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Hello Folks,
I try to answer by myself, I’m not sure..
Brawler’s Flurry: Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability. A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler’s flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. […]
Now my questions:
1) May I use Power Attack with flurry?
2) May I use a quartestaff (“monk” weapon) with flurry?
3) If is “yes” at first and “yes” at second then, how do they interact each other?
I think I can use Power attack even if maybe It is not convenient for the penalties. I am not sure for the second question. Two- weapon fighting requires you to use two weapons and imposes different penalties if your second weapon is light or not, but the brawler’s flurry lets you attack with the same weapon and says you can use a “monk” weapon (so quarterstaff seems included), so.. I have no idea XD
If I can use Quartestaff on flurry then my power attack gains the x1.5 for using two-handed weapon and my streght? How about her?
Sorry.. maybe it’s just impossible but I want know it for sure.
Ps. Sorry for my *not very good at all* english, I’m an italian girl with a lot to learn XD
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1) Yes. Power Attack isn't an action of its own, so you can use it with attacks in a flurry. If you use it, you have to use it on all of your attacks.
2) Quarterstaffs have the "monk" weapon quality, so you can use a Quarterstaff in a flurry.
3) You can make your attacks with one end of the Quarterstaff or both ends of the Quarterstaff, however you see fit. Flurry, unlike TWF, does not actually require two weapons, so there's not obligation to use both ends of the Quarterstaff.
I'm less sure about what bonus Power Attack would add, but I believe it will still do 1.5x to bonus, since a Quarterstaff is a Two-Handed Weapon. You don't get 1.5x STR damage, because flurry tells you that you only get 1x. But I don't think it changes things for Power Attack. I could be wrong about that, though.
Power attack cares about how the attack is wielded.
You can use power attack with Flurry of Blows:
1) If using unarmed strikes (light weapon) it deal +2 damage per -1 to attack. Same while using a 1 handed weapon in 1 hand.
2) If using a two-handed weapon or wielding a 1 handed weapon in 2 hands you deal +3 damage per -1 attack.
3) Power attack damage is reduced for weapons used in an off-hand (not light weapons specifically, but often the case and often associated as being because of light weapons due to the penalties from TWF).
So assuming you wield a quarterstaff in the normal way (with two hands) you deal full (1x) strength damage (because of the rules of flurry) and get +3 damage per -1 to attack for Power Attack.
Instead of a staff, use a heavy shield or heavy spiked shield. It's 1 handed and a close weapon so you can 2 hand it and flurry. Get the improved shield bash feat and you get AC and a 2 handed flurry. Even without imp shield bash, it's better than a staff since you have a free hand while still threatening and you get AC bonus waking around.
Instead of a staff, use a heavy shield or heavy spiked shield. It's 1 handed and a close weapon so you can 2 hand it and flurry. Get the improved shield bash feat and you get AC and a 2 handed flurry. Even without imp shield bash, it's better than a staff since you have a free hand while still threatening and you get AC bonus waking around.
Note, however, that you'll need to take Shield Proficiency first, as brawlers don't start with it. (The shield champion archetype does, but loses the close weapons proficiency.)
It's questionable whether shield (armor proficiency) also grants shield (weapon proficiency).
I'm not sure whether that issue was ever officially resolved.
Brawlers have both types of profiency now. Shields are in the close weapons group.
Ah, if shields are in the Close Weapons group then that would absolutely do it.
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Yeah, for history's sake, the brawler always had the weapon proficiency through the close weapons group, but didn't have the armor proficiency before the errata.
And I might be misremembering, but I think the shield champion archetype took away the close group, but gave the armor shield proficiency, so that effectively removed their weapon proficiency with shields.
There were a lot of odd issues in the ACG, though. And many things still need errata. For instance, we don't actually have workable rules for how the Brawler's Flurry works. We know they count as having two weapon fighting, but how do you calculate the penalties when they don't actually have to use an offhand for their two weapon fighting? If they flurry with a two-handed weapon, does that make the two-handed weapon the off-hand weapon? Or if the two weapon penalties are never mentioned, do they even take them at all? The general consensus seems to be to do it as two weapon fighting, with the off-hand always counting as light, but we don't have any actual rule suggesting we do that.
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Yeah, for history's sake, the brawler always had the weapon proficiency through the close weapons group, but didn't have the armor proficiency before the errata.
And I might be misremembering, but I think the shield champion archetype took away the close group, but gave the armor shield proficiency, so that effectively removed their weapon proficiency with shields.
There were a lot of odd issues in the ACG, though. And many things still need errata. For instance, we don't actually have workable rules for how the Brawler's Flurry works. We know they count as having two weapon fighting, but how do you calculate the penalties when they don't actually have to use an offhand for their two weapon fighting? If they flurry with a two-handed weapon, does that make the two-handed weapon the off-hand weapon? Or if the two weapon penalties are never mentioned, do they even take them at all? The general consensus seems to be to do it as two weapon fighting, with the off-hand always counting as light, but we don't have any actual rule suggesting we do that.
The class does say that both attacks use full str modification and with two weapon fighting both attacks are at -2. What additional unknown is there for their Flurry?
The class does say that both attacks use full str modification and with two weapon fighting both attacks are at -2. What additional unknown is there for their Flurry?
The penalties for two weapon fighting are variable depending on the offhand weapon. If the offhand isn't light, the penalties are -4/-4, if you include the feat. But in this case, the offhand doesn't even necessarily exist, so you aren't exactly using two weapon fighting.
To get nit-picky about it, you aren't even described as using two-weapon fighting while using Brawler's fury. They just say that you have the feat while doing it and then don't actually mention you are using it to attack. Though at least there, the intent is clear, even if the text doesn't outright say it. The penalties however, are very unclear if you aren't using exclusively light weapons.
Thanks guys.
I never thought to use shield as weapon just because I prefer unarmed strike for fighting, but actually seems very interesting build, I guess I will give him a chance. XD
For the penalties of two-weapon fighting I was thinking about the rules for the double weapons: if you use a double weapon, one side is considered primary hand and other side is considered off-hand (always light one) so -2/-2. For the flurry it not clear at all, specially if I use a one-handed weapon with two hands, i suppose -2/-2 just because there is no off-hand at all so there is no difference for the type of weapon in that one..
Thanks guys.
I never thought to use shield as weapon just because I prefer unarmed strike for fighting, but actually seems very interesting build, I guess I will give him a chance. XD
For the penalties of two-weapon fighting I was thinking about the rules for the double weapons: if you use a double weapon, one side is considered primary hand and other side is considered off-hand (always light one) so -2/-2. For the flurry it not clear at all, specially if I use a one-handed weapon with two hands, i suppose -2/-2 just because there is no off-hand at all so there is no difference for the type of weapon in that one..
I'm sure it's -2/-2 as it seems clearly build off a monks flurry. Flurry works "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat", allows for two handed weapons and the chart shows the minuses are -2/-2 for that. I think it's a safe bet a brawler's flurry works the same.
If there is no offhand, and zero is less than light, it seems like -2/-2 is the choice that makes most sense with any flurry option. Power attack only references str multiples when discussing natural weapons. With manufactured, it only cares how the weapon is held.
This is how I understand using a 2h weapon with Brawlers Flurry:
1. Since there is no off hand your off hand can't be considered to have a one handed weapon in it, even if the character is holding a 2 hand weapon.
2. With double weapons a Brawler can use either side of the weapon during the attack. If you have one side enchanted with flaming and the other enchanted with Frost, you could use all attacks with the frost side of the weapon.
3. When flurrying with a weapon in 2 hands, power attack provides -1/+3 because power attack only cares that the weapon is held in 2 hands.
What reason did we not just give the brawler regular flurry again?
So they could pick up feats that require Two-Weapon fighting through Martial Flexibility.
Maybe, but that's pretty clunky. You only have the feats while making a full attack. You could maybe use the higher level swift action version during the flurry, but it's very awkward.
And then there's the problem with a lot of the requiring feats still requiring a high dex, which somewhat defeats the purpose of flurry skipping those prerequisites in my opinion.
Brawler is a troubled class, that almost immediately got overshadowed by the unchained monk. It's pretty sad.
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They clarified somewhere that Brawlers can take feats that require TWF even though they only count as having it in a flurry. They can only use those feats in conjunction with a flurry. So it’s legal to use Martial Flexibility to pick something like Two-Weapon Feint (or TW Rend or whatever) up as a move action and use it on subsequent rounds. I don’t have links, but I remember the discussion from the play test. Being able to meet the prereqs for feats through Martial Flexibilty was one of the main reasons the language about TWF was added.
I’m not saying it doesn’t need better language clarifying penalties, etc, but that was the reasoning behind it. The whole ACG has lots of issues with wording. Some of those were cleared up with the errata, but others weren’t.
As far as I can tell, Brawler does not remove the "off hand" description... you get two weapon fighting feat, and you can get an extra attack with an offhand weapon using the two weapon fighting rules.
The exceptions it makes are
1) All attacks deal 1x Str damage
2) Mainhand and Off-hand attacks can be the same weapon.So, if your using Brawlers Flurry using one twohanded weapon, you make your Mainhand attacks with that weapon, and an offhand attack with that weapon. It is not a light weapon (unless it is) so the penalty is -4.
Edit: After looking at the faq, a 2handed weapon takes up both your main and off hands as far as twf is concerned. Thats the reason they give for why you cannot twf with a 2 hander and armor spikes...
So if you BFlurry with a 2 hander, it has to be used for ALL attacks.
I don't think this is RAI. Nothing indicates that the flurry would incur additional penalties from 2handing a weapon because with regular two weapon fighting a weapon can't be taken into 2 hands. This is one of the major things that separates a flurry from a regular 2 weapon attack.
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I see our disconnect now. Using a light weapon doesn't reduce twf penalties. Instead, using a 1 hand weapon in your off hand increases penalties when two weapon fighting.
There is no rule in TWF for using a weapon 2handed at the same time. That is the province of flurry. Flurries generally don't have an offhand since you can make all attacks with your primary hand.
See Flurry FAQ.
If there is no offhand, there is no opportunity to incur the additional penalty from having a 1h or 2h weapon in that off hand while two weapon fighting as a flurry. Based on this, all Brawler FoB attacks should be -2.
toastedamphibian: A monks furry is stated "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). It HAS a listed modifier for what that means, -2 to all attacks. They may use "any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon" while doing so: that means light, one handed or two handed weapons get the listed -2 attacks.
Why would another feature that does nearly the same thing use a different minus? Both are based off of "the Two-Weapon Fighting feat" so a monk would/should have identical modifiers. If a brawler is forced to take a -4 for non-light weapons, so to should a monk.
IMO the only effective difference between monk/brawler flurries is that one lets you count as actually having the feat while the gives you free upgrades to the virtual feat. The base starting mechanics are identical otherwise.
It's perhaps worth noting as well that an alternative to two-handing a shield for Brawler's Flurry is to use a strong one-handed Monk weapon in one hand and a shield in the other. You need proficiency in a Monk sword, but save on Improved Shield Bash. You only get one-handed Power Attack, but get to use a weapon that has a decent critical hit chance - and once you can start stacking Critical Focus feats with Martial Versatility, flurry-crit-fishing gets interesting.
toastedamphibian: A monks furry is stated "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). It HAS a listed modifier for what that means, -2 to all attacks. They may use "any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon" while doing so: that means light, one handed or two handed weapons get the listed -2 attacks.
Why would another feature that does nearly the same thing use a different minus? Both are based off of "the Two-Weapon Fighting feat" so a monk would/should have identical modifiers. If a brawler is forced to take a -4 for non-light weapons, so to should a monk.
IMO the only effective difference between monk/brawler flurries is that one lets you count as actually having the feat while the gives you free upgrades to the virtual feat. The base starting mechanics are identical otherwise.
Looking at Monk's Flurry of Blows class feature, I also see nothing stating the penalty is always -2. Which leads me to believe that the table shown is only an example of a typical flurry would look like. Kind of like how the main unarmed strike table shows for medium characters and they give a table below for Small or Large.
So in my opinion, a monk would also take the same modifiers.
Looking at Monk's Flurry of Blows class feature, I also see nothing stating the penalty is always -2. Which leads me to believe that the table shown is only an example of a typical flurry would look like. Kind of like how the main unarmed strike table shows for medium characters and they give a table below for Small or Large.
So in my opinion, a monk would also take the same modifiers.
The listing for Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus is listed right on the abilities/level chart for the monk. It's as much of as example as: Base Attack Bonus, Fort Save, Ref Save, Will Save, AC bonus and Fast move.
If the chart gives me +10 move, is it a suggestion? My Fort Save? Not IMO. It lists what I actually get that level. The Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus shows it's full BAB with a -2 attacks with NO exception. For me, it's the exceptions that needs noting, NOT something stating that the chart is actually accurate. [see non-medium monk unarmed damage for what to do if chart might NOT be right for some reason]
On Unarmed damage, they give an exception for different size monks: A listed exception. There is no listed exception for weapon sizes in the class. As such, I'd expect the listings on the chart to be valid.
Except you need rules backing on what is behind that chart. And the rules backing behind the chart is "functions as Two-weapon Fighting". At no point does it state to treat the weapon or anything like that as a Light weapon for the purpose of penalties, which means there is no specific overriding general. So you'd use the normal penalties.
That chart, while nice and helpful for when you are using light weapons, doesn't say anywhere that it supersedes the general rule of "if not light, use the larger penalties". Only exception it calls out is treating it as if you had the feat.
The rules backing the Movement Speed is called Fast Movement and it specifically calls out what it does in the class feature with the same name. Just as how Flurry calls out that you ignore the BAB section of the chart and use your Monk level instead.
TrinitysEnd: All the rules you need are in the class: it tells you you can two weapon fight with a full BAB and GIVES you the modifiers you use. At NO point is there a need to mention weapons sizes: it gives you the modifiers for weapon usable in a flurry, -2. Just like fast move, flurry "specifically calls out what it does"
It allows you to use full BAB while two weapon fighting using the chart for the penalties for the attacks. Allowable weapons are any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon. What's left out?
You mentioned "the table shown is only an example": I'd ask why? Why isn't it a the "specific overriding general" you didn't see? I'd ask what other class chart just gives examples and not actual relevant numbers for the class? I see nothing that "specifically calls out" the flurry chart as an example or something to be ignored for the general rule [-4 for non-light in TWF].
So the questions are: Where is the specific overriding rule that overrides the general rule that monks take a -2 when flurrying? Where does it "specifically calls out" the table as an example you can freely ignore and is just meant to be a waste of space because it references NOTHING specific?
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The penalty is specified in the Flurry of Blows ability. It is set at -2 for Unarmed Strikes and monk weapons.
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.
When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability).
I stand corrected. The source (Archives of Nethys) I was using does not list that, but it does appear on the PRD.
This appears to be from an errata back in 2013 (Or older, I'm just looking at the newest version). So I apologize. The rules do specifically state the exception in the Monk Flurry of Blows.
However, Brawler does lack that wording and that chart, which leads me to believe that it does scale up.
Most Brawler's Flurry attacks involve no offhand weapon at all. Either this is equivalent to a light offhand, or Brawlers are pretty messed up.
The brawler flurry definitely needs errata. I think we can all guess how it’s supposed to work, but there isn’t rules text there to support any of the interpretations.
Melkiador: On one hand I can see an errata/FAQ to help people like TrinitysEnd, I'm hesitant to ask the Dev's for errata/FAQ after a series of them that have left me scratching my head.
BadBird: Agreed. It seems like a 'modernised' monks flurry so I would be surprised to see it work differently. I'd expect the ability to mention handedness to be mentioned in the ability if it mattered as it uses the proviso for full str for off hand/2 handed weapons like monk flurry.
TrinitysEnd: I agree that brawler isn't as explicit as the monk for it's TWF modifiers. With the class being from the APG, it's hard to say why [few things from it haven't seen errata of some kind]. I think the 2013 errata for the monk shows what the type of wording the flurry text was meant to mean and brawler uses almost identical text.
Being afraid of errata seems like a horrible reason to not ask for it. In the worst case, the brawler gets -4 penalties while flurrying a non-light weapon. In the best case, they take no penalties to attack while flurrying. And in the most likely case, it’s the way we all suspect it’s supposed to be anyway.
Being afraid of errata seems like a horrible reason to not ask for it.
I've played with multiple Dm's and have never seen any other ruling than -2 for flurries. For me an FAQ either does nothing or makes it worse: nothing is gained for me. In this situation, I'm happy with the status quo.
In the worst case, the brawler gets -4 penalties while flurrying a non-light weapon.
Yep.
In the best case, they take no penalties to attack while flurrying.
With the prevalence of overreacting "nuking from space" nerfs, this seems so unlikely that it might as well be a non-option: I can't see this ever being a possibility. How often do we see FAQ/errata that make options better?
I'll be honest. I'm scared of FAQ's anymore, because it seems that lately they've only removed things from the game I took as a given [ammo], made the game harder to play [search every 10' for traps] or uses unwritten rules ['hands']. I see a FAQ anymore and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to like it.
toastedamphibian: I don't see the same clarity you do. That arbitrary offhand is something that really doesn't exist in a flurry as you don't have an offhand [actual or hand of effort]. You're treated as if you had a second weapon but nothing else.
We plain don't have rules for 1 weapon two weapon fighting OTHER than monk's flurry. Then we have all weapon attacks in a brawlers flurry being treated as main hand weapons for damage, making it seem less and less like the typical TWFing.
Nothing says Brawlers do not have offhand.
It says they can use 1 weapon and damage is x1. That doesn't sound like an offhand to me. An offhand attack requires a second weapon and a hand of effort, something the brawler doesn't need. So you don't needing a physical offhand or 'a hand of effort'. There is literally nothing about a brawlers flurry that matches a traditional offhand.
Why do you keep adding rules that are not there?
I'm the one making rules? You are saying you KNOW what effort an offhand has when you only only have one weapon wielded: THAT sounds like adding to the rules... And I don't see the 'rules invention'. TWF says your main weapon does x1 damage, just like all the brawlers flurry attacks. That's not inventing rules, but reading them off the class and the section on TWF. Are you saying the main weapon in TWF doesn't do x1 damage?
Despite the recent fact that Gray and I have been disagreeing a lot, I do believe Gray is right. All attacks of the Brawler's Flurry are x1 and that they do not have an offhand in the conventional sense. As to how this interacts with Power Attack, I'm not sure, but I lean towards 2 dmg over the 1 dmg.
Note that the Brawler's Flurry text says "...whether the attacks are made with an offhand weapon OR a weapon wielded in both hands".
Also note that Brawler's Flurry never actually even says it grants an extra attack; the ACG was a mess.
The closest things to Brawler's Flurry making TWF attacks with one weapon is either regular Monk, which has a set -2 penalty, or using a double weapon, which counts it's 'offhand end' as a light weapon.
A weapon wielded in two hands deals more Power Attack damage.
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the ACG was a mess.
I think we can ALL agree with this. At this point, it's really just everyone's best guesses as to how it actually works as the class is missing the explicit language to prove anyones point.
For me, a brawler's flurry seems to have clear parallels to a monks flurry and lacks anything related to traditional off hand weapon uses. For me, that means I go with -2 to attack. Can't prove it though.
As to power attack... That's a tough one. I'd have to go with the "Weapons, Two-Handed in One Hand" FAQ: "If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on." Power attack cares about how many hands are physically on the weapon so I'd have to say a two handed weapon used with power attack and brawlers flurry get the 1-3 modifiers.
the ACG was a mess.I think we can ALL agree with this. At this point, it's really just everyone's best guesses as to how it actually works as the class is missing the explicit language to prove anyones point.
For me, a brawler's flurry seems to have clear parallels to a monks flurry and lacks anything related to traditional off hand weapon uses. For me, that means I go with -2 to attack. Can't prove it though.
As to power attack... That's a tough one. I'd have to go with the "Weapons, Two-Handed in One Hand" FAQ: "If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on." Power attack cares about how many hands are physically on the weapon so I'd have to say a two handed weapon used with power attack and brawlers flurry get the 1-3 modifiers.
This is the way I always read it and is likely RAI.
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Until a character is wielding two weapons, there is no such thing as an 'offhand weapon'.
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Until a character is wielding two weapons, there is no such thing as an 'offhand weapon'.
Actually its more a case of until a character makes the extra attack granted by using the two weapon fighting rules or uses another feat/ability/spell/class feature that references a off-hand. There is no off-hand.
Until a character is wielding two weapons, there is no such thing as an 'offhand weapon'.Actually its more a case of until a character makes the extra attack granted by using the two weapon fighting rules or uses another feat/ability/spell/class feature that references a off-hand. There is no off-hand.
Are you picking a fight with me over the definition of 'wielding'? *Rolls up sleeves and takes off glasses*