Can you get both Deific Obedience and Celestial Obedience at the same time?


Rules Questions


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

As the title asks... Is it legal to have both?


HWalsh wrote:
As the title asks... Is it legal to have both?

Huh, that's an interesting notion. Maybe as a Master Chymist where one personality worships an Empyreal Lord and the other worships a deity.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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I don't know if it would do you much good unless you can find a deity with both sets of boons, since there might be some issues with trying to get the same boons twice. (And that's assuming you can even get those boons with the "wrong" feat, which is contentious and inadequately supported at best.)

Fiendish Obedience plus Deific Obedience, on the other hand...


For example:

You worship Arshae and Shelyn...

Could you Deific Obedience to Shelyn and Celestial to Arshae?

Their teachings don't conflict, they have the same alignment, they're technically allies...


Note: The Pantheistic Blessing feat seems to indicate that you can worship more than one God or Goddess at a time...


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Though not explicitly stated, there is a general trend of "you can't benefit from worshiping more than one being".

Which means no, you couldn't do what you're asking since deities don't have celestial obediences and empyreal lords don't have deific.

Edit: One can worship Pantheons, but they are treated like individual deities for the purposes of receiving benefits typically. The mechanics of worship aren't well enumerated.

Silver Crusade

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Also Faith and Philosophies specifically calls out that Clerics can't take the Pantheistic Blessing feat.


Rysky wrote:
Also Faith and Philosophies specifically calls out that Clerics can't take the Pantheistic Blessing feat.

But Clerics aren't Paladins or Oracles.


HWalsh wrote:
But Clerics aren't Paladins or Oracles.

And indeed Oracles are called out in the APG as " Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs. " So I don't see why it shouldn't work for them.


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Either they venerate their portfolios gods, or they stay up at night agonizing over whether their Fire mystery was from Asmodeus or Sarenrae..

Silver Crusade

I personally don't see why not... I mean, for example, I don't see Desna getting angry if one of her devotees combines that devotion with a devotion to Black Butterfly. I think it's up to your GM if your divine patrons are cool with your divided loyalties. In the end, a god is that much more powerful than an empyreal lord, that they shouldn't feel threatened by one another.

It's just like your colonell wouldn't begrudge you to be loyal to your sergeant major... Why would they?

Rules wise, I don't think it's overpowered. It takes a second feat, after all, and requires a second daily devotion. If you get your party to wait that long upon you, each and every morning, than why not?

But that's the thing, isn't it? I've got a gnome kineticist who powers up his daily defences as a full round action. If he would be paired with a cleric who needs an hour for their spells and two more hours for their two devotions, he'll have solved half the adventure by himself by the time his cleric friend starts. Or would have gotten so much trouble on his head that cleric friend won't get to complete their obediences...

Silver Crusade

Viondar wrote:
It's just like your colonell wouldn't begrudge you to be loyal to your sergeant major... Why would they?

There's a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle bit of difference between your boss's boss and something you pledge your soul and afterlife to.


Viondar wrote:

If you get your party to wait that long upon you, each and every morning, than why not?

But that's the thing, isn't it? I've got a gnome kineticist who powers up his daily defences as a full round action. If he would be paired with a cleric who needs an hour for their spells and two more hours for their two devotions, he'll have solved half the adventure by himself by the time his cleric friend starts. Or would have gotten so much trouble on his head that cleric friend won't get to complete their obediences...

This is one of the situations where saving sleep time with a ring of sustenance really is the answer.

Silver Crusade

Of course, but that's 2000 gp and a ring slot! It all balances out in the end ;)

Unless, of course, said impatient party member has the same ring, as happens to be the case, here, but combating that is just a roleplaying thing :D


Desna would probably be fine with it. The issue is whether the Black Butterfly would. She would invest you with a part of her power, and it is still quite likely your soul would go to Desna. What you'd need to do is ASK both of them, there are ways.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

There is a general understanding that who you worship is a single god or in the case of pantheons a prepackaged package of gods. You can’t mix and match your pantheon and if you could, then your are worshiping ”Arshae and Shelyn” and not Arshae nor Shelyn.

As this deviates a lot from convention, it is entirely an Ask your GM question.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

“You are” not “your”. Bad cell phone auto correct!


Snakers wrote:
Either they venerate their portfolios gods, or they stay up at night agonizing over whether their Fire mystery was from Asmodeus or Sarenrae..

Do we know for sure that on Golarion it's gods that go around creating oracles and not something else? Like we know that "Domains" have an existence separate from the deities that grant them, since Curchanus had the Beast domain and then Lamashtu took it from him, so it's conceivable that mysteries have a similar separate existence. It could be some nascent consciousness of "fire" or other anthropic personification that was trying to reach out and grant you power, but made a mistake and cursed you by accident.

Like it's possible for "the collective unconsciousness" to be a witch patron, so "you are cursed/empowered by some aspect of fire, time, wood, metal, etc. itself that is not a god" seems possible. "Fire itself" isn't the sort of thing that would demand, accept, or benefit from being worshipped, but some of the fire deities and demigods will be happy to take over from there.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
But Clerics aren't Paladins or Oracles.
And indeed Oracles are called out in the APG as " Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs. " So I don't see why it shouldn't work for them.

I'm not even certain why that line is there. Oracles have no requirement to worship anything. You can hate the powers that Cursed you With Awesome and still get to toss divine magic and rock your unwanted revelations.


Can we get an Official FAQ on this?


Also interested.
There are situations where it feels like it would make sense.
And corner cases like Lamashtu.


I will note that the Evangelist, Exalted and Sentinel prestige classes all have the requirement that you must worship a single, specific deity. However, if you could only ever worship a single specific deity, wouldn't this be redundant as a requirement?

Interestingly enough, the Mystery Cultist prestige class doesn't have nearly as stringent of a requirement. It just requires that you worship an Empyreal Lord, without requiring it to be just a single specific one, nor does it require that you worship no other gods/deities besides the noted Empyreal Lord.


Viondar wrote:

I personally don't see why not... I mean, for example, I don't see Desna getting angry if one of her devotees combines that devotion with a devotion to Black Butterfly. I think it's up to your GM if your divine patrons are cool with your divided loyalties. In the end, a god is that much more powerful than an empyreal lord, that they shouldn't feel threatened by one another.

It's just like your colonell wouldn't begrudge you to be loyal to your sergeant major... Why would they?

Rules wise, I don't think it's overpowered. It takes a second feat, after all, and requires a second daily devotion. If you get your party to wait that long upon you, each and every morning, than why not?

But that's the thing, isn't it? I've got a gnome kineticist who powers up his daily defences as a full round action. If he would be paired with a cleric who needs an hour for their spells and two more hours for their two devotions, he'll have solved half the adventure by himself by the time his cleric friend starts. Or would have gotten so much trouble on his head that cleric friend won't get to complete their obediences...

If the colonel and the sergeant major are in the same chain of command it is not a problem. But if they are in different chain of commands it is a big problem. For example if are a private in the army and you follow the orders of an air force captain over those of the army sergeant, that may be a problem. Even when they are both part of the military of the same country.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Kaouse wrote:
Can we get an Official FAQ on this?

I would not expect this. This is a case where there's no real mechanical reason that they might conflict, just a potential flavor one - which means it should only be disallowed or allowed on a case-by-case basis, and should be justified as such by the player and gm - like any feat selection really.


But you agree that, by RAW, this should work, right?


This thread just makes me hope that for PF2 they simply outright state you can only benefit from the worship of one deity, and if you want to venerate a pantheon that it has a specific portfolios and benefits (like worshiping a specific deity would).

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