Does using Brawler's Flurry with a two-handed weapon incur TWF penalties of -2 / -2 or-4 / -4?


Rules Questions


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When using Brawler's Flurry to make multiple attacks with a one-handed or two-handed weapon such as a tiger fork or temple sword, are the two-weapon fighting penalties -2/-2 or -4/-4?

This thread debating the point has 300+ posts and counting, and the only consensus seems to be that the rules are not defined. Specifically, the rules assume an "off-hand weapon", and don't cover the case that the primary weapon and the off-hand weapon are the same (except in specific cases with spelled-out rules like double weapons and chained Flurry of Blows.)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
PRD wrote:

Brawler's Flurry (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.

A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler's flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler's flurry. A brawler with natural weapons can't use such weapons as part of brawler's flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler's flurry attacks.

At 8th level, the brawler gains use of the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using brawler's flurry. At 15th level, she gains use of the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using brawler's flurry.

The name notwithstanding brawler flurry ha nothing to do with the monk flurry.

It gives:
1) access to TWF (but you aren't forced to use it);
2) full strength on both hands, but you lose the x1.5 for using a weapon in two hands;
It don't give:
1) extra attacks unless you are using two weapons.

So, if you are using a single weapon, there is no reason to use brawler flurry.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
So, if you are using a single weapon, there is no reason to use brawler flurry.

Brawler's flurry: "She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability."

So you are quite incorrect.


RumpinRufus wrote:

When using Brawler's Flurry to make multiple attacks with a one-handed or two-handed weapon such as a tiger fork or temple sword, are the two-weapon fighting penalties -2/-2 or -4/-4?

This thread debating the point has 300+ posts and counting, and the only consensus seems to be that the rules are not defined. Specifically, the rules assume an "off-hand weapon", and don't cover the case that the primary weapon and the off-hand weapon are the same (except in specific cases with spelled-out rules like double weapons and chained Flurry of Blows.)

I don't agree. I think a consensus opinion was developed that represented 70% of the participants. A vocal minority think otherwise.


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On the basis that there is no real off hand involved in a Brawler's flurry, my general feeling is that it is a -2/-2 penalty regardless. You are making all the attacks in the flurry with your main hand weapon. If you are "wielding" anything else, it's your unarmed strike, which is a light weapon, so there is no cause for increased penalties.


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Perfect Tommy wrote:
I think a consensus opinion was developed that represented 70% of the participants.

A few of you may have made 70% of the posts, but I wouldn't call that 70% consensus...


Nor I. Nor did I.


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There have been a many posts about this since ACG came out. The majority have ruled a -2 penalty is the intent for all weapons over the years.

It makes the most sense based on:
- the twf exceptions written into Brawler's Flurry,
- handedness rules, and
- general flurry rules (the ability is called a Flurry after all)

The -2 penalty seems pretty obvious to most but it would be great to get an official ruling so this is put to bed once and for all.


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Weighed in


Bladelock wrote:

There have been a many posts about this since ACG came out. The majority have ruled a -2 penalty is the intent for all weapons over the years.

It makes the most sense based on:
- the twf exceptions written into Brawler's Flurry,
- handedness rules, and
- general flurry rules (the ability is called a Flurry after all)

The -2 penalty seems pretty obvious to most but it would be great to get an official ruling so this is put to bed once and for all.

Hmm. Many posts? Only one threadheretofore linked, which had a grand total of what 7 posts? 9? Seems like you should provide some evidence when making such a statement.

Calling an ability a Flurry conveys zero meaning. I've already pointed you to the flavor text that called the leprechaun a humanoid, rather than fey.

You might as well say it does cold damage because DQ has a frozen drink called a Flurry.


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It's probably not appropriate to continue the argument (or create a meta-argument) in the FAQ thread created because the other thread was a sprawling mess.

I know how I would rule, but I hit FAQ anyway.


Please stop with the dripping condesension, but hey since you want to ask for some links here ya go. this is just the first page of a search for brawlers flurry penalties. Guess you didn't want to look to hard.


Brawler's Flurry Offhand Penalty

Questions about flurry

Weapon size question

Here we are again about the scizore and penalties

As to flavor and trying to act like your above that I think that this was you

PossibleCabbage wrote:
It just seems that in terms of RAI the Brawler, who is a hybrid of the fighter (traditionally very good with 2 handed weapons) and the monk (not traditionally that good with 2-handed weapons) should not be worse at flurrying with a 7-branched sword than the monk is.

First,

Both by its name, and by the fact that the class focuses on close weapons, and on common english usage "barroom brawler" it seems clear that the brawler focuses on close type "light" weapons.

As such it is not surprising that it is less good with 2h weapons.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

It's probably not appropriate to continue the argument (or create a meta-argument) in the FAQ thread created because the other thread was a sprawling mess.

I know how I would rule, but I hit FAQ anyway.

I think this thread is the appropriate place to continue discussion. After all, this issue was tangential to the original Power Attack thread.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
graystone wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
So, if you are using a single weapon, there is no reason to use brawler flurry.

Brawler's flurry: "She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability."

So you are quite incorrect.

Yes, when you use Brawler flurry you receive:

"When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.

A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler's flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler's flurry. A brawler with natural weapons can't use such weapons as part of brawler's flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler's flurry attacks."

So what that give you when using a single weapon? None of the extra attacks that you get for using two weapons. The ability don't say anything about giving them if you are using a single weapon. You get the feats, but the extra attack come from using the feats.

You can substitute " disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler's flurry". Well, you can substitute them to normal attacks in an iterative attack, so nothing here.

What you cite literally say "She does not need to use two different weapons to use [brawler flurry]."
Good, but that don't mean "She will get the benefits of two weapon combat if not using two weapon combat".
To get that, the monk has a completely different text: " Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat."
The ability explicitly state that the monk get an extra attack, and then explain how it work.
Your (apparent) interpretation can be what the writer meant, but is totally contrary to the text of the feat.


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Player: I am using Brawler's Flurry and using a full round action to use the two-weapon fighting action which by the core rules say "you can gain an extra attack."

GM: Okay, which weapon is your main weapon and which item is your off-hand weapon?

Player: Brawler's Flurry says I do not need to use two different weapons, so I will be making all the attacks with my temple sword. What are my modifiers?

Cue thread.


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Looks like every possible avenue has been discussed at this point in an attempt to resolve a glaring ambiguity in one of the brawler class's two primary class abilities. FAQ'd as hard as I could.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Player: I am using Brawler's Flurry and using a full round action to use the two-weapon fighting action which by the core rules say "you can gain an extra attack."

GM: Okay, which weapon is your main weapon and which item is your off-hand weapon?

Player: Brawler's Flurry says I do not need to use two different weapons, so I will be making all the attacks with my temple sword. What are my modifiers?

Cue thread.

The GM question is wrong.

There is only one question needed:

What attack is the extra attack. From that, everything else is determined.


*casts raise thread*

was this answered? I can't tell how to figure out if an FAQ was answered


We’ve had a bit of a FAQ drought with UW coming out. But this is an old question that has been ignored for a long time, so I wouldn’t expect an answer soon.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Player: I am using Brawler's Flurry and using a full round action to use the two-weapon fighting action which by the core rules say "you can gain an extra attack."

GM: Okay, which weapon is your main weapon and which item is your off-hand weapon?

Player: Brawler's Flurry says I do not need to use two different weapons, so I will be making all the attacks with my temple sword. What are my modifiers?

Cue thread.

Is this case they would be -4 / -4.

The second use of the Temple Sword checks to see if its a light weapon.
As per the TWF feat.

slin2678 wrote:


A) Brawler can use Brawler's flurry as TWF but does not have to use two different weapons for this ability and apply full strenght bonus to damage.
B) Brawlers can always UAS, which is a light weapon.
C) Use the TWF with light weapon in off-hand penalty.


No one on this thread uses Hero Lab? Pretty simple way to get the answer.


That's assuming that Hero lab's interpretation is accurate. Hero lab is a great tool but it has been wrong before on how it interpreted a rule or set of rules.


I also wonder if the Brawler is using a single weapon; is it both their main-hand and off-hand weapon? That is can their first attack with it be their off-hand attack (or one of their off-hand attacks with higher levels or improved/greater TWF) and then use Duelist Vambraces to, "reduce any penalties on attack rolls made with that weapon by 2."


Yeah, Hero Lab is pretty solid, but they aren't foolproof.

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