need a SUPER high wisdom for armor to not be the better choice.
At lv4 in human form with claws you'd have 4+str(4)=+8/+8 to hit for 1d4+4 damage a hit vs 4+str(6)-1(size)=+9 for 2d6+9 and a free trip whenever you hit.
At lv5 you probably should take Bull for it's minor bonus to be able to increase your str for some more attack and damage.
After this there's nothing more for you to choose really if you're planning on being a wolf, grab tiger for the dex boost for when chimaric aspect.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If one *only* wants to transform into a wolf, isn’t the weretouched archetype the way to go?


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Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

I'd be interested in finding out how to make a Wolf Shifter be good. I don't pick a class and then find the best race or items to max it out, I take a character concept and then make a character.

I read endless threads in advice mentioning items I never see and races I'd never use. I'd be looking to play an Elf or Human Shifter (Wolf Aspect). At 1st level it seems...lacklustre. In fact it looks lacklustre for a bunch of levels and then looks worse. It seems there's a feat (Shifter's Edge) I need - (why isn't that a class feature?) or am I missing something.

Any advice on other feats to make this class at least...hold it's own?... be somewhat enjoyable??? Dunno really. I don't mind being outshined, or not the DPR champ - I just want something I can wrap a wild/feral savage concept around. I want to like the Shifter, but I can't. Maybe a Guide will help.

(And no, I don't want to play Kobold Press' Shapeshifter or Legendary Games Legendary Shifter - which adds another bite attack, but is still prescriptive for "shapes"/animals without claws or a bite.

I feel like a Mooncursed Barbarian would fit your character concept pretty well, actually.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I'll be interested to read the guide as well.


I don't quite know the specifics of the shifter, but I know warpriest can be handy for natural attack builds since you can up the damage for something with sacred weapon. If you're allowing to take four levels for something else, martial versatility can apply to all natural weapons.


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I feel also like "six levels of Oozemorph, something else thereafter" is worth exploring. Since once you've got 3 uses of the Oozemorph's Wild Shape that last 6 hours each, you can stay bipedal for the whole day so long as you sleep in a bucket. This also gets you DR 6/Slashing, Compression, 3 primary natural weapons, and a climb speed.

So you fulfill the whole "concept of an ooze person" with none of the downsides and there's not a lot else in the class for you (if you stick out two more levels you'll get an extra 2 DR, but slashing is a common damage type).

The question is "where do you go from there". Assuming the Oozemorph with 3 morphic weapons qualifies for multiattack, you can make a fair number of attacks this way.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel also like "six levels of Oozemorph, something else thereafter" is worth exploring. Since once you've got 3 uses of the Oozemorph's Wild Shape that last 6 hours each, you can stay bipedal for the whole day so long as you sleep in a bucket. This also gets you DR 6/Slashing, Compression, 3 primary natural weapons, and a climb speed.

So you fulfill the whole "concept of an ooze person" with none of the downsides and there's not a lot else in the class for you (if you stick out two more levels you'll get an extra 2 DR, but slashing is a common damage type).

The question is "where do you go from there". Assuming the Oozemorph with 3 morphic weapons qualifies for multiattack, you can make a fair number of attacks this way.

I multiclassed into Metamorph/Alchemist for my character concept.

Only did 3 levels of Oozmorph.

Paizo Employee Web Production Manager

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Removed a post and the response to it. The Advice subforum is intended to be a resource for advice. If what you're posting isn't actually advice, take it elsewhere. It is totally inappropriate to post gross inflammatory commentary in this way.


nighttree wrote:

I multiclassed into Metamorph/Alchemist for my character concept.

Only did 3 levels of Oozmorph.

To me I think 6 levels is the sweet spot, since it gets you your third morphic weapon (so you're now eligible for Multiattack, probably) so you can now use weapons- morphic and otherwise - with some effectiveness.

This also puts you in "hey, take a prestige class" territory if any of them are really constructively compatible with the base chassis. There isn't a deity whose favored weapon is "Natural" is there? For purposes of the Sentinel PrC, that is.

Grand Lodge

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I am amused at the idea of an oozemorph/horizon walker.


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Oozemorph 6, Horizon Walker 3 with the dimensional agility feats is probably the best way to get pounce on an Oozewalker. That might be fun.

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