So Empyreal Lords are demigods?
While I do want to second the idea that Black Butterfly would just harass a party during its entire lifespan until they died of attrition...how much damage can an Antipaladin Archer with Overwatch Style put into her if she pokes her head out? And can we get them to beat her Stealth Check?
So Empyreal Lords are demigods?
Yes.
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fighter with the disruption feat line will shut that down
Teleport Tactician does indeed shut this down if someone has it. Or it does assuming it hits and does something like 66 damage in an AMF.
Looking at it, that's pretty close to impossible (I'm coming up with a max damage in the mid 50s or thereabouts on most Fighters, which leaves her with a 50% shot or thereabouts).
Math: Weapon Dice (9 average, 16 max) + Power Attack (18) + 1.5 x Str (15) + Weapon Training (4) + Weapon Specialization (2) + Greater Weapon Specialization (2) + Favored Foe (2) = max 59, average 52. So a critical would definitely shut her down, and a high damage roll will do so pretty well...but an average damage roll causes her to need only a 9 on the die for Concentration to succeed and keep her spell.
There's probably a way or three to boost that a little, but not all that much.
She could also probably Acrobatics her way through a foe and has pretty good odds of auto-succeeding with a +51 Acrobatics. Somebody is gonna have CMD 47 or less in an AMF (since in an AMF, you pretty much get BAB, Str, Dex, and any Dodge bonuses to CMD and almost nothing else). Once past them, she can't use Silence Between but can teleport.
Random NPC 9143 already had a +54 to Perception (or +56?). Throw on a CL 16 Acute Senses and they're up to +84. Probably a few more bits and bobs you can pick up to make it higher. Or, as I said last time, be a real class instead of an adept.
So I don't think Stealth is a real defense. It's possible (if not easy) to beat it and more to the point it's possible to beat it with one of her weaknesses (someone capable of alpha striking her with a spell). It's not even specialized for this, all it requires is a single buff spell to make it possible.
Oh, I wasn't saying it was absolute by any means, just noting that they'd definitely need to have such a spell in their repertoire (or some other specialized option for that purpose) in order to do so.
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Though I will note that, post clarification that she's immune to her own AMF, alpha-strikes of this sort are no longer on her weakness list in a meaningful fashion unless you somehow manage to catch her unsuspecting while she's hanging out. Even there unless you actually sneak up on her, you need to beat +44 Initiative (via Moment of Prescience) or she'll just put it up.
Demigods do indeed count as deities for the purposes of being unaffected by antimagic fields.
Quasi-deities (including characters with the Divine Source mythic ability) do not.
Well, that answers that, and takes Forcecage away as a meaningful tactic (she teleports out with Interplanetary Teleport or dismisses it with Mage's Disjunction). It also makes alpha-striking her with magic very difficult. Mage's Disjunction also makes using spells to get to the Perception necessary to find her tricky (though by no means impossible since she only has one use of it).
Which leaves full ranged attacks from people with sky-high Perception as pretty close to the only recourse for dealing with her. Such people will thus be her first targets. Any ranged character who can't make a DC 37 Fort Save reliably is thus likely screwed, since she'll just melee them and use her touch, which takes them right out.
None of this is impossible, but it's a pretty hard row to hoe.
so what constitutes being a demi god then? and what constitutes being a god is it just a cr number? cuz if that's the case many of my designed not to be any were near demigod level/god level npcs of cr 70+ would then have to go about an change a whole swack of stuff especially my cr 250+ planet breaker who while vastly powerful i would not consider a deity or anywhere near a deity nor a demigodDemigods do indeed count as deities for the purposes of being unaffected by antimagic fields.
Quasi-deities (including characters with the Divine Source mythic ability) do not.
This has been stated previously:
Quasi-Deities are creatures with Mythic Ranks and the Divine Source Mythic Ability. There are several in the setting, and they often have things like a Class Level and Templates as well as a listed number of Mythic Ranks.
Demigods are unique creatures (usually Outsiders except for the Great Old Ones) with high numbers of Racial HD and one of the subtypes like Empyreal Lord or Demon Lord, as well as a variety of unique abilities. They're unique creatures, not something with a Class Level and Mythic Ranks. They grant 4 Domains.
Full Deities have no CR, and indeed no stats. Mortals cannot directly oppose them in a meaningful fashion (indirect opposition is another matter). They grant 5 Domains.
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Sure.
The Relics of Kazavon don't do a lot to help out, though. I mean, the Bound Blade will get +11 to the above damage to make Teleport Tactician worth it (which defnitively does make it worth it), but that's about it. It doesn't even get through her DR or Regeneration. The Staff of the Slain is technically Epic for DR purposes, but it's still not Evil, so that matters little (and the Bound Blade has the opposite problem, where it's Evil but not Epic).
None of the others offer a bonus to Saves, or more than +4 AC above mundane equipment, or have damaging effects that apply to her unless she rolls a 1 on a Save.
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Uh...I never argued a High-Tier Mythic Party couldn't take her. They absolutely can. My argument has always and explicitly been about how much trouble a non-Mythic party is in.
In her home realm she has some stuff that might give a Mythic Party pause, but in the end I'd expect a Mythic party to wreck her and have never said otherwise.
So that is how we run it. If those tactics are removed, which we all know there are some problems in Mythic, then suddenly this enemy becomes much harder.
Not really
I already showed you had to 1000+ damage with your rules interpretation on a barely optimised Barbarian.A proper nasty multiclasses DPR martial build would easily eclipse that.
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Which leaves full ranged attacks from people with sky-high Perception as pretty close to the only recourse for dealing with her.Bewildering Koan still works through an antimagic field!
True. Though I think she can still 5 foot step while Koan'd, since it loses you your next action, not your next turn. I think. I'm really not sure how that works, to be honest. The wording is odd.
...an ability that can be active at most 60% of the time doesn't shut down anything without the ability to choose when to activate it (divinations, usually). The Black Butterfly doesn't have anything like that. I mean, there's probably something in her Realm but now we're back to "the GM can make up some stuff that makes her harder to kill". Also given that she has no way to know when she'd need it, why would she keep it up the full 14 hours? Is she really going to leave herself without it 10 hours of every day?
Not that it matters for us as even if she does use it all the time there's still a 40% chance that Random NPC 9143 bumps into her without it and turns her into a hedgehog. It's not a small window. It's almost half of any day. Again, assuming she spams it and doesn't leave one in reserve in case she needs it (in which case she'd only have it up 9.33 hours every day).
So no, AMF is not the silver bullet you seem to think it is.
Well, what ability does your Random NPC 9143 have to sneak up on Black Butterfly? Because with Perception +50 and True Seeing, she's pretty well set to see you coming before you get in range (your range on Baleful Polymorph can't be more than 60 feet or so).
And you certainly can't use divinations to find her either, what with the Mind Blank. So...how are you finding a wandering deity outside her home realm (in her home realm, this whole tactic will likely fail for various reasons just starting with her ability to burn a Mythic Point for +1d12 on the Save) and then sneaking up on her?
If you do sneak up on her outside her home realm, sure, that works in theory. I just feel like that's a big 'if'.
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Yeah, the wording is odd. Fortunately, there's a clarification from Sean K Reynolds that the target indeed loses its next turn.
Cool. That'd work, then. Of course, she has +50 Sense Motive, but that just means you need a +70 Bluff or so, and that's totally doable at 20th.
Well, I think this whole discussion is predicated on the assumption that the two individuals cross paths at some point. I mean, sure, we could just say that the most reasonable outcome is that they never meet or interact, but that would kind of defeat the point of the conversation, right? So we can just say that they eventually run into each other, and when they do they'll both be surrounded by big spheres of inky darkness that do nothing to shield them from one another's sight.
My point is rather that Black Butterfly is more likely to ambush Random NPC 9143 rather than the reverse, and that she's very likely to spot him before he spots her, which buys a round of prep. Only if he somehow knows where she is and sneaks up on her while she's not sneaking is that not the case...and that strikes me as a highly unlikely scenario.
At that point, it just comes down to initiative, and as we've already established 9143 can easily win.
Easily is a bit of an overstatement. Black Butterfly can get a +44 Initiative with Moment of Prescience. +54 in deep space.
No, the letter of the ability specifically says 'any effect that would reduce her movement speed'. It doesn't say 'restrict', it doesn't say 'impede' (like freedom of movement does). The 'spirit' of the ability then goes on to state the part about 5-foot steps, but taken in context with the rest of the sentence, is clearly meant to be read as pertaining to effects that would accomplish the same effect (other than movement reduction, such as making movement through a square cost more) that would make her 5-foot steps into not-5-foot-steps.
I disagree strongly with that interpretation. Celestial Grace specifically prohibits anything from preventing her from taking 5 foot steps. I agree that doesn't help if she loses actions entirely and doesn't help if basic game rules keep her from doing so (ie: having already moved, being surrounded), but an imposed condition like grapple is another story. Conditions like that can't impose effects you're immune to...and she's immune to things preventing 5 foot steps.
But this is all basically meaningless in practice, anyway, since she does in fact have Freedom of Movement and I'm pretty sure all abilities that cancel that are supernatural or spells (certainly the Tetori's is Supernatural), which means that in an AMF she is ungrapple-able (since she's immune to her own AMF).
Demigods do indeed count as deities for the purposes of being unaffected by antimagic fields.
Quasi-deities (including characters with the Divine Source mythic ability) do not.
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Yes, it is pretty clear that even if she is forbidden from taking any actions, she's forbidden from taking a 5ft step, thus she can. So she can do this while dazed, or under any other condition save for straight up dead so long as the power exists.
I'm not actually 100% sure that she can do this while prevented from acting (such as while dazed).
I am 100% sure she can do it if she has the ability to act and something is just forcing her to not move somehow (like grapple or being entangled).
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Why? 9143 has a better perception. A "see her even in Stealth" perception if we include a buff spell.
Sure...but what Stealth does he have? Because if you have a Stealth result of 20, Black Butterfly spots you at least 300 feat out (assuming she rolls a 1), while a Perception of +90 only spots Black Butterfly at 370 feet...and that's assuming you roll a 20 and she rolls a 1 (a 1/400 chance). He'd need a lot of raw Stealth to beat her out on this.
My point is that, absent a higher Stealth than I think he possesses, he'll absolutely spot her...but not until after she's spotted him. Which gives her a round of prep.
I'll be honest, I'm not sure how 9143 gets anywhere. They're an Adept. They don't get Teleport or Plane Shift. They can use almost any scroll they need (up to CL 17) but the hows and whys of this combat are nonexistent. Mostly because, again, that's not what this thread is. This thread is about fighting Black Butterfly. Not reaching her, not what's in her lair, not a fully fleshed out anything. It's the equivalent of mashing two action figures together.
I'm aware of the point of the thread. My point is that assuming you start them both in equivalent situations where they actually have to approach each other, the odds of him getting the drop on her go way down. This is even more true of a PC group, since the odds of them all having good Stealth are low.
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Yep, that drunken gnome philosopher I linked from the Beastmass a little ways back has a +85. Can't really do anything to a koaned Black Butterfly himself, but throw in a decent teammate and he's good to go.
That'd do it. Assuming she's alone (which we are for this exercise), anyway.
Eh, using moment of prescience on an initiative check is sketchy at best. It's an ability check, yes, but the spell only works on opposed ability checks, and the rules give us a pretty clear definition of when a check counts as opposed: when "the attempt is successful if your check result exceeds the result of the target." That's not how initiative works, you don't "succeed" on your check whenever you get a higher result than someone. Initiative checks don't even have success or failure conditions, you just roll and then act in order from highest to lowest.
I'd personally allow it, but RAW you're probably right. That said, my primary argument has always been that it's really hard to wind up in a situation with Black Butterfly where she doesn't know you're coming before you know she is, which gives her a bit of time pre-initiative.
I feel like that point remains valid.
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Black Butterfly can spend 13 hours a day, of the 16 she's active, in AMF. Meaning you have a less than 3 hour window per day where she's vulnerable to magical attack.
It's 14 hours, actually...but if she doesn't keep one use in reserve she's being silly (and going against her Wis 30). That drops it to 9 hours, 20 minutes of constant AMF a day. Given that there are 24 hours in a day and nothing preventing attacking her in her downtime, that's only a bit more than 1/3 of the time.
It's certainly gonna be on any time she's remotely expecting trouble, though. Which is where all my questions on how people expect to ambush her come in.
EDIT: Oh, on another subject, she can shut down Bewildering Koan, though it hurts to do and requires her to have advance info. Ki is a (Su) ability and thus can't be used/spent in an AMF. If she can get right on top of the Monk and keep them from getting away until she's taken them out she can prevent this tactic. Note that this stops Ki from being spent, not stops the Koan (which is technically not Supernatural in and of itself and will thus work on people in an AMF the Gnome is outside of).
That necessitates sticking in melee and foregoing her usual hit and run stuff, though.
Personally, as a GM I might rule Bewildering Koan as Supernatural just because of the Ki thing, but that is not RAW.
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Better question: How is anyone going to FIND her? Constant Mind Blank and an ill defined domain makes the thing basically impossible to locate, let alone ambush. Near as I can tell anyway, there's no satisfactory way for a PC party to even get to step 1 (get in same room as target) of the fight barring blind luck, artifact screwiness, or your GM just shrugging his shoulders and letting it happen.
Or them setting up and waiting for her somewhere they know she's gonna be based on mundane investigative methods.
Or invading the place she's currently hanging out, either with advance knowledge she's there, or more likely no such knowledge at all (the latter is an awful thing to do to your players as a GM and may result in a TPK...it is also hilarious).
It's doable in theory...but not easy at all. And, like I said, she's very likely to be expecting trouble and have AMF up in any situation where the PCs might run into her.
Wouldn't Bewildering Koan be stopped by Silence Between? Don't you need to actually ask a question for it to work?
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Wouldn't Bewildering Koan be stopped by Silence Between? Don't you need to actually ask a question for it to work?
Black Butterfly has Truespeech and thus understands all forms of sign language. The Gnome would need to speak at least one such form, but that's hardly difficult at 20th level.
So it works if the Gnome is sufficiently prepped (and, in fairness, a Bewildering Koan build is gonna have 20 ranks in Linguistics, so that's not super unlikely).
That necessitates sticking in melee and foregoing her usual hit and run stuff, though.
Not necessarily. Using Silence Between to simply move 10' to the other side of the Monk is still gonna let her Stealth to the same effectiveness (though not counting crazy distance penalties) as if she went 150' away.
Yes, it is pretty clear that even if she is forbidden from taking any actions, she's forbidden from taking a 5ft step, thus she can. So she can do this while dazed, or under any other condition save for straight up dead so long as the power exists.I'm not actually 100% sure that she can do this while prevented from acting (such as while dazed).
I am 100% sure she can do it if she has the ability to act and something is just forcing her to not move somehow (like grapple or being entangled).
There is no way she can 5 foot step when unable to act. Unless We say she can 5 foot step even when unconscious or dead.
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That necessitates sticking in melee and foregoing her usual hit and run stuff, though.Not necessarily. Using Silence Between to simply move 10' to the other side of the Monk is still gonna let her Stealth to the same effectiveness (though not counting crazy distance penalties) as if she went 150' away.
She needs to do a little more than just be in melee to lock the gnome down, IMO. I'm not sure how possible it is if she doesn't take him out (or nearly take him out) in a round, actually.
And anyway, him being within 10 feet of her is a pretty big reveal on her possible locations.
That said, her melee DPR on the gnome shown is definitely high enough to take him out in a round in an AMF (especially if you switch him out to Antipaladin...why else would they be fighting?), so if she knows to target him and manages an ambush (possible but not assured) she can stop the Koan that way...but then, we knew that already about any ability that can take her out.
Actually...she can Moment of Prescience and maybe survive the Koan the first round (likelihood is around 14%...higher if she has a few items to raise Sense Motive, a very real possibility with her unspent wealth...a +5 gets her to a 30% chance, higher bonuses make it better), so this is a very real theoretical possibility if that scenario unfolds. Not a high likelihood one absent items, though.
Question
What happens to creation conjuration effects that enter an AMF after they’ve been created?
I’m pretty sure sinc they’re already exist they remain? A bit like planar blinded creatures?
Bound Creatures and instantaneous conjurations remain.
I was thinking of suggesting use dazing elemental geyser to lock her down however sadly the water droplets are not instantaneous as far as i know.
Why bother with Dazing. Just kill her.
Caustic erruption is an instantaneous conjuration with a radius burst of 20ft so you cast the conjuration outside the butterfly’s AMF.
Draconic/Orc + blood havoc = 2 Damage for every dice
Magical lineage reduce the metamagic cost by 1.
Generic spell perfection build with Spell focus, Element focus, Spell pen and there greater and Mythic brothers.
Get a orange prism ion stone and spell specialisation and your CL is 25 on Caustic erruption.
Cast two Intensified empowered caustic eruptions. One with a rod of quickening.
Damage is 50D6+100x1.5
=412
Use channel power
412x1.5= 618.
Takes 24D6+48x1.5
x1.5 again if she fails her saves. For each of the following 2 rounds.
(12D6+24 each)
Radius burst so don’t even need to know where she is to target her, just with a 20ft radius, which you will know from her attacking you.
DC10+19+7+4+2+6=48
(Cha 48, 20 Base + 6 headband + 5 wish + 5 Level + 10 Mythic + 2 Mythic path)
(4 from Mythic Spell focus on greater Spell focus)
(2 from Greater Elemental focus)
(6 from spell perfection)
She passed on a 15, so chances she fails at least one. Which I’m pretty sure means she dies thanks to the iterative Damage.
Funnily enough I made this build months ago to make a blaster that ignores SR. Who new it would come up in a thread.
But yeah, pretty sure this works. Even easier if you go cross blooded and then take blood havoc at level 7 in place of a bloodline feat.
But I hate cross blooded so I didn’t do that xD
EDIT: typos
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Why bother with Dazing. Just kill her.
Caustic erruption is an instantaneous conjuration with a radius burst of 20ft so you cast the conjuration outside the butterfly’s AMF.
That's a Mythic build. A fair number of Mythic builds can absolutely take her, and frankly nobody is arguing otherwise.
A non-mythic example does a lot less well.
But yeah, instantaneous conjuration acid attacks are also a valid strategy. Though I will note that it won't actually last three rounds, since she can Greater Dispel Magic it away (an explicit option in Caustic Eruption).
Of course, the gnome also has methods for boosting his bluff. A move action pageant of the peacock, for instance, gives him an immediate +4 bonus.
Oh, absolutely. I'm just noting her making one check as possible, not at all likely.
What about Raid?
***puff puff...puff***
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You could just shoot her full of shiver coated arrows. But that's probably Cheating? 50% chance per hit to fall asleep, no save.
Why bother with Dazing. Just kill her.
Caustic erruption is an instantaneous conjuration with a radius burst of 20ft so you cast the conjuration outside the butterfly’s AMF.
That's a Mythic build. A fair number of Mythic builds can absolutely take her, and frankly nobody is arguing otherwise.
A non-mythic example does a lot less well.
But yeah, instantaneous conjuration acid attacks are also a valid strategy. Though I will note that it won't actually last three rounds, since she can Greater Dispel Magic it away (an explicit option in Caustic Eruption).
Of course, the gnome also has methods for boosting his bluff. A move action pageant of the peacock, for instance, gives him an immediate +4 bonus.Oh, absolutely. I'm just noting her making one check as possible, not at all likely.
I mean you could just do the leadership thing and get a load of buddies doing a similar thing.
I’m avoiding the Dazing thing because RAW I think she can 5ft step and stealth through Daze. Although I think not RAI.