Can We Talk About Black Butterfly?


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Avoron wrote:
Haywire build generator wrote:
There's probably more.

Don't forget that Tenebrous and Piercing get doubled by Spell Perfection!

HWalsh wrote:

The only problem with Baleful Polymorph is you're only getting one shot. If it doesn't work, you lose.

I can tell you. I know how I'd run her, and your first Baleful Polymorph would fail nearly 100% of the time.

She'd have a near 0% chance to fail on anything other than a 1.

She needs a 17 or higher to succeed on a DC 43 Fort save, and a 15 or higher to succeed on a DC 43 Will save. If she succeeds on either, Persistent Spell makes her roll again. If she succeeds on that too, she just gets hit with the exact same thing all over again via a quicken metamagic rod.

She can succeed on a 1 if she burns Moment of Prescience.


Avoron wrote:
Haywire build generator wrote:
There's probably more.

Don't forget that Tenebrous and Piercing get doubled by Spell Perfection!

HWalsh wrote:

The only problem with Baleful Polymorph is you're only getting one shot. If it doesn't work, you lose.

I can tell you. I know how I'd run her, and your first Baleful Polymorph would fail nearly 100% of the time.

She'd have a near 0% chance to fail on anything other than a 1.

She needs a 17 or higher to succeed on a DC 43 Fort save, and a 15 or higher to succeed on a DC 43 Will save. If she succeeds on either, Persistent Spell makes her roll again. If she succeeds on that too, she just gets hit with the exact same thing all over again via a quicken metamagic rod.

Not quite.

She fails the first save. Then the persistent is blown. She burns prescient on the will save, which doesnt benefit from persistent. You don't know if she succeeded or not. Then she dispells the Polymorph 5ft steps then hides.

This is, of course, assuming she's not within 30 feet because then you'd need to have silent spell persistent quickened Baleful Polymorph which, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't possible.

Or her ally has a readied action to pop the Baleful Polymorph if it sticks. Which is also a thing. You think it'd be a 1 on 1 fight?


Avoron wrote:
Haywire build generator wrote:
There's probably more.
Don't forget that Tenebrous and Piercing get doubled by Spell Perfection!.

Piercing is a penalty to the target, not a bonus to the spell. It doesn’t get doubled.


HWalsh wrote:

Also all of the "Uber builds" assume she's fighting 1 on 1, while they know all of her stats in-character to plan the perfect attack, that they have all of their spells, that they didn't fight through her realm to reach her, that she let them fully rest before attacking, and it's the problem with all the shroddinger wizard situations.

In order to get to her you've fought through her whole army and breached her realm. She's not stupid. She's not going to fight you if she thinks you can just paste her.

If I were running her she'd be popping in and out of numerous battles en route. Disrupting PCs at the worst possible moments.

I've played and run AD&D you'd be facing Black Dragon tactics the whole way.

You'd be in a CR 26 encounter, about to cast a spell, when all of a sudden, "Your spell is interrupted as something sharp slams into your back."

Black Butterfly is there, like 150 feet away, across difficult terrain. You have one round before she does something to aid the Angels you're fighting then is gone again.

She harries you the whole way, you never know when she's around. If she hasn't managed to weaken you before you reach her, when you do reach her, she bails.

She's an Empyreal Lord, not an idiot.

Hell you'd be dealing with her deeper darkness CONSTANTLY in fights not against her.

She'd be there, hidden, cast a deeper darkness while you're fighting someone else, drop an AM field, or a Mage's Disjunction then 5ft step and vanish.

She's not a video game end boss coded to sit and wait. You're about to kill a minion? Nope! She appears from nowhere, drops a quickened heal, slaps one of you with a spell of her choice, then vanishes before any of you can act.

that's assuming her forces know your there there's plenty ways around them and even more ways of distracting them with other things to keep them more preoccupied while you deal with her


HWalsh wrote:
Avoron wrote:
Haywire build generator wrote:
There's probably more.

Don't forget that Tenebrous and Piercing get doubled by Spell Perfection!

HWalsh wrote:

The only problem with Baleful Polymorph is you're only getting one shot. If it doesn't work, you lose.

I can tell you. I know how I'd run her, and your first Baleful Polymorph would fail nearly 100% of the time.

She'd have a near 0% chance to fail on anything other than a 1.

She needs a 17 or higher to succeed on a DC 43 Fort save, and a 15 or higher to succeed on a DC 43 Will save. If she succeeds on either, Persistent Spell makes her roll again. If she succeeds on that too, she just gets hit with the exact same thing all over again via a quicken metamagic rod.
She can succeed on a 1 if she burns Moment of Prescience.

No, it’s still a natural 1. It’s an auto fail no matter how high you boost it before or after the roll.


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If we're no longer assuming 1v1, why are we assuming our first striker has no allies?


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HWalsh wrote:

Also all of the "Uber builds" assume she's fighting 1 on 1, while they know all of her stats in-character to plan the perfect attack, that they have all of their spells, that they didn't fight through her realm to reach her, that she let them fully rest before attacking, and it's the problem with all the shroddinger wizard situations.

In order to get to her you've fought through her whole army and breached her realm. She's not stupid. She's not going to fight you if she thinks you can just paste her.

If I were running her she'd be popping in and out of numerous battles en route. Disrupting PCs at the worst possible moments.

I've played and run AD&D you'd be facing Black Dragon tactics the whole way.

You'd be in a CR 26 encounter, about to cast a spell, when all of a sudden, "Your spell is interrupted as something sharp slams into your back."

Black Butterfly is there, like 150 feet away, across difficult terrain. You have one round before she does something to aid the Angels you're fighting then is gone again.

She harries you the whole way, you never know when she's around. If she hasn't managed to weaken you before you reach her, when you do reach her, she bails.

She's an Empyreal Lord, not an idiot.

Hell you'd be dealing with her deeper darkness CONSTANTLY in fights not against her.

She'd be there, hidden, cast a deeper darkness while you're fighting someone else, drop an AM field, or a Mage's Disjunction then 5ft step and vanish.

She's not a video game end boss coded to sit and wait. You're about to kill a minion? Nope! She appears from nowhere, drops a quickened heal, slaps one of you with a spell of her choice, then vanishes before any of you can act.

This and DM > stat blocks. They are more like guide lines anyways. Plus since a few people missed it, if you look up Antimagic field you will find "Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this"

So she can use antimagic field and still use all of her spells and spell like abilities with no problem.


HWalsh wrote:
all of the "Uber builds" assume... they know all of her stats in-character to plan the perfect attack... it's the problem with all the shroddinger wizard situations.

You do realize that I made this character ten months ago for an entirely different set of foes, right? And we're talking about an NPC class with casting that only goes up to 5th level spells. Not exactly the top tier of broken spellcasters.

HWalsh wrote:
She's going to get the first shot

Um... why, exactly? The adept beats her initiative easily and sees through her deeper darkness like it's a sunny field.

HWalsh wrote:
She burns prescient on the will save, which doesnt benefit from persistent.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it does...

Persistent Spell wrote:
Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect.

"Whenever" means whenever.

HWalsh wrote:
You don't know if she succeeded or not.

So you hit her with the quickened version too, just to be safe.

HWalsh wrote:
This is, of course, assuming she's not within 30 feet because then you'd need to have silent spell persistent quickened Baleful Polymorph which, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't possible.

Well, he could try the very cunning tactic - and bear with me for a moment, because it gets a bit complicated - of moving thirty feet away. Then casting.

HWalsh wrote:
Or her ally has a readied action to pop the Baleful Polymorph if it sticks. Which is also a thing. You think it'd be a 1 on 1 fight?

You know what? Sure. You're absolutely right that any real game would have allies and minions and and entire dungeon full of independent obstacles, rather than just being an one-on-one arena combat. In a real game, Black Butterfly's actual statbock would have little relevance to the difficulty of an adventure involving her - which is, to put it simply, exactly as difficult as the GM wants it to be. The point is, this isn't a real game. Random NPC 9143 isn't an adventurer, and I'm not trying to demonstrate how great he'd be at dungeon-crawling. I brought him up for a very specific purpose. The OP asked:

Cuup wrote:
Does Black Butterfly have any weakness I've missed?

Susceptibility to baleful polymorph is a weakness of Black Butterfly. It's as simple as that.

Want to run a game with her as a final boss? That's an entirely different issue.


Nodrog wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

Also all of the "Uber builds" assume she's fighting 1 on 1, while they know all of her stats in-character to plan the perfect attack, that they have all of their spells, that they didn't fight through her realm to reach her, that she let them fully rest before attacking, and it's the problem with all the shroddinger wizard situations.

In order to get to her you've fought through her whole army and breached her realm. She's not stupid. She's not going to fight you if she thinks you can just paste her.

If I were running her she'd be popping in and out of numerous battles en route. Disrupting PCs at the worst possible moments.

I've played and run AD&D you'd be facing Black Dragon tactics the whole way.

You'd be in a CR 26 encounter, about to cast a spell, when all of a sudden, "Your spell is interrupted as something sharp slams into your back."

Black Butterfly is there, like 150 feet away, across difficult terrain. You have one round before she does something to aid the Angels you're fighting then is gone again.

She harries you the whole way, you never know when she's around. If she hasn't managed to weaken you before you reach her, when you do reach her, she bails.

She's an Empyreal Lord, not an idiot.

Hell you'd be dealing with her deeper darkness CONSTANTLY in fights not against her.

She'd be there, hidden, cast a deeper darkness while you're fighting someone else, drop an AM field, or a Mage's Disjunction then 5ft step and vanish.

She's not a video game end boss coded to sit and wait. You're about to kill a minion? Nope! She appears from nowhere, drops a quickened heal, slaps one of you with a spell of her choice, then vanishes before any of you can act.

This and DM > stat blocks. They are more like guide lines anyways. Plus since a few people missed it, if you look up Antimagic field you will find "Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this"

So she can use antimagic field and still use all of her spells and spell like...

That's.... A really, really good point. That completely slipped everyone's mind (I think). It suddenly means she can close in on melee, with Voidsedge (as an artifact) still fully functional, with Deeper Darkness going, and demolish PCs, who rely on magical defenses to bolster saves and AC, stay immune to her touch attack, and more. There's no real counter to that besides Aroden's Spellbane, which is admittedly a small problem, but it would also need to counter Mage's Disjunction and Greater Dispel Magic. And if she has a couple of minions with other dispelling abilities, even that isn't the end-all defense.

As a bonus, it would also serve to protect her from Baleful Polymorph. But being able to strip away all magic from melee attackers, while remaining unaffected? It would leave her DR and regeneration basically unbeatable except by another being of similar power, no?


Daedelus wrote:
As a bonus, it would also serve to protect her from Baleful Polymorph.

Only if she gets an action!


Avoron wrote:
Actually, I'm pretty sure it does...

Nope.

Not based on how the metamagic feat is written.

The Will Save is a RESULT of the spell hitting her. Not part of the spell. It has an independent DC that is not tied to, or affected by, any part of the spell and only happens if the spell is successful.

The spell hits, she fails... That's it. Your persistent is done. The second roll is ONLY the result of the spell working. Thus persistent doesn't apply.

It's like if you were to teleport someone into a trap. The persistent would affect the teleport, but the trap is a result of the teleport working, and your persistent has no effect on that.

This is, of course, if she's not already standing in an AM field. Which, since it doesn't affect her, or anything she does, she would be.

As to why you'd not get the first shot:

She's going to be hidden before you get to her. Period. She's too smart and has too many defenses not to be. You an pierce her deeper darkness, but her Stealth is going to be a pain in the butt to see through.

You're planning all kinds of things that she can easily defeat. Heck, she could blow her +25 on her Stealth Roll and if she's staying still she gets to add +40 to her stealth check.

Assuming an average roll of 11:

11+53+25+40=129 Stealth Check.

There is virtually no possible way a PC can make that. That is a ridiculous stealth score. She has already set up AM Field by this point.

So you bust into her room, you go! "AHA! BALEFUL POLYMORPH!"

*spell fizzles*

"QUICKEN BALEFUL POLYMORPH!"

*spell fizzles*

(AM field lasts for 10 mins/level)

She full attacks you, you eat 134 damage. She vanishes.

You try to find her... You fail (because most likely there are areas in her throne room that are beneficial to her, which can wreck your perception rolls)

WHAM! You eat another 134 damage. She vanishes.

You decide to ready an action to get rid of her AM field.

She reacts AM Field and vanishes.

You're 100% on the defense from moment one and you have to spot her through stealth, pop her, and bypass her SR, and bypass her +25 that she can use when she wants, and bypass her AM field, AND bypass Mage's Dysjunction if she really feels like it.

That's also if she doesn't decide to pull a REAL jerk move and cast Time Stop. Wherein she could then set up a bunch of overlapping deeper darknesses in the room and dismiss the time stop, as area effects they can stick around, and now you have to try to dispel them or daylight them, but depending on the size of the room that may or may not work.

Note: Which is actually how I'd start the battle.

She'd time stop, drop a bunch of deeper darknesses, overlapping so that more than 1 daylight spell would be needed to counter it. Stand in the fringe, AM field herself, hide, then dismiss the time stop.

Your entire concept involves her waiting for you, unstealthed, and letting you go first. That isn't going to happen in any realistic scenario.

There is a 99% chance that she's got the drop on you in any encounter. There is a HUGE percent chance that she has an AM field up before you reach her. So what happens when your alpha shot misses and fails? What is your fallback? If Baleful Polymorph can't defeat her defenses, or you don't get the first shot, and she fights intelligently, what do you do?

Again... She's NOT unbeatable... But you're not going to pull it off with a cute trick. Just tank and spank her. That is the best way to deal with her.


Avoron wrote:
Daedelus wrote:
As a bonus, it would also serve to protect her from Baleful Polymorph.
Only if she gets an action!

She can set it up 280 minutes in advance. You are assuming that she starts with no defensive active, while you have all of your things active.

I highly doubt that you can sneak up on a freaking deity without anyone knowing you're coming. Get through all of her defenses, into her realm, without being detected by anything or everyone, and automatically get the drop on her.

Your init is amazing, and you claim she can't beat it, can you also beat her +50 Perception? (+75 if she wants it?)

Yes. Your build has a fair chance to beat her. No joke. You can.

If you get to start the fight ready and she doesn't.

If you act first, and hit her with two Baleful Polymorphs "just to be sure."

If you have all of your advantages and she doesn't have any... Sure.

I mean, hey, I can do that with a Mythic Fighter. It ain't hard to do.


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ummm were are you getting that she would be un-effected by anti magic fields, she is not a deity so yes she is effected

Shadow Lodge

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Not true. "Empyreal Lords, or the Lords of the Empyrean, are unique outsiders who have transcended their original forms and have acquired a small spark of divinity, becoming demigods."

Last I checked demigods are still gods.


Lady-J wrote:
ummm were are you getting that she would be un-effected by anti magic fields, she is not a deity so yes she is effected

To me, "If you can grant spells to worshipers, you are immune to anti-magic fields" seems a fairly common sense standard to use for rulings.

Since "causing there to be magic where there wasn't the possibility of it existing before" is precisely what "granting spells to worshipers" entails.


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demigod=/=god, deities dont get stat blocks, this thing has a stat block there for is not a deity


HWalsh wrote:
She has already set up AM Field by this point.

I'll be honest, antimagic field is a gamechanger. If empyreal lords like her qualify as "deities" for the purpose of antimagic immunity, and she chooses to keep her field up all day, then the adept build just isn't going to cut it.

HWalsh wrote:
Your entire concept involves her waiting for you, unstealthed, and letting you go first. That isn't going to happen in any realistic scenario.

Well, no, it involves her being there, quite excellently stealthed in her bubble of deeper darkness that's completely useless against his eye piercings, then trying desperately to go first but failing to beat his 41 initiative.

HWalsh wrote:
So what happens when your alpha shot misses and fails? What is your fallback? If Baleful Polymorph can't defeat her defenses, or you don't get the first shot, and she fights intelligently, what do you do?

Die. I mean, obviously. He'll die very quickly, and hopefully in a relatively painless manner.

There's a reason I described this character as a "one-trick-pony" in the very same post where he turned Cthulhu into a hedgehog without batting an eye. In an area of antimagic, he's basically a level 20 commoner with a lot of very expensive garbage and a pet rabbit. He's not meant to be a game-worthy build, he's meant to be a demonstration of the ridiculous shenanigans that even the weakest high-level casters can perform.


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See, this is where we get into "rules-lawyering the dictionary" territory. What makes something a deity in PF? If we go by "anything worshiped," Razmiran is unaffected. If we go with, "a being without a statblock" that means lots of things aren't affected.
If we go with "grants spells," lots of different things with all kinds of CRs (but mostly mythic) gain immunity.
If we go with "true, full god," then we run into problems. What constitutes a full god? Five domains? Reasonable enough, but it really doesn't fit the flavor of why Antimagic Field doesn't affect them. The idea is that these beings are so powerful, it doesn't matter what mortals and their magic does- they just do it anyway. And then you'll have the issue that several mortals can create something that is actually more powerful than whatever they worship.

Personally, I feel like if I can find the being under the "deities" tab of Archives of Nethys, it counts. RAW? Maybe not. But it seems like the best benchmark we have without developer input.


Lady-J wrote:
demigod=/=god, deities dont get stat blocks, this thing has a stat block there for is not a deity

That means that Achaekek, a true, 5-domain god, who has an entire cult based around He Who Walks in Blood, and who kills other gods on a semi-regular basis, is not a deity. Granted, he got his stats in 3.5, but he still has stats.

demigod=god


Avoron wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
She has already set up AM Field by this point.

I'll be honest, antimagic field is a gamechanger. If empyreal lords like her qualify as "deities" for the purpose of antimagic immunity, and she chooses to keep her field up all day, then the adept build just isn't going to cut it.

HWalsh wrote:
Your entire concept involves her waiting for you, unstealthed, and letting you go first. That isn't going to happen in any realistic scenario.

Well, no, it involves her being there, quite excellently stealthed in her bubble of deeper darkness that's completely useless against his eye piercings, then trying desperately to go first but failing to beat his 41 initiative.

HWalsh wrote:
So what happens when your alpha shot misses and fails? What is your fallback? If Baleful Polymorph can't defeat her defenses, or you don't get the first shot, and she fights intelligently, what do you do?

Die. I mean, obviously. He'll die very quickly, and hopefully in a relatively painless manner.

There's a reason I described this character as a "one-trick-pony" in the very same post where he turned Cthulhu into a hedgehog without batting an eye. In an area of antimagic, he's basically a level 20 commoner with a lot of very expensive garbage and a pet rabbit. He's not meant to be a game-worthy build, he's meant to be a demonstration of the ridiculous shenanigans that even the weakest high-level casters can perform.

On the other hand, his pet hedgehogs could still be a very major issue within an anti-magic field, so there's that


Dαedαlus wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
demigod=/=god, deities dont get stat blocks, this thing has a stat block there for is not a deity

That means that Achaekek, a true, 5-domain god, who has an entire cult based around He Who Walks in Blood, and who kills other gods on a semi-regular basis, is not a deity. Granted, he got his stats in 3.5, but he still has stats.

demigod=god

demi means partly so a demigod is by definition not a god and only full gods are immune to the anti magic field effect


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Mythic characters who grant spells aren't gods. No. That is not the measure of "deity" in PF.


Avoron wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
She has already set up AM Field by this point.

I'll be honest, antimagic field is a gamechanger. If empyreal lords like her qualify as "deities" for the purpose of antimagic immunity, and she chooses to keep her field up all day, then the adept build just isn't going to cut it.

HWalsh wrote:
Your entire concept involves her waiting for you, unstealthed, and letting you go first. That isn't going to happen in any realistic scenario.

Well, no, it involves her being there, quite excellently stealthed in her bubble of deeper darkness that's completely useless against his eye piercings, then trying desperately to go first but failing to beat his 41 initiative.

HWalsh wrote:
So what happens when your alpha shot misses and fails? What is your fallback? If Baleful Polymorph can't defeat her defenses, or you don't get the first shot, and she fights intelligently, what do you do?

Die. I mean, obviously. He'll die very quickly, and hopefully in a relatively painless manner.

There's a reason I described this character as a "one-trick-pony" in the very same post where he turned Cthulhu into a hedgehog without batting an eye. In an area of antimagic, he's basically a level 20 commoner with a lot of very expensive garbage and a pet rabbit. He's not meant to be a game-worthy build, he's meant to be a demonstration of the ridiculous shenanigans that even the weakest high-level casters can perform.

But you're not beating her Stealth, you're only beating her Deeper Darkness, why would she NOT be in Stealth? She can stealth as a free action.

And yes, they count as Deities.

Case in point:

If you follow the Crimson Templar PrC, you get Deific Obedience toward Ragathiel. Ragathiel is an Empyreal Lord. Thus a deity.


Lady-J wrote:
Dαedαlus wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
demigod=/=god, deities dont get stat blocks, this thing has a stat block there for is not a deity

That means that Achaekek, a true, 5-domain god, who has an entire cult based around He Who Walks in Blood, and who kills other gods on a semi-regular basis, is not a deity. Granted, he got his stats in 3.5, but he still has stats.

demigod=god

demi means partly so a demigod is by definition not a god and only full gods are immune to the anti magic field effect

Ragathiel is an Empyreal Lord, he counts as a Deity for Deific Obedience... See the Crimson Templar Prestige Class.

He's a God.

Liberty's Edge

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'Deity' actually has a specific mechanical meaning in Pathfinder. And it is in fact the '5 Domains and doesn't have stats' thing (citation here).

'God', meanwhile wound up the generic term (weirdly enough).

That said, Antimagic Field is still an entirely valid tactic on her part, since her weapon is almost certainly an artifact...and that means that her basic offensive tactic (as portrayed in this thread) still works entirely fine, since all aspects of it are extraordinary rather than supernatural.

Frankly, if fighting (or planning on fighting) high level spellcasters, I'd be shocked if she didn't have AMF up.


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We are getting all Pillars of Eternity here now.


HWalsh wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Dαedαlus wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
demigod=/=god, deities dont get stat blocks, this thing has a stat block there for is not a deity

That means that Achaekek, a true, 5-domain god, who has an entire cult based around He Who Walks in Blood, and who kills other gods on a semi-regular basis, is not a deity. Granted, he got his stats in 3.5, but he still has stats.

demigod=god

demi means partly so a demigod is by definition not a god and only full gods are immune to the anti magic field effect

Ragathiel is an Empyreal Lord, he counts as a Deity for Deific Obedience... See the Crimson Templar Prestige Class.

He's a God.

creatures can count as one thing with out actually being that one thing maguses count as fighters with half their levels for feats, this does not mean a magus is a fighter


She has Mythic Antimagic Field, meaning she can choose 5 schools to exclude from the field, and apart from that she still has her artifact and Ex abilities, so she doesn't really need complete antimagic immunity


HWalsh wrote:
But you're not beating her Stealth, you're only beating her Deeper Darkness, why would she NOT be in Stealth? She can stealth as a free action.

Until she actually gets a chance to take a 5-foot step and use her Silence Between ability, she still needs cover or concealment to make a stealth check just like any other creature.

Renata Maclean wrote:
On the other hand, his pet hedgehogs could still be a very major issue within an anti-magic field, so there's that

Oh God, I can see it now...

"The mighty empyreal lord Black Butterfly closes in on the defenseless adept, enveloping him within her antimagic field. His spells wink out, his cauldron of flying hits the ground with a thunk. There is a brief moment of silence...

Then the cauldron explodes. From it emerge Ancalagong, mythic wyrm red dragon; Pazuzu, King of the Wind Demons; and of course, Cthulhu, the Dreamer in the Deep. They are all at full strength and health. And they are very, very angry."


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Frankly, if fighting (or planning on fighting) high level spellcasters, I'd be shocked if she didn't have AMF up.

I feel like the long and short of it is that if the PCs are fighting an Empyreal Lord (or similar) in their place of power, when they know it's coming, and have had the chance to do reconnaissance and prepare, the PCs should have absolutely no chance of winning that fight. I mean, the Black Butterfly likely has Desna on speed dial and Desna is literally the most powerful being in the universe (courtesy of James Jacobs ;p).

If the PCs manage to catch a being of that magnitude out in the open, without allies, and without time to prepare that's a different matter, but pulling that off that should be extremely difficult and the resulting fight should be extremely difficult. Fighting something like this should be the *capstone* of a mythic campaign. If you don't do your darnedest to make one of the most ancient beings in the universe fight as hard and frankly unfairly as possible, you're not really not living up to your end of the bargain as the GM.


She only gets mythic versions of spells in her own domain. Let's just say that fighting a demigod in her home might not be the best idea.

As I said before, anti-magic field costs her a lot of her abilities. Risky move.


Avoron wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
But you're not beating her Stealth, you're only beating her Deeper Darkness, why would she NOT be in Stealth? She can stealth as a free action.

Until she actually gets a chance to take a 5-foot step and use her Silence Between ability, she still needs cover or concealment to make a stealth check just like any other creature.

Renata Maclean wrote:
On the other hand, his pet hedgehogs could still be a very major issue within an anti-magic field, so there's that

Oh God, I can see it now...

"The mighty empyreal lord Black Butterfly closes in on the defenseless adept, enveloping him within her antimagic field. His spells wink out, his cauldron of flying hits the ground with a thunk. There is a brief moment of silence...

Then the cauldron explodes. From it emerge Ancalagong, mythic wyrm red dragon; Pazuzu, King of the Wind Demons; and of course, Cthulhu, the Dreamer in the Deep. They are all at full strength and health. And they are very, very angry."

"She can hide even when being directly observed, and her Stealth can defeat any sense (for example blindsight, lifesense, and tremorsense) as long as the result of the check exceeds the result of the observer’s Perception check."

All she has to do is stealth before you reach her. She's going to see you coming. She's going to have warning.

Liberty's Edge

Sissyl wrote:

She only gets mythic versions of spells in her own domain. Let's just say that fighting a demigod in her home might not be the best idea.

As I said before, anti-magic field costs her a lot of her abilities. Risky move.

Not vs. most optimized PC groups.

And anyone with Save DCs she needs to worry about (which need to be really high...most PCs are only gonna manage a DC 34 or thereabouts, if even that much making people with a DC in the mid-40s quite rare) is gonna have enough of a rep that she's likely gonna know to avoid them, especially if she's been keeping an eye out.


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HWalsh wrote:
"She can hide even when being directly observed, and her Stealth can defeat any sense (for example blindsight, lifesense, and tremorsense) as long as the result of the check exceeds the result of the observer’s Perception check."

Yeah, exactly, that line only occurs in her Silence Between ability, describing what happens when she takes a 5-foot step and makes a stealth check to hide as a free action. When she's not using that ability, she follows the normal rules for stealth.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Sissyl wrote:

She only gets mythic versions of spells in her own domain. Let's just say that fighting a demigod in her home might not be the best idea.

As I said before, anti-magic field costs her a lot of her abilities. Risky move.

Not vs. most optimized PC groups.

And anyone with Save DCs she needs to worry about (which need to be really high...most PCs are only gonna manage a DC 34 or thereabouts, if even that much making people with a DC in the mid-40s quite rare) is gonna have enough of a rep that she's likely gonna know to avoid them, especially if she's been keeping an eye out.

Agreed... She's one of those opponents you don't want to fight. She has so many advantages even against a mythic group.

The example I always give is the Black Dragon swamp from 2nd Edition.

Black Dragons weren't that scary on their own, but if they were in a swamp? Which was their favored environment? Deadly.

They can attack from underneath the muck, giving them an avenue to attack. Worse, they can use things like Crocodiles and Alligators to attack first. A party, even a party of bad dudes has a serious problem when they start getting hit from surprise and multiple ambush points.


Avoron wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
"She can hide even when being directly observed, and her Stealth can defeat any sense (for example blindsight, lifesense, and tremorsense) as long as the result of the check exceeds the result of the observer’s Perception check."
Yeah, exactly, that line only occurs in her Silence Between ability, describing what happens when she takes a 5-foot step and makes a stealth check to hide as a free action. When she's not using that ability, she follows the normal rules for stealth.

Why would she NOT use that ability before hiding? That would be silly. Especially if she knows people are coming after her and may have a way to see through deeper darkness?

I'm giving her the same advantage that you have. She knows what you can do, just like you know what she can do. She gets to plan to overcome your tactics just like you get to overcome hers.


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HWalsh wrote:
Avoron wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
"She can hide even when being directly observed, and her Stealth can defeat any sense (for example blindsight, lifesense, and tremorsense) as long as the result of the check exceeds the result of the observer’s Perception check."
Yeah, exactly, that line only occurs in her Silence Between ability, describing what happens when she takes a 5-foot step and makes a stealth check to hide as a free action. When she's not using that ability, she follows the normal rules for stealth.

Why would she NOT use that ability before hiding? That would be silly. Especially if she knows people are coming after her and may have a way to see through deeper darkness?

I'm giving her the same advantage that you have. She knows what you can do, just like you know what she can do. She gets to plan to overcome your tactics just like you get to overcome hers.

...a character made in February has foreknowledge of a statblock released in April? Is Avoron a Wizard with divination spells in real life? Random NPC 9143 has everything Avoron has listed so far. It's absolutely a glass cannon (they've said as such) but it also absolutely stands a chance of neutralizing the Black Butterfly (and Cthulhu, and Pazuzu, etc.).

The question was "does Black Butterfly have any weaknesses". The answer was "alpha strike that kills her/turns her into a hedgehog". With fancy numbers to prove it (that they can beat initiative, SR, and saves). Running a playtest proves literally nothing except how that exact game played out (which is sorta tautological). Adding a bunch of extra obstacles, again, proves literally nothing. If I as a GM decide that the only way to beat the Black Butterfly is to also beat all of the other Empyreal Lords combined, sure, nobody can pass the test (well, maybe someone). That says absolutely nothing about whether she's beatable herself and is utterly worthless for this thread. "I as a GM can make her lair so nobody can kill her" is even more useless for this thread.

That character is not built to kill her specifically, just high level monsters. Acute Senses would pump Perception even more. Probably a couple more items they could pick up to get their Perception high enough to spot the Black Butterfly even in Stealth. Maybe even a real class instead of the freaking NPC spellcaster. You are insisting a demigod needs a lair and special preparations and knowledge of their foe to fight the weakest possible spellcaster and their one trick.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
ummm were are you getting that she would be un-effected by anti magic fields, she is not a deity so yes she is effected

To me, "If you can grant spells to worshipers, you are immune to anti-magic fields" seems a fairly common sense standard to use for rulings.

Since "causing there to be magic where there wasn't the possibility of it existing before" is precisely what "granting spells to worshipers" entails.

So if PCs take the mythic path that lets them grant spells, they become immune to antimagic?

I think not.

As someone else in this thread already said, deity means 5 domains, simple as that. She isn’t one.

Quote:
when they know it's coming

Mind blank.

Quote:
I mean, the Black Butterfly likely has Desna on speed dial and Desna is literally the most powerful being in the universe (courtesy of James Jacobs ;p).

Since when? Last I checked JJ said it was Pharasma.

————————————————————————————————————————
Anyway the point of this thread seems to have been lost. Its was about black butterfly’s silence between ability and if she had any weakness.

That is what Avoron replied to.

It wasn’t about the practicalities of fighting her as an end of campaign boss. And the inquisition Avoron has been put through simply for replying to the topic of the post, rather than some posters perversion of the topic is ridiculous.

People have gone from complaining about an unfair undefined scenario for the butterfly. Because she had to fight a PC one on one without more prep than the Pc got.

To actually creating unfair scenarios where-in Mythic 20/10 are for some reason mindlessly bumbling through her forces and her armies and making no counter measures to deal with her arrival.

I could sit here and say, she can’t know where we are, communal mind blank, and I’m not going to fight her army I can plane shift to where and from wherever I please . Or heck even gate, and if I ever want to move through a dungeon I’m just going to astral project.
But It’s pointless. It’s like you’re trying to run the DMs side of campaign without asking the PCs what they can or indeed want to do, and simply assuming they’re going to co-operate.
Where people to respond to it in kind you’d end up with schrodingers g** d$*n campaign.

It’s not only a pointless and futile excercize but it isn’t even remotely what the thread was about.

Oh and if people could cease lying about other posters, that would be great.

HWalsh wrote:


I'm giving her the same advantage that you have. She knows what you can do, just like you know what she can do. She gets to plan to overcome your tactics just like you get to overcome hers.

Avoron didn’t do any of that, he made this character for a joke in another thread months ago, before Blackbutterfly was even released. As several people have already told you and yet you ignore that fact.

And in case you missed the OP as you seem to have, the point of the thread is to find weaknesses in her printed abilities.
Not to run a realistic end of campaign encounter between her and one PC.

You sitting there snidely replying, that would never happen, she’s too smart for that, to everyone who posts a response to the OP is in no way helpful. Especially when you then drag them into an argument about how you’d run her in your campaign. Which has exactly nothing to do with anything.

Liberty's Edge

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For the record, I'm absolutely positive that a group of High-Tier level 20 Mythic PCs would wreck her (along with just about everything else)...except maybe in her Home Realm, and I think probably even there.

A group of non-Mythic level 20 PCs will only be able to take her if they meet three criteria:

1. Highly optimized to a level I've never seen in actual play (and I've run games for people doing serious God Wizards).
2. Prepared for her tactics...specifically the Stealth thing (this requires somewhere north of a DC 48 Knowledge-Planes check, probably more like 58...very doable at the optimization level noted above).
3. Her not being prepared for them (Antimagic Field...this one is even more true in her Home Realm).

Those are achievable but not easy or typical.

Which is all appropriate for her listed CR of 28.

EDIT: Y'know, I just realized that a non-Mythic party pretty much can't beat her Regeneration, which makes them even more screwed. There's stuff they can do, but it's not easy at all.


Dαedαlus wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Or just find a way to prevent 5' steps. There are various abilities designed for lockdown builds that stop this.

Sorry, but....

Black Butterfly wrote:

Celestial Grace (Ex)

Black Butterfly adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to her damage rolls with all melee and ranged weapons. She gains an insight bonus to her Armor Class equal to her Wisdom modifier. She ignores any effect that would reduce her movement speed or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step.

Then surround her. It's not an effect.

Liberty's Edge

deuxhero wrote:
Then surround her. It's not an effect.

Given that she has flight and her '5 foot steps' teleport her 150 feet...this is not practical. You'd need to fill up every square within 150 feet, including all the ones above the ground.

And even if you did, she could just Interplanetary Teleport out.


Silence Between wrote:
When Black Butterfly takes a 5-foot step, instead of moving 5 feet, she can ride the spaces in between breaths and thoughts, disappearing and rematerializing anywhere within 150 feet and attempting a Stealth check to hide as a free action.

This tactic would almost be silly enough for GM-me to just shrug and allow it. RAW, though, it wouldn't work. According to the ability, she's not actually taking a 5' step - she doesn't need the space to do so - she just needs to take the equivalent action (i.e. she can't also use a Move action to move during the turn she does it).

@Avoron: Man, I usually try to hum to myself and pretend I can't hear when people talk about martial/caster disparity, thinking to myself "nah, Martials are still good, they got this, everyone should play what makes them happy!" While that last part's still true, it's when someone puts on paper step-by-step a nearly catch-all win tactic with their favored spellcaster that I'm forced to admit that there may be a problem after all - and you've done it with an NPC class! I want to shake your hand and wring it at the same time :p

OK, so it is possible to create a Perception check that can beat BB's Stealth check when she uses Silence Between, and a Polymorph effect is definitely a quick way to shut her down. As to the "she's not affected by AMF because she's a deity argument", I'm inclined to agree with the nay-sayers. Granting spells should not automatically make a creature immune to AMF. A Tier 3 character is immune to AMF, but a Tier 10 character who never took those abilities ISN'T?


Personally, I think that if any mythic characters would be immune to AMF on account of being a deity, it would be after taking the ability 3 times and having 4 domains that you can grant, putting you on the same level as a demigod. It's significant investment, requires MR 9, and allows what a lot of people considered to deities up until a year or two ago to actually retain that status.


You're fighting something with Interplanetary Teleport and don't have Dimensional Anchor up? The real hard part is figuring out to surround BB with 5/6 (depending on if you use a grid) things that aren't just followed by dispel+step, are good aligned or strong enough to survive a Holy Word+step, and expendable/tough enough to survive a full attack+step.


That's a good point. She can't be prevented from taking a 5-foot step, but she can still be prevented from teleporting


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Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Is Avoron a Wizard with divination spells in real life?

Shh, it's supposed to be a secret!

Cuup wrote:
@Avoron: Man, I usually try to hum to myself and pretend I can't hear when people talk about martial/caster disparity, thinking to myself "nah, Martials are still good, they got this, everyone should play what makes them happy!" While that last part's still true, it's when someone puts on paper step-by-step a nearly catch-all win tactic with their favored spellcaster that I'm forced to admit that there may be a problem after all - and you've done it with an NPC class! I want to shake your hand and wring it at the same time :p

Hey, don't worry! Look at all the fun things martials can do...


Cuup wrote:
Silence Between wrote:
When Black Butterfly takes a 5-foot step, instead of moving 5 feet, she can ride the spaces in between breaths and thoughts, disappearing and rematerializing anywhere within 150 feet and attempting a Stealth check to hide as a free action.
This tactic would almost be silly enough for GM-me to just shrug and allow it. RAW, though, it wouldn't work. According to the ability, she's not actually taking a 5' step - she doesn't need the space to do so - she just needs to take the equivalent action (i.e. she can't also use a Move action to move during the turn she does it).

I might agree if it said 'Instead of taking a 5-foot step, she can...' or 'In place of a 5-foot step, she can...'. As it reads now, she has to be able to legally take the action (which can't be just 5-foot step in place).

It's similar to if an ability said 'When you swing your sword at an opponent, instead of a normal attack, a burst of fire emanates from you striking all adjacent creatures.' A character would still have to have their sword, be wielding their sword, and swing the sword (even though then the ability would cause a burst of fire instead). If they couldn't swing their sword (because they can't move their arms, are shackled to a wall, buried up to their neck in sand, etc.), they can't activate the ability and do a burst of fire, even though that would replace the swing. You also couldn't try and activate it by attacking someone with sanctuary up that you had failed against by declaring "I'm not attacking them, I'm making an area attack by targeting them with an attack that is a direct attack... but becomes an indirect attack." You'd have to swing at a different, legal opponent.

Another example would be if you had an ability that stated 'When you cast a 5th-level or higher spell you may instead cast two 2nd-level spells you know." If you were in a magically restricted area that prevented the casting of 4th-level and higher spells, you couldn't use your ability, since you can't cast the 5th-level spell. Declaring that you're actually casting two 2nd-level spells doesn't change that you can't do the triggering action.

Liberty's Edge

Even assuming surrounding her would work you need to locate her and then surround her on all six sides before she acts, and even then she can Interplanetary Teleport out (casting defensively to not provoke and auto-succeeding) then 5 foot step.

Unless she has AMF up, of course, in which case I bet you can't actually surround her on 6 sides since you need non-magical flight for all six of the surrounding creatures (which can't be summoned creatures) for that...and a full melee attack routine from her against someone of lower power than a full 20th level PC (which some of the things surrounding her assuredly are) who's not protected by magic likely kills them...allowing her to 5 foot step thereafter (since they fall from the air).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Only skimmed some of this thread but...would a Zen Archer's trick shot pretty much negate the Silence Between bit?

Liberty's Edge

Carter Lockhart wrote:
Only skimmed some of this thread but...would a Zen Archer's trick shot pretty much negate the Silence Between bit?

Nope. The ability in question doesn't actually give her concealment or cover, it just makes it so you don't know where she is (via Stealth). Even a Zen Archer needs to know his target's location to target them with an attack.

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