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In sort of a reverse of the "normal" Genius loci procedure that Barzillai Thrune was seeking to undergo during Hell's Rebels, Golarion itself became sentient, and got up to level 20 in Monk of the Healing Hand, which has the Worst Capstone in the Game. Unfortunately, then Rovagug got loose and was wrecking everything, and Golarion had to use the Worst Capstone in the Game to enable some to survive while taking out Rovagug with it; however, Golarion was too big to be forgotten altogether, even with the use of the Worst Capstone in the Game, and instead this merely created the Gap.
In sort of a reverse of the "normal" Genius loci procedure that Barzillai Thrune was seeking to undergo during Hell's Rebels, Golarion itself became sentient, and got up to level 20 in Monk of the Healing Hand, which has the Worst Capstone in the Game. Unfortunately, then Rovagug got loose and was wrecking everything, and Golarion had to use the Worst Capstone in the Game to enable some to survive while taking out Rovagug with it; however, Golarion was too big to be forgotten altogether, even with the use of the Worst Capstone in the Game, and instead this merely created the Gap.
I'm not going to lie...this is kind of an awesome (though seemingly implausible) theory. :-D
My theory: Aroden's death gets re-written out of history, but takes 300 years to kick in.
Meaning Pathfinder is currently in the middle of the first "Gap" until times gets re-wound, Aroden lives, and prophecy goes back to working.
I'm not sure I understand this one. You're saying that Pathfinder takes place during the time of the Gap rather than before it?
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I'm not sure I understand this one. You're saying that Pathfinder takes place during the time of the Gap rather than before it?My theory: Aroden's death gets re-written out of history, but takes 300 years to kick in.
Meaning Pathfinder is currently in the middle of the first "Gap" until times gets re-wound, Aroden lives, and prophecy goes back to working.
it may well take place during that time.
Aroden's death, and the end of Prophecy, may well have ramifications down the timeline for millenia. Eventually, that might well be punctuated by the removal of Golarion (by some means) which "rights" the timeline or the cosmic order in some sense.
The cost of that, would be the destruction of memory for the intervening time - say the FATES of Greek Mythology can't weave their strings for millenia upon millenia as a result of Aroden's death.
It's only fixed when Golarion, the source of that trauma, is literally removed from existence. The Starstone, being the most connected artifact in the Cosmos to all others, cannot be removed along with the planet, and Absalom Station is built as a cradle to contain its energies from disrupting all existence.
Just a thought.
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I would argue that prophecy has not been fixed in SF. There are still rogue elements who can and will disrupt any destiny they know of: the PCs.They can try to do so.
Of course, every good prophesy usually has an "out" of some sort.
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The Dark Lord will rise and consume all of Golarion, leaving even the Gods helpless, unless rises a group of heroes who seek out the seven lost artifacts of Diaphalian and stand against him in the world's darkest hour.
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This I actually told James Jacobs, was, in my opinion, the biggest failing of Pathfinder. The removal of prophesy took such things away from the GM and limited the GM unnecessarily since prophesy and destiny are a staple of the fantasy genre.
Judging from the vast majority of people, they seem to want Prophesy back in Starfinder as almost all of the theories on the Gap point to people wanting it to return.
eh... the thing is that Pathfinder the system kept prophecy alive and well, and Pathfinder the setting didn't change the mechanic.
personally, i would have preferred that prophecy go bye bye or at the least, be clouded and full of error.
"the prophecy is always right" is such a chore. let it go away.
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I would argue that prophecy has not been fixed in SF. There are still rogue elements who can and will disrupt any destiny they know of: the PCs.They can try to do so.
Of course, every good prophesy usually has an "out" of some sort.
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The Dark Lord will rise and consume all of Golarion, leaving even the Gods helpless, unless rises a group of heroes who seek out the seven lost artifacts of Diaphalian and stand against him in the world's darkest hour.
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This I actually told James Jacobs, was, in my opinion, the biggest failing of Pathfinder. The removal of prophesy took such things away from the GM and limited the GM unnecessarily since prophesy and destiny are a staple of the fantasy genre.
Judging from the vast majority of people, they seem to want Prophesy back in Starfinder as almost all of the theories on the Gap point to people wanting it to return.
eh... the thing is that Pathfinder the system kept prophecy alive and well, and Pathfinder the setting didn't change the mechanic.
personally, i would have preferred that prophecy go bye bye or at the least, be clouded and full of error.
"the prophecy is always right" is such a chore. let it go away.
Golarion is the Pathfinder Setting and it is what killed off prophesy.
Prophesy can be clouded, it can be prone to misinterpretation, but not error. Otherwise you may as well not have it.
Here is a famous one:
"The Matrix of Leadership will light our darkest hour."
Awesome...
Couple questions:
What exactly is our darkest hour? Is it the giant planet destroying robot-God or the hate plague that is consuming the universe?"There shall come a chosen one, through him balance will return to the Force"
Who is the chosen one? What does balance mean exactly?
"The sun of suns will come in our darkest hour and show himself to be a savior."
Again, when exactly is our darkest hour?
"Four warriors, bearing the...
Divination is still a spell in Golarion. If Prophecy were gone, it wouldn't be.
And Divination has a very short time limit. Prophecies of the sort that no longer work in the Age of Lost Omens could be made centuries in advance.
I'm not sure I understand this one. You're saying that Pathfinder takes place during the time of the Gap rather than before it?My theory: Aroden's death gets re-written out of history, but takes 300 years to kick in.
Meaning Pathfinder is currently in the middle of the first "Gap" until times gets re-wound, Aroden lives, and prophecy goes back to working.
I thought that was the idea. The "current day" of PF is in the middle of the Gap, meaning that all the different Adventure Paths.
I mean, look at the description of Triune and...
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Oh, ascended BEFORE the Gap. Missed that.
So...there go the major portions of my theory.
I'm not new to Pathfinder, but this is the first time I've heard of any prophecy in the Pathfinder setting. What book is the prophecy written in? What is the prophecy? When you say it's gone, what do you mean? It vanished with the Gap? Where in the Starfinder book can I read that?
I want to make myself familiar with this, as it seems to be an important plot point in the general setting.
100 years before PF a god named Aroden died. His portfolio included prophecy, which hasn't worked right since. Developer commentary has stated that prophecy was removed to allow the players to actually affect the timeline.I'm not new to Pathfinder, but this is the first time I've heard of any prophecy in the Pathfinder setting. What book is the prophecy written in? What is the prophecy? When you say it's gone, what do you mean? It vanished with the Gap? Where in the Starfinder book can I read that?
I want to make myself familiar with this, as it seems to be an important plot point in the general setting.
Ah! Thank you very much. Yes, I know of Aroden and his death, but I was unaware of the prophecy.
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I'm not sure I understand this one. You're saying that Pathfinder takes place during the time of the Gap rather than before it?My theory: Aroden's death gets re-written out of history, but takes 300 years to kick in.
Meaning Pathfinder is currently in the middle of the first "Gap" until times gets re-wound, Aroden lives, and prophecy goes back to working.
I thought that was the idea. The "current day" of PF is in the middle of the Gap, meaning that all the different Adventure Paths.
I mean, look at the description of Triune and...
...
Oh, ascended BEFORE the Gap. Missed that.
So...there go the major portions of my theory.
In a panel that was presented at Gen Con it was discussed that the Gap would occur typically when you gaming group finishes playing Pathfinder and moved on to Starfinder. So that's why the timeline of the gap is so nebulous.
I think that in this podcast of the Starfinder 101 panel explains that.
Or, if you have both games going on at once, the Gap begins with the beginning of your current Pathfinder campaign, so nobody in your Starfinder campaign can look up anything about your Pathfinder campaign.
Or, I suppose, the beginning of the Gap could be a moving target that gradually slips forward in time to be just before the "now" of your Pathfinder campaign -- but that might make things unnecessarily complicated.
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Or, if you have both games going on at once, the Gap begins with the beginning of your current Pathfinder campaign, so nobody in your Starfinder campaign can look up anything about your Pathfinder campaign.
Or, I suppose, the beginning of the Gap could be a moving target that gradually slips forward in time to be just before the "now" of your Pathfinder campaign -- but that might make things unnecessarily complicated.
Yep, hence the whole nebulous nature of the thing. Basically the GM gets to set the markers and that's that.
I guess that brings us to this question:
Did the vanishing of Golarion cause the Gap (the same thing that caused the Gap caused Golarion to vanish), or did Golarion vanish during the Gap and the two phenomenon are unconnected?
Golarion disappearing is local. The Gap was universal. It would imply htat if they are related, the Gap caused Golarion's disappearance, rather than vice versa.
we don't know if the gap is universal. it may be confined to the galaxy - which also appears to be the range of the Starstone...Golarion disappearing is local. The Gap was universal. It would imply htat if they are related, the Gap caused Golarion's disappearance, rather than vice versa.
Obviously someone tried to travel faster than light without jumping dimensions, and causality broke.
I figure there's got to be a connection somehow. I don't think it's just "something happened, no one but the gods remember, but they're not talking...oh, and by the way, a planet is missing too." I feel like the Gap and the fate of Golarion have to be connected in some way.
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Especially since the disappearance of Golarion was a big deal for the survivors post-Gap. If Golarion had already been gone for years due to unrelated reasons, you'd expect a lot fewer post-Gap survivors to be shocked and astonished by its absence. They may not remember what happened, but they feel like there was supposed to be a planet there.
Exactly, and there's a space station in it's place.
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It could be though. Theoretically, whatever started the Gap could be an event of ancient origin any time after Iron Gods, and the disappearance of Golarion is tied to whatever event ENDED the Gap for all we know. Probably a fire sale at Penney's.
It could be though. Theoretically, whatever started the Gap could be an event of ancient origin any time after Iron Gods, and the disappearance of Golarion is tied to whatever event ENDED the Gap for all we know. Probably a fire sale at Penney's.
Are you sure it wasn't a sale at Kohl's? I can see a sale at Kohl's ending the world faster than one from Penney's. On the other hand, Walmart had a sale the other day and I'm pretty sure I saw Saturn there.
What if Golarion was sick of dealing with the weirdness of the Gap and decided to take a vacation and the gods are like, "Come on, the planet's relaxing, don't disturb it."
I'm thinking that the demise of prophecy (the Age of Lost Omens) and the disappearance of history (the Gap) are the same thing, just flowing in different directions.
You can't see very far into the future, because something has broken the connection between now and then. You can't see very far into the past, again, because something broke the connection between now and then.
It seems weirder to us that scrolls and monuments and inscriptions and historical works all become confused and illegible, because they are concrete objects that existed in the past, but for someone with perfect prophecy, they were concrete objects that existed in the future.
The only real thing that makes me extremely dubious of my own theory is that Aroden is basically a 'local' God. It doesn't seem that he was worshipped anywhere but Golarion, and I'm not certain that his demise "shattered prophecy" anywhere but Golarion, so I don't see why any reverberations of that event from the future to the past would affect anything but the area around Golarion. Did all races everywhere in the galaxy lose access to reliable prophecy when he died?
This is part of my larger problem with theology in this game. Pharasma judges all souls, everywhere, evidently. Triune creates a dimension and communicates plans to access it to virtually all civilizations in the galaxy, simultaneously. Then we have a deity like Iomedae, who's an ascended mortal from one race on one planet in one solar system in the galaxy. Why is she a big deal, again?She seems like a local demigod, while Triune seems like a major player.
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I'm thinking that the demise of prophecy (the Age of Lost Omens) and the disappearance of history (the Gap) are the same thing, just flowing in different directions.
You can't see very far into the future, because something has broken the connection between now and then. You can't see very far into the past, again, because something broke the connection between now and then.
It seems weirder to us that scrolls and monuments and inscriptions and historical works all become confused and illegible, because they are concrete objects that existed in the past, but for someone with perfect prophecy, they were concrete objects that existed in the future.
The only real thing that makes me extremely dubious of my own theory is that Aroden is basically a 'local' God. It doesn't seem that he was worshipped anywhere but Golarion, and I'm not certain that his demise "shattered prophecy" anywhere but Golarion, so I don't see why any reverberations of that event from the future to the past would affect anything but the area around Golarion. Did all races everywhere in the galaxy lose access to reliable prophecy when he died?
This is part of my larger problem with theology in this game. Pharasma judges all souls, everywhere, evidently. Triune creates a dimension and communicates plans to access it to virtually all civilizations in the galaxy, simultaneously. Then we have a deity like Iomedae, who's an ascended mortal from one race on one planet in one solar system in the galaxy. Why is she a big deal, again?She seems like a local demigod, while Triune seems like a major player.
Aroden may well have been a "local god" - but he was also intimately tied to what is probably the most powerful artifact in all reality.
Gods are a fine a dozen in Pathfinder and they die all the time. There's no reason to think the Starstone is unique in a universe that is now estimated to contain 2 trillion galaxies. On a cosmological scale the death or elevation of even dozens of gods doesn't matter much. Nothing does.
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Which brings up the question: are the gods of Golarion the same gods (minus the ascended, at least at first) that are worshiped by all races everywhere, just known by different names. A more universalistic viewpoint on the theology of Pathfinder/Starfinder. If not, where are all the other "local" gods of all those races? Shouldn't they be predominate in the Pact Worlds by this point too?
I do agree that Iomedae was a younger goddess during the game of Pathfinder, but was a major player then due to inheriting Aroden's station for lack of a better term. However, in Starfinder, I would argue that now that she's had nearly 4,000 years experience, and the fact that she is a Goddess of Heroes, she's a major player everywhere.
I think it varies from god to god. Some gods are fairly universal, others are less so. However, in general the most important and powerful gods are also the most universal ones. There probably aren't an abundance of Gods of the Sun who aren't Sarenrae.
Or Ra. Or Nurgal. Or...
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I know exactly what happened...
** spoiler omitted **
How awesome would it be if that really was the answer?! Some idiot somewhere just hit a big red button somewhere and boom thousands of years of history is just gone. I bet the gods were embarrassed and that's why they don't talk about it. LOL!
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How awesome would it be if that really was the answer?! Some idiot somewhere just hit a big red button somewhere and boom thousands of years of history is just gone. I bet the gods were embarrassed and that's why they don't talk about it. LOL!I know exactly what happened...
** spoiler omitted **
To paraphrase Sir Terry Pratchett, if there were a button labeled "end of the world, do not push," the paint would not have time to dry.
Here's a thought, do people actually trust the gods when they say that Golarion is safe? What if it was destroyed, maybe even by the gods for some reason or the other. Maybe to stop some truly evil thing from getting loose or something like that? Maybe the gods themselves caused the Gap, and erased that portion of history to keep it from being repeated, or to cause people to forget that it did happen? What proof is there that the planet still exists?
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Here's a thought, do people actually trust the gods when they say that Golarion is safe? What if it was destroyed, maybe even by the gods for some reason or the other. Maybe to stop some truly evil thing from getting loose or something like that? Maybe the gods themselves caused the Gap, and erased that portion of history to keep it from being repeated, or to cause people to forget that it did happen? What proof is there that the planet still exists?
I imagine that's something that a few evil gods would try to say, or perhaps a cult, especially those following the Devourer. For most of the others, that seems contrary to their personalities, natures, and domains.
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Here's a thought, do people actually trust the gods when they say that Golarion is safe? What if it was destroyed, maybe even by the gods for some reason or the other. Maybe to stop some truly evil thing from getting loose or something like that? Maybe the gods themselves caused the Gap, and erased that portion of history to keep it from being repeated, or to cause people to forget that it did happen? What proof is there that the planet still exists?I imagine that's something that a few evil gods would try to say, or perhaps a cult, especially those following the Devourer. For most of the others, that seems contrary to their personalities, natures, and domains.
I guess that's a fair point.
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Here's a thought, do people actually trust the gods when they say that Golarion is safe? What if it was destroyed, maybe even by the gods for some reason or the other. Maybe to stop some truly evil thing from getting loose or something like that? Maybe the gods themselves caused the Gap, and erased that portion of history to keep it from being repeated, or to cause people to forget that it did happen? What proof is there that the planet still exists?I imagine that's something that a few evil gods would try to say, or perhaps a cult, especially those following the Devourer. For most of the others, that seems contrary to their personalities, natures, and domains.
The Chronicle of the Righteous already established that occasionally the Empyreal Lords get together in a Concordance to agree on a collective action, and in one case, the Seventh Accord, they did something really terrible that they refuse to talk about. So good (demi-)deities collectively lying about something like Golarion for the greater good is not impossible to believe.