Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Things to do to convince Paizo to do 2 scenarios / month:
1) Review SFS Scenarios!
Note: I have not done this yet. But I know that Tonya said at GenCon that it would be helpful if we started reviewing the scenarios and giving feedback!
2) Schedule SFS Games!
Show your players a good time! Explore, Cooperate, Report!
3) Promote SFS Games
Get other GMs to run SFS. Generate excitement! Build a community!
Tell the stories of your games on your blog, on Facebook, in the forums.
Talk it up at conventions!
Create the vision of what SFS will be like once its as big as PFS, and build towards that.
4) Write Strawberry Machine Cake Filk!
Okay, I admit that is what I do... But making SFS popular, and helping keep the buzz going is important.
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...please, Dear Divine, no.
I understand people are excited, and that's .
However, I don't want to see the campaign burn itself out in a year or two because they were trying to meet an unrealistic demand or pace.
As noted above, reviews are important, schedule some to run if you've got the mojo to run a new system, promote if you have a good local venue.
But more importantly, manage the expectations slightly to prevent burn-out.
It can be done.
Patience, disicipline...
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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If we want them to produce 2 scenarios a month, I think it would be a better course to slowly build to that. Let's make sure the demand for 1 scenario a month is there, address any problems in the game or in the OP for SFS and continually gauge the interest.
I think building up to that in a year to 18 months would be a better course (even though we all pretty want 2 scenarios/month right now.)
I think we need to build a strong foundation before ramping up production.
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I don't think playing or GMing twice a month will lead to anyone's burnout. If they invest in the capacity, they'll do just fine. I'm not asking to stretch themselves too thin, I'm asking them to increase their capacity to publish more.
It's an entirely new system.
The Core rulebooks sold out on the first day of GenCon this year. There are probably hundreds of thousands of people who haven't been able to get a copy yet, or if they have, have needed to get it replaced.
Writing a scenario is not just 'hire some people to write more'.
Every new scenario is an additional portion put on the Campaign Leadership, Developing, and Editing teams.
And there are people who WILL burn out trying to prep two brand-new scenarios a month.
Much as Mark said, go slow, build the market and demand.
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I also note that they are totally going through a Season 0, the scenarios are still trying to find the correct balance, and at the moment they are able to get low level play 'right' before ramping up.
We only have a few scenarios, but you can see they are still a bit inconsistent, but I really love Fugitive (even if it is way too short).
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I'd rather stay at one scenario a month, as I can fit that into my schedule as a GM and experience "the whole story." I've also been surprised and mildly disappointed by the lack of interest in Starfinder where I live, despite Pathfinder being very popular. In my last SFS game, I was at the minimum of 3 players and had to run a GMPC, and I might have to cancel the next scheduled session if I don't get enough RSVPs. How have the rest of you found attendance? I'm sure it'll grow as more people get into it.
Venture-Captain, Illinois—Fairview Heights
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I will run my 17th table of credit this Saturday, 13 for our store(s) and 4 for a con. I have also played the AP and 4 of the 6 currently released scenarios on one character. All of this has been done brick and mortar and 6 of those tables come from running the AP (one time as multi-session). I would say that gives the opinions I am about to express on the volume of available credit some legitimacy based on more than token sampling.
First off, this is now the 8th consecutive week that this still isn't Pathfinder. So let's just drop the Pathfinder does it all in scenarios thing, because it's not an equivalent argument. Pathfinder modules are NOT PFS modules. Starfinder APs ARE SFS APs. This means you have to accept that you might need to factor APs into available society content release, not just scenarios, because they are intended to be the same thing as a 3-part story arc, fully Society compatible and with no omission of content. You can't hang onto your preconceived PFS notions for an SFS discussion.
Secondly, SFS has been out for (almost) 8 full weeks. The AP is intended to be equivalent to 3 tables (it's even broken down into 3 parts) of regular scenarios and is intended to be played in Society. We can argue the semantics of purely mechanical tables (I watched it get played in 6.5 hours of crunch and zero flavor and I GM'd a table of it that went 13.5 hours of play in a 16 hour marathon session that only stopped to go out to eat), but we'll use Paizo's stated intention of table equivalency for the purposes of this discussion.
That means 17 weeks of scenarios, and 18 weeks of adventure path. That's 35 weeks Society intended content in 52 weeks. That absolutely DOES compare with PFS, even if it's not a direct 1:1 ratio of scenarios. PFS doesn't get the AP treatment SFS gets with it being designed for Society.
Week 1 (17-23 Aug): 1-00 (Tier 3-4)
Week 2 (24-30 Aug): 1-01 (Tier 1-2)
Week 3 (31 Aug - 6 Sep): Quests (Tier 1)
Congrats on level 2!
Week 4 (7-13 Sep): AP 1 (1 of 3) (Tier 1-2)
Week 5 (14-20 Sep): AP 1 (2 of 3) (Tier 1-2)
Week 6 (21-27 Sep): AP1 (3 of 3) (Tier 1-2)
Congrats on level 3!
Week 7 (28 Sep - 4 Oct): 1-02 (Tier 1-4)
Week 8 (5-11 Oct): 1-03 (Tier 1-4)
Week 9 (12-18 Oct): 1-04 (Tier 1-4) Happy Horrorween!
Congrats on level 4!
(Based on RPGG and several posts from Paizo reps that have stated the intention to have all AP content designed for sanction from the get-go, not just the first volume of the first one)
Week 10 (19-25 Oct): AP 2 (1 of 3) (Tier 3-4)
Week 11 (26 Oct - 1 Nov): AP 2 (2 of 3) (Tier 3-4)
Week 12 (2-8 Nov): AP 2 (3 of 3) (Tier 3-4)
Congrats on level 5!
Week 13 (9-15 Nov): 1-05 (Tier 1-4) Time for a new character, but you're not out of content yet and haven't even had to run an evergreen twice, yet!
Week 14 (16-22 Nov): OMG, you have to take TWO WHOLE weeks off from new SFS content now if you marathoned the last 13 straight weeks! Well it's a good thing the quests, the commencement and the first volume of the AP provide 5 evergreen opportunities to fill the void during Thanksgiving!
Week 15 (23-29 Nov): Happy Thanksgiving, now go murder some space goblins! (Evergreen week 2 of 5)
Week 16 (30 Nov - 6 Dec): 1-06 (Tier 3-6) (Now level 5.2)
Week 17 (7-13 Dec): AP 3 (1 of 3) (Tier 5-6)
Week 18 (14-20 Dec): AP 3 (2 of 3) (Tier 5-6)
Week 19 (21-27 Dec): AP 3 (3 of 3) (Tier 5-6)
Congrats on Level 6(.2)!
Week 20 (28 Dec-3 Jan) 1-07 (Tier Unknown)
Congrats on Level 7! (If 1-07 is another Tier 3-6)
Week 21 (4-10 Jan): AP 4 (1 of 3) (Tier 7-8)
Week 22 (11-17 Jan): AP 4 (2 of 3) (Tier 7-8)
Week 23 (18-24 Jan): AP 4 (3 of 3) (Tier 7-8)
Congrats on Level 8!
Week 24 (25-31 Jan): Evergreen week 3 of 5
Week 25 (1-7 Feb): 1-08 (Tier Unknown)
Week 26 (8-14 Feb): Evergreen week 4 of 5
Week 27 (15-21 Feb): Evergreen week 5 of 5
Week 28 (22-28 Feb): 1-09 (Tier Unknown)
This is where it starts to break down and increase some of the gaps. But guess what? YOU ONLY HAD TO TAKE TWO NIGHTS OFF IN 28 WEEKS! There IS NO SHORTAGE of SFS content. There's only a shortage of willingness to play the AP and run the evergreens a second time on ONE character.
Level 4 character here (my other is level 3), as of tomorrow I will have run all content but Into the Unknown as a GM (have played the quests, but have not played the special)... am picking up 3 more (1-02/03/04) this weekend. (Will put me at having run 00, 01, 02x2, 03x2, 04x2 = 8 tables plus the AP, which can't be reported.) Not as many as you have run, but a fair number. I'm missing one piece of content as GM and one as a player.)
Ditch the evergreens and there are 7 weeks of dead space (har har) in there.
It's not the end of the world. I still wish that we had more scenarios. I think it would have been nice to have had 3 scenarios scheduled every 2 months and the changes to the APs. That would have been the right balance IMO.
I do not really want to do the AP again. I may feel differently in January, but for now (having finished it last week) I'm not keen on playing or running it. It was OK, but not OK enough to want to repeat it.
I'm eventually going to run Into the Unknown (I would have at the con, but multiple other GMs decided to), and I think I might be OK with running it again given I was OK with how it played. The evergreen scenario is OK. It makes me laugh because of the "oops" factor inherent in one of the sections.
And, finally, the content gets thinner the further out we get. The more the evergreens need to be repeated...which they do, shortly after your timeline stops. We'll see if we get more content as the season goes on, or if we're going to have more "dead space" to deal with...
(Note that the changes to the APs are, pricing and length issues aside, excellent. Being able to run every AP all the way through and do it in event or campaign mode is great. Probably the single best move they made with Organized Play in Starfinder.)
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Paizo is conservative (for good reason).
Right now Starfinder is the new kid on the block and everybody is excited about it.
Paizo will want to see if this thing actually has legs before committing too much more resources to it.
If I were Paizo, I'd wait AT LEAST 6 months (probably closer to a year) and see what sales are then and how many SFS games are actually being run then.
I'm running one game a month locally AND running the AP as well. That seems enough to me for awhile.
Please No. 2 SFS plus 2-3PFS a month is too much to keep up with.
But if you can keep up with 1 of each per month, then somebody who is playing only one or the other should be able to keep up with 2 scenarios for just one or the other of these games.
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While clearly requiring more planning at the design stage, even if there was no comittment to regularly publish more than 1 per month, sprinkling in some themed specials would be a nice touch and increase the volume availble. For example an evergreen halloween deep space horror, a christmas/holiday scenario, a winter scenario on a hoth-like planet....etc.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Oddly, I don't even try to keep up with PFS scenarios. I do them as assigned or requested, or because I hear they're fun. Half the scenarios that I GM are picked because someone on here has PMed and said, "Have you tried SFS 3-14, Strawberry Machine Cake & Pi yet? It's kind of goofy with lots of weird NPCs. There's the Taste Test of Triune, and a Pi fight where they fling around equations and whipped cream. It'd be a good one for you."
It has been nice to be able to keep up with EVERYTHING Starfinder. But that doesn't mean that I don't want more.
Hmm
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Oddly, I don't even try to keep up with PFS scenarios. I do them as assigned or requested, or because I hear they're fun. Half the scenarios that I GM are picked because someone on here has PMed and said, "Have you tried SFS 3-14, Strawberry Machine Cake & Pi yet? It's kind of goofy with lots of weird NPCs. There's the Taste Test of Triune, and a Pi fight where they fling around equations and whipped cream. It'd be a good one for you."
It has been nice to be able to keep up with EVERYTHING Starfinder. But that doesn't mean that I don't want more.
Hmm
What do we have to do to ensure that that synopsis becomes the real SFS 3-14?
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Oddly, I don't even try to keep up with PFS scenarios. I do them as assigned or requested, or because I hear they're fun. Half the scenarios that I GM are picked because someone on here has PMed and said, "Have you tried SFS 3-14, Strawberry Machine Cake & Pi yet? It's kind of goofy with lots of weird NPCs. There's the Taste Test of Triune, and a Pi fight where they fling around equations and whipped cream. It'd be a good one for you."
It has been nice to be able to keep up with EVERYTHING Starfinder. But that doesn't mean that I don't want more.
Hmm
What do we have to do to ensure that that synopsis becomes the real SFS 3-14?
I don't know, but season 3 better have a 3-00. 3-14, the 15th scenario of the season should contain 9 flavors of pi to be "flung" by 26 contestants, observed by 5 judges and cost 35 credits to enter. That would be a 10 in my book.
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You really assume it's going to take THAT long to get more Strawberry Machine Cake content? Oh, you sweet sweet fans...
Strawberry Machine Cake is my Wheel of Time and you are my Robert Jordan. I wait in eager anticipation for each scenario, hoping for the next SMC plot twist or continuation.
Starfinder Society Developer
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Build up a good picture of how a SFS scenario should be built, refine the template that freelancers get sent.
Updating our internal documentation is already on the agenda. Since the first batch of scenarios, I've learned a lot, and am already working to improve documentation as we start assigning new outlines. Admittedly, a lot of that should be seamless from an outside perspective, but I wanted to highlight this as something that takes (a fair bit of) development resources for both the Starfinder and Pathfinder (ACG included) sides of Organized Play .
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Build up a good picture of how a SFS scenario should be built, refine the template that freelancers get sent.Updating our internal documentation is already on the agenda. Since the first batch of scenarios, I've learned a lot, and am already working to improve documentation as we start assigning new outlines. Admittedly, a lot of that should be seamless from an outside perspective, but I wanted to highlight this as something that takes (a fair bit of) development resources for both the Starfinder and Pathfinder (ACG included) sides of Organized Play .
Yeah, I figure it's cheaper in the long run to refine the process now, than later.
I've only barely gotten into Starfinder (rolled up a character for the AP today) so I haven't looked at how scenarios are laid out. But I hope that in SFS (as I hope for PFS) that usability for the GM gets enough priority compared to trying to fill up the page nicely.
More practically, I'd rather have pages with some whitespace on them, but get all the statblocks for an encounter nicely grouped together in an appendix, than flip back and forth because one monster is in the middle of the scenario but his henchman is in the appendix.
I understand that big chunks of whitespace in actual books are unacceptable, but I don't think the same logic automatically carries over to scenarios. Paizo doesn't have to print and ship them. Also looking at PFSPREP there's a large audience willing to print more pages if that makes statblocks more convenient.
Don't get me wrong: I love that we have statblock appendices at all in PFS, but I think they could be even better, and at the same time make life a little easier for the layout people.
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I know this may sound silly, but Lau is onto something. I love showing pictures of the NPCs faces to my tables as well. I would love to see an appendix with significant NPC photos and bios, with only 1 per page (to avoid accidental spoilers of upcoming interactions) of non-monster story NPC's in one appendix and monsters (including story-centric) in a second appendix. It's always nice to be able to put a face to a name and maybe get some background on why your character might know who that is.
In PFS terms (God I cringe at having to pull a PFS reference in), when I started as a new player, I didn't know who Torch or Drendel Dreng or Aspis Consortium were, but I wanted to. One of my first scenarios, Destiny of the Sands, part 1, I asked the GM why I care about who certain entities are and it took them by surprise. They also had to sort of compose a brief, but logical background on the fly for me. Since I started GMing, I have asked myself, why doesn't Paizo include this stuff in the scenario instead of writing only for a long-term player base?
If they're important, give the GMs enough background that 4 years from now, when someone is playing a season 1 scenario for the first time. the 1 year experience GM can give a reasonable description of who Luwazi Elsebo is, what she did for the Society and why we should help this rebel outcast who wants a limited edition copy of Strawberry Machine Cake's live album, "Star Sugar Heartlove with Sprinkles."
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Starfinder Society Developer
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We're deviating a bit from the original thread topic, so if people want to talk more about "Scenario Improvements", feel free to create a new thread.
One thing I will address, is the idea of format/layout changes for Starfinder Society scenarios. This is something I hear a lot about, often with the added comment of "since you work with electronic products, then it should be fine" and "we don't care about a bit of extra printing".
There are two problems with this approach:
First, the more we start doing things differently for Organized Play products, the more that opens us up to potential errors in development/editing/layout. If I were to suddenly get struck by a bus (don't worry, I have agreements to avoid this), and John/Linda were stuck on other projects, then someone else from the company might need to come in and take over. The more divergence that Organized Play has from our "standard formatting", the more difficult it is to keep things consistent. Now, this isn't to say we won't do some Organized Play-specific changes; we already do quite a few of them. But as someone who came aboard fairly recently, I can say that Organized Play already has a fair number of unique items to get used to.
Second, while I see some notes about GMs being willing to print additional pages, that doesn't match up entirely with the feedback we've received from volunteers. Some GMs really prefer to have shorter page counts and less ink expenditure. So there's a balance in how we handle things like extra appendices, or additional information on NPCs. That being said, I'm aware people would like to see more information like this, and I'm hoping to figure out ways we can improve on some of our story line retelling, without forcing GMs to read every scenario we publish!
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While I completely understand the limitations of resources, I would greatly appreciate an increase in the release of SFS material. My general observation is that the small number of available scenarios has led to "rationing" SFS play, particularly the non-repeatables. Sure, it is theoretically possible to play up to level 2-3 with the available content, but it isn't sustainable and provides unique challenges to Organizers trying to balance between evergreen and new content (for new and more experienced players.)
As a slight tangent, I don't think that running the AP as a supplement to Scenarios is a valid expectation for most locations. From experience, I had enough trouble running a three part scenario like Quest for Perfection with the same people at my FLGS, let alone an AP. We have had some successful AP runs during Gamedays in my area, but they've required a dedicated subset of the core members. I like the fact that the structure makes it easier to have as an option, but in practice it's going to be a challenge to integrate it into the schedule.
Anyway, I think that Hmm has summed up pretty much the best ways to encourage further expansion. I've been encouraging people that are playing home games with SFS content to go ahead and register to more accurately reflect demand.
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Here in WA a number of our stores have been either alternating PFS and SFS content on their normal nights. Or they have set up another day of the week but running every 2 weeks.
As with most things, have patience. There are a bunch of bugs that need to be worked out of the rules and how scenarios are put together.
While I completely understand the limitations of resources, I would greatly appreciate an increase in the release of SFS material. My general observation is that the small number of available scenarios has led to "rationing" SFS play, particularly the non-repeatables. Sure, it is theoretically possible to play up to level 2-3 with the available content, but it isn't sustainable and provides unique challenges to Organizers trying to balance between evergreen and new content (for new and more experienced players.)
As a slight tangent, I don't think that running the AP as a supplement to Scenarios is a valid expectation for most locations. From experience, I had enough trouble running a three part scenario like Quest for Perfection with the same people at my FLGS, let alone an AP. We have had some successful AP runs during Gamedays in my area, but they've required a dedicated subset of the core members. I like the fact that the structure makes it easier to have as an option, but in practice it's going to be a challenge to integrate it into the schedule.
Anyway, I think that Hmm has summed up pretty much the best ways to encourage further expansion. I've been encouraging people that are playing home games with SFS content to go ahead and register to more accurately reflect demand.
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You really assume it's going to take THAT long to get more Strawberry Machine Cake content? Oh, you sweet sweet fans...Oh no, of course not darling Thursty! We're just all hoping the subplot will be around that long.
Maybe we can have a Strawberry Machine Cake concert happen at the Blakros Museum on Absolom Station
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My issue with running the APs for Society is running open/public games. Normal Society play fits nicely on single evening session.
From what I have observed, you can run the first AP under 6 hours if everyone keeps on point. So that could be a weekend day session at a game store.
I have not dived in to the second AP is it will run in the same time.
The main store I use has a weekly PFS night getting two tables. (depending on the scenarios)
Right now I have stretched out the new scenarios to run every other week-ish still December. Hopefully the busy holiday season will keep everyone else occupied and then figure out how run consistent sessions in 2018.
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Here in WA a number of our stores have been either alternating PFS and SFS content on their normal nights. Or they have set up another day of the week but running every 2 weeks.
As with most things, have patience. There are a bunch of bugs that need to be worked out of the rules and how scenarios are put together.
We have a couple different groups in this area that have various levels of SFS participation. The one location closest to me has been alternating off weeks for PFS and SFS, for example, while another location has opted to pretty much just stick with PFS. We have attracted some players that have only been interested in SFS though and are uninterested in PFS play.
Myself, I am fairly patient , and again, I have a pretty good understanding of the resource limitations involved. On the other hand, I hope that the initial enthusiasm towards SFS I've seen in a few players doesn't die down due to a lack of consistent play sessions or a clear path to mid-tiers.
Of course, after writing this post I have Write Like the Wind stuck in my head, and I'm not above writing a filk of a filk...
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As a side question, what has been the experience of people fitting the AP's into their SFS play? Are you just breaking it up over three sessions?
How are we dealing with the 'level gap' between the AP's - would it ruin 'continuity' to have something between the AP chapters so you could keep playing with one character?
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As a side question, what has been the experience of people fitting the AP's into their SFS play? Are you just breaking it up over three sessions?
I believe most locations are breaking it up into 2-3 sessions. Apparently the first AP can be completed in roughly 6 hours, but until there is good data to back it up, I wouldn't be willing to run it in a single Gameday like I would, say, Emerald Spires 1.
How are we dealing with the 'level gap' between the AP's - would it ruin 'continuity' to have something between the AP chapters so you could keep playing with one character?
The way the AP ranges are broken up, you'll be required to supplement experience with the AP with Scenarios.
Since Adventure Path adventures are multi-session events, Starfinder Society characters may not be used in other Starfinder Society events until they receive a Chronicle sheet for the adventure.
So until you finish the AP chapter (i.e. Incident at Absalom Station) you can't play the character again between sessions.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I have been offering both SFS and PFS at our gameday, at which we host 3-6 slots each month. Our participation has been on a downswing lately and tables don't always make for PFS. But they ALWAYS make for SFS. So far we have run The Commencement twice, the Quests once, and Fugitive on the Red Planet once. At our current rate we will have exhausted the available adventures around the beginning of December. I don't look forward to the effect this may have on participation.
Also, I have a very difficult time finding GMs for PFS, mostly due to the enormous amount of materials being very intimidating to potential GMs. This has not been a problem for SFS as people are exited to try out the new system from both sides of the GM screen and the game does not have the rules glut problem PFS has.
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I like 16/year, with the extra 4 with seasonal themes, each tied to one of the factions.
For example:
Acquisitives attempt to persuade SMC's lead singers to promote "Founders' Week", a celebration of the Society's existence, but allied gangs (and haters of SMC) take this as an opportuntiy to ignite warfare and attempt a coup on it's leadership. (July)
Exo-guardians prevent an undead apocalypse from charging SMC's stage (October).
Wayfinders need to deliver new tech presents and exclusive SMC singles to first contact races who want to ally with the Society (December).
Dataphiles are sent to discover why one SMC band member channels shouted bits of Scoured Stars secrets in her dreams repeatedly, and to bring her in as an asset. But they've inadvertently created a looping temporal anomaly. (February)
Second Seekers planet hop, searching a dozen celestial bodies trying to find information on the Scoured Stars incident, discovering that SMC's first album lyrics are clairvoyant clues. (April)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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i bet if enough get sold they will make them quicker
There is a sort of Catch 22 with this. If there isn't enough product available, people may lose interest and buy less product. So if Paizo merely reacts on the numbers of product sold, they may act too late to stop loss of interest. So Paizo needs to be proactive. And that, I think, is why this thread is important. It may find ways of telling Paizo the popularity of the product beyond simple sales numbers.
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The current offerings have some balance issues that need to be fixed in future scenarios.
One thing that needs future attention is the AP lengths. Currently they are many pages short of Pathfinder APs.
I imagine it's because SF is breaking ground, and only two core books are out. But I'm hoping that as splatbooks come out (like Pact Worlds in March) with more options that future APs lengthen into full pages.
To gain traction and to keep the draw of Starfinder, SF products will need to meet the PF AP standard, I think. I've really enjoyed SF so far, and hope for its success.
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I'm inclined to say let them get the balance sorted during a slow production time, and then start with a faster scenario release. Remember, this is season 1, not season 5 or 9.
I've sort of been looking at it as Season 0 to be honest, the spot where they iron out the bugs and work out the best formats/length/balance etc.