My friend is planning on making a martial character either a fighter or barbarian. He's not interested in having a high AC he just wants to do 'damage on a legendary scale' he says. Which class do you recommend and which archetype would be best? Thank you all for your insight, I'm going to get him to join these forums.
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BARBARIAN CORDIALLY RECOMMEND BARBARIAN.
IF AM WANTING BE LEGENDARY, GET LANCE AND DIRE BAT.
AM THING CALLED RAGELANCEPOUNCE. AM DOING 2X DAMAGE ON FIRST HIT, 3X IF CHARGE AM SPIRITED, THEN AM GETTING REST OF ATTACKS AFTER, THEN IF AM HAVING RIDE-BY ATTACK AM ABLE GO RIGHT ON BY.
ALSO RECOMMEND PROFESSION ENGINEER FOR COLLAPSING ANYTHING THAT AM UNDERGROUND, OTHERWISE TOO SMALL FOR BAT ENTRY.
ALSO SPELL SUNDER, BECAUSE SPELL SUNDER AM BEST RAGE POWER.
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that all depends on what content is allowed for use
Any Paizo official and most races. No third party
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define most races, cuz as a general term that would mean about 90% of all creatures and if that's the case great if that party is level 4 or higher a Minotaur would be a great martial there are a few others that would be good as well like a were-tiger but if your limited to just these (Catfolk, Duergar, Gnoll, Grippli, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Ifrit, Kobold, Lizardfolk, Monkey Goblin, Orc, Oread, Ratfolk, Skinwalker, Sylph, Triaxian, Undine, Vanara, Aasimar, Android, Dhampir, Drow, Fetchling, Gathlain, Ghoran, Kasatha, Lashunta, Shabti, Suli, Tengu, Tiefling, Vishkanya, Wyrwood, Wyvaran, Aquatic Elf, Astomoi, Caligni, Changeling, Deep One Hybrid, Ganzi, Gillmen, Kitsune, Kuru, Merfolk, Munavri, Nagaji, Orang-Pendak, Reptoid, Samsaran, Strix, Wayang) then its a small amount of races of which teifling, aasimar, human, half orc, kasatha, half elf, samsaran, goblin, orc, lizard folk, gnoll would all make pretty decent martials depending on what you want them to dothat all depends on what content is allowed for useAny Paizo official and most races. No third party
Ya those are OK except the Minotaur and Were-Tiger. Is a Human barbarian still one of the best?
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I think its safe to assume when a person says most races they mean most of the things that have actually been given a racial stat bonuses and are explicitly counted as playable races.
Definitely barbarian. Beast totem into pounce. Half orc for ferocity and toothy.
What level are you looking at?
And as Lady-J said content limits? How much optimization is too much?
Starting at level 1 campaign goes to 18. Is Toothy any different from Tusked?
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The core lift is Human, Half elf, Halfling, Half orc, Dwarf, Elf and Gnome, then there are other races added with other none core books which are explicitly playable, I.E Kasatha and Vishkanye. Then there are other monsters which one can play if one so chooses which are not explicitly playable races, set aside from the rest of the bestiary for the purpose.
This is why if you look at the bestiaries on the paizo page one of the things they advertise is "player friendly races" which are explicitly playable, as separate from the general content.
So far Hanraks suggestion seems like the best one. That is significant damage with that archetype and nice feats.
AM BARBARIAN OP NERF PLSnot really
I agree. I feel bloodragers are much more dangerous when built right and access to Primalist Archetype.
My friend is planning on making a martial character either a fighter or barbarian. He's not interested in having a high AC he just wants to do 'damage on a legendary scale' he says. Which class do you recommend and which archetype would be best? Thank you all for your insight, I'm going to get him to join these forums.
A well-built fighter has a lot to offer. Here is my suggestion. Not super Uber damage...it is consistent damage with lots of Criticals. While still having Good defenses.
Human Mutagen Warrior Fighter 20-point buy:
Str:18, Dex: 13, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 12, Cha: 10 (Level ups go into +1 Dex and rest +STR)
Traits:
Dangerously Curious- UMD as a class skill
Defender of the Society- You gain a +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Feats:
Human (Focused Study Racial) Skill focus- UMD
1 HD: Weapon Focus- Scimitar
1 Fighter Bonus: Power Attack
2 Fighter Bonus: Combat Reflexes
3 HD: Toughness or Iron Will
4 Fighter Bonus: Weapon Specialization- Scimitar
5 HD: Cut from the Air
6 Fighter Bonus: Lunge
7 HD: Iron Will or Toughness
8 (Focused Study) Skill Focus- (you Pick)
8 Fighter Bonus: Improved Critical- Scimitar
9 HD: Smash from the Air
10 Fighter Bonus: Critical Focus
11 HD: Critical Versatility
12: Fighter Bonus: Greater Weapon Focus- Scimitar
13 HD: Greater Weapon Specialization- Scimitar
Discoveries:
7: Wings (every fighter wants to fly)
11: Vestigial Arm (For holding a Shield while you 2 hand a weapon)
15: Greater Mutagen
19: Grand Mutagen
Advanced Weapon Training:
9 HD: Armored Bravery
13 HD: Item Mastery- Dispel Mastery or Trained Initiative
17 HD: Focused Weapon
So far Hanraks suggestion seems like the best one. That is significant damage with that archetype and nice feats.
Except 2 handed fighter is a Strict downgrade from the Vanilla fighter now. ANY archetype that gives up both Bravery and Weapon training is considered a downgrade now.
My friend is planning on making a martial character either a fighter or barbarian. He's not interested in having a high AC he just wants to do 'damage on a legendary scale' he says. Which class do you recommend and which archetype would be best? Thank you all for your insight, I'm going to get him to join these forums.
A few ideas:
Synthesit Grappler (Hero Labs does not handle Kraken Wrack correctly. Should be WIS+4 (total +7) damage to each successful grapple check.)
Not everything is optimal, and you should always feel free to adjust things to suit personal preferences.
My friend is planning on making a martial character either a fighter or barbarian.
If he is openminded about multiclassing, adding a level of barbarian to an otherwise straight fighter gives him an even better start. Take barbarian at level 1 and he gets the full d12, increased movement speed and rage bonuses from the beginning. Armor training I at character level 4 adds well to barbarian's fast movement: He then moves at 40 feet even with medium armor.
And while both classes are not great at skills, at least their class skills are somewhat different.
If he wants rage powers, a second level of barbarian qualifies for a few nice ones, at least: Animal Fury, No Escape, Lesser Beast Totem / Lesser Fiend Totem, Knockdown etc.. He can pick up multiple with the Extra Rage Power feat.
Technically, he could also go for Variant Multiclassing, but both classes' progression is not really exciting.
So far Hanraks suggestion seems like the best one. That is significant damage with that archetype and nice feats.Except 2 handed fighter is a Strict downgrade from the Vanilla fighter now. ANY archetype that gives up both Bravery and Weapon training is considered a downgrade now.The Two-Handed Fighter archetype should still qualify for advanced weapon training cause the archetype only changes weapon training slightly but doesn't get rid of it. So I'd say it's hardly a downgrade.
BTW I like your mutagen fighter build and yeah blood ragers are all too dangerous if built properly.
It removed Bravery which takes away one of the best defensive tools handed to a fighter, Armored Bravery which can give you more return than Iron will in boosting your worst and most dangerous save. Nothing like being dominated or Magic Jarred and tearing apart your teammates because of being a DPR machine. Which happens when DMs get sick of it.
But thank you for the compliment on the build. I like using 1 handed weapons in 2 hands myself because Grab/Grapple is a common thing and I like to keep swinging in those situations. Sure toothy helps but you are not taking All those Weapon feats to be pushed into just biting your way out a grapple. Just a habit of mine I picked up over the years. The Damage difference on Average between a Scimitar and Falchion is 1.5 at its base dice. So I'll Sacrifice the 1.5 to have options in a common condition.
Hes too new to attempt a hybrid class like the Bloodrager i think. Sounds like the fighter can put out more DPR? If we have two front liners would a fighter and a barbarian work well together? Or not really?
Hes too new to attempt a hybrid class like the Bloodrager i think. Sounds like the fighter can put out more DPR? If we have two front liners would a fighter and a barbarian work well together? Or not really?
Absolutely they would work well together.
They have the ability to stand solo or to flank but does not depend on having a flanking partner to do damage.
whats the stat generation so we can throw together some appropriate builds
Its 20pt buy can't go below 7 after racial mods. Is that what u meant? And thank you very much in advance
Oh and he's on the fence between Human and Half-orc. He likes the favored class bonus of the Human for superstition. Because it seems in the long run it is better than Sacred Tattoo/Fates Favored combo. Which race out of those two would you personally recommend?
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go half orc, trade out ferocity for the + to saves get fates favored trait, then as a half orc you can take human things meaning the human favored class bonus for more superstitionwhats the stat generation so we can throw together some appropriate buildsIts 20pt buy can't go below 7 after racial mods. Is that what u meant? And thank you very much in advance
Oh and he's on the fence between Human and Half-orc. He likes the favored class bonus of the Human for superstition. Because it seems in the long run it is better than Sacred Tattoo/Fates Favored combo. Which race out of those two would you personally recommend?
:O am I reading this correctly? So ur saying take Sacred Tattoo, then the trait Fates Favored, and then take the Human favored class bonus Superstition? Can Half-Orcs do that?
That's awesome. What type of stat allocation would you recommend?
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Since you're leaning towards this style of build anyhow, I'm gonna be lazy and cross-post a build I suggested elsewhere. This is a more defensive half-orc barbarian build that still has significant damage output potential.
I personally like the Invulnerable Rager archetype. You trade away your Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge for advancing your barbarian DR by 1/- every 2 levels.
This combines especially well with the Stalwart feat, and is tailor-made for this class too as it specifically stacks with your class DR.
Now, both of these are explicitly defensive abilities, but remember, your DPR drops to zero when you're dead.
Thus, my Half-Orc Barbarian build would be as follows:
Alternate Racial Traits: Mystic, Dusksight
Class: Barbarian
Archetype: Invulnerable Rager
Stats (20 Point Buy)
Str: 15 +2 Racial
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Favored Class: Barbarian
Favored Class Bonus: +1/3 to the bonus from the superstition rage power each level
Traits: Adopted: Wary of Danger, Fate's Favored
Feats: Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Diehard (1st)
So a few notes regarding the traits and alternate class features. Mystic gets you a free feat towards the prerequisites for Stalwart and a +1 luck bonus to all saves. This is by far the best package for you. Due to the +1 luck bonus, you want the Fate's Favored trait to double this as well. The final trait is simply a way to get +2 initiative without spending your combat trait, which you'll want later. You'll never regret having a higher bonus to initiative. The final alternate racial trait is Dusksight, which trades your racial weapon proficiencies away for low-light vision, a good trade considering you're already proficient with martial weapons and the exotics aren't really worth worrying over. With low-light vision, you can see 80 ft. distance by torchlight in darkness, better than your own 60 ft. Darkvision.
At first level you'd want to buy a guard dog for 25 gp with your starting wealth. This lets you use Handle Animal to get it to defend you, meaning you're essentially getting an extra small attack each round from your dog against anything attacking you that's not an unnatural creature. More attacks mean more DPR. You'll likely want to buy a collection of throw-away junk weapons such as a spear and longspear, sling and so forth.
You take Diehard at 1st level for your feat because this means even if you get knocked into negative, you're not out of the game yet. It's the best timing for taking the feat and might end up saving you from an unlucky critical hit.
2nd
Rage Powers: Reckless Abandon
Your first point of DR comes online. You want to upgrade to a breastplate, and my suggestion is to grab a golf bag of non-masterwork weapons to go along with your newfound wealth. I like to carry a light flail and heavy wooden shield for defensive options, and a lucerne hammer and greatsword for a reach weapon and two-handed, respectively.
The reason you'd get a greatsword instead of a falchion is because you want to be drinking potions of Enlarge Person pretty much constantly. This is by far the biggest DPR boost you can get at this level. A greatsword goes from 2d6 to 3d6, a falchion only goes from 2d4 to 2d6. That's 3.5 points increase average damage per hit from the greatsword vs. only 2 points for the falchion. Since you don't have improved critical or a no-fail attack bonus to back up your critical confirmation, you're better off with straight base damage bonus for now. Later on, when investing into your main magic weapon, reconsider depending on if you plan to get Improved Critical or not.
So your typical combat begins with you drinking your potion of Enlarge Person as your standard, then moving to a tactical position as a move action, drawing your lucerne hammer as you move. This means you've got a large creature's reach weapon threat area, and you'll probably get an attack of opportunity against anything that tries to close into melee range with you. Once you've got enemies close, drop your hammer, draw your greatsword and get slashing.
Also, upgrade your guard dog to a riding dog. Now you have an extra attack each round with a trip attempt on top!
3rd
Feats: Combat Expertise
This level you pick up the feat to pump your DR with Stalwart. You can also consider using this tactically to offset your AC loss from rage too. With this and the Reckless Abandon rage power, you can choose either to boost attack or AC each round as needed. You begin investing into saving for a +1 Furious weapon and mithral breastplate.
4th
Rage Power: Superstition
+1 Strength
More strength! More DR! Better saves! You're also able to buy a combat trained bison now, which is a steal at 75gp. Make sure you're drinking your Enlarge Person potions before you rage, otherwise you're gonna be embarrassing yourself when you have to save against your own potion.
5th
Feat: Stalwart
There's two schools of thinking regarding Stalwart. One says you can stack the dodge bonuses of fighting defensively and Combat Expertise together before adding them to your DR with Stalwart. The other says they're two different sources and therefore don't stack. In the first case you can get DR 7/- by using both at this level, provided you've got the 3 ranks necessary in Acrobatics. Otherwise, just use Combat Expertise if your GM rules they don't stack. This plus Reckless Abandon means you're trading -2 AC for +2 DR, which is a good trade-off to take 4 points of damage off every hit against you. If you got your +1 Furious weapon by now, you're likely not having any trouble hitting and killing in one blow.
6th
Rage Power: Witch Hunter
Iterative attacks! Your pets are probably dead by now, but you don't really care any more since you now have your own second attack each round. You're saving towards a strength belt and laugh at saving throws with +5 morale from Superstition and +2 luck from Sacred Tattoo in addition to your base saves and cloak. You probably have in the range of +18 Fort, +13 Ref and +12 Will against spells.
7th
Feat: Power Attack or Second Chance
So, here's the choice. Do you have almost zero trouble hitting even on your iterative attack? If so, Power Attack is good for this level. You might finally be reaching the point where stuff isn't getting one-hit-KO'ed and wouldn't mind an extra 6 damage per hit. Frankly, taking this feat earlier is a bit of a waste, since you're likely to turn almost anything you hit into a greasy smear on the ground with one blow even without the extra damage. On the other hand, Second Chance is very attractive for a second bite at the cherry if your first hit misses. Both solid choices, with Power Attack coming out ahead if you play a mobile, charge-heavy playstyle, and Second Chance winning if you typically make a lot of full round attacks.
8th
Rage Power: Clear Mind
+1 Intelligence
Will's your weakest save and things are getting nasty, so a free reroll is a good deal at this level. Of course, you could go for Spell Sunder instead, though you're not feat focused to make this an auto-success, and combat maneuvers don't play nice with Combat Expertise, which you'd use for DR. By boosting your intelligence you get the opportunity here to dump an instant 8 retroactive skill ranks into something. I personally like Use Magic Device here, in preparation for next level.
9th
Feat: Improved Critical or Additional Traits
Straight DPR or utility? If you go Improved Critical and a +1 furious falchion, you're gonna be hitting big, big criticals. On the other hand is the Use Magic Device option. Pragmatic Activator trait for Int to UMD, and Underlying Principles for worshipping Nethys to get you UMD as a class skill. There's something deliciously wrong about a superstitious barbarian witch hunter that casts spells from wands that tickles my sense of irony oh so well. A wand of lead blades plus a potion of enlarge person equals a minute of gory awesome.
10th
Rage Power: Eater of Magic
I'm a big fan of rerolls. This is simply must-have material, especially as you have a +7 morale bonus from superstition, assuming you're spending your favored class bonus here. It's the next best thing to having "immune to saves" as a class feature.
11th
Feat: Improved Stalwart
DR 11/- all day, every day. An average CR 11 enemy does between 23 to 32 damage a hit. You're ignoring a third to half of this damage. Yes, it's more defensive than offensive, but it's an amazing return on investment. Alternatively, go for the feat you skipped at 7th or 9th to bump up your DPR.
I like the Beastkin Berserker archetype that allows you to benefit from rage AND shapeshift into up to Huge animals
IIRC it stacks with Invulnerable Rager ;-)
Nice find! Had no idea barbs could be like melee druids, that's great. I guess the question would be would they do more damage in animal form or there normal form? Would they automatically be proficient in natural weapons?
Confused how this could stack with invulnerable rager since they are both archetypes? Can't you only have one archetype?
Anyone know anything about going a natural weapon based barbarian? Are they a very good option? I have read they can get 5-6 attacks by level 4?
Anyone know anything about going a natural weapon based barbarian? Are they a very good option? I have read they can get 5-6 attacks by level 4?
They work but I feel some other classes work it better. But I am a player that likes manufactured weapons and have only built natural attacker 2 times. A Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple and a Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. One had pure focus on NAs and the other could use them in the late game with Form of the Dragon but was focused on Blasting and combat (much like a Dragon)
So you may need someone to brew you a Barbarian. But it will still use the beast totem line of powers for the pounce and claws.
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I like the Beastkin Berserker archetype that allows you to benefit from rage AND shapeshift into up to Huge animals
IIRC it stacks with Invulnerable Rager ;-)
Nice find! Had no idea barbs could be like melee druids, that's great. I guess the question would be would they do more damage in animal form or there normal form? Would they automatically be proficient in natural weapons?
Confused how this could stack with invulnerable rager since they are both archetypes? Can't you only have one archetype?
Archetypes can stack as long as they do not replace or alter the same class feature
I like the Melee Druid image, though the upcoming Shifter base class will likely fit it better.
Know though that the Beastkin Berserker Barbarian is EXTREMELY limited in its choice of shapes : 1 specific animal at levels 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20. And those are set and cannot be changed later on.
You should check the excellent guide to guides of Zenith for links to guides and builds for everything. IIRC you can find the link to it in the sticky thread at the top of the Advice board
Beastkin berserker would also lose any armor or shield bonuses he was gaining though, yes?
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Beastkin berserker would also lose any armor or shield bonuses he was gaining though, yes?
Beast Totem (Natural Armor) & Invulnerable Rager (DR/-) mitigate this quite a bit.
Barbarian >> Fighter. Not just when it comes to DPR (Pounce >> Anything Fighter gets) but also when it comes to utility (Spell Sunder, Flight, Ultimate Clarity) and saves (Superstition, Eater of Magic, Rage will bonus). It might loose out on AC, but if you pump your DR/- enough (Stalwart, Dragon Totem) then you can easily become the superior tank.
If the Beastkin Beserker can transform into a creature with Flight, then you don't need stuff like Greater Elemental Blood (Air), and if it can give you pounce then you don't need Beast Totem. Thus, it's more than worth the 3 Rage Power tradeoff.
Turning Huge also gives you the opportunity to abuse stuff like Vital Strike (which the Barbarian does best due to Furious Finish). Honestly, this archetype is SO ludicrously good. Just hearing about it now and I can't even imagine NOT playing as a Beastkin Beserker.
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Beastkin berserker would also lose any armor or shield bonuses he was gaining though, yes?There is always Wild armor :-)
Or get a 1st level pearl of power and a couple spare scrolls of mage armor, and just get the wizard to cast it on you. Spend the ~15000 GP on something else. Will also be an option much earlier than wild armor.