So I have been struggling on my level 2 character without success for PFS. I have a archer inquisitor which is really nice but at level 9 only play him a couple times a year. My Investigator is about to hit level 6 so about to leave the low level game. I'm trying to make a more str based character..rolled up a level 1 bloodrager/skald that looks really nice on paper...but hasn't really been clicking. I'm sure it is many things but what struck me was that even though he was the strongest person in the group and capable of hitting really hard, I was getting blocked by someone's purchased pet with no way of getting to the opponent even though i was burning through performance (which involved losing a round) The fact that even with a +9 to hit at level 2 and I was still missing didnt help either (hit one time for 15 points of damage)
So I feel like I've gotten used to archery too much and being able to attack who i need when i need to offers a major boost to the party surviving. So debating on going archery again. But I really want to steer clear of the inquisitor style if i can, so trying to come up with a full caster that uses archery...but I admit I'm greedy, I would like 4+ int ins skills. I was looking at the nature fang druid, but most druid spells wouldnt really help with archery and while I like the ability to cast spells that could be really helpful I'm just worried that being a prepared caster would be missed opp. I am trying to avoid a hunter since my inquisitor is basically a hunter (made before hunters came out) Any suggestions?
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I have a nature fang druid archer. Who I quite like. For spells you have to think a bit differently.
Stone Discus for example let's me make multiple attacks with sneak attack in surprise round.
Everything that entangles makes you hit more often. The reverse of an accuracy boost I guess.
You can get a grappling animal companion with vine strike to make things really easy to hit.
Burst of radiance and Shadowmind blind creatures hit and sneak attack.
If you take the eagle domain is place of an animal companion you can make your manyshot very reliable and get a protector familiar out of it.
Now that that is out of the way some other options.
Oracles - Wood is great with an increasing accuracy bonus and divine favor/power. Battle would work as well. The Core feats you will need to get the old fashion (no bonus feats for any of these) but it has a lot of options.
Cleric - Guided Hand, Erastil, waste a feat on channel smite, but you can be high wis, decent strength and get access to Hunter's Blessing. You would likely play a caster cleric for a few levels
or
A normal dex archer cleric that uses self buffs.
Druid option 2 - Air elemental with a resizing weapon and arrows of different sizes for your form. Option take a level or two of Ranger and grab the feat Shapeshifting Hunter.
Try a wood oracle - wood bond gives you something like full BAB without spending an action to activate, thorn burst can stop people charging you, and the cleric/oracle spell list is loaded with buffs you can use. The warsighted archetype turns your otherwise non-archery related revelations into flexible combat feats, or spirit guide: battle spirit can give you other buffs.
Hmm a wood oracle with warsighted has potential...a bit worried how strapped on feats it will be. I'll look into the alternate tactics for the druid too thank you
For an archery Druid, Urban Druid with the Nobility Domain for Divine Favor is maybe the strongest option. Personally, I'd probably dip a level of Fighter to get everything running smoothly with feats and proficiency (even at -1 Druid level you still have the same spell levels as Oracle).
Warsighted Wood Oracle is maybe the strongest divine full caster.
One very cool arcane option is Strength Patron Witch Eldritch Knight - you get Divine Favor and Witch spells, while using Hexes for utility purposes (like Flight).
With any of these options, you won't be getting Point-Blank Master. So ways to avoid trouble and/or a good backup weapon plan are a good idea.
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I will mention if you want divine favor to be better than study target you have to take fate's favored.
Level one they are equal bonues but study has better action economy and applies to skills and dcs.
Level 5 study pulls ahead
Level 6 they are equal
Level 9 divine favor pulls ahead
Level 10 equal bonuses
To fix action economy you need to spend one of your very few feats on quicken spell.
With the urban druid you can use thousand faces to become a small race and get a +2 to attack at the cost of 2 damage, a worthwhile trade. You also still get wild shape for the shapeshifting hunter trick.
Action economy often depends on GM style; an archer moving into position should, in theory, be able to cast a buff along with moving, in which case they sacrifice just one standard shot if anything. An archer waiting for approaching enemies should logically be pre-buffing as they approach arrow range. And so on. Of course, many GMs just treat combat as a tactical miniatures game where combatants magically appear in their starting positions. Choosing a character who has some kind of scouting ability can help with pre-buffing preparedness - like a Witch/EK using an Arcane Eye buddy.
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I will second scouting. It is why I like the eagle domain. It's not as good as having arcane eye though.
It can definitely be run different from game to game. That's why I compare build to build under multiple circumstances.
Regardless of the situation the action saves by one build over another (in or out of combat) can be used for something else. Eagle domains overland flight, Aspect of the Falcon, stone discus (even with a move you can have multiple attacks with deadly aim, sneak attack).
Given equal damage I will take a swift action that applies to more stuff over a standard that does not. This changes with fate's favored because the bonus is bigger.
I also like slayer talents because I like to get my build going asap. I'm not patient.
Trying to do something a tad different. I have a inquisitor with a companion, studied strike and divine favor. Honestly he rips things apart. this character won't do as much damage but thinking his spellcasting would make up for it. I'm still thinking archery first but I think the spellcasting should be decent too..
Well, sounding like a broken record, but Strength Patron Witch / Inspired Blade / Eldrich Knight is seriously cool as a bow/rapier switch-hitter. Spellcasting isn't 'full', but it's only one level off of Sorcerer, making the character still a full 9 level caster. With the right gear and buffs, both sword and bow are very strong, and Witch has a fun spell list with classics like Glitterdust and Confusion.
Two feats and you even get your missing caster level back. Not sure if you can spare the feats, though.
Well, sounding like a broken record, but Strength Patron Witch / Inspired Blade / Eldrich Knight is seriously cool as a bow/rapier switch-hitter. Spellcasting isn't 'full', but it's only one level off of Sorcerer, making the character still a full 9 level caster. With the right gear and buffs, both sword and bow are very strong, and Witch has a fun spell list with classics like Glitterdust and Confusion.
Would any levels in Arcane Archer help with this build?
Are ranged warpriests any good?
Ranged warpriests are good. You need extra feats, warpriest has them, and their swift action buffs via fervor fit. The Air blessing is useful once in a long while. They're not full casters though and that was what was requested by the OP.
Ranged warpriests are good. You need extra feats, warpriest has them, and their swift action buffs via fervor fit. The Air blessing is useful once in a long while. They're not full casters though and that was what was requested by the OP.
Yeah, I just realized that. Oops.
Well, sounding like a broken record, but Strength Patron Witch / Inspired Blade / Eldrich Knight is seriously cool as a bow/rapier switch-hitter. Spellcasting isn't 'full', but it's only one level off of Sorcerer, making the character still a full 9 level caster. With the right gear and buffs, both sword and bow are very strong, and Witch has a fun spell list with classics like Glitterdust and Confusion.Would any levels in Arcane Archer help with this build?
I've never been a big Arcane Archer fan, and personally I wouldn't give up more spellcasting levels to switch over to AA. Others might disagree.
What generally puts a Witch/EK above most other gish builds in damage is the +4/+4 you can get from Divine Favor (or even more eventually from Divine Power). The closest thing otherwise for most EK's is maybe +2/+2 from Contageous Zeal (which to be fair can hit a +3/+3 with Imperious Bloodline). Anyways, I can post an example of how I'd build it if you're interested. I created a backstory for a character like that that made him seem kind of like an arcane Ranger, but with turbocharged magic.
@ badbird seems like you always mention the the witch. I'd be worried that the feats would be really stretched. If you have spare time just post a few levels so I can see.
I admit I did lol at the warpriest but 2+ int skills is a deal breaker. Was looking at the occultist too.
Bloodrager is only 4 levels spellcaster. while it sounds like a nice fluid build not what I'm looking for.
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@ badbird seems like you always mention the the witch. I'd be worried that the feats would be really stretched. If you have spare time just post a few levels so I can see.
I admit I did lol at the warpriest but 2+ int skills is a deal breaker. Was looking at the occultist too.
Bloodrager is only 4 levels spellcaster. while it sounds like a nice fluid build not what I'm looking for.
If you play a human warpriest with skilled and cunning at level one your at 4+int skills. It's easier now to make skill characters.
Ocultist have tons of skills.
@scott Wilhelm you will enjoy the grenadier they are versatile and fun. Though I prefer switching between melee a bomb for the versatility the exploding arrow when done right is beautiful.
@ badbird seems like you always mention the the witch. I'd be worried that the feats would be really stretched. If you have spare time just post a few levels so I can see.
I admit I did lol at the warpriest but 2+ int skills is a deal breaker. Was looking at the occultist too.
Bloodrager is only 4 levels spellcaster. while it sounds like a nice fluid build not what I'm looking for.
Well, this is a bit different than the rapier/bow I was talking about, but since it's such a great class combo:
Madoc the Dragon-Warden
Fighter 1/ Strength Patron Ley-Line Guardian Witch 4/ Dragon Disciple 4/ ???
Dual Talent Human: 15/17STR, 15/17DEX, 12CON, 15INT, 8WIS, 9CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack
1F. +Point-Blank Shot / Rapid Shot
2LG. *Conduit Surge*
3LG. *Hex: Cauldron* / Arcane Strike
4LG. [+1DEX]
5LG. *Hex: Feral Speech* / Precise Shot
6DD. [+1AC]
7DD. [+2STR] / +Power Attack / Quick Draw
8DD. [+1STR] / [+1AC]
9DD. [+2STR] / [+1AC] / Manyshot
Notable Equipment: Adaptive composite longbow, greatsword, DEX belt, Deliquescent Gloves, lesser rod of extend spell.
With high strength and Witch buffs, both archery and melee are very effective. There's no Deadly Aim (at least yet), but when archery is doing something like 22 per arrow it's not really that important. Any enemy that decides 'charge the archer' is a valid strategy, or that tries to save itself by making archery difficult, starts eating the kind of greatsword damage a Barbarian would dish out.
Levels beyond 9 can different ways, though more Dragon Disciple isn't really all that useful for this build. Taking Witch up to 8 grants Greater Magic Weapon and Divine Power, which ultimately means much better buffing - Conduit Surge and Greater Magic Weapon is an excellent combo, and Divine Power ends up far, far stronger than Favor. Eldritch Knight is already qualified for, and grants mostly full spellcasting and full BAB with bonus feats.
Warsighted Wood Oracle is maybe the strongest divine full caster.
?
I really like the Wood mystery for making combatants, whether melee or archer (lotta feats though).
Looking up what "Warsighted" is, I can see how it would be handy in a lot of cases. But you lose 4 of your 6 revelations. I guess you can use your general feats on taking revelations, and use the Warsighted features to actually do combat stuff.
Have to really think about this one though. I mean if it is kinda iffy about whether taking this archetype is worth it (to me at least), how can it be the strongest divine caster?
I'm guessing BadBird meant that a Warsighted Wood Oracle is the strongest divine full caster archer - not necessarily that it is the strongest divine overall. (Casting Paragon Surge and choosing Expanded Arcana as your flexible feat can probably make a case for being up there, though)
That being said, I'm fond of both the Warsighted and the Pei Zin Practitioner archetypes for combat-oriented Oracles, depending on what you want to emphasise - flexible feats, or Paladin-esque healing.
There's also the Elemental Imbalance curse in the Elemental Masters Player's Handbook that should be up in a couple of weeks, tops, that really offers some juicy extra spells known to an Oracle - such as Grease, Glitterdust, Flesh to Stone, or Shocking Grasp, Levitate, Chain Lightning, et al. - depending on what element you choose.
Simply put, there's just so many tempting and juicy options for an Oracle, I'm having a hard time coming up with anything else that I'd rather play.
EDIT: Dreamed Secrets is probably not exactly PFS-sanctioned, so I'll scratch my suggestion about that - but playing as a half-elf Oracle assures Paragon Surge access, at least :)
So far I have 3 solid options I need to explore. I need to make the oracle and witch up so I can see how they play out. Right now I currently like the idea of the nature fang archer.. originally I was afraid her would be a mediocre damage dealer compared to my inquisitor.. which he probably will. But I didn't take into account that he would be tweaking the companion a lot more and he could control the field. I need to explore it more though. Sadly between work, family and a new one in the way I only get so much time which is why I appreciate the advice
An easy way to bump up a Nature Fang's damage would be one level of Medium, since they have a nice big straight combat bonus with Champion Spirit.
Actually, as far as full Divine casters go, Shaman with Battle Spirit is probably the most dangerous in the end. They get a Bane ability that's arguably better than the Inquisitor's. Human Shaman gets Divine Favor and can pick up Heroism, Weapon Specialization, and other nice perks too.
The witch idea is pretty nasty but Def seems like it might be a issue
Well, high DEX plus Mage Armor plus a +3 bonus from DD... with a +4 DEX belt, that build as it is at level 9 would have AC like a character wearing +3 full plate (6DEX +3DD +4Mage = 13). The one notable downside is that spell levels are Sorcerer -2.
The rapier/bow build I was describing would be normal Witch -2 with a bit more INT, but it's not quite as damaging since it's DEX-based.
Maybe my favorite Witch gish build is a Synergist Witch that gets to make hilariously painful flying pounce TWF attacks by 9, but there's no way to work archery into that. The pounce and flight comes from merging form with a sylvanshee Improved Familiar, basically becoming a magic beast warrior who attacks with sword, fist, bite and claw.
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I've never been a big Arcane Archer fan, and personally I wouldn't give up more spellcasting levels to switch over to AA.
Indeed. And the interest of wizard-BAB arcanists in actually using bows has always struck me as a bit odd. After all, why shoot d8 arrows out of an expensive bow when you can summon flying monsters who don't cost a thing?
(It also defeats the purposed of staying Invisible so you don't become a target.)
Personally, I prefer wizard over witch for an archer. Specifically, [fighter or ranger or inspired blade swashbuckler]* 1/wizard** 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3***/eldritch knight +8. Start with the Magical Knack (Wizard) trait and take Arcane Armor Training at 3rd level; retrain Arcane Armor Training for Quicken Spell on reaching arcane archer 3 and gaining 5th-level spells (for a Quickened true strike + Imbue Arrow combo). You end up with +17 BAB and spell progression as a 17th level wizard. And Imbue Arrow can be used for a lot of tricks.
*- depending on whether you want the bonus feat, Favored Enemy and the ability to use wands of ranger spells (like cure light wounds, longstrider, and barkskin) without UMD checks, or Fencing Grace to act as a switch-hitter
**- pick an Arcane School other than Universalist (Divination/Foresight for Prescience and the initiative bonus; Evocation/Admixture to swap energy damage on the fly, such as with burning hands when using Imbue Arrow; Transmutation for the +2 enhancement bonus to a physical ability score of your choice; the bonus spell slots for school spells scale as you gain higher level spells, unlike witch hexes and patron spells)
***- Enhance Arrows (Elemental) is actually pretty nice; not a "must have," but you don't actually have to give up anything to get it in the progression above after arcane archer 2 and Imbue Arrow (which is, IMO, the whole point of a caster archer: to cast spells through your ranged weapon)
I've never been a big Arcane Archer fan, and personally I wouldn't give up more spellcasting levels to switch over to AA.Indeed. And the interest of wizard-BAB arcanists in actually using bows has always struck me as a bit odd. After all, why shoot d8 arrows out of an expensive bow when you can summon flying monsters who don't cost a thing?
(It also defeats the purposed of staying Invisible so you don't become a target.)
It's mostly a matter of resource conservation. If you're a good to excellent archer, you can save your spells for more critical situations (instead of using them on riff-raff or minor encounters) and still effectively contribute in every round of combat.
The BAB can be mostly compensated for (high Dex, dipping a full BAB class, heroism, etc.) until qualifying for eldritch knight. As shown above, it is possible for an arcane full caster (using prestige classes) to have a higher BAB than a full divine caster and still reach 9th-level spells.
Basically what dragonchess player said. I'm a paranoid player who tries to conserve spells. Maybe at later levels it isn't as much of a factor but still. I'm Curious about the BAB being the same as the med base.
Honestly I was originally was leaning towards a arcanist with the occultist archetype but I was scared of being reliant on spells.
BAB for DcP's eldritch knight vs. medium BAB goes like this up to 12th level:
1 - 0
1 - 1
2 - 2
2 - 3
3 - 3
3 - 4
4 - 5
5 - 6
6 - 6
7 - 7
8 - 8
9 - 9
Which is all about the same, & then the eldritch knight takes off and slowly leaves medium BAB behind.