Rule you never see used though it is RAW


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I have a Discworld day I am going to tomorrow.
One of my friends built a full on baluggage costume.

SHAME! SHAME ON ME


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Luggage?

Edit: lol but that is cool though!


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Vidmaster7 wrote:

Luggage?

Edit: lol but that is cool though!

Derail ahead:

Yes, she is very cool.
I am trying to make an igor costume.


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J4RH34D wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:

Luggage?

Edit: lol but that is cool though!

Derail ahead:

Yes, she is very cool.
I am trying to make an igor costume.

Darn your eyes!


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necromental wrote:
We kneeled a lot before it was faqerrataed and was a free action. Now that is a move it's not worth it.

Source? I can only see threads asking the question and references to a 3.5 ruling.


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Lady-J wrote:
by raw rogues can time no one uses those rules tho

I'm not sure what this sentence means. Could you expand on that a bit to make it clearer?


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avr wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
by raw rogues can time no one uses those rules tho
I'm not sure what this sentence means. Could you expand on that a bit to make it clearer?

falling is a free action, rogues get a talent that lets them stand up as a free action, repeat multiple times until travailing faster then speed of light, go back in time


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also 200 peasants and a log can kill any structure ever


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Ah things like the peasant rail gun and me. Things your DM should say no too but technically works by raw (3.5 raw for my 2 examples.)


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If you want to stretch physics into pathfinder, the rogue would destroy himself due to accelerational forces far before he reached the speed of light.
46.2 G’s is the maximum a human has been shown to withstand from a quick google.
The fact that the rogue is falling from upright to prone multiple times in 6 second, he has two stages of zero motion in his oscilatory movement.
Meaning he is accelerating and decelerating at each point.
If he were to even approach the speed of light, only once, over 6 seconds, his acceleration would be: 299 792 458 m/s / 6s = 49 965 409 m/s^2.
This is 5095053G
That is 110282.5 times more gforce than the human body has been shown to be able to survive.

What is the fastest he could theoretically go?
46.2g = 453.06723 m/s^2
453.06723 m/s^2 * 6s = 2718.40338 m/s

This is mach 7.925374285714.
Nearly mach 8
The Apollo module reached 24,791 miles per hour upon re entry.
that is 11082,569m/s.
Our rogue is going about 1/4 the speed of something falling from space.

Simply due to air friction he would probably cook himself alive.

SCIENCE


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
graystone wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
What you do is get a animated magic chest with little wooden legs trained to follow you around. also make it immune to magic.

They make pack yaks for a reason. 24gp for a large 27str quadruped for 1038 lbs. light load, meaning a Yak can carry a ANOTHER yak and still have 38 pounds it can carry without penalties.

And if it happens to die that's 1000 lbs of tasty, tasty yak. ;)

Sleeves of Many Garments: While I do like the item, I'm still disappointed there isn't any guidance of bonuses for visual outfits. For instance, it's up to the DM if my illusionary outfit [like Royal outfit] and/or the underlying outfit [like a Shinobi shozoku] do anything. I'm at enough different 'tables' that it's a bit of a crapshoot how well it actually works.

But the yak can't eat a thief and save it inside his inter-dimensional space for later!

It's got trample, low light vision, scent, a 2d6+12 gore and power attack... I'm ok with my thief a little mangled. ;)


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That rogues a wimp.


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Alright I'm sold on the Yak.


graystone wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
graystone wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
What you do is get a animated magic chest with little wooden legs trained to follow you around. also make it immune to magic.

They make pack yaks for a reason. 24gp for a large 27str quadruped for 1038 lbs. light load, meaning a Yak can carry a ANOTHER yak and still have 38 pounds it can carry without penalties.

And if it happens to die that's 1000 lbs of tasty, tasty yak. ;)

Sleeves of Many Garments: While I do like the item, I'm still disappointed there isn't any guidance of bonuses for visual outfits. For instance, it's up to the DM if my illusionary outfit [like Royal outfit] and/or the underlying outfit [like a Shinobi shozoku] do anything. I'm at enough different 'tables' that it's a bit of a crapshoot how well it actually works.

But the yak can't eat a thief and save it inside his inter-dimensional space for later!
It's got trample, low light vision, scent, a 2d6+12 gore and power attack... I'm ok with my thief a little mangled. ;)

but mimics are aberrations so you can modify them with things like fast healing, deadlyer attacks, immunities to damage types and what not


J4RH34D wrote:

If you want to stretch physics into pathfinder, the rogue would destroy himself due to accelerational forces far before he reached the speed of light.

46.2 G’s is the maximum a human has been shown to withstand from a quick google.
The fact that the rogue is falling from upright to prone multiple times in 6 second, he has two stages of zero motion in his oscilatory movement.
Meaning he is accelerating and decelerating at each point.
If he were to even approach the speed of light, only once, over 6 seconds, his acceleration would be: 299 792 458 m/s / 6s = 49 965 409 m/s^2.
This is 5095053G
That is 110282.5 times more gforce than the human body has been shown to be able to survive.

What is the fastest he could theoretically go?
46.2g = 453.06723 m/s^2
453.06723 m/s^2 * 6s = 2718.40338 m/s

This is mach 7.925374285714.
Nearly mach 8
The Apollo module reached 24,791 miles per hour upon re entry.
that is 11082,569m/s.
Our rogue is going about 1/4 the speed of something falling from space.

Simply due to air friction he would probably cook himself alive.

SCIENCE

your assuming the rogue is human, there are plenty of races far more durable then humans in pathfinder also if they find a way to get regeneration so long as its not cut off by fire no matter how much damage they take it wont kill them


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Alright I'm sold on the Yak.

Now add a cart or light wagon and you can travel in style. And if you really want to have fun, shot enemies with pheromone arrows so the yak gets a +2 hit for 1 hour.


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Lady-J wrote:
J4RH34D wrote:

If you want to stretch physics into pathfinder, the rogue would destroy himself due to accelerational forces far before he reached the speed of light.

46.2 G’s is the maximum a human has been shown to withstand from a quick google.
The fact that the rogue is falling from upright to prone multiple times in 6 second, he has two stages of zero motion in his oscilatory movement.
Meaning he is accelerating and decelerating at each point.
If he were to even approach the speed of light, only once, over 6 seconds, his acceleration would be: 299 792 458 m/s / 6s = 49 965 409 m/s^2.
This is 5095053G
That is 110282.5 times more gforce than the human body has been shown to be able to survive.

What is the fastest he could theoretically go?
46.2g = 453.06723 m/s^2
453.06723 m/s^2 * 6s = 2718.40338 m/s

This is mach 7.925374285714.
Nearly mach 8
The Apollo module reached 24,791 miles per hour upon re entry.
that is 11082,569m/s.
Our rogue is going about 1/4 the speed of something falling from space.

Simply due to air friction he would probably cook himself alive.

SCIENCE

your assuming the rogue is human, there are plenty of races far more durable then humans in pathfinder also if they find a way to get regeneration so long as its not cut off by fire no matter how much damage they take it wont kill them

No, but it may disable them.

Back in D&D I made a halfling warblade boomerang-thrower who I calculated was breaking the speed of sound with his boomerangs. No free action abuse involved.


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It won't kill them but it will knock them so far into the negatives it will take them damn near close enough to eternity for them to regen.

Did we just find a new way to kill the terrasque by picking it up and putting it down very very quickly.

Another fun bit of maths.
Let us look at the kinetic energy required to stand up at that speed.
To simplify we will just use the mass of 1kg for the head section of our rogue.
It proves the point I am trying to make.

Ke = 1/2 * m * v^2
Ke = 0.5 * 1kg * 2718.40338^2 = 3694858.4 J
= 3.69 MJ
This is 883 Kilo Calories
Sesame Butter (Tahini) has 595 calories per 100 gram serving
We would need to eat 148 kg of sesame butter to get the calories to do this even once.

Converting that much energy from potential chemical to kinetic has loss, that lost energy (heat) would boil you from the inside.

SCIENCE


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Hugo Rune wrote:
It's just a matter of time, energy and effort. Smashing through the wall in one or two rounds and then walking through the new archway, which some people think is possible with an adamantine weapon is absurd. That's because the rubble which is created has to be moved out the way and it has to be done in a fashion that doesn't cause the wielder damage. In your own example, you have a 15 foot cone of rock (about 2500 lbs) that previously occupied the square directly in front of the pickaxe wielder and now occupies the wielder's square and two others behind the wielder. If that happened in one round, then you are probably looking at taking damage roughly equivalent to being trampled by a bison. If the miner took more time then no they wouldn't take damage but they would be moved further away from the face by the expanding pile of rubble which would then need clearing. Rock is heavy so the people (i.e. other party members, who may not be strong) clearing the rock may not be able to carry large pieces, especially whilst wearing armour and carrying weapons. This leads to a scenario where the party are making a lot of noise for many rounds, whilst potentially unarmed and unarmoured and making the terrain around themselves difficult. The root of the problem being people forget that excavating through a wall creates rubble, which isn't disintegrated by adamantine weapons.

I can see the reason there. I was just trying to make sure that it was clear that the most common use-case of an adamantine weapon, koolaid manning your way through a 1-3 foot thick wall, was in fact feasible. I fully agree with you that using an adamantine weapon to dig-dug your way through a mountain is impossible without a huge amount of time.


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Still though I don't think a Carbon based life form can go much faster then the above numbers. Maybe the orc can hit mach 9 probably less for bigger races if you think about it. (blood flow issues).


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Also I should suggest being careful when using science on fantasy. I remember flight of the dragons. You want fantasy to just disappear!?!


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J4RH34D wrote:

It won't kill them but it will knock them so far into the negatives it will take them damn near close enough to eternity for them to regen.

Did we just find a new way to kill the terrasque by picking it up and putting it down very very quickly.

Another fun bit of maths.
Let us look at the kinetic energy required to stand up at that speed.
To simplify we will just use the mass of 1kg for the head section of our rogue.
It proves the point I am trying to make.

Ke = 1/2 * m * v^2
Ke = 0.5 * 1kg * 2718.40338^2 = 3694858.4 J
= 3.69 MJ
This is 883 Kilo Calories
Sesame Butter (Tahini) has 595 calories per 100 gram serving
We would need to eat 148 kg of sesame butter to get the calories to do this even once.

Converting that much energy from potential chemical to kinetic has loss, that lost energy (heat) would boil you from the inside.

SCIENCE

nothing a little fire immunity wont fix


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Lol Lady-J you and me would fight If I was running a game for you.


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Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Hugo Rune wrote:
It's just a matter of time, energy and effort. Smashing through the wall in one or two rounds and then walking through the new archway, which some people think is possible with an adamantine weapon is absurd. That's because the rubble which is created has to be moved out the way and it has to be done in a fashion that doesn't cause the wielder damage. In your own example, you have a 15 foot cone of rock (about 2500 lbs) that previously occupied the square directly in front of the pickaxe wielder and now occupies the wielder's square and two others behind the wielder. If that happened in one round, then you are probably looking at taking damage roughly equivalent to being trampled by a bison. If the miner took more time then no they wouldn't take damage but they would be moved further away from the face by the expanding pile of rubble which would then need clearing. Rock is heavy so the people (i.e. other party members, who may not be strong) clearing the rock may not be able to carry large pieces, especially whilst wearing armour and carrying weapons. This leads to a scenario where the party are making a lot of noise for many rounds, whilst potentially unarmed and unarmoured and making the terrain around themselves difficult. The root of the problem being people forget that excavating through a wall creates rubble, which isn't disintegrated by adamantine weapons.
I can see the reason there. I was just trying to make sure that it was clear that the most common use-case of an adamantine weapon, koolaid manning your way through a 1-3 foot thick wall, was in fact feasible. I fully agree with you that using an adamantine weapon to dig-dug your way through a mountain is impossible without a huge amount of time.

i made my warmachines body entirely out of adamantine for the sol purpose of being able to pull a koolaid man should the situation arise


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I am now going to do some more maths, becuase maths.
If we take the going prone as falling, to accelerate the fall faster than the speed of gravity our rogue literally has to throw himself at the floor.

If he somehow manages to fall at the speed we used earlier of 2700 m/s how much fall damage does he take?
2700m/s.
To reach that height during free fall he would need to fall from 372 000m
This is 1220472.44ft

Pathfinder falling damage is 1d6 per 10ft, we assume he makes the acrobatics and is intentionally jumping meaning he takes:
(1220472/10)-2 = 122045d6 lethal and 1d6 non lethal.
This puts him at an average damage taken of 427 157.5
The terrasque would take 427 157.5-15 damage = 427 157.5
This would drop it to negative 426 617.5
He regens at 40 a round.
This means he takes 10665.4375 to regen. Or 1066.5 minutes. Or 177 hours.
Or 7.4 days.
Gives you plenty of time to come up with a way to kill him


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Still not impressed.


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J4RH34D wrote:

I am now going to do some more maths, becuase maths.

If we take the going prone as falling, to accelerate the fall faster than the speed of gravity our rogue literally has to throw himself at the floor.

If he somehow manes to fall at the speed we used earlier of 2700 m/s how much fall damage does he take?
2700m/s.
To reach that height during free fall he would need to fall from 372 000m
This is 1220472.44ft

Pathfinder falling damage is 1d6 per 10ft, we assume he makes the acrobatics and is intentionally jumping meaning he takes:
(1220472/10)-2 = 122045d6 lethal and 1d6 non lethal.
This puts him at an average damage taken of 427 157.5
The terrasque would take 427 157.5-15 damage = 427 157.5
This would drop it to negative 426 617.5
He regens at 40 a round.
This means he takes 10665.4375 to regen. Or 1066.5 minutes. Or 177 hours.
Or 7.4 days.
Gives you plenty of time to come up with a way to kill him

fall damage is capped at 20d6 and if your unlucky the damage would barely bypass its dr


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20d6 per fall technically your falling a lot of different times.


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I am going to do some more maths.
And this is going to get tricky.

If we are using free actions to prone and stand. That then means the motion is instantaneous.
Now we can't really have instantanious motion, so we instead use limits.

We say the limit as t->0.
We are going to assume a 1kg head again. We are going to assume a 1m tall person.
So the head is 1m off the ground.

The required speed for the head to get from 1m up, to on the floor is calculated as follows:
V = lim as t->0 of D/T
V = lim as t->0 of 1/t
V therefore -> to infinity
So
As all our other calcs require v as a multiplicative in them, all our other calcs approach infinity too.
We require infinite energy, produce infinite heat and boil off the earths atmosphere creating a global firestorm.
And we cause INFINITE FALL DAMAGE
Meaning we may not technically kill the terrasque, but it will take infinite time for it to regen, so it is dead for all intents and purposes.
It is even betetr than dead actually, because nobody can revive it, or heal it.
Infinity + or - a finite = infinity

We didn't kill the terrasque. We did something better.
Also if we picked it up and did this, we would die from the damage, which means we could be revived and walk away from the incident.
But the terrasque is in a permanent coma.


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I missed the 20d6 cap on fall damage.

We can redo the above calcs with instead of using a single fall, we do infinitely many falls, meaning we do infinitely many instances of 20d6.
This means we come out at the same conclusion.

A thoroughly defeated terrasque, and a dead character that can be revived.


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Okay that one is a little scary. Eh I'll win imitative. besides who is going to be able to resurrect you after you destroy the planet anyways.


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Though this does start getting into the realm of bigger infinities though.

As if someone had infinite time they could cause infinite healing and an infinite - an infinite can be a an interger.
but we would probably experience the heat death of the universe before that became a concern, so time is not really infinite in terms of providing infinite healing.

But a wizard and a cleric could create a timeless demiplane and heal it that way, as then they really would have infinite time.
And we are back at bigger infinites.

lim as x->inf of X^2-X tends to infinity.
Above see that the difference of two infinites is infinite.
Below see they can be finite.
lim as x-> inf of (x+1)-x tends to 1


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Pun-Pun wrote:
Okay that one is a little scary. Eh I'll win imitative. besides who is going to be able to resurrect you after you destroy the planet anyways.

My friendly wizard in his pocket dimension :P

We all know Pun Pun wins at this stuff, but it is fun breaking it in other ways


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I mean I mostly just sleep eat and keep people on their toes. what else would you do with infinite power?


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Pun-Pun wrote:
Okay that one is a little scary. Eh I'll win imitative. besides who is going to be able to resurrect you after you destroy the planet anyways.

i got a build to kill a planet its just to bad that the cr is way to high to be pulled off in a normal fasion


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What would happen if you tried to hit a baseball pitched at 90% the speed of light?

This article goes into the fun we can expect with our rogue.

Some highlights:
"The ball smacks into them so hard that the atoms in the air molecules actually fuse with the atoms in the ball’s surface"

"the tremendous force from this ongoing thermonuclear explosion barely slows it down at all."

Our rogue literally triggers nuclear fusion with the air molecules


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Lady-J wrote:
Pun-Pun wrote:
Okay that one is a little scary. Eh I'll win imitative. besides who is going to be able to resurrect you after you destroy the planet anyways.
i got a build to kill a planet its just to bad that the cr is way to high to be pulled off in a normal fasion

Still sounds like fun.


Pun-Pun wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Pun-Pun wrote:
Okay that one is a little scary. Eh I'll win imitative. besides who is going to be able to resurrect you after you destroy the planet anyways.
i got a build to kill a planet its just to bad that the cr is way to high to be pulled off in a normal fasion
Still sounds like fun.

ya only put it together cuz one of my dms challenged me to make a build that could do over 13k damage in one hit using any means necessary, his jaw dropped when i showed him the results of over 400k


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J4RH34D wrote:

What would happen if you tried to hit a baseball pitched at 90% the speed of light?

This article goes into the fun we can expect with our rogue.

Some highlights:
"The ball smacks into them so hard that the atoms in the air molecules actually fuse with the atoms in the ball’s surface"

"the tremendous force from this ongoing thermonuclear explosion barely slows it down at all."

Our rogue literally triggers nuclear fusion with the air molecules

That poor unsuspecting batter... reminds me of the what would really happen if superman punched you? physics video (spoiler nothing good.)


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ME and T-Lion figured out that with a 256 strength score(I think that was the number) You could theoretically pick up the combined mass of everything. Like all matter in the entire universe. In fact you could probably juggle 3 universes at once.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
ME and T-Lion figured out that with a 256 strength score(I think that was the number) You could theoretically pick up the combined mass of everything. Like all matter in the entire universe. In fact you could probably juggle 3 universes at once.

so what would 14504 str be able to do?


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Lady-J wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
ME and T-Lion figured out that with a 256 strength score(I think that was the number) You could theoretically pick up the combined mass of everything. Like all matter in the entire universe. In fact you could probably juggle 3 universes at once.
so what would 14504 str be able to do?

More


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Anything?

uh looked up the thread and turns out I undershot the number it was 2929 str score. which was 1.27E+147 Solar Masses so the number has 147 0's 127,000... in solar masses.


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necromental wrote:
Hugo Rune wrote:
Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Hugo Rune wrote:
In real life, the effective volume of excavated earth at least doubles its pre-excavated volume - for loose rock it's often much more than twice the volume. The dwarven ranger would just bury themselves in rubble trying to hack through a wall.

Well that's not true at all. He'd only have that issue if he was tunneling into the side of a cave continuously. Most walls aren't so thick that rubble is a huge issue. After all swat teams aren't covered in rubble when they take down a wall with C4. There is a ton of particulate, it's messy, and there is debris everywhere, but no one's buried going through an indoor wall or even most exterior walls.

Several things

1. The explosive force of C4 is significantly greater than the explosive force of a pickaxe and so can distribute the rubble further and SWAT teams stand a safe distance back before detonating, an option unavailable to the wielder of the pickaxe.

2. Modern buildings don't often have 3 foot thick hewn stone walls, or even 1 foot thick masonry walls (both thicknesses from the PRD). The minimum in game volume a medium character could crawl through is 2.5x2.5 (squeeze height and width). That is 6.25 cubic feet of rock per foot of wall thickness (pre-excavation volume), that weighs 150-175lbs per cubic foot. It all has to be cleared (now 13.5 - 27 cubic feet of volume) and put somewhere out the way before the gap can be squeezed through.

3. A pickaxe wielded by a STR20 character could do 44 points of damage on a crit. Given a 10 foot by 10 foot by 1 foot section of masonry has 90HP. The dwarf has broken just shy of 50 cubic feet of masonry with one blow (possibly about the same as a wrecking ball?). That's nearly 3.5 tons of falling rock he is stood directly in front of that will now occupy 100 to 200 cubic feet of space.

Yes but that's not rules of the game, that's real life physics. You also don't determine structural damage on nearby buildings when you...

But ... DRAGONS!!!!


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That the Mythic creature template/subtype allows access to any universal monster ability. And doesn’t increase CR until MR 2.


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Hugo Rune wrote:
It's just a matter of time, energy and effort. Smashing through the wall in one or two rounds and then walking through the new archway, which some people think is possible with an adamantine weapon is absurd. That's because the rubble which is created has to be moved out the way and it has to be done in a fashion that doesn't cause the wielder damage. In your own example, you have a 15 foot cone of rock (about 2500 lbs) that previously occupied the square directly in front of the pickaxe wielder and now occupies the wielder's square and two others behind the wielder. If that happened in one round, then you are probably looking at taking damage roughly equivalent to being trampled by a bison. If the miner took more time then no they wouldn't take damage but they would be moved further away from the face by the expanding pile of rubble which would then need clearing. Rock is heavy so the people (i.e. other party members, who may not be strong) clearing the rock may not be able to carry large pieces, especially whilst wearing armour and carrying weapons. This leads to a scenario where the party are making a lot of noise for many rounds, whilst potentially unarmed and unarmoured and making the terrain around themselves difficult. The root of the problem being people forget that excavating through a wall creates rubble, which isn't disintegrated by adamantine weapons.

What are the rules for rubble spray when breaking an object? In fact you need a feat to create a damaging spray when breaking an object. Also again as I pointed out above its not hard to have comparable damage to the games C4 equivalent by 5th level, and the guy with the hammer is ignoring the walls hardness the explosive isn't. While i do get that we are looking at a targeted strike instead of AoE, the rubble isn't immune to being moved by the strike. Now of course unless they release the Miners of Golarion supplement we will never have a full set of rules for how it should work but in this case your RAI and our RAI are on equal footing. An unless your applying this level of realistic scrutiny to everything else your players and NPCs do I would actually claim your running the rules RAMVORD a (rules as my view of reality dictate) and not even by RAI.


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Rysky wrote:
Tinalles wrote:

Here's one:

PRD, the Magic chapter in the Core rulebook wrote:
If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Perception skill drops by 4.
I've known about this for years and never seen it come up. Something to keep in mind if you have a permanent Arcane Lock and a permanent Alarm spell on the same door, I guess.

oooo!!!

*takes notes*

I know, right? Wow.


Java Man wrote:
I would also be very interested in seeing the stat block for this CR4 wall...

As would I... for... a friend...


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You can’t move diagonally past a corner. Even with a 5 ft step.


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Vlaeros wrote:
Java Man wrote:
I would also be very interested in seeing the stat block for this CR4 wall...
As would I... for... a friend...

I already did, but:

Here's another one.

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