Can We Talk About Black Butterfly?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Carter Lockhart wrote:
Only skimmed some of this thread but...would a Zen Archer's trick shot pretty much negate the Silence Between bit?
Nope. The ability in question doesn't actually give her concealment or cover, it just makes it so you don't know where she is (via Stealth). Even a Zen Archer needs to know his target's location to target them with an attack.

Unless there's a rule clarification I'm unaware of, I beg to differ. A successful stealth check provides total concealment. Trick shot says it ignores total concealment, not just the miss chance (such as the wording of improved precise shot regarding regular concealment), but the entire effect. Considering that the ability also allows unrealistic homing arrows to avoid total cover at a enhanced version, I don't see why it couldn't also home arrows towards an otherwise unseeable target.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Even assuming surrounding her would work you need to locate her and then surround her on all six sides before she acts, and even then she can Interplanetary Teleport out (casting defensively to not provoke and auto-succeeding) then 5 foot step.

Possibly, but her interplanetary teleport is subject to typical mitigators, such as dimensional anchor (if you could pass her SR) or, more likely, dimensional lock which would shut her down and waste her action. And a dimensional lock is entirely likely to be a method used by a caster confronting or being confronted by a creature that seems to be teleporting around, even if they don't know that her main such movement is a strict teleport effect. So it's likely they've already thrown it up.

A teleport trap could also shut her down in that case, though that particular ward would require planning due to its 10 minute casting (or a way to do it faster). It has a huge area though and it doesn't stop her Silence Between ability so if you know she's stalking you then you could cover a large area and when she Silence Betweens in, you surround her preventing a 5-foot steps and when she tries to teleport she either ends up where you wished in the area (and on the ground, since it specifies onto a solid surface) or she passes her save (likely) and does not teleport but still wastes the teleport attempt and action, as per the spell.

So it's still a valid strategy. The fact that she has a chance to get away is actually a good thing. Tactics that flat out hose or allow no real chance are kind of crappy going both ways.

Quote:
Unless she has AMF up, of course, in which case I bet you can't actually surround her on 6 sides since you need non-magical flight for all six of the surrounding creatures (which can't be summoned creatures) for that...and a full melee attack routine from her against someone of lower power than a full 20th level PC (which some of the things surrounding her assuredly are) who's not protected by magic likely kills them...allowing her to 5 foot step thereafter (since they fall from the air).

Sure, but with AMF up she's mostly hindering herself (at least, not before knowing just who and what she's up against, ie. cutting her own throat). Not 100% sure on Epic DR, but I think it still drops in an AMF and she'd be giving up all her spells and supernatural abilities as well as her constant freedom of movement which means she could be grappled or caught with methods that otherwise wouldn't work on her. The assumption in most cases is that she won't have it up, unless she needs it to disable or deactivate a problem or once she knows she's dealing with major spellcasting, otherwise, a barbarian or other heavy-damage type could chew her up, regeneration notwithstanding without her soaking 20 per hit. If can get a forcecage around her, her AMF won't drop that if she activates it (just need to have your guys inside with her or a way to damage her inside it).

As for surrounding her, as a large creature you can completely surround her with only 4 people (as opposed to the 8 it takes to prevent a medium or smaller creature from 5-foot stepping). The ground is assumed to be a valid option or at least reasonably able to get her near one solid border on a side (even if you have to have your flying brute bullrush her into the ground). Yes, the ability to fly might require 1 or two extra people above her, but even a couple henchmen around her with tower shields using them for full cover could stall her for a moment (she could try to bullrush them to clear space, but then can't 5-foot step that round and you just readjust to surround), with your beefier guys keeping her on the ground from above (getting wings or nonmagical flight or a flying mount is not super hard at even mid-level.) Otherwise, you could even use a simple hemispherical wall of ice in a pinch to keep her in place (though her AMF will drop that if she puts it up), it can buy you time to get in position around her.


Cuup wrote:
Is there any defense against this? Does Black Butterfly have any weakness I've missed? Do any Empyreal Lords have some tool to negate this ability, or have an ability of their own that makes it not matter?

1. Uncanny Dodge

2. Bright Light
3. Readied actions
4. Dimensional Anchor
5. Tetori
6. Cannot 5' step at both the beginning of turn and end of turn.

blahpers wrote:
Cuup wrote:


Know any sources of bright light that aren't quashed by the application of at-will deeper darkness?

Anything 4th level or higher, including heightened versions of 3rd level and lower spells.

Liberty's Edge

Carter Lockhart wrote:
Unless there's a rule clarification I'm unaware of, I beg to differ. A successful stealth check provides total concealment. Trick shot says it ignores total concealment, not just the miss chance (such as the wording of improved precise shot regarding regular concealment), but the entire effect. Considering that the ability also allows unrealistic homing arrows to avoid total cover at a enhanced version, I don't see why it couldn't also home arrows towards an otherwise unseeable target.

I'm very skeptical that ignoring total concealment means you don't have to know what square you're targeting.

Pizza Lord wrote:

Possibly, but her interplanetary teleport is subject to typical mitigators, such as dimensional anchor (if you could pass her SR) or, more likely, dimensional lock which would shut her down and waste her action. And a dimensional lock is entirely likely to be a method used by a caster confronting or being confronted by a creature that seems to be teleporting around, even if they don't know that her main such movement is a strict teleport effect. So it's likely they've already thrown it up.

A teleport trap could also shut her down in that case, though that particular ward would require planning due to its 10 minute casting (or a way to do it faster). It has a huge area though and it doesn't stop her Silence Between ability so if you know she's stalking you then you could cover a large area and when she Silence Betweens in, you surround her preventing a 5-foot steps and when she tries to teleport she either ends up where you wished in the area (and on the ground, since it specifies onto a solid surface) or she passes her save (likely) and does not teleport but still wastes the teleport attempt and action, as per the spell.

So it's still a valid strategy. The fact that she has a chance to get away is actually a good thing. Tactics that flat out hose or allow no real chance are kind of crappy going both ways.

This whole set of strategies assumes you can find her (which assumes the ability to make DC 83 or more likely DC 93 or so Perception checks, given she'll be 100+ feet away). If you can do that surrounding her is almost superfluous, since you can attack her anyway.

Pizza Lord wrote:
Sure, but with AMF up she's mostly hindering herself (at least, not before knowing just who and what she's up against, ie. cutting her own throat). Not 100% sure on Epic DR, but I think it still drops in an AMF and she'd be giving up all her spells and supernatural abilities as well as her constant freedom of movement which means she could be grappled or caught with methods that otherwise wouldn't work on her.

Actually...nothing says her DR is Supernatural, so I'm not sure if she keeps it in an AMF. Though, if facing hardcore casters, it's totally worth losing the DR for complete magic immunity. And I'm positive she can Silence Between right out of grapples (since she's immune to being stopped from making 5 foot steps). Her CMD of 78 is also pretty hard to hit for the vast majority of even optimized 20th level characters.

Also, once again, finding her to do this is around DC 83 to 93.

Pizza Lord wrote:
The assumption in most cases is that she won't have it up, unless she needs it to disable or deactivate a problem or once she knows she's dealing with major spellcasting, otherwise, a barbarian or other heavy-damage type could chew her up, regeneration notwithstanding without her soaking 20 per hit. If can get a forcecage around her, her AMF won't drop that if she activates it (just need to have your guys inside with her or a way to damage her inside it).

A forcecage is, in fact, stopped (or more accurately temporarily suppressed) by antimagic field. All spells are. And her whole (pretty valid) strategy is not getting full attacked. If she's, say, 60 feet in the air with antimagic field...how's the Barbarian getting to her to attack her? Ranged full attacks are definitely an issue...but that's why she vanishes immediately after making one of her own.

Pizza Lord wrote:
As for surrounding her, as a large creature you can completely surround her with only 4 people (as opposed to the 8 it takes to prevent a medium or smaller creature from 5-foot stepping). The ground is assumed to be a valid option or at least reasonably able to get her near one solid border on a side (even if you have to have your flying brute bullrush her into the ground). Yes, the ability to fly might require 1 or two extra people above her, but even a couple henchmen around her with tower shields using them for full cover could stall her for a moment (she could try to bullrush them to clear space, but then can't 5-foot step that round and you just readjust to surround), with your beefier guys keeping her on the ground from above (getting wings or nonmagical flight or a flying mount is not super hard at even mid-level.) Otherwise, you could even use a simple hemispherical wall of ice in a pinch to keep her in place (though her AMF will drop that if she puts it up), it can buy you time to get in position around her.

I'm very skeptical that your whole party is gonna all have non-magical flight to do this with (especially sufficient non-magical flight to make the moves required), and if she starts at 60 feet up (and she has no reason not to) that's what you'd need to do this through an AMF. Oh, and she has 10 foot reach and combat reflexes, so everyone doing this provokes an AoO to boot.

I'm also a little skeptical of bullrushing people with CMD 78 unless you're hyper specialized for that specifically.

I'm likewise very skeptical of the ability of minions of any sort to survive a full attack from her...and if they go down she's free to 5 foot step again.

Really...this whole tactic uses so many hyper specialized assumptions that I'm not buying it at all. The Geysermancer is generally applicable, as is the Baleful Polymorph Adept...but a party of 6 non-magical flyers with all the possible investment in Perception? I'm not buying it.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Carter Lockhart wrote:
Unless there's a rule clarification I'm unaware of, I beg to differ. A successful stealth check provides total concealment. Trick shot says it ignores total concealment, not just the miss chance (such as the wording of improved precise shot regarding regular concealment), but the entire effect. Considering that the ability also allows unrealistic homing arrows to avoid total cover at a enhanced version, I don't see why it couldn't also home arrows towards an otherwise unseeable target.
I'm very skeptical that ignoring total concealment means you don't have to know what square you're targeting.

Unless you can provide a reference from the designers that says otherwise, I would have to argue your skepticism does not agree with the rules.

If the intention was to ignore the miss chance, I believe the designers would have been specific in that regard as they were with the text of Improved Precise Shot. I would also argue that if a specific target space is required, it renders the ability highly situational to the point of very minor value. For example, how often is a character going to be able to target a square around a corner into an otherwise unseen room? Yet the text basically outlines this as a usage.


I love how everyone ignored my Rain of Arrows strategy that automatically takes away like 1/6 of her hp on a failed reflex save, when getting average damage. A party of 7 all casters with high initiative will beat her before she gets her turn, and let’s be honest, you’re going to bring at least 10 people to fight a fricking demigod.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
A forcecage is, in fact, stopped (or more accurately temporarily suppressed) by antimagic field. All spells are. And her whole (pretty valid) strategy is not getting full attacked. If she's, say, 60 feet in the air with antimagic field...how's the Barbarian getting to her to attack her? Ranged full attacks are definitely an issue...but that's why she vanishes immediately after making one of her own.

Actually, this is a possible point of contention that depends on references.

AMF wrote:
Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field.

Forcecage has the same wording as to it's sturdiness as Wall of force, and thus it can be a reasonable assumption that it is also immune to the AMF spell.

Liberty's Edge

Carter Lockhart wrote:

Unless you can provide a reference from the designers that says otherwise, I would have to argue your skepticism does not agree with the rules.

If the intention was to ignore the miss chance, I believe the designers would have been specific in that regard as they were with the text of Improved Precise Shot. I would also argue that if a specific target space is required, it renders the ability highly situational to the point of very minor value. For example, how often is a character going to be able to target a square around a corner into an otherwise unseen room? Yet the text basically outlines this as a usage.

Oh, it ignores normal limits on targeting them (such as around walls or while invisible) but I see nothing in the ability that allows one to know something is there in the first place. If you know it's there you can shoot it...but you need to know its there, and with a successful Stealth check, the Monk knows no such thing.

Let's look at how Stealth reads, shall we?

Stealth Rules wrote:
Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment.

Emphasis mine. Trick Shot lets you ignore that second part (which is separated by an 'and', making it entirely separate from the first), but does not let you ignore the first. And the first prevents targeting.

Liberty's Edge

Reksew_Trebla wrote:
I love how everyone ignored my Rain of Arrows strategy that automatically takes away like 1/6 of her hp on a failed reflex save, when getting average damage. A party of 7 all casters with high initiative will beat her before she gets her turn, and let’s be honest, you’re going to bring at least 10 people to fight a fricking demigod.

Where are you getting ten 20th level people?!

Also, her Reflex Save is really good. And there's Antimagic Field as mentioned.

Obscure citations wrote:


Actually, this is a possible point of contention that depends on references.
AMF wrote:
Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field.
Forcecage has the same wording as to it's sturdiness as Wall of force, and thus it can be a reasonable assumption that it is also immune to the AMF spell.

Fair enough. She can still teleport out by dropping AMF...though if she's hit that point she's probably bugging out all the way to Random Deep Space Location #38 rather than coming back to fight. You have to catch her first, of course, and I don't think you can get much higher than DC 41 on a Forcecage...which is a Save she makes on an 8 on the die. Plus you have to find her first.

There's also the fact that only a really pedantic reading of her Silence Between that allows her to be caught at all, and IMO a similarly pedantic reading has AMF get rid of forcecage, but that's a secondary concern. For the record, I'd absolutely say forcecage works in an AMF...but I'd also say that blocking her in has no logical way of stopping Silence Between. But that's a personal ruling I'd make as a GM, not the RAW.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
I love how everyone ignored my Rain of Arrows strategy that automatically takes away like 1/6 of her hp on a failed reflex save, when getting average damage. A party of 7 all casters with high initiative will beat her before she gets her turn, and let’s be honest, you’re going to bring at least 10 people to fight a fricking demigod.

Where are you getting ten 20th level people?!

Also, her Reflex Save is really good. And there's Antimagic Field as mentioned.

Uh, probably the same place you get even one 20th level character. From the Demi-GMs known as Players.

And the bonuses to the save DC will be really high from being a properly built 20th level spellcaster.

Antimagic Field would affect herself, since she isn’t a Deity. I doubt it is something she just casually uses. And using the argument of allies of her, they would all be affected as well. So which is it people, does she have allies, with their full spellcasting abilities, or is she using AMF? Because these are not compatible.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Carter Lockhart wrote:

Unless you can provide a reference from the designers that says otherwise, I would have to argue your skepticism does not agree with the rules.

If the intention was to ignore the miss chance, I believe the designers would have been specific in that regard as they were with the text of Improved Precise Shot. I would also argue that if a specific target space is required, it renders the ability highly situational to the point of very minor value. For example, how often is a character going to be able to target a square around a corner into an otherwise unseen room? Yet the text basically outlines this as a usage.

Oh, it ignores normal limits on targeting them (such as around walls or while invisible) but I see nothing in the ability that allows one to know something is there in the first place. If you know it's there you can shoot it...but you need to know its there, and with a successful Stealth check, the Monk knows no such thing.

Actually, I would disagree on invisibility, as that is a specific status effect of it's own that does call out it requires pinpoint targeting. Trick shot does not ignore invisibility. Invisibility is just a status that also happens to grant greater concealment. A Zen archer would have to pin point an invisible creature first, prior to using trick shot to ignore the concealment.

Since we are just talking about Total Concealment, let's go a bit further into details so it doesn't get confused with invisibility.

SRD wrote:


Total Concealment
If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

So, normally a creature cannot even attack a target with Total Concealment. However the wording of Trick Shot specifically calls out these terms

SRD wrote:


Trick Shot
At 11th level, a zen archer may hit targets that he might otherwise miss. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, the zen archer can ignore concealment. By spending 2 points, he can ignore total concealment or cover. By spending 3 points, he can ignore total cover, even firing arrows around corners. The arrow must still be able to reach the target; a target inside a closed building with no open doors or windows cannot be attacked. These effects last for 1 round.

The text clearly makes reference to directly attacking a target. If total concealment was still in effect in any capacity, it would not be possible to directly attack a target at all. As the text references it though, it is only logical that trick shot ignores total concealment in its entirety, allowing a Zen Archer to directly attack an opponent with total concealment without having to guess a space and without miss chance.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Let's look at how Stealth reads, shall we?

Stealth Rules wrote:
Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment.
Emphasis mine. Trick Shot lets you ignore that second part (which is separated by an 'and', making it entirely separate from the first), but does not let you ignore the first. And the first prevents targeting.

Now, this is somewhat where things get subjective to common sense. If a creature is stealthed and the party just walk by and never get encountered, then I would agree that the party is never aware of them. However, certainly if a creature attacks or is interacted with and then stealths, the group is still aware of them regardless from that point on until an actual retreat ends the scene. Do you still argue the party is unaware of the creature at this point?

I would argue that after awareness has been made, the stealther can only cling to being unobserved or obscured in a way that allows total concealment. And with only total concealment, that can be ignored by Trick Shot.

If the debate is only on the benefit of "are not aware of you" from stealth imparts, I don't believe I can continue any further as that is going to be purely subjective I feel. If you can find further details regarding Total Concealment and clarification on Trick Shot, I would be interested to hear them.


Pizza Lord wrote:
would require planning due to its 10 minute casting (or a way to do it faster)

Wish.


she is just an errant child of Yog Sothoth and one day will abandon her rebellion and join in partaking in the bounty that is golarion...

Liberty's Edge

Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Uh, probably the same place you get even one 20th level character. From the Demi-GMs known as Players.

You run 10 player games?!

Reksew_Trebla wrote:
And the bonuses to the save DC will be really high from being a properly built 20th level spellcaster.

This is true. How high will they be? She's got a +33 Reflex Save, so even if they're in the 40s she'll probably make some of them.

Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Antimagic Field would affect herself, since she isn’t a Deity. I doubt it is something she just casually uses. And using the argument of allies of her, they would all be affected as well. So which is it people, does she have allies, with their full spellcasting abilities, or is she using AMF? Because these are not compatible.

Almost all her abilities she'd use in a fight are Extraordinary. So...yeah, I'd expect her to have AMF on when fighting 10 high level casters.

Carter Lockhart wrote:
Now, this is somewhat where things get subjective to common sense. If a creature is stealthed and the party just walk by and never get encountered, then I would agree that the party is never aware of them. However, certainly if a creature attacks or is interacted with and then stealths, the group is still aware of them regardless from that point on until an actual retreat ends the scene. Do you still argue the party is unaware of the creature at this point?

'Aware' in the colloquial or the mechanical sense? They're colloquially aware of its existence in the vicinity, but they might easily have been aware of its existence in the vicinity before the first stealth check (if they came here to fight it, say). In the mechanical sense? No. They explicitly are not. They've lost track and no longer know where it's located in the area at all...no other result makes logical sense.

For Black Butterfly there's also the fact that, even colloquially, they don't know she's still in the vicinity since she can teleport. This is actually true for other creatures stealthing like this, albeit to a lesser degree. I mean, if you've lost track of them, you never know if they've left or not.

Carter Lockhart wrote:
I would argue that after awareness has been made, the stealther can only cling to being unobserved or obscured in a way that allows total concealment. And with only total concealment, that can be ignored by Trick Shot.

That's not a mechanically supported position, though. At least, I don't think it is.

Carter Lockhart wrote:
If the debate is only on the benefit of "are not aware of you" from stealth imparts, I don't believe I can continue any further as that is going to be purely subjective I feel. If you can find further details regarding Total Concealment and clarification on Trick Shot, I would be interested to hear them.

So would I, but yeah, we're into a definitional argument here and thus one where proof is gonna be hard to come by.


Wouldn't an AMF turn off her own deeper darkness?

So anywhere thats bright naturally she has to choose between her spells and as such her Silence between ability and the protection of AMF?

Thats a pretty interesting defense.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
'Aware' in the colloquial or the mechanical sense?

I mean, unless you can provide an actual game term definition, there really is only colloquial. This isn't a keyword like "confused" or something with a specific effect. It's unrealistic to have a party act 'unaware' after being sniped just because nobody made the perception check. This isn't a video game where guards suddenly forget about the arrow in their shoulder because they can't see the attacker for a minute.

Were I to be pendantic I was going to request you provide me an example of a creature that a party was "not aware of" that lacked invisibility or total concealment and explain to me why the party couldn't attack it at that point. In my mind, the 'and' is a joining word that makes the phrase read "Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you [and this is mechanically treated] as if you had total concealment." I could also say "We're having a strawberry and cream cake for dessert" and it makes sense that I am referring to a cake containing strawberry and cream, rather than a single strawberry and a cream cake. It isn't two separate effects, but the flavor tied to a specific mechanic.

But I digress, subjective differences of interpretation.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Carter Lockhart wrote:
I would argue that after awareness has been made, the stealther can only cling to being unobserved or obscured in a way that allows total concealment. And with only total concealment, that can be ignored by Trick Shot.

That's not a mechanically supported position, though. At least, I don't think it is.

I could give a whack at it.

Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).

Sniping: If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.

Both of these refer to purely visual terminology which is in line with the Total Concealment status. Neither give reference to remaining 'unaware' But again, this is really purely pendanticism and I bow to difference of interpretation.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
5. Tetori

This is what I was thinking. What happens if she's grappled by something she can't get away from?


Saldiven wrote:
Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
Heightened Daylight.

And how many times have you ever seen that combination on a caster?

She also has at will Greater Dispel Magic with a CL 28, just in case someone makes it bright out there.

None, but if someone is going to fight her they would likely know the fight is coming, and be able to make it happen. Going for a special solution for a special enemy is not uncommon.


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CorvusMask wrote:

Unless you are mythic tier 10 I guess since you are at level 20/mythic tier 10 equivalent on of cr 25

Non mythic level 20 character? Yeaaah, even if cr is artform and not rule, you shouldn't be able to do it. If demigod can be beaten by level 20 character if it didn't have "epic/mythic/deific regeneration", its bit of underwhelming demigod.

In game there are no levels. Those are for us as players. Mythic just means you are special, and supposedly beyond most others with what you can learn to do, but since mythic characters can be defeated by nonmythic ones it makes no sense to say that nonmythic people cant kill demigods.

If the mythic character can kill the mythic monster, and the nonmythic character can kill the mythic character, then defeating the mythic monster should also be possible.


There's a possible martial build that I haven't seen mentioned that helps a lot with a party that needs to deal with her, although it has a bit of a gray area in the rules.

The Arrow Catching enchantment on a tower shield would force all ranged attacks within 5 feet to target the bearer. There is the question on if it would work on a +5 weapon with the shield focus feat to change the shield's base AC boost to +5; (EDIT: there is one place it seems to sort of be defined, which is in the Shield Specialization Feat, where it calls out Sheild Focus as counting but not the enhancement bonus of the shield, which would make this work)

If it does, a 68+ AC stalwart defender with DR 10-, Bolstered Resilience+Fatigue Immunity and some elemental resists slows the incoming ranged damage to a crawl as long as everyone stays within 5 feet.

I kind of want to make this build, but I've been having a hard time getting it generalized enough to still be moderately useful in all situations...


How many hyperspecialized characters does it take to make a party suitable for most challenges?


Carter Lockhart wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Carter Lockhart wrote:
Only skimmed some of this thread but...would a Zen Archer's trick shot pretty much negate the Silence Between bit?
Nope. The ability in question doesn't actually give her concealment or cover, it just makes it so you don't know where she is (via Stealth). Even a Zen Archer needs to know his target's location to target them with an attack.
Unless there's a rule clarification I'm unaware of, I beg to differ. A successful stealth check provides total concealment. Trick shot says it ignores total concealment, not just the miss chance (such as the wording of improved precise shot regarding regular concealment), but the entire effect. Considering that the ability also allows unrealistic homing arrows to avoid total cover at a enhanced version, I don't see why it couldn't also home arrows towards an otherwise unseeable target.

Concealment just means "no line of sight" which is what a stealth check does, so if he can find the right square he should be ok, but he still needs to know which square to aim at. He can't just knock his bow, and have the arrow home in on the right square, just other abilities that ignore concealment cant just auto-target the correct square.

edit: As an example the True Strike spell lets you ignore the miss chance for concealment when dealing with a target, but it doesn't help you choose the right square.


wraithstrike wrote:
Carter Lockhart wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Carter Lockhart wrote:
Only skimmed some of this thread but...would a Zen Archer's trick shot pretty much negate the Silence Between bit?
Nope. The ability in question doesn't actually give her concealment or cover, it just makes it so you don't know where she is (via Stealth). Even a Zen Archer needs to know his target's location to target them with an attack.
Unless there's a rule clarification I'm unaware of, I beg to differ. A successful stealth check provides total concealment. Trick shot says it ignores total concealment, not just the miss chance (such as the wording of improved precise shot regarding regular concealment), but the entire effect. Considering that the ability also allows unrealistic homing arrows to avoid total cover at a enhanced version, I don't see why it couldn't also home arrows towards an otherwise unseeable target.

Concealment just means "no line of sight" which is what a stealth check does, so if he can find the right square he should be ok, but he still needs to know which square to aim at. He can't just knock his bow, and have the arrow home in on the right square, just other abilities that ignore concealment cant just auto-target the correct square.

edit: As an example the True Strike spell lets you ignore the miss chance for concealment when dealing with a target, but it doesn't help you choose the right square.

Again though, it's not equivalent. True strike ignores Miss chance, but not the underlying concealment condition. Trick shot ignores concealment and total concealment, and homing in on the target is exactly what it's defined to do in the total cover scenario.

Edit: To add onto the point, the terminology of 'ignore concealment' is the exact wording when used to define a creature that has concealment from a condition, such as darkvision ignoring the total concealment of no light.

The creature standing in the darkness has total concealment. A dwarf with darkvision can ignore the total concealment to attack normally, and can see the target. The Zen archer can also ignore the total concealment even though they lack darkvision, and can attack normally with trick shot, though they lack vision and wouldn't be able to say, describe the creature after the encounter. The dichotomy of how they can attack what they can't see is covered by the mystic power of ki guiding the arrow, and is taken to the example that it can even guide an arrow around corners.


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Carter Lockhart wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Carter Lockhart wrote:

Unless you can provide a reference from the designers that says otherwise, I would have to argue your skepticism does not agree with the rules.

If the intention was to ignore the miss chance, I believe the designers would have been specific in that regard as they were with the text of Improved Precise Shot. I would also argue that if a specific target space is required, it renders the ability highly situational to the point of very minor value. For example, how often is a character going to be able to target a square around a corner into an otherwise unseen room? Yet the text basically outlines this as a usage.

Oh, it ignores normal limits on targeting them (such as around walls or while invisible) but I see nothing in the ability that allows one to know something is there in the first place. If you know it's there you can shoot it...but you need to know its there, and with a successful Stealth check, the Monk knows no such thing.

Actually, I would disagree on invisibility, as that is a specific status effect of it's own that does call out it requires pinpoint targeting. Trick shot does not ignore invisibility. Invisibility is just a status that also happens to grant greater concealment. A Zen archer would have to pin point an invisible creature first, prior to using trick shot to ignore the concealment.

Since we are just talking about Total Concealment, let's go a bit further into details so it doesn't get confused with invisibility.

SRD wrote:


Total Concealment
If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
So, normally a creature...

When it says you can't attack it, it is saying you have to attack the square and hope the miss chance is in your favor. It is not saying you can not make the attack at all. That is why it mentions the square. If you could not even generate an attack attempt against someone who had total concealment there would not even be a miss chance at all.

So now we know the attempt can be made, but only into the square that you think the target is in.

When trick shot mentions that you can hit targets it is talking about intended opponents. It's not saying you don't have to know what square they are in.

You seem to not realize that not all the rules are written by the exact same person, and while it is annoying different people will use different verbage. If they wanted to say "you don't have to know the square they are in", they would have said it.

A "target" is the "intended victim". It doesn't mean you ignore any effect that might make you miss. As an example "mirror image" uses the word target, but you can definitely not hit the intended target. The same applies here.

In addition there is also truestrike.

truestrike wrote:
You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.

As you can see a target(intended victim) can be concealed. You can't target them normally, but they are still targets for the purpose of the attack.

As for your argument of using 3 ki points that version only needs line of effect, not line of sight since there is no other way to make it work.

The first two however still need for you to choose the right square.


wraithstrike wrote:
When it says you can't attack it, it is saying you have to attack the square and hope the miss chance is in your favor. It is not saying you can not make the attack at all. That is why it mentions the square. If you could not even generate an attack attempt against someone who had total concealment there would not even be a miss chance at all.

I'm sorry, but you are making an interpretation and not staying to the text of the condition and I would require a errata or developer citation to take that as correct interpretation.

It clearly says in Total Concealment that you cannot attack a creature with it. You can instead attack a space, and if that space happens to contain the creature, there is a 50% miss chance to strike the creature as well, but the target is the space and not the creature. However, if Total Concealment is ignored, which is the text of trick shot, the creature may be attacked directly, and the direct attack no longer carries the miss chance of attacking a space.

wraithstrike wrote:
You seem to not realize that not all the rules are written by the exact same person, and while it is annoying different people will use different verbage. If they wanted to say "you don't have to know the square they are in", they would have said it.

Likewise, if they meant anything other than ignoring total concealment, which includes all stipulations of the ability included the targeting of random squares, I believe they would have written that. They chose the word ignore. As you've shown, if they meant specifically just the miss chance, they would have written that, as evidenced in True Strike and Great Precise Shot.

wraithstrike wrote:
A "target" is the "intended victim". It doesn't mean you ignore any effect that might make you miss. As an example "mirror image" uses the word target, but you can definitely not hit the intended target. The same applies here.

Mirror Image does not grant concealment or total concealment. Just like invisibility grants the invisibility status instead of purely total concealment. As it is not stated that Trick shot overcomes these effects, they are valid defenses. However, the fact that these defenses remains doesn't mean that trick shot is foiled by the defensive abilities it explicitly ignores.

wraithstrike wrote:
In addition there is also truestrike.

Again, this is not equivalent wording. It is not an equivalent effect. Please find another ability that states it ignores concealment and total concealment and has been clarified to require pinpoint targeting and I will take that as a sufficient ruling. What you are trying to do is like using the rules for armor bonuses to explain that a dodge bonus to AC doesn't stack, they are different and Paizo has sufficient standards in abilities and the chance to errata this ability that I trust the written ability is the intention.

wraithstrike wrote:

As you can see a target(intended victim) can be concealed. You can't target them normally, but they are still targets for the purpose of the attack.

As for your argument of using 3 ki points that version only needs line of effect, not line of sight since there is no other way to make it work.

So, you will admit that the 3 ki ability doesn't require the exact space to be known? Then really your objection is that a Zen Archer could overcome the Black Butterfly's ability by having to spend 3 points instead of just 2 per attack round? That still seems a sufficiently easy counter.


Alright, let’s see.

Charisma=18+2 racial+5 from levels+5 inherent (five chained wishes)+6 from headband+3 from Oenopion Researcher Alchemist cohorts who only need to be level 12 for the Greater Cognatogen, as the Grand version won’t make a difference (still probably have the cohorts at 17th level though)+5 from the 3000 GP cost of the spell Genius Avaricious=17 modifier. So we are almost half way there already.

Now I’m lazy, and don’t want to go through all the possible sorcerer builds to find one that works, so if somebody wants to finish what I started, go ahead, but what I can do is figure out the average damage if Black Butterfly makes her saves.

Metamagic Gems hold a Quickened one, and a Maximized one, and get 76 damage average on a successful reflex save, then a 45.5 on a successful reflex save, so you get 121.5 damage in one turn per sorcerer. So 6 sorcerers beating her initiative will kill her on average.

Now obviously somebody needs to be Mythic to get past the regeneration, but that shouldn’t be a problem.

Liberty's Edge

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Wouldn't an AMF turn off her own deeper darkness?

So anywhere thats bright naturally she has to choose between her spells and as such her Silence between ability and the protection of AMF?

Thats a pretty interesting defense.

Yup.

Lemartes wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
5. Tetori
This is what I was thinking. What happens if she's grappled by something she can't get away from?

There's no such thing. She explicitly can't be prevented from taking 5 foot steps and can thus use The Silence Between to get away. Yes, even when Dimensional Anchored or in an AMF.

.
.
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Alpha Strikes by high level spellcasters (either individually or en masse) work if she's not using AMF and starts the fight not stealth-ed (the latter is basically never gonna happen). Or if the casters survive long enough to use such abilities as a Readied Action once she attacks (which is much more practical, though again this requires no AMF).

With her AMF up...catching her in a forcecage might work (or at least cramp her style), and a ranged build specialized in Readied Actions, or with truly absurd Perception, can probably take her down eventually if they manage to survive her attacks.

And...that's pretty close to it for non-Mythic characters taking her out. Which is appropriate given that she's CR 28.


wraithstrike wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
Heightened Daylight.

And how many times have you ever seen that combination on a caster?

She also has at will Greater Dispel Magic with a CL 28, just in case someone makes it bright out there.

None, but if someone is going to fight her they would likely know the fight is coming, and be able to make it happen. Going for a special solution for a special enemy is not uncommon.

This. I damned well made sure I had heightened daylight last time I knew I was going to get stuck facing demons with at will Deeper Darkness. The same would apply here.

As an aside: Elemental Body III and IV grant immunity to sneak attack damage. My casters will nearly always have at least one memorized. I tend to play elemental themed casters.


Hey, all you folk that are worried about heightened Daylight:

Brightest Light from Inner Sea Intrigue is a thing, it lasts forever, and it has some swift-action dispel if needed be. It's not really that fancy, but it probably beats a heightened Daylight at least.

Also, if we are talking ranged readied actions, the Overwatch Style featline exists.


I always think it's funny when players assume their characters will know everything about a high level enemy's stack block.

I also think it's funny when discussions like this come up, and hyper-specialized builds are proposed to deal with it, as if the players (and by extension, the characters) knew all along what the final boss of the 20 level long adventuring career would be and made all of their choices with that in mind.

(Yes, there is re-training, but that eats into your WBL, more significantly the later it is done.)

Sort of like the proposed party of all non-magical flying martials, or the party of six sorcerers. I'm curious how often anyone has seen such a party actually played.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
And...that's pretty close to it for non-Mythic characters taking her out.

I was thinking that her aura of silence would prevent a Ferdinand-style Bewildering Koan build from locking her down, but it looks like with her truespeech ability all the gnome would need to do is learn some form of sign language to ask his impossible questions in. He still wouldn't be able to defeat her by himself, I think, since she's immune to his primary finishing tactics of a) ability damage, b) suffocation, and c) waiting for his enemies to fall asleep. But with any allies of reasonable power, he should be able to make short work of her.


Saldiven wrote:

I always think it's funny when players assume their characters will know everything about a high level enemy's stack block.

I also think it's funny when discussions like this come up, and hyper-specialized builds are proposed to deal with it, as if the players (and by extension, the characters) knew all along what the final boss of the 20 level long adventuring career would be and made all of their choices with that in mind.

(Yes, there is re-training, but that eats into your WBL, more significantly the later it is done.)

Sort of like the proposed party of all non-magical flying martials, or the party of six sorcerers. I'm curious how often anyone has seen such a party actually played.

This isn’t what most people in this thread are doing though.

The main strategies for damage are not specialised to deal with the butterfly at all. They’re just generic mythic damage builds.
The contingency spell is one Mythic spell that one would be mad not to take if one could.
The Polymorph Adept was made before Blackbutterfly was released
Beating its initiative is so mind bendingly easy with Mythic it’s not even funny.

The only one that seems strategised specifically for black butterfly is the leadership rain of arrows build.

Other people have also theorised ways of beating its stealth with perception (including me) but I did that simply to show it could be done. It’s not what I suggest one do, because hanging out in a bright place with a daylight contingency up is leagues of magnitude easier.


Saldiven wrote:

I always think it's funny when players assume their characters will know everything about a high level enemy's stack block.

I also think it's funny when discussions like this come up, and hyper-specialized builds are proposed to deal with it, as if the players (and by extension, the characters) knew all along what the final boss of the 20 level long adventuring career would be and made all of their choices with that in mind.

(Yes, there is re-training, but that eats into your WBL, more significantly the later it is done.)

Sort of like the proposed party of all non-magical flying martials, or the party of six sorcerers. I'm curious how often anyone has seen such a party actually played.

There is literally a thread a little bit down talking about an all same class party. It happens more often than you think. As for the sorcerers, what makes you think this is a hyper-specialized build or that the characters know they are going against Black Butterfly. For that matter, what makes you think they WOULDN’T know that’s who they are fighting ahead of time? One doesn’t simply fight a friggen demigod without having prior knowledge that said fight would occur. Even if they worship an evil deity, that deity would 100% definitely tell them that’s who they are going against, so that they have at least a chance at killing one of said evil deity’s enemies. As for the build, it literally goes against everyone, so not “hyper-specialized”. Nobody is surviving a storm of arrows going their way.


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deadmanwalking wrote:
This whole set of strategies assumes you can find her (which assumes the ability to make DC 83 or more likely DC 93 or so Perception checks, given she'll be 100+ feet away). If you can do that surrounding her is almost superfluous, since you can attack her anyway.

And this whole thread is about dealing with Silence Between, which means the premise is that you have a reasonable distance and chance to find her and are in an encounter with her. No one cares if she's slipping between breaths off in Alpha Centauri. You keep ignoring the encounter as a whole and turning each tactic into a standalone vignette or ignoring that the encounter likely contains at least a 4-person party of competent, likely specialized, individuals (with cohorts, companions, familiars, etc.).

Quote:

Actually...nothing says her DR is Supernatural, so I'm not sure if she keeps it in an AMF. Though, if facing hardcore casters, it's totally worth losing the DR for complete magic immunity.

Also, once again, finding her to do this is around DC 83 to 93.

Actually, everything says that. Damage Reduction is either Supernatural or Extraordinary. A barbarian's is specifically listed as Ex, hers is not. The rule of thumb in either case where it is undetermined is that damage type DR (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing) is not affected by AMF. A skeleton in an AMF is still as resistant to being stabbed because it's a skeleton. Any other DR (special materials, alignment, magic) is lost in an AMF (unless it is specifically not Supernatural). Black Butterfly's DR would be lost in an AMF unless specifically called out as functioning for another reason.

You don't have to find her (for the listed tactics), you just have to guess what square(s) she's in, which is noticeable easily by where her attacks originate from.

Quote:
And I'm positive she can Silence Between right out of grapples (since she's immune to being stopped from making 5 foot steps). Her CMD of 78 is also pretty hard to hit for the vast majority of even optimized 20th level characters.

No, a pedantic reading would prevent her from moving or flying, because 'the effect of those actions' would prevent her from taking a 5-foot step. That's not how it works, it does what it says, no more no less. It doesn't offer blanket prevention of everything.

Her CMD notwithstanding, and it is high, that's not a negation of an attack type and the example of a grapple was only one type of action that can prevent movement. I can only say this so many times, her Celestial Grace does not stop her from being grappled, paralyzed, glued to a floor, or held in place. Is she immune to all of that? Yes, but for completely different reasons. In an AMF, she would lose one of those reasons (freedom of movement). The fact that her movement cannot be reduced (specifically worded that way) and nothing can prevent her making a 5-foot step does not mean that when she can't actually move, she can ignore it. When grappled, you cannot move (without breaking free, even dragging you opponent wouldn't let you 5-foot step). If there's no place for you to 5-foot step, even if you aren't actually going to move into the space 5-feet from you (because you're slipping to another square within 150 feet), you can't 5-foot step.

Quote:
A forcecage is, in fact, stopped (or more accurately temporarily suppressed) by antimagic field.

It is, in fact, not stopped or even suppressed. It is specifically not affected any more than a wall of force (which isn't affected.) True, if she had AMF up (which is not considered the norm) then you couldn't form it around her within the field), but once up, it's up. Yes, her Reflex is high, that's fair. Having a Saving Throw is not a negation of the attack, she could pass, she could fail. She's more likely to pass is all you can say.

Quote:
All spells are [negated by antimagic field].

Many are, but no. There are several that are unaffected. I am not going to quote them, my posts get long enough. You can find them listed in AMF's description or in their own (granted force cage references wall of force which is called out in antimagic field's description, so it is understandable that you (or anyone) might not realize that at first.

Quote:
I'm very skeptical that your whole party is gonna all have non-magical flight to do this with (especially sufficient non-magical flight to make the moves required), and if she starts at 60 feet up (and she has no reason not to) that's what you'd need to do this through an AMF.

You don't need the whole party to be, though having flying mounts for even a whole party of that level ('that level' being of a level that is considered to have a fair chance of encountering and defeating/driving her off) is not unreasonable. You only need two or so with jetpacks, flying suits, wings (more likely strangely), a pegasus/griffon mount, etc. That's not unlikely. As for her flying at the start, that's reasonable. We don't know the battlefield, it's ambiguous. It could just as easily be the Ethereal or Astral plane or anywhere with subjective movement and gravity, but it could just as easily be within a cavern (large) or a canyon, we can't be certain since that wasn't what the thread was about.

Certainly you can take steps that make the terrain to your advantage. You can use a spell as simple as wall of stone to begin enclosing the area. A high-level caster gets lots of area, sectioning areas around her (if AMF is up then around that), and even able to create a ceiling above her head assuming there's an anchoring area within about 100 feet, which isn't an unreasonable assumption (and if there isn't, another wall of stone can make an anchor side if the one doesn't have the area). You can even use it to build a ramp, thus 'raising' the floor up to where she may be flying. Is it the most elegant, probably not, but it's doable and not a twisting of its wording and wall of stone/iron would remain even if she moved her AMF over it.

As for bullrushing, that was just an example that there are methods to move her about the battlefield that she can't prevent. Are some of them difficult, yes, but that is just one example. Strong winds can still blow her around (she can't be checked or have her movement slowed) if they aren't magical or their force originates outside her AMF (which would suppress her FoM).

Quote:
I'm likewise very skeptical of the ability of minions of any sort to survive a full attack from her...

Possibly, but most cohorts, animal companions, etc. are probably tough enough to take a round or two. Even then, If you have even mid-level henchman taking total cover from tower shields, she can't attack them (I would let her attack the shields, to try and sunder I suppose, but then she'd be provoking AoOs herself). She has about 3 options, her 1/day implosion will likely work and destroy one, so that is an option (but not in AMF which is what you are continually asserting). Her starmotes could daze one, but that wouldn't let her step into his space. Her holyword would most likely paralyze any henchmen, which would let her step into their space . That's assuming they are non-good, which is reasonable, since she's good, but again, there are numerous ways to have a creature count as a certain alignment for such spells (trust me, there are reasonable ways, even non-magical traits, feats, or just natural racial inclinations). Her holy smite wouldn't even work, since they'd have total cover from her (it's a burst, unlike holyword which is a spread. The henchmen don't necessarily have to be able to go toe-to-toe with her, just soak a reasonable amount of damage (even if we do consider Voidsedge to be an artifact and maintain its extra damage in her own AMF). Yes, she would get an AoO if they move up, yes she can take about 16 per round, but that's still only 1 per 'henchman', which at this level should be able to survive 1 hit, even a good one. Plus, again, it's assumed some of the flankers will be actual party members.

Quote:
Also, once again, finding her to do this is around DC 83 to 93.

Even assuming it was that tough, you don't have to 'find' her to use most of these tactics. You just have to know where she is. Dimensional lock or teleport trap cover an area. You don't target them. Just because you don't see her at first doesn't mean you don't know what square(s) she's attack from. You just move up to them. Yes, she'd get AoO if you move through threatened. Yes, she'd get one if you accidently tried to enter her square. At that point, most character will know where she is and whether they can see her to directly target her has no bearing on surrounding her or on their area effects. Is it tough? Yes, will some people die, maybe. But it is a valid counter to Silence Between? Yes.

In your examples with raising, dropping, casting a certain spell, and possibly re-raising AMF to counter certain tactics, you may forget she only gets AFM 3/day and also that it takes her standard action to dismiss it, which means she can't cast that round and thus would be subject to any effects you're claiming couldn't affect her (daylights, summoned flyers (which a caster of that level could have many with just a few low-level summons) that even if they were blinked out by the AMF would then appear around her), the area effects that were just suppressed, etc.)


You ready the battlefield in such a way that you put her where you want her. You create, bring, or have constructed a large iron cage and have your teleport trap (which duexhero noted could be done within a round with a wish, available easily enough to a party of that level) direct her into it for when she tries to use her [i]interplanetary teleport to avoid being surrounded. You would more likely do this with a forcecage, which would not allow her a Reflex save for being put into it. She would get one for the teleport trap but then she wouldn't move at all if she passed, as noted in a previous post.

Heck, with a normal large cage, you could have one caster wall of stone a suitable column or support up to beneath her and just teleport object the cage around her (it has to appear on a solid surface and that would not be considered occupying her space, since it would be around her). Even a mid-level caster can get a suitably large cage transported. If she somehow had AMF up, that might prevent it, but since that's a tactic that can be done within one round (is she really going to be threatened or scared seeing a cage way down on the ground) she might not realize the threat in time.

A spell as simple as burst with light would negate her Silence Between. It targets a creature (not her, you place it on an ally or even yourself if need be). It only does 2d6 damage (half with a save) so not likely to really be a factor. It will last 4 to 5 rounds at these levels and its effect is not an area or radius, it is on the creature, so unless the target or Black Butterfly moves to cover the recipient, the emanating light still raises the ambient lighting within 30 feet (greater than AMF's radius). Putting it on multiple creatures is easy enough, it's low level comparatively speaking, and as a 4th-level spell is not restricted by deeper darkness (though since its emanation isn't magic for purposes of AMF, it probably would be stopped by deeper darkness, but then, there's countless other ways that have been noted to negate that. Just a daylight in the area, for instance). That means she cannot Silence Between.


I'm still erring on the side of Empyreal Lords are Deities since they count for Deific Obedience by the rules. As such they may be personally unaffected by AMF and this will vary (unless Paizo speaks up) table to table.


Pizza Lord wrote:


In an AMF, she would lose one of those reasons (freedom of movement).

Tetori:

Inescapable Grasp (Su)

At 9th level, a tetori can spend 1 point from his ki pool to suppress his opponents’ freedom of movement and magical bonuses to Escape Artist or on checks to escape a grapple. At 13th level, this ability also duplicates the effect of dimensional anchor. At 17th level, the tetori’s unarmed strike gains the ghost touch special ability, and an incorporeal creature that he strikes gains the grappled condition (Reflex negates, DC 10 + 1/2 the wrestler’s level + his Wisdom modifier). Inescapable grasp is a swift action and lasts until the beginning of the wrestler’s next turn.

I'm still thinking a Tetori could hold her in place. Agree?


Carter Lockhart wrote:
That still seems a sufficiently easy counter.

Ki points are limited and not every class has this ability. I'd say it's very niche with regard to this encounter, and I disagree with your interpretation on the 1 and 2 point uses of the ability, but I dont either of us will convince the other.

Liberty's Edge

Pizza Lord wrote:
And this whole thread is about dealing with Silence Between, which means the premise is that you have a reasonable distance and chance to find her and are in an encounter with her. No one cares if she's slipping between breaths off in Alpha Centauri. You keep ignoring the encounter as a whole and turning each tactic into a standalone vignette or ignoring that the encounter likely contains at least a 4-person party of competent, likely specialized, individuals (with cohorts, companions, familiars, etc.).

Sure it does, but in order to surround her and prevent her from moving we're starting to get so hyper specialized to fight her specifically it's starting to be ridiculous.

Like I've said, several other tactics presented absolutely work. I'm just not believing in this one.

Pizza Lord wrote:
Actually, everything says that. Damage Reduction is either Supernatural or Extraordinary. A barbarian's is specifically listed as Ex, hers is not. The rule of thumb in either case where it is undetermined is that damage type DR (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing) is not affected by AMF. A skeleton in an AMF is still as resistant to being stabbed because it's a skeleton. Any other DR (special materials, alignment, magic) is lost in an AMF (unless it is specifically not Supernatural). Black Butterfly's DR would be lost in an AMF unless specifically called out as functioning for another reason.

Where is this rule of thumb stated? Because I can't find any Pathfinder rule specifying anything in regards to what DR is Supernatural and what isn't.

Pizza Lord wrote:
You don't have to find her (for the listed tactics), you just have to guess what square(s) she's in, which is noticeable easily by where her attacks originate from.

Uh...have you been paying attention to how Black Butterfly works? She attacks, then 5-foot steps. Any round she can't do this, she simply lurks. You need to pinpoint her before she attacks in order to make the tactic you suggest work...unless the whole party has 150 feet flight speeds and Readied Actions, anyway.

Which is not an assumed part of the capabilities of even most optimized 20th level parties.

Pizza Lord wrote:
No, a pedantic reading would prevent her from moving or flying, because 'the effect of those actions' would prevent her from taking a 5-foot step. That's not how it works, it does what it says, no more no less. It doesn't offer blanket prevention of everything.

Actually, no. Celestial Grace specifies an immunity to effects. That's a specific game term with a specific meaning. It's why she's able to step out of being grappled, but not if surrounded RAW. Grappled has an effect, mechanically speaking. Being surrounded does not have an effect in the same sense, nor does moving herself.

Pizza Lord wrote:
Her CMD notwithstanding, and it is high, that's not a negation of an attack type and the example of a grapple was only one type of action that can prevent movement. I can only say this so many times, her Celestial Grace does not stop her from being grappled, paralyzed, glued to a floor, or held in place. Is she immune to all of that? Yes, but for completely different reasons. In an AMF, she would lose one of those reasons (freedom of movement). The fact that her movement cannot be reduced (specifically worded that way) and nothing can prevent her making a 5-foot step does not mean that when she can't actually move, she can ignore it. When grappled, you cannot move (without breaking free, even dragging you opponent wouldn't let you 5-foot step). If there's no place for you to 5-foot step, even if you aren't actually going to move into the space 5-feet from you (because you're slipping to another square within 150 feet), you can't 5-foot step.

I disagree on grapple. All that prevents you from 5-foot stepping there is the rules of the grapple condition. Which she ignores, at least inasmuch as they prevent 5-foot steps. If you can impose conditions and remove her ability to 5-foot step the line in Celestial Grace making her immune to such things is pretty meaningless and you're clearly going against the spirit, and, I'm pretty sure, the letter of the rules as well.

Now, I do agree that RAW surrounding her stops her from making a 5-foot step. I think that's dumb, mind you, and super counter-thematic, but it is RAW. All I've ever been arguing in that regard is the logistical difficulty of managing it, not that it wouldn't work in theory.

Pizza Lord wrote:
It is, in fact, not stopped or even suppressed. It is specifically not affected any more than a wall of force (which isn't affected.) True, if she had AMF up (which is not considered the norm) then you couldn't form it around her within the field), but once up, it's up. Yes, her Reflex is high, that's fair. Having a Saving Throw is not a negation of the attack, she could pass, she could fail. She's more likely to pass is all you can say.

I actually already admitted I was probably wrong here. Forcecage likely works if you can catch her with it. Of course, what do yoiu do with her once she's in one? She can easily ready an action to do all sorts of stuff once you drop it (and has decent odds to save against it in the first place).

Pizza Lord wrote:
You don't need the whole party to be, though having flying mounts for even a whole party of that level ('that level' being of a level that is considered to have a fair chance of encountering and defeating/driving her off) is not unreasonable. You only need two or so with jetpacks, flying suits, wings (more likely strangely), a pegasus/griffon mount, etc. That's not unlikely. As for her flying at the start, that's reasonable. We don't know the battlefield, it's ambiguous. It could just as easily be the Ethereal or Astral plane or anywhere with subjective movement and gravity, but it could just as easily be within a cavern (large) or a canyon, we can't be certain since that wasn't what the thread was about.

Many of those options are supernatural or otherwise magical on the vast majority of characters who have them. And, again, something like a Pegasus or Griffon Mount comes in for a full attack, dies, and she 5-foot steps out.

And yeah, environment is unspecified, but 20 foot ceilings aren't exactly uncommon (and are the minimum necessary for most of what I'm talking about coming into play...one person can be on foot for 20 foot ceilings, at 25 everyone needs to fly).

Pizza Lord wrote:
Certainly you can take steps that make the terrain to your advantage. You can use a spell as simple as wall of stone to begin enclosing the area. A high-level caster gets lots of area, sectioning areas around her (if AMF is up then around that), and even able to create a ceiling above her head assuming there's an anchoring area within about 100 feet, which isn't an unreasonable assumption (and if there isn't, another wall of stone can make an anchor side if the one doesn't have the area). You can even use it to build a ramp, thus 'raising' the floor up to where she may be flying. Is it the most elegant, probably not, but it's doable and not a twisting of its wording and wall of stone/iron would remain even if she moved her AMF over it.

Right...but doing all this in a round and surrounding her is a pretty tall order.

Pizza Lord wrote:
As for bullrushing, that was just an example that there are methods to move her about the battlefield that she can't prevent. Are some of them difficult, yes, but that is just one example. Strong winds can still blow her around (she can't be checked or have her movement slowed) if they aren't magical or their force originates outside her AMF (which would suppress her FoM).

This is technically true. If you somehow manage to give her a -20 non-magical penalty to Fly (I have no idea how to do this, it may be impossible). She has a +57, even with the -16 from the highest winds possible, she's got a +41 and the check to avoid getting blown anywhere is DC 25. There are no auto-failures on skill checks.

Pizza Lord wrote:
Possibly, but most cohorts, animal companions, etc. are probably tough enough to take a round or two. Even then, If you have even mid-level henchman taking total cover from tower shields, she can't attack them (I would let her attack the shields, to try and sunder I suppose, but then she'd be provoking AoOs herself). She has about 3 options, her 1/day implosion will likely work and destroy one, so that is an option (but not in AMF which is what you are continually asserting). Her starmotes could daze one, but that wouldn't let her step into his space. Her holyword would most likely paralyze any henchmen, which would let her step into their space . That's assuming they are non-good, which is reasonable, since she's good, but again, there are numerous ways to have a creature count as a certain alignment for such spells (trust me, there are reasonable ways, even non-magical traits, feats, or just natural racial inclinations). Her holy smite wouldn't even work, since they'd have total cover from her (it's a burst, unlike holyword which is a spread. The henchmen don't necessarily have to be able to go toe-to-toe with her, just soak a reasonable amount of damage (even if we do consider Voidsedge to be an artifact and maintain its extra damage in her own AMF). Yes, she would get an AoO if they move up, yes she can take about 16 per round, but that's still only 1 per 'henchman', which at this level should be able to survive 1 hit, even a good one. Plus, again, it's assumed some of the flankers will be actual party members.

Uh...we're talking people in melee with her. They'd need to be Large to get total cover from her in melee. How are they doing that non-magically? Are we now assuming your cohorts are all flying giants?

My point was not that she will slaughter all minions under all circumstances, it's that if they're part of the group surrounding her, her melee full attack will drop them, leaving her free to 5 foot step.

Pizza Lord wrote:
Even assuming it was that tough, you don't have to 'find' her to use most of these tactics. You just have to know where she is. Dimensional lock or teleport trap cover an area. You don't target them. Just because you don't see her at first doesn't mean you don't know what square(s) she's attack from. You just move up to them. Yes, she'd get AoO if you move through threatened. Yes, she'd get one if you accidently tried to enter her square. At that point, most character will know where she is and whether they can see her to directly target her has no bearing on surrounding her or on their area effects. Is it tough? Yes, will some people die, maybe. But it is a valid counter to Silence Between? Yes.

Which tactics? Surrounding her? Yeah, you need to know where she is for that one. You need a square anyway.

Again, the whole danger of Black Butterfly is that she attacks, and then before anything but readied actions occur (and as previously noted, surrounding her with readied actions is pretty close to impossible if she's using AMF...and you certainly won't be able to surround her then take Full Defenses), she vanishes and is now elsewhere. And you have no idea where.

Any round she can't do this, she doesn't attack. Black Butterfly just wins the waiting game if we're talking combat timescale. Only attacking every two turns will still win things for her eventually.

Also...what do you mean 'Even assuming it was that tough'? Black Butterfly has +73 Stealth to not be seen. Assuming a 10 and that she's 110 feet away (easily done) that's a DC 93 check. It's DC 83 even if you're right next to her. These DCs actually go up by 20 if she isn't moving.

Pizza Lord wrote:
In your examples with raising, dropping, casting a certain spell, and possibly re-raising AMF to counter certain tactics, you may forget she only gets AFM 3/day and also that it takes her standard action to dismiss it, which means she can't cast that round and thus would be subject to any effects you're claiming couldn't affect her (daylights, summoned flyers (which a caster of that level could have many with just a few low-level summons) that even if they were blinked out by the AMF would then appear around her), the area effects that were just suppressed, etc.)

Actually, the only time I suggested dropping AMF at all was to Interplanetary Teleport and leave the combat entirely.

Liberty's Edge

Lemartes wrote:
Pizza Lord wrote:


In an AMF, she would lose one of those reasons (freedom of movement).

Tetori:

Inescapable Grasp (Su)

At 9th level, a tetori can spend 1 point from his ki pool to suppress his opponents’ freedom of movement and magical bonuses to Escape Artist or on checks to escape a grapple. At 13th level, this ability also duplicates the effect of dimensional anchor. At 17th level, the tetori’s unarmed strike gains the ghost touch special ability, and an incorporeal creature that he strikes gains the grappled condition (Reflex negates, DC 10 + 1/2 the wrestler’s level + his Wisdom modifier). Inescapable grasp is a swift action and lasts until the beginning of the wrestler’s next turn.

I'm still thinking a Tetori could hold her in place. Agree?

My contention is that Celestial Grace, while it doesn't prevent her from being grappled, does prevent being grappled from restricting her movement. Meaning she can use Silence Between and step right out of a grapple.

Tetori can do nothing to stop this. They can grapple her and, with constrict, do damage on their turn...but then she simply steps out of the grapple.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Alpha Strikes by high level spellcasters (either individually or en masse) work if she's not using AMF and starts the fight not stealth-ed (the latter is basically never gonna happen). Or if the casters survive long enough to use such abilities as a Readied Action once she attacks (which is much more practical, though again this requires no AMF).

With her AMF up...catching her in a forcecage might work (or at least cramp her style), and a ranged build specialized in Readied Actions, or with truly absurd Perception, can probably take her down eventually if they manage to survive her attacks.

And...that's pretty close to it for non-Mythic characters taking her out. Which is appropriate given that she's CR 28.

Random NPC 9143 already had a +54 to Perception (or +56?). Throw on a CL 16 Acute Senses and they're up to +84. Probably a few more bits and bobs you can pick up to make it higher. Or, as I said last time, be a real class instead of an adept.

So I don't think Stealth is a real defense. It's possible (if not easy) to beat it and more to the point it's possible to beat it with one of her weaknesses (someone capable of alpha striking her with a spell). It's not even specialized for this, all it requires is a single buff spell to make it possible.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
Pizza Lord wrote:


In an AMF, she would lose one of those reasons (freedom of movement).

Tetori:

Inescapable Grasp (Su)

At 9th level, a tetori can spend 1 point from his ki pool to suppress his opponents’ freedom of movement and magical bonuses to Escape Artist or on checks to escape a grapple. At 13th level, this ability also duplicates the effect of dimensional anchor. At 17th level, the tetori’s unarmed strike gains the ghost touch special ability, and an incorporeal creature that he strikes gains the grappled condition (Reflex negates, DC 10 + 1/2 the wrestler’s level + his Wisdom modifier). Inescapable grasp is a swift action and lasts until the beginning of the wrestler’s next turn.

I'm still thinking a Tetori could hold her in place. Agree?

My contention is that Celestial Grace, while it doesn't prevent her from being grappled, does prevent being grappled from restricting her movement. Meaning she can use Silence Between and step right out of a grapple.

Tetori can do nothing to stop this. They can grapple her and, with constrict, do damage on their turn...but then she simply steps out of the grapple.

I think that’s how it would work too.


*increments absurdity*

Technically, it doesn't remove the grappled condition, which means the tetori still knows where she is.

grappled wrote:
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so.


The Sideromancer wrote:

*increments absurdity*

Technically, it doesn't remove the grappled condition, which means the tetori still knows where she is.

grappled wrote:
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so.

Nah, once she teleports she's no longer grappled.

So she 5ft steps, teleports, is no longer grappled, and stealths.

Paizo Employee Designer

HWalsh wrote:
The Sideromancer wrote:

*increments absurdity*

Technically, it doesn't remove the grappled condition, which means the tetori still knows where she is.

grappled wrote:
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so.

Nah, once she teleports she's no longer grappled.

So she 5ft steps, teleports, is no longer grappled, and stealths.

As a note, the movement ability in Silence Between is an extraordinary ability that is not a teleportation effect (relevant to the tetori example since the tetori also might have dimensional anchor).


Mark Seifter wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
The Sideromancer wrote:

*increments absurdity*

Technically, it doesn't remove the grappled condition, which means the tetori still knows where she is.

grappled wrote:
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so.

Nah, once she teleports she's no longer grappled.

So she 5ft steps, teleports, is no longer grappled, and stealths.

As a note, the movement ability in Silence Between is an extraordinary ability that is not a teleportation effect (relevant to the tetori example since the tetori also might have dimensional anchor).

Oh hey! While you are here!

Does Black Butterfly count as a Deity for the purposes of being unaffected by her own Anti-Magic Field?


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Random NPC 9143 already had a +54 to Perception (or +56?). Throw on a CL 16 Acute Senses and they're up to +84. Probably a few more bits and bobs you can pick up to make it higher. Or, as I said last time, be a real class instead of an adept.

Huh, running back through the numbers, I think it's actually as high as +62 (20 ranks, +16 Wisdom, +6 Skill Focus, +4 Alertness, +8 demon senses, +5 eyes of the eagle, +3 ioun stones). We could boost that up to +65 pretty easily by making it a class skill through the fey magic alternate racial trait, and up to +67 if he manage to get his hands on a masterwork tool. Toss in that scroll of acute senses, and we're up to +97. A simple spyglass can halve any distance penalty. And don't forget he can get an automatic 20 if he really needs to with his cyclops helm.

Paizo Employee Designer

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HWalsh wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
The Sideromancer wrote:

*increments absurdity*

Technically, it doesn't remove the grappled condition, which means the tetori still knows where she is.

grappled wrote:
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so.

Nah, once she teleports she's no longer grappled.

So she 5ft steps, teleports, is no longer grappled, and stealths.

As a note, the movement ability in Silence Between is an extraordinary ability that is not a teleportation effect (relevant to the tetori example since the tetori also might have dimensional anchor).

Oh hey! While you are here!

Does Black Butterfly count as a Deity for the purposes of being unaffected by her own Anti-Magic Field?

I certainly thought she did when I wrote her, but honestly, while this interaction is in the form of a rules question, the question of whether an empyreal lord like Black Butterfly counts as a type of deity in our cosmology or is something else is actually more of a setting question that James would be able to answer best. Here's one piece of evidence towards yes: an adventure I GMed that James wrote had a demon lord of similar CR (Pazuzu) who gave an oracle her curse, which is also something that requires deity level power to mess with. It's also possible that the answer might be something like "They count as deities in their home realm but not elsewhere" (realms are tricky, they give a bunch of advantages like mythic versions of spells and such) but ultimately it's a setting question.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Demigods do indeed count as deities for the purposes of being unaffected by antimagic fields.

Quasi-deities (including characters with the Divine Source mythic ability) do not.


Sweet! So...

Okay... This means that she can AMF and be uneffected by it.

Wow... She has enough AMF to keep AMF charged for 280 minutes a pop, 4.666 hours, so err to 4.5 hours per use... She can do it 3 times a day... So, she probably has AMF up for at least 14 hours a day.

Meaning characters have a very small window of opportunity to nail her when she may not have it active.

So... Okay that is information we now have.

That, I think, kills many people's avenue of attack on her.

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