If the paladin knows they aren't evil, then killing them is 100% an evil act and as per their code, they've fallen. They're almost certainly still LG because one act isn't enough to shift their alignment, but they've fallen.
Unjustified killing is always evil, but what if ther's a good justification. In my example I said they are not evil by nature but they are still a threat. For example, they are soldiers of an enemy king, who may or may not be evil by himself. They are not evil themselves - they are still going to obey their orders if given, including orders to kill.
"a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor..." = If the strategy is laid out by legitimate authority, they have to follow it or they break their code.
That is the situation I had in mind. The person in charge of the defense decided that the best way is to kill enemy soldiers. The paladin may disagree, and act in a way that is against the overall strategy.
Well the first point is a "greater good" situation, aka a necessary evil but I'd personally say it's neither fall worthy nor good... He'd have to genuinely believe he was saving enough people for it to be worth the sacrifice of those soldiers. Or for him to have concluded (whether mistakenly or not) that the soldiers were in fact evil / about to commit evil acts. After all, the paladin can only sense auras, not actually tell for sure if the person is evil...
As far as the second point goes, the person in charge sounds like he's still the legitimate authority in this situation, unless the paladin is given enough proof that this authority is evil, committing crimes or corrupt, disobeying him is a code break that is almost certainly ooc*. The paladin may believe he is smarter or knows better, but he's bound to his code and he almost certainly knows that.
*
I really don't understand the debate here.
Still, what's the counterargument? That alignment change isn't possible? That any alignment change would also be a code violation? That paladins wouldn't change alignment, so it's moot?
I'm not sure there is an argument, you may have been jaded by the internet, friend! It's a wholesome discussion of what examples cause a paladin to fall and why. There aren't really any "counterarguments", just scenarios and our opinions of what should happen based off our interpretation of the rules :)
Plus he forgot characters with high CMB's and the grease spell, reverse gravity; really several options that will cause a paladin to fall.
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Plus he forgot characters with high CMB's and the grease spell, reverse gravity; really several options that will cause a paladin to fall.
Banana peels too :)
Well, one such act wouldn't be enough to fall"(A paladin) loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act." = If the paladin knows they aren't evil, then killing them is 100% an evil act and as per their code, they've fallen. They're almost certainly still LG because one act isn't enough to shift their alignment, but they've fallen.
If a character had a tendency to ignore the strategy and follow his own feelings about what is good, I don't think he would be Lawful Good."a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor..." = If the strategy is laid out by legitimate authority, they have to follow it or they break their code. In situations lacking what the paladin believes to be a "legitimate authority" I think the paladin would assume that he is the most qualified to be the legitimate authority and to be the voice of law. A paladin could also decide that an existing authority is corrupt/insane and therefore no longer "legitimate", though because of his inherently lawful nature, I doubt he would do so lightly... If he did, then he might begin to not respect authority at all, which would lead to a code breaking fall.
Define "legitimate".... I'm pretty ready to predict that no paladin worth his salt will recognize the legitimacy of the hel backed chelaxian rulers. ergo, none of their laws applies in his book and he's fully free to flout them all with no chance of falling.
Define "legitimate".... I'm pretty ready to predict that no paladin worth his salt will recognize the legitimacy of the hel backed chelaxian rulers. ergo, none of their laws applies in his book and he's fully free to flout them all with no chance of falling.
Well I'd say that would fall pretty snuggly into the category of "A paladin could also decide that an existing authority is corrupt/insane and therefore no longer "legitimate"". I'm assuming Cheliax doesn't produce many paladins for this reason...
But if you're asking if it could lead to a fall, I think it's reasonable to believe that too much exposure to this kind of government over time would lead to dissolution with the law and maybe even a loss of respect for authority, which as detailed would cause a fall.
For visiting paladins, do bear in mind many of their laws will still be grounded in basic morality...
unless the puppy registered on detect evil...
You don't check the etymology, do you? (it comes from Greek for Iron)
I'm sure it does, lateral lover :)
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If a paladin believes that the only legitimate authority is a King who has been given a blessing by one or more lawful good gods, can they pursue any non-evil means they find necessary to topple the government of Andoran with the goal of getting them to fall under the reign of a King blessed by a lawful good god, and not fall?
If you reword your statement to say:
If a paladin believes that the only legitimate authority is a King who has been given a blessing by one or more lawful good gods, can they pursue any non-evil means they find to change the government of Andoran with the goal of getting them to fall under the reign of a King blessed by a lawful good god, and not fall?
I can't see how this would be anything but lawful good at it's most hardcore.
I mean, I imagined specifically a lot of campaigning and convincing people that their point of view is wrong and that they should support a more lawful government.
So yes, its exactly as you said. There are ways to do non-evil things to change the government. Look back, I did specifically change the wording to avoid such negative combination of "topple" or "overthrow" into change. Because those other words have specific connotations of violence.
Paladin promised to marry his childhood friend, moves away in his teens, and marries someone else after growing up and becoming a paladin. He broke his word, so instant-fall. *Internet logic*
mmmh, that's definitely breaking a vow... I do see a fall coming up unless the paladin makes great amends for it indeed.
Paladin promised to marry his childhood friend, moves away in his teens, and marries someone else after growing up and becoming a paladin. He broke his word, so instant-fall. *Internet logic*
I think I saw that anime.