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Since Starfinder came out, the class I've been tinkering with the most is the envoy. I'm not sure why - I suppose that its tendency to accrue a broad library of abilities instead of just improving the same thing over and over is attractive to me. Anyhow, I've been making notes on the class for a while, and figured I just just go ahead, clean it up, and put it out there as a class guide:
Let me know what you think! I would appriciate any (constructive) criticism you've got, as well as any insights to the class I may have missed, or sections I should have included.
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for that chart on page 9, you are my hero.
very helpful overall too!
i'll post again after a more thorough read, if i have anything useful to say.
for that chart on page 9, you are my hero.
very helpful overall too!
Thanks! I'm very much a visual learner, so I'm always trying to plot things out pictorially.
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Since Starfinder came out, the class I've been tinkering with the most is the envoy. I'm not sure why - I suppose that its tendency to accrue a broad library of abilities instead of just improving the same thing over and over is attractive to me. Anyhow, I've been making notes on the class for a while, and figured I just just go ahead, clean it up, and put it out there as a class guide:
Let me know what you think! I would appriciate any (constructive) criticism you've got, as well as any insights to the class I may have missed, or sections I should have included.
Good stuff. I really enjoyed it. I may quibble about a few ratings, but this helps with a lot of stuff.
A couple of points/suggestions
In the race section, I would add the wrikreechee from the Alien Archive, since they will be a playable race after 6 games in SFS.
Would Engineering Adept work in Starship Combat? Being able to patch twice as fast make this more valuable?
Thanks for doing this.
In the race section, I would add the wrikreechee from the Alien Archive, since they will be a playable race after 6 games in SFS.
I straight-up missed 'em. Thanks for pointing that out.
Would Engineering Adept work in Starship Combat? Being able to patch twice as fast make this more valuable?
I do not believe that Engineering Adept would apply to starships. It specifically calls out Engineering checks to disable or repair items, not the Patch crew action.
Kinda interesting that inspiring boost is rated so low. It is the only thing I have seen that heals stamina damage other than burning resolve and you can use it to heal so much damage that makes mystics drool. Used well you may be able to avoid even having HP damage in fights which keeps the party at full or near full power for a long time.
During the course of an adventuring day this thing can pump out a LOT of healing and saving your team a lot of resolve that they can then use to boost their own powers more aggressively than they could otherwise.
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If this guide doesn't teach me how to turn my envoy into a general, I will be quite cross.
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Nice guide.
And let me add my voice to those who appreciate the charts — very helpful for character planning!
(Improved) Hurry, I would rate blue myself. In the action economy of Starfinder this ability can mean the difference between a full attack or not. Or a different critical ability for your friend to use - or not. (If it would still be the Pathfinder action economy, I'd agree on it being green.)
I thought (Improved) Hurry was going to be green when analyzing the math on my own early on, and green is a good rating, but in actual play, it was definitely blue for reasons similar to the examples you give. The envoy was consistently getting surprisingly amazing benefits by trading her own standard for an ally's move action in clever and targeted ways. It might vary if your envoy is less creative or good at quickly coming up with combos with the group (ours first asked everyone if they thought they had a big use for a move coming up and then spent the round looking for other possibilities as well).
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I'll join the chorus who think that inspiring boost is at least a green (personally I'd rate it blue). You basically trade your action to more or less negate one of the enemies hits. That is a REALLY good use of action economy when the fight is a bunch of PCs against one or two NPCs.
Keeping the big hitter on your side up for another round is very, very often going to be a much bigger accomplishment than doing your middling damage (and you'll only be doing middling damage even if you're building for damage).
For what its worth, the above is my experience in playing an Envoy through the first book and 1/3 of Dead suns and running several in multiple SFS scenarios.
for that chart on page 9, you are my hero.
very helpful overall too!
i'll post again after a more thorough read, if i have anything useful to say.
Just wanted to second this, the charts are incredibly helpful! :)
Inspiring Boost could also be keeping the healing mystic up, which in my experience from Pathfinder can be essential, because that character can then keep the rest up.
Would be surprised when that logic works otherwise here.
Thanks for all the feedback, peeps! I'll be the first to admit I'm primarily theorycrafting here, as the bulk of my experience with the class is vicariously through one of my PCs throughout the first book of the Dead Suns AP (and she hasn't taken the inspiring boost improvisation).
The reason I wasn't initially a fan of inspiring boost was that it looks extremely restrictive on paper. You must use it the turn after your ally has taken damage (which can get in the way of other low-level improvisations like clever feint or dispiriting taunt, which extend over two rounds), and you can only use it once per encounter at best, as you must wait for your ally to regain Stamina Points by spending a Resolve Point. Additionally, it's not unusual for enemies to hit harder than inspiring boost can heal, and in my limited Starfinder experience, offense is the best defense.
Still, it has value in being the only ability in the whole book that allows characters to regain Stamina without spending Resolve. I'll probably kick up the ratings for inspiring boost and quick inspiring boost by one level when I have time to go through and make edits.
Playing a level 4 support Envoy in a melee-focused party w/ no Mystic.
I'm not sure we've ever used a healing serum and can recall only three times we've taken h.p. (once in 1st encounter of AP (with PC who didn't buy armor), vs. end boss of AP #1, and once last session for 1 h.p. partly because I was out of range).
Which is to say, Inspiring Boost can be a game changer.
The status of IB depends on what type of Envoy you're building. An 18 Cha support PC would be defined by Inspiring Boost (as mine is). They will often cure more than a Mystic because Mystics only do h.p., even if the Mystic potentially could cure more.
Ranged healing once per ally & that's recharged by a short rest?
(And for Stamina in-combat)
Yes, please.
Counterpoints
-At 4th, IB is of course losing some oomph. I wish the 15th level boost was sooner (to keep power parity) or there were a Greater IB to take. At 6th, we'll see if it's worth spending Resolve to boost it, but given how much Resolve I'll have (11 w/ feat & +4 Item), at least for tough battles it should be worth it.
-Quickened IB seemed great, but I shall avoid it because I have nearly as much use for move actions as I do for standards so it's not worth taking, especially to heal less stamina. So yeah, IB doesn't unlock anything better for now. (ETA: And while it seems worthwhile for an offensive envoy to use, it's not worth 2 Improvs and using one's move action at the loss of, for example, the +2 Morale attack bonus for everyone.)
-Support isn't necessarily the best Envoy focus. Envoys can potentially get a great attack bonus (and usually share it!), but that's a different build. With SFS or otherwise haphazard teams of PCs, I would focus more on being independently strong, which would shift toward Improvisations which boosted w/o losing my standard. And I would shift away from Cha reliant Improvs, as I'd have Dex highest (partly because I may also need to become a gunner or pilot if others are weak there).
-And if truly battle-focused & not the party face, I would be heavily attracted to the 1 level Soldier dip which would weaken IB even more plus allow me to ignore Cha, and most Cha Improvs like IB. And I think this kind of Envoy isn't just viable, but worthwhile. I wouldn't necessarily say I fill the Envoy role (or make great use of Expertise), but I'd make great use of those combat improvs to boost myself.
Cheers.
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So to clarify my last post, Jimbles, after reading your guide...
You have colors tied mostly to the breadth of builds that an ability works for. This makes an average ability that's decent for all builds look better than a game-changer does if that game-changer works with fewer builds. Awkward.
Maybe just giving the strength of a choice for "standard Envoy" might work better with other strength levels noted under the specifics.
Also, I think you're overrating Int, Jimbles.
If a PC is going with Int skills, then it's decent, but as you've noted, other classes usually have those covered (and better).
If an Envoy is not focusing on Int skills, it's better spent on more Dex or Cha. For such a PC, eight skill points maxes out all the best class skills, so arguably an Envoy gets less out of Int (because the points go to lesser skills) than most other classes.
So a Face doesn't need it, nor does a combat Envoy. Only the Skill Monkeys do. Heck, I'd rather have Str for the Heavy Armor (and possibly Heavy Weapons) unless I had Dex 18.
I think this Int-overemphasis has led to skewed evaluations of the races, with much praise for races with Int. Also note, bonuses to a stat you want mean less now in SF. The best are penalties to a stat you don't want, and also to avoid bonuses to a stat you don't want.
-You missed the Shirren bonuses to Diplomacy (!) & Culture.
-I do not think Humans are blue because they do nothing to raise an Envoy above normal (unless the build needs that early feat or expects to be skill starved). Vanilla.
-A Vesk has much to offer a melee Envoy (though I agree that Envoys are poor at melee). Ditto for Dwarfs.
-I don't think Themeless deserves blue, as if one of the best!
-Your Improv chart is cool, especially since it points out to the developers how much Envoys need better high level Improvs!
-"Don't Quit" is a must-have for a support Envoy (and at 12th is arguably a must-have for all Envoys!), but once again, your colors are focused more on breadth of worth than depth of worth.
-I could quibble over minor differences, but agree with most others. I agree with your blue choices, with regard to most Envoys that want to be pseudo-Soldiers packing decent guns (and which anybody needing a guide would and likely should gear to be). But note that bias somewhere, please. Even my uber-support PC will be picking those blues, but needs some others a bit more to work.
-I will mention I think "Hurry" is overrated if you're not focused on support. Nice to have that option at times, but too many other Improvs outshine it, especially if Haste will be commonplace. (My opinion has fluctuated on this, I admit.)
-Your skills tied to Improvs/Expertise chart is great.
-I have many issues with your color choices though, especially given how few an Envoy gets (and so likely will be using them on Face abilities). Some seem a matter of campaign style, but many boggle me.
Feats:
Much disagreement here too, but most strongly:
-The psychic feats are horrible.
-I cannot fathom Improved Initiative being blue, changing only one roll per battle. Or even green, actually. Note: SF battles are longer than PF battles, and involve more positioning.
-Skill Synergy can unlock some rarer, crucial skills if your party lacks them (i.e. Life Science or Mysticism) for a nice and needed +3 class-skill bonus. It and Skill Focus give insight bonuses that work fine as long as they're not in those few skills with Expertise.
-Weapon Focus is a must have for combat Envoys, and at 9th for all Envoys packing longarms+.
Awkwardly you support Heavy Weapon Proficiency, but not the initial strength to actually take it, and assume the Envoy has 15+ Int (?) for Technomantic Dabbler (which I agree is great).
Thank you for your service to the community! It's very nice of you to make this guide for us.
Cheers.
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Great Guide! +1 to the support for the chart.
I'd suggest that skill focus/synergy is orange for clever feint builds though, because of the cunning liar talent. It isn't exactly good because you won't need the reroll against level appropriate monsters about 1/2 the time, but having a bonus there for when you do need it (or at when you roll poorly) could be worth a feat to save some resolve. Similar statements can be made about other talents which forfeit use of your expertise die, and for skills which you don't take as expertise skills.
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Thanks a lot for this guide!
(I am the main SFS DM for now in our part of the woods, so I have 8 characters to use up the DM credit, but the one I actually am playing turns out to be the Envoy, which is not what I would have thought)
So, at first glance I add my 2 cents that Inspiring Boost is very useful, at least in the games I've played at low level.
Since Get 'Em is a Move, I have used both in the same round several times (I am lvl 2).
And, when you are playing with 6 PCs, I find that at least 2, often 3, get hit in a fight, so that's 2 or 3 healing moves done per fight.
In general, when I heal the SP of someone, it lets them take 1 more hit in the fight and thus not go down on the 2nd or 3rd.
But, the main point I have is that I believe you are not accurately describing when to use it, let us see.
You wrote:
Otherwise, the fact that you must act the turn after they take damage
I feel that is not correct as I read the text from the CRB is:
As a standard action, you can signal an ally within 30 feet who has taken damage from any attack made by a significant enemy (see page 242) at any point after your last turn ended.
After "your" last turn ended, not his or hers.
Bobby the Bruiser is hit on the head by Milly the Monster, and loses xSP.
When Anna's turn comes (her next Initi', or taking her Delay) she can use Inspiring Boost.
If she does not use Inspiring Boost to heal Bobby then but does something else, she can no longer do it on her next turn, since Bobby will have taken the damage at a point before her last turn.
So...?
I thought (Improved) Hurry was going to be green when analyzing the math on my own early on, and green is a good rating, but in actual play, it was definitely blue for reasons similar to the examples you give. The envoy was consistently getting surprisingly amazing benefits by trading her own standard for an ally's move action in clever and targeted ways. It might vary if your envoy is less creative or good at quickly coming up with combos with the group (ours first asked everyone if they thought they had a big use for a move coming up and then spent the round looking for other possibilities as well).(Improved) Hurry, I would rate blue myself. In the action economy of Starfinder this ability can mean the difference between a full attack or not. Or a different critical ability for your friend to use - or not. (If it would still be the Pathfinder action economy, I'd agree on it being green.)
This is great to hear. I really like the concept of (Improved) Hurry, but I was concerned about its efficacy. I'll take another look at it and I might adjust the rating.
Tip: for the Improvisation chart, maybe it's also nice to show here what improvs get a free "upgrade" at a certain level?
I agree, it would improve the chart, but I haven't yet come upon a natural and efficient way to draw it in. The chart is already a touch eye-searing and busy.
You have colors tied mostly to the breadth of builds that an ability works for. This makes an average ability that's decent for all builds look better than a game-changer does if that game-changer works with fewer builds. Awkward.
Maybe just giving the strength of a choice for "standard Envoy" might work better with other strength levels noted under the specifics.
Agreed. As I've noted under "Party Roles & Character Concepts", I feel that the nature of the class leads less to "pick a build and run with it" and more to "focus on one aspect and dabble in many others". I've attempted to structure my advice like you've suggested, where I rate an option for a "generic envoy", and then note in my comments if it happens to be more useful for a particular focus.
Also, I think you're overrating Int, Jimbles.
If a PC is going with Int skills, then it's decent, but as you've noted, other classes usually have those covered (and better).
If an Envoy is not focusing on Int skills, it's better spent on more Dex or Cha. For such a PC, eight skill points maxes out all the best class skills, so arguably an Envoy gets less out of Int (because the points go to lesser skills) than most other classes.
So a Face doesn't need it, nor does a combat Envoy. Only the Skill Monkeys do. Heck, I'd rather have Str for the Heavy Armor (and possibly Heavy Weapons) unless I had Dex 18.I think this Int-overemphasis has led to skewed evaluations of the races, with much praise for races with Int.
This is a really good point. I did come into this with the base assumption "Envoys are the go-to for skills, and you need Int to be great at skills", which is true, but only up to a point. After some thought, Str is probably as valuable of a tertiary ability as Int is.
Related question for the class: is Wis as valuable a tertiary ability (assuming you grab the Priest theme and Connection Inkling)? It doesn't have as many skills (and those skills are arguably more niche), but grabbing some mystic spells could be useful and interesting.
Also note, bonuses to a stat you want mean less now in SF. The best are penalties to a stat you don't want, and also to avoid bonuses to a stat you don't want.
Again, agreed, although it doesn't come through terribly well in my writing, as I reread the Races section. Racial abilities often correlate with ability scores, however, so a race with a Cha or Dex bonus frequently has a racial ability helpful to characters looking for a high Cha or Dex.
You missed the Shirren bonuses to Diplomacy (!) & Culture.
I should have mentioned them, yeah. I still think Shirren are only useful for a small subset of envoy builds since Con & Wis are not terribly helpful. The Culture bonus is good, but the Diplomacy bonus doesn't make up for the Cha penalty, as a typical envoy will be using other Cha-based skills more frequently.
I do not think Humans are blue because they do nothing to raise an Envoy above normal (unless the build needs that early feat or expects to be skill starved).
This may be a holdover in my mind from Pathfinder. It's true that both feats and skill ranks are less valuable in Starfinder (especially to envoys).
A Vesk has much to offer a melee Envoy (though I agree that Envoys are poor at melee). Ditto for Dwarfs.
Vesk and dwarves make great melee fighters, but they both have unfortunate racial penalties and absolutely nothing to offer the class. Can you build a decent melee (insert class here) out of them? Absolutely. As I mentioned, no race is a gamebreaker for any class, but there are better choices for melee envoys (like Kasatha, for example).
I don't think Themeless deserves blue, as if one of the best!
I like themeless because it's useful to any build. Every other theme has fairly niche benefits, but themeless gives consistent (if smaller) benefits at high levels. This consistency is why I rated it so highly.
Your Improv chart is cool, especially since it points out to the developers how much Envoys need better high level Improvs!
Thanks! I am surprised by how limited the 8th-level improvisations are. I'm looking forward to seeing if we get any new improvisations in March with the Pact Worlds hardcover.
"Don't Quit" is a must-have for a support Envoy (and at 12th is arguably a must-have for all Envoys!), but once again, your colors are focused more on breadth of worth than depth...
I agree that it's a solid option by 12th level, and a good option (not necessarily a must-have) for pure-support types at lower levels, and I stand by my opinion as stated.
Thanks, Castilliano, for taking the time to really dig into it. I appriciate your comments.
Jimbles,
Re: Envoy roles
Not sure I agree that Envoys can dabble freely with no drawbacks. Can't quite figure out how to phrase this.
I'm looking at a typical Envoy as a face PC who intends to shoot as much as possible, likely with a longarm, using the Improvs to boost offense (and by happenstance their allies). Go far enough into combat and they may as well dip Soldier 1, which could alter stat choices quite a bit and in turn, Improv & Expertise choices.
A pure support Envoy though would boost both offense (same Improvs) and recovery (Inspiring Boost & Don't Quit), their "offense" being keeping the dedicated combat PCs functioning.
The 1st needs some feat investment & a high Dex, and if they're as good in combat as their allies, there's little need to sacrifice their own turns to give an equal PC a turn. The 2nd only needs Cha, and freely sacrifices their actions for others (i.e. Hurry), so they have the feats free to take Connection Inkling (et al).
Re: The Shirren
I do not think the penalty to Cha matters much, as you could buy your way out of the hole and have an awesome Diplomacy. The Lashunta are a better way to do this though because Shirren lock +2 into Con & Wis, which costs too much for typical Envoys.
Re: Vesk, Dwarves, & Kasatha
I think Vesks (x1.5 Weapon Specialization to claws, +1 AC) and Dwarves (free proficiency & specialization + saves) make for a better melee Envoy than a Kasatha (4 arms?). And I don't think any of these races have enough to add to typical Envoys. This would just be a footnote, even if some stay red.
Re: "Don't Quit"
A 12th level Envoy without this is doing a huge disservice to their party. Tons of conditions that can be auto-removed, at range, for only a Resolve? That's a lot of fixing power!
Maybe two colors for Improvs? One for initial worth, which I admit for a typical Envoy is low for this one, and another color for when it hits a pinnacle.
Re: Wisdom as tertiary stat
I'm a bit reluctant to call any stat tertiary because Dex & Cha are so important. At least not in a guide where a reader might feel obligated to toss a couple of points in it. (At creation, that is. Later, it's forced by the nature of the stat bumps, and generally worthwhile.)
That said I think arguments could be made for early Str, Int, & Wis, but that would depend on intent. Since some races force a minimum in one of those, it might be nice to say that shouldn't be a deterrent if it aligns with a secondary role.
Str: Pick up the heavy weapons & armor for thuggery
Int: Boost all those good Int skills, both for knowledge & tech/med.
Wis: Perception & Sense Motive are great, plus yes, Connection Inkling is a solid feat, especially if the party needs those cantrips.
Con: Wait...what? If installing bioaugmentation with Con-based saves, one could make this argument. For all other Envoys, no initial investment.
Which brings up the question of later stat bumps (5, 10, etc).
It's one thing to say a stat is worth investing in at creation, and another to say it's worth bumping later when the points need to be spread out. So even though I advise toward Dex, Cha, & maybe a racial stat as tertiary, when bumping at 5th the game changes.
A Str of 11 is minor at creation, and makes a good platform to go to Str 13 at 5th (which is when somebody who got Longarm Prof. & Specialization might first be able to pick up Heavy Armor or Heavy Weapons).
And if a race forces Int or Wis of 12, then a +1 to 13 means the PC can get to 15 at 5th for Technomantic Dabbler or Connection Inkling.
(And that last odd number at PC creation has little worth otherwise.)
Apologies, as I know those later bumps open up a can of space worms. :)
Excellent looking guide, thanks for the work you've put in to it.
I would like to echo what Castilliano says about the Cha penalty on Shirrens not mattering too much and the same for other races unless you are rolling ability scores.
For example, creating an Android using the default ability score method, spending points is at the end of the process and so there is nothing to prevent you having whatever score you want for Charisma (including 18). Yes it will take some more points, but as any points from your allocated 10 that you haven't spent on Charisma are probably going into Dex and Int anyway at level 1 (where Android bonuses are) the impact of the -2 is negligable at level 1 and completely unimportant by the time you hit level 5 and start gettign all the stat boosts (There is no stat distribution of Dex, Int and Cha that you cannot have as an Android that you would be able to have as a Human for example).
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Raising this old thread from the dead just to mention that the guide has just been updated to include all published content through the Character Operations Manual, which contains tons of envoy-related goodies.
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Raising this old thread from the dead just to mention that the guide has just been updated to include all published content through the Character Operations Manual, which contains tons of envoy-related goodies.
How would you build a decent level 1 polymorphic disguise envoy? I’m having trouble with it, combat wise I mean. Social stuff is easy enough