It's a hover drone, not a hover-and-shoot drone. Seems like it does just what it says on the box.
Then why are it's free mods flight system x2 and WEAPON MOUNT?
It does seem odd that the hover drone does a lot better when not using hover as a tactic. It seems way better for it to always fly up to some perch and then fire on enemies from up there. Now granted there won't always be a perch, but the majority of the time there probably would be.
Maybe we should rename it to the perching drone.
See I can respect that actually, and I know a lot of others have also said this.
I just found it odd a drone known for flying has issues doing that. Especially since a weapon mount is a free mod it gets.
It's a hover drone, not a hover-and-shoot drone. Seems like it does just what it says on the box.
It doesn't even have any bonuses to the hover action. While it still can hover, it's hardly good at doing so.
Actually, as a tip: the hoverdrone is at its best if you donate both your move and swift action to it.
Since Acrobatics is its class skill, it can use the swift action to hover in place. :)
If you have perfect maneuverability, you can hover automatically without attempting a check, though you can hover as a swift action instead of a move action if you succeed at an Acrobatics check (there is no penalty for failure).
The drone doesn't have perfect maneuverability though, it only has average.
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It's a hover drone, not a hover-and-shoot drone. Seems like it does just what it says on the box.Then why are it's free mods flight system x2 and WEAPON MOUNT?
Every drone comes with at least one weapon mount; that doesn't mean that they have to use it every turn.
If you want a fully autonomous weapons platform, you should use a different drone chassis until you get Expert AI at Lv7. I recommend the Combat Drone chassis. You can use its free weapon proficiency to get Longarm or Adv. Melee proficiency right away (or the ability to switch-hit with small arms and basic melee, if that's your style) and it comes with TWO weapon holders (melee arm or weapon mount) AND minor DR.
The Hover Drone, on the other hand, WILL require some maintenance to make use of all its systems at once (until Lv7). In exchange, it can stay out of reach of non-flying targets' melee attacks indefinitely. That's a very powerful ability to have at early levels, all things considered. I'd buy that for my move action each round (until Lv7).
It's a hover drone, not a hover-and-shoot drone. Seems like it does just what it says on the box.Then why are it's free mods flight system x2 and WEAPON MOUNT?Every drone comes with at least one weapon mount; that doesn't mean that they have to use it every turn.
If you want a fully autonomous weapons platform, you should use a different drone chassis until you get Expert AI at Lv7. I recommend the Combat Drone chassis. You can use its free weapon proficiency to get Longarm or Adv. Melee proficiency right away (or the ability to switch-hit with small arms and basic melee, if that's your style) and it comes with TWO weapon holders (melee arm or weapon mount) AND minor DR.
The Hover Drone, on the other hand, WILL require some maintenance to make use of all its systems at once (until Lv7). In exchange, it can stay out of reach of non-flying targets' melee attacks indefinitely. That's a very powerful ability to have at early levels, all things considered. I'd buy that for my move action each round (until Lv7).
Again I agree, but look this will eventually come up for me or a player. I just want an answer for when it does. A simple yes or no for if a hover drone shoots while flying does it just fall? And why did they go with this option?
Again I agree, but look this will eventually come up for me or a player. I just want an answer for when it does. A simple yes or no for if a hover drone shoots while flying does it just fall? And why did they go with this option?
Yes, it just falls.
If a Hover drone does not use an action to hover or fly and is in mid-air, then it falls. Same as if it were paralyzed or had a condition that prevented its use of any move actions.
If you have not donated actions to it, and it only has its standard action, and use that to fire, then by definition it has no actions to fly or hover and falls.
As for why the designers went with this choice, presumably game balance. However, no one who was not in on those developer discussions is going to be able to answer that part of your question satisfactorily.
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I can only speculate why, but aerial combat is probably going to be more like a dogfight - with characters darting around an area as often as hovering - and less like a race to trade floating full attacks, like it is in PF.
Edit: ninja
I really don't see aerial combat being a thing at all for anything that doesn't have a perfect maneuverability. With ranged weapons being as common as they are, I see flight being used as rocket jumping to a better location, then attacking from that location to get a full set of actions.
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I really don't see aerial combat being a thing at all for anything that doesn't have a perfect maneuverability. With ranged weapons being as common as they are, I see flight being used as rocket jumping to a better location, then attacking from that location to get a full set of actions.I can only speculate why, but aerial combat is probably going to be more like a dogfight - with characters darting around an area as often as hovering - and less like a race to trade floating full attacks, like it is in PF.
Edit: ninja
I don't see flight in combat being a thing for those with perfect maneuverability either. They'd have to at least use their swift action which means no full attack, in fact there's not a lot of benifit to having perfect maneuverability when it comes to action use.
Why would you fly, burn actions, and be in full view of all when you could land, gain cover and attack more or do other things.
Seems silly but in the game where anyone could buy a jet pack fairly cheap I expect flying will be less common and useful than the game where you had to have decently powerful magic or wings.
If there isn't a hover feat in Alien Archive, I think I'll have to add one when we play.
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I really don't see aerial combat being a thing at all for anything that doesn't have a perfect maneuverability. With ranged weapons being as common as they are, I see flight being used as rocket jumping to a better location, then attacking from that location to get a full set of actions.I can only speculate why, but aerial combat is probably going to be more like a dogfight - with characters darting around an area as often as hovering - and less like a race to trade floating full attacks, like it is in PF.
Edit: ninja
I don't see flight in combat being a thing for those with perfect maneuverability either. They'd have to at least use their swift action which means no full attack, in fact there's not a lot of benifit to having perfect maneuverability when it comes to action use.
Why would you fly, burn actions, and be in full view of all when you could land, gain cover and attack more or do other things.
Seems silly but in the game where anyone could buy a jet pack fairly cheap I expect flying will be less common and useful than the game where you had to have decently powerful magic or wings.
Because then you're limited by your cover.
Meanwhile: your flying opponents are making Shots on the Run on your exposed side and retreating to your blind side each round virtually consequence-free. Or they're flushing you out with explosives - again - virtually consequence-free. Or they're Shooting Unwieldy Explosive weapons on the Run! Even if you wise up and Ready each round to attack when they're visible, due to how ranged attacks work, you'll be exposed to them before they're exposed to you. They'll just start making Shots on a U-turn - using your own cover against you. (Double points if your cover has no roof)
If you really want a solution to your no-flying-full-attack "problem:" cast Haste, use Haste Circuits, or be a Hit-and-Run and/or Armor Storm Soldier. Any ability that lets you move and take a full attack is golden.
In short - if you have to choose, mobility > full attacking, especially when flying creatures are involved.
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I always disliked Pathfinder's ability to have flying targets hover and trade full attacks.
The hover drone still works here as a decoy to draw fire if you don't have normal cover or concealment and you need to advance on someone. A primer on basic squad/platoon infantry tactics:
You generally expect to come into contact with the opposing force and if at a reasonable range both will drop prone or seek cover and start exchanging fire. (If you're in a "close ambush" you're better off just charging and shooting at close range.) You then have two basic options: introduce indirect fire to put them in a dilemma, or flank.
Indirect fire, like mortars or artillery, come in from above and don't are about you being prone or having cover. You then face a dilemma - stand up and run to avoid the indirect fire zone, exposing yourself to direct fire without your prone/cover bonuses, or stay in place and get attritted by the indirect fire. In Starfinder terms you can replicate this with grenades (run or take the damage), explode quality heavy weapons (same), or spells (move to break LOS/LOE or continue taking damage).
The flanking option is to break off part of your force to sneak off to the back and then around to the side of the opposing force. They hope to surprise them, but at the least they'll negate the cover if they come from an inconvenient angle. The enemy, expecting a flank, watches their sides and prepares to shoot anyone coming from that direction. Worst comes to worst, your flankers also drop prone and your original element can assault through the objective while they're busy with the flankers. (You should ready some actions to shoot anyone who gets up or leaves cover for just this reason, rather than just constantly shooting low percentage shots at everyone in cover.)
The hover drone gives you a single flanker even if you're in a hallway or alleyway with no horizontal flanking opportunities. It pops up under master's control and takes a shot without suffering from cover bonuses. The enemy can either ignore it as a lesser threat, continuing to shoot at the party who has cover bonuses, or expend their actions shooting the drone down. Any readied actions to shoot anyone that pops out of cover also trigger against the drone. Then the rest of the party, who might have delayed initiative for exactly this opportunity, can charge/run/move up to closer cover without having to worry about an extra round of being exposed to fire in the open or eating readied actions.
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The thing that boggles me is the fact that it is a HOVER drone by design.
Then why does it have a land move 30 and an average fly maneuverability? A drone built primarily to hover would have a 0 move speed, and a perfect fly.
I can buy a drone from Walmart today that can do this, but a Mechanic can't build one?
You can buy a drone that can Fly, on it's own, and fire a 45 caliber pistol, without you aiming it and without the recoil knocking it out of the sky? (Never mind lift 60 lbs)
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And the Hover Drone CAN Hover on its own without falling out of the sky. If you have a Fly speed, you can take 10 on your Fly checks until wind speeds exceed a Windstorm. A 1st-Level Hover Drone has a Fly skill of +7, meaning it can take 10 for 17, meaning it can hover in Light, Moderate, and Strong winds with no issue.
However, it takes an action to do this or to move normally, so it can't shoot AND hover unless you Assume Direct Control. (until Lv7, when it can take a full round of actions without your help)
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Maybe giving too much credit but I'm guessing it was balanced that way since a Hover Drone a) Has higher Dex than any other Drone and b) it could fly around to negate any cover bonuses by attacking above.
Seems like a Hover is meant to be a Utility thing rather than a combatant superior to the drone called "Combat Drone". Having access to Flight at level 1 is a very nice bonus (not as huge as it is in PF, but still a pretty powerful tool if you're creative with it)
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By this design the only way a hover drone can take any standard action on its own is for it to land at the end of its move action and perform the standard action from the ground on its next turn. So in essence it is a land drone that can fly. That means for 7 lvls the only action that the hover drone can take while utilizing its 2 advanced flight mods (which make up 2/3 of the drone initial mods. its last one being a weapon mount and apparently you can't use all 3 in conjunction without crashing your drone) is a move action. any other drone can pick up these advanced mods at lvl 11 and 14 respectfully(sic) and by that time they have expert AI to prevent this from happening, which essentially makes them better flying drones than the hover drone despite it being designed just for that.
I was wrong: as written, Expert AI lets a Drone take a Move Action OR a Standard Action to Attack OR a Full Attack at -6. Any flying drone suffers from this same problem.
Why aren't people complaining about the fact the Mechanic can clearly build a drone from nothing in 24 hours, but is limited to one at a time? I mean, I can go out to Walmart and buy 10 drones that can hover. I can even program them all to simultaneously follow 10 different flight paths. Why shouldn't a Mechanic be able to have 10 drones all shooting at once? I ask the people who think the Hover drone should be able to hover and fire without using Master Control, does the above sound okay to you?
Feel free to say otherwise, but I'm guessing most would agree the Mechanic shouldn't have 10 independent drones because its not fair compared to other classes. Certainly turning it around, that doesn't sound like a CR 1 encounter.
Arguing whether a drone should be able to hover and shoot is a question of game balance, not a question of does this make sense in the real world. There are a ton of things which make sense in the real world and don't work in Starfinder. And vice-versa. But that is ok, as Starfinder is intended as a game, not a perfect simulation of the far future.
If you're in a home game, talk with your GM (or if you are the GM) rule it as you see fit. Be aware there may be unintended consequences (like nobody using combat drones after level 3 or so).
My guess is the developers of Starfinder decided they wanted to reduce the effectiveness of flying relative to Pathfinder (or maybe we've been playing Pathfinder all wrong - there's probably a debate somewhere on the forums over whether the hover action is a free action or if it needs to be combined with another action). In Starfinder, nobody can use the full attack while flying without falling. Probably because of the ubiquity of flight, they wanted people to still have a reason to walk or climb.
A side effect (or perhaps intended effect) of making that hover option a move action or swift action with perfect maneuverability was to restrict a hover drone's ability to fight while in the air. The "hover drone" lives up to its name. It can hover just fine, with unlimited duration. But it is not a "combat drone". And since combat is not its specialty, I see no problem with it moving to the ground when it is trying to fight without extra actions donated from its Mechanic. Its a trade off when compared to the other drones, especially the "combat drone".
Since it won't be able to take any standard actions while flying until lvl 20.
The 1st level ability Master Control does lets the drone take a move and a standard at the cost of a move action from the Mechanic.
Are people advocating a change to the drone rules (making the hover drone better than other drones) or the flight rules (making all flight better than other movement modes)?
I'll point out any staggered creature with average or poor maneuverability wouldn't be able to take any standard actions without falling as well.
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I was wrong: as written, Expert AI lets a Drone take a Move Action OR a Standard Action to Attack OR a Full Attack at -6. Any flying drone suffers from this same problem.Just reread it myself. This makes the hover drone even more useless IMO. Since it won't be able to take any standard actions while flying until lvl 20. What's the point then? People keep saying it is for utility, but it still can't take any standard action while flying.
So for utility sake let's say the first mod I take at lvl 1 is manipulater arms and I want my droid to open a door. Here are two scenarios:
A) 1st turn use its move action fly the drone to the door, at the end of the move make a free acrobatics check to hover. 2nd turn use the drones standard action to use its manipulater arms arms to reach out and open the door, drone crashes to the ground as a result.
B) 1st turn use its move action to fly the drone to the door, landing on the ground at the end of its movement. 2nd turn try use the drones manipulater arms to open the door, but wait it is a TINY drone so it can't even reach the button to open the door from the ground.
So my drone can't even open a door? Where is the utility here. You're in the same boat if you try have your drone use the computers or engineering skill as a standard action with the tool arm mod. Seeing how it only has a reach of about 2 feet from the ground that it has to be landed on to take a standard action with out crashing.
A tiny creature can interact with anything in its square up to 5 feet. I've never seen someone be simulationist about the heights of doorknobs and say 'sorry that control is in an adjacent square'. So if you're being super rules lawyer, it would seem that it has to land to take any actions, and if it's in a place where it can't land, you have to spend your move action to let it use its standard (which is better than not being able to make the check at all for the terrestrial drones, which is the Utility we are talking about)
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This is one of those things that is coherently written, but I'm still not sure it is doing what it is INTENDED to be doing. I understand the rules as written, and I'm pretty sure I understand how to use the drone in those conditions, but I'm really not convinced that was the INTENT.
The hover drone, while hovering, is ONLY able to use actions to attack, or manipulate objects, if you are directly controlling it, until level 7, when expert AI allows it to use a standard action to attack, but not anything else, as well as a move action.
So if you take a Skill Unit like Engineering or Computing, the Hover Drone can't use it while hovering until level 20, unless you directly control it, which eliminates one of the benefits of a Skill Unit (namely, that it can be used when it isn't under your direct control).
If you give it Manipulator Arms, the Hover Drone can't use them while hovering, until level 20, unless you are directly controlling it, as it can only use the Expert AI standard action for an attack.
The Hover Drone can't even automatically hover by using a move action. In stressful situations, like combat, you can't take 10, so even in a completely windless area, the drone has to make a DC 15 check every round just to hover. Without using a feat, the drone MIGHT fail to hover successfully until level 7 (7 ranks+3 Class+4 Dex+1=15)!
I don't see the hover drone as being INTENDED to be an unreliable flier for most of the game. I don't see it as being intended to fly to a LEDGE, then shoot. I don't see it as being intended to fly to a convenient desk, then operate a computer. I don't see it as being intended to fly to a door, land on the ground, and then try to unlock the door. I don't see it as being unable to just FLY OVER AND PICK UP SOMETHING unless you directly take control.
It's smaller, less heavily armed (than the combat drone), slower (than the stealth drone), and less well protected (by camouflage or armor) than either. I just can't believe that the intended use of the hover drone is just to fly over to things, then either land or let you take over, for most of the class progression.
I understand that the ability to fly is itself a very useful one (worth two advanced drone mods, in fact), but I do not think that it is SO useful that to be able to do anything else should require Direct Control or 7th level. I don't even think that this is the way the developers envisioned the drone as working in actual play.
I would probably simply give it the ability to AUTOMATICALLY hover as a free action in any area where taking 10 would allow it to succeed in a Fly check (whether it could take 10 or not). This would allow 1st level drones to automatically hover in light to strong winds, and higher level drones to hover in worse conditions.
Expert AI does not let it use a Move Action and a Standard Action in the same round without Master Control. It just adds the option to make Full Attacks without Master control with an additional penalty. This has been stated already. You need True AI in order to do that.
I would agree I understand the mechanics and how it currently applies but the intent of it seems like it is an open question. The flight rules seem designed for aerodynamic flight but the hover drones seem like quad copter designs and if so hovering is default for them. Doing nothing returns them to a hover it is their resting state.
I think this is one of those things that gets FAQ'ed eventually but for now I just go with the rules as written.
Expert AI does not let it use a Move Action and a Standard Action in the same round without Master Control. It just adds the option to make Full Attacks without Master control with an additional penalty. This has been stated already. You need True AI in order to do that.
Ah, you are correct! That makes it even less useful than I had stated!
so in one of the play test the drone was able to take one action (firing its lazer) and did not have to roll to "hover" id take it as more like the drones we can fly now it auto hovers anyway no need to roll.
Either they misunderstood the rules or the rules changed after that.
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I think a lot of clarification needs to be done by the designers on the interaction between mechanics, their abilities, and drones.
I agree. This is one that I think needs a revision, and some designer's notes. Even though the rules aren't contradictory, they are kind of clunky to understand, and I'm really not convinced that what got published was the way they intended them to work in actual play.
As another example, aside from my concerns about Hover Drones, why is the Standard Action that a drone can take by itself only usable for an attack? Why can't it use a Standard Action to provide Covering Fire or Harrying Fire? Why can't it use a Standard Action to use a skill (if the skill would use a standard action)?
P69
Drone
You begin play with a powerful robotic drone to house your
AI. You build and control this drone, which accompanies you
on your adventures and is capable of combat, espionage, and
other specialized tasks
:)
but i think Alexa or Siri could keep a drone hovering while doing a web search.
I don't know about that. My car's GPS hasn't figured out 1 way roads.
Or cliffs yet.
:)
but i think Alexa or Siri could keep a drone hovering while doing a web search.
You can't just give it your swift action though, you would have to give it your move action first, which means giving it your swift to make a hover check would be pointless.
Another point no one seems to have brought up:
There is a jump jet drone mod, it lets you jump 30 feet in any direction. If the flight mod and the jump jet mod hash out to the same functionality (granted the flight mod would have slightly better range over multiple rounds) then why are there two mods published literally one page away from each other?
You can't just give it your swift action though, you would have to give it your move action first, which means giving it your swift to make a hover check would be pointless.
Another point no one seems to have brought up:
There is a jump jet drone mod, it lets you jump 30 feet in any direction. If the flight mod and the jump jet mod hash out to the same functionality (granted the flight mod would have slightly better range over multiple rounds) then why are there two mods published literally one page away from each other?
The jump jet and flight mods don't hash out to the same functionality.
Under the interpretation that Drones can't hover without a move action, the difference between jump jets and Flight system x2 (which the hover drone has) is you always fall after using jump jets if you aren't holding on to something or standing on the ground. Jump jets don't let you hover, and they also have a once per minute usage.
Flight system gives you a fly speed. Just like any other creature with a fly speed. Using a single move action, the Drone can stay in the air the entire round, and from round to round.
A flying creature with average maneuverability and the staggered condition would have the exact same problems a hover drone would have doing anything in the air (without the Mechanic using Master Control).
If you do use Master Control then the drone with Flight can in fact hover there and do something, while the jump jet drone jumps up, falls, and fails to use its standard action where it needs to (30 feet up).
Flight system gives you a fly speed. Just like any other creature with a fly speed. Using a single move action, the Drone can stay in the air the entire round, and from round to round.
A flying creature with average maneuverability and the staggered condition would have the exact same problems a hover drone would have doing anything in the air (without the Mechanic using Master Control).
Actually, a normal flying creature with the staggered condition is still better off than a fully functional hover drone since it can use swift actions and the drone can't.
I'm not sure why they thought flight was so advantageous to the drone that they essentially gave it a worse-than-staggered condition permanently, it seems to me that this was probably not intended.
So in reality the flight system's only advantage over the jump jets (in the case of not using master's control, which is the premise of the thread) is the fact that you can do it every round since attempting to use the other seeming "advantage" of being able to take your action at a height of 30' or higher is immediately cancelled by the falling damage it costs to do that.
The flight systems biggest advantage is recon missions. This especially in open world areas can be very useful it can fly up and scout over terrain and give the party a very high vantage point to spot possible threats. If the mechanic concentrates on the drones actions it is a very mobile attacker able to strike down at things that otherwise may be concealed.
I do agree that the drone should probably have the swift action so it could go into a hover if you are not fully concentrating on it though as the mechanics for shooting when you are splitting your attention are odd. I am hoping the technology guide coming out this year clarifies this.
Flight system gives you a fly speed. Just like any other creature with a fly speed. Using a single move action, the Drone can stay in the air the entire round, and from round to round.
A flying creature with average maneuverability and the staggered condition would have the exact same problems a hover drone would have doing anything in the air (without the Mechanic using Master Control).
Actually, a normal flying creature with the staggered condition is still better off than a fully functional hover drone since it can use swift actions and the drone can't.
I'm not sure why they thought flight was so advantageous to the drone that they essentially gave it a worse-than-staggered condition permanently, it seems to me that this was probably not intended.
So in reality the flight system's only advantage over the jump jets (in the case of not using master's control, which is the premise of the thread) is the fact that you can do it every round since attempting to use the other seeming "advantage" of being able to take your action at a height of 30' or higher is immediately cancelled by the falling damage it costs to do that.
It's not totally unfixable, but the fix is expensive and has major drawbacks - with Expert AI and the haste spell (e.g. from installing a haste circuit armor mod), you can fix the issue.