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Here's the crux of it.
Lore wardens lost a feat. It's not just that "lore wardens are a finely oiled machine" that other people above have been saying. It's simply that characters are now losing a feat. Effectively, we've been told "push your feat progression back 1 or 2 levels". Now there's a choice involved. For my lore warden, it means that the feat I was looking forward to getting for my level 11 "capstone" no longer exists in my character's playable future.
This is exactly the sort of thing people describing characters as a machine or a watch mean when we make the comparison. You popped that gear out now nothing else will make the whole thing work except that exact gear.
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What Changed: Tribal Scars feat
What's the problem: The feat used to grant +6 HP and some other things, now it just grants other things. I needed that +6 HP to continue my quest of having the most health points. Without it, I go from 499 raging HPs to 493 HPs, with is a paltry sum.
What I'd like to see: Allow only me to keep the old version of this feat, given that I am a powerful Jarl. It will help solidify my position as the leader of my people. Allow everyone else to retrain it for free.
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What Changed: Lore Warden Archetype
What's the problem: Loss of Second Level Bonus Feat Resulting in 2 Seeker level character and several other lower level characters that became invalid post level 2 due to feat dependencies. Change in Skill points. and change in class skills list
What I'd like to see: Grandfather existing Lore Wardens to Field Guide Version. (Character must have been played as a level 2 Lore Warden before GenCon 2017.) or full rebuilds available to all Lore Wardens
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This is exactly the sort of thing people describing characters as a machine or a watch mean when we make the comparison. You popped that gear out now nothing else will make the whole thing work except that exact gear.Here's the crux of it.
Lore wardens lost a feat. It's not just that "lore wardens are a finely oiled machine" that other people above have been saying. It's simply that characters are now losing a feat. Effectively, we've been told "push your feat progression back 1 or 2 levels". Now there's a choice involved. For my lore warden, it means that the feat I was looking forward to getting for my level 11 "capstone" no longer exists in my character's playable future.
The problem with comparing machinery to a character build is that very often if one gear pops out and destroys the machine its probably just a poorly built and running machine.
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The problem with comparing machinery to a character build is that very often if one gear pops out and destroys the machine its probably just a poorly built and running machine.This is exactly the sort of thing people describing characters as a machine or a watch mean when we make the comparison. You popped that gear out now nothing else will make the whole thing work except that exact gear.Here's the crux of it.
Lore wardens lost a feat. It's not just that "lore wardens are a finely oiled machine" that other people above have been saying. It's simply that characters are now losing a feat. Effectively, we've been told "push your feat progression back 1 or 2 levels". Now there's a choice involved. For my lore warden, it means that the feat I was looking forward to getting for my level 11 "capstone" no longer exists in my character's playable future.
right, cause if you remove the one gear that connects the hand to the rest or the watch it was a poorly made watch. If I remove the radiator cap from a car and it overheats it was a poorly built car. Remove the one gear that links the steering wheel to the tires and now you can't steer, but that's just a poorly built car.
Most things made don't have backup systems that are otherwise redundant unless they anticipate likely need of a backup system.
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The problem with comparing machinery to a character build is that very often if one gear pops out and destroys the machine its probably just a poorly built and running machine.
As Thomas pointed out, most machines won't work if you just randomly pull a piece out of them. It's only those machines that have pieces popping out at random on a regular basis that should be called poorly built.
So your analogy isn't saying that these PCs are poorly built. Your analogy pretty much says that Paizo is poorly built, because it keeps randomly popping pieces out of people's PCs.
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The Character: Vad DesChamps, Once-human, now-Oread Fighter (Lore Warden) 5 Low Templar 5
What Changed: Lore Warden Archetype (and minorly, the dusty rose prism ioun stone)
What's the problem: Vad's primary concern in a fight is his beautiful face. Combat Expertise being moved from level 2 to level 6 means either he would need to take more levels of fighter (delaying prestige class levels) or reassign his stats (to qualify with an INT prerequisite). The loss of the 2nd level bonus feat pushes most of his "fight without getting hurt" feat progression (Dodge, Mobility, Pointblank Shot, Shot on the Run, Parting Shot) back a level, and likely costs him the one "flavor" feat he currently has (Celestial Obedience). Considering the Low Templar prestige class requires two other feats (Weapon Focus, Mounted Combat), there isn't really the ability to fit Combat Expertise back in (even if I could re-arrange the ability scores to allow it).
What's a minor annoyance: The change in CMB (from both the base class and the ioun stone) lessens the impact of one of his typical ways to influence the flow of combat- -being generally useful at combat maneuvers (previously +18) gave a wider array of tools than the significantly more narrow Maneuver Mastery ability that the new Lore Warden inherits from Brawler (which is lessened further by the decision to split into a prestige class, missing any upscales in the ability). Vad has never done a huge amount of damage- -he only has 14 STR- -maneuvers were one of his methods to lessen the danger to himself (and others!) They likely will continue to be (+15, +1 more on some maneuver of my choice as per Brawler), just less successfully.
Does a 20 fail where a 23 would succeed?
What I'd like to see: Honestly, Vad (and I) can likely live with the changes. I've never felt that this character has dominated a scenario with it's combat prowess. (Library of the Lion, however, was a breeze because Know: Nobility). Grandfathering would be lovely, but consistency means more to me.
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Also, I hate to keep harping on it, but...
Guide 9.0 still doesn't have any language in it that would allow anything other than either a full rebuild or no rebuild at all.
Eh?
This guide is not able to cover all possibilities with
regard to playtests and errata. Additional topics not
covered in this section are sometimes discussed on forum
posts at paizo.com/pathfndersociety or in Pathfnder
Society blog posts at paizo.com/paizo/blog. Please
consult those sources and apply those changes if any of
your characters are affected by errata or playtest material.
Feats: If a feat changes or is removed from the
dditional Resources list, you have two options: You can switch the old feat for an updated feat of the same
name in another legal source (if available), ignoring any
of a feat's prerequisites that you do not meet, or you can
replace the feat (and any of the old feat’s prerequisite
feats) entirely with another feat for which you meet all
the prerequisites. If any of the feat’s changes directly
reference one or more pieces of equipment you own
(such as the weapon selected for the Weapon Focus feat),
you can sell back that equipment at full market value.
guide page 8-9
There's a whole big page of what you can do if x changes, along with "something weird might come up go see the guide"
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Saying "I dunno, look around on the boards" is not a very good official stance. Among other things, we've been told that forum posts are not legal rules references.This guide is not able to cover all possibilities with
regard to playtests and errata. Additional topics not
covered in this section are sometimes discussed on forum
posts at paizo.com/pathfndersociety or in Pathfnder
Society blog posts at paizo.com/paizo/blog. Please
consult those sources and apply those changes if any of
your characters are affected by errata or playtest material.
They may not be legal rules references, but official posts from Campaign Staff are considered definitive campaign rulings for PFS.
This is an entirely appropriate way to reference unusual circumstances (which is what all of these are).
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Saying "I dunno, look around on the boards" is not a very good official stance. Among other things, we've been told that forum posts are not legal rules references.
You were told that as a forum post....
The guide says that the forum posts ARE a legal source.
The guide explains WHY the forum posts are a legal source.
Trying to argue that the forum post won't work is just making a problem where none exists.
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That's not the immediate concern, though.
It's more than a little annoying when I find, copy, paste right out of the guide for PFS a rule saying, point blank, something might get erratad and have to be dealt with, check the boards only to have you say that there's a contradiction because.. reasons. It smacks of manufactured meladrama. Its unnecessary and unproductive.
The immediate problem is, as of now, there is no guidance/ruling that applies. I am aware of three items dealing with "I don't qualify for X anymore" or "my character doesn't work because archetype Y":
Which is why there's an entire thread devoted to "your changes broke my character, how are we dealing with this" to come up with custom fixes or to make the argument that the easiest option is grandfathering.
I don't want to get into a situation where the rebuild is now mandatory but someone forgot to actually say what to do.
Pencil Eraser. Or delete reprint if you're on one of those new fangled computerized character sheets. If you do it wrong, try again. It's no big deal. I know its an all official and everything game but it's still just a game.
They don't want to get into a siutation where they're locked into either re issuing the guide (which involves the whole layout team) or just being stuck with the surgical hammer as their most nuanced instrument, They need something under their direct control that can respond quickly, and that means the boards.
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They don't want to get into a siutation where they're locked into either re issuing the guide (which involves the whole layout team) or just being stuck with the surgical hammer as their most nuanced instrument, They need something under their direct control that can respond quickly, and that means the boards.
The Guide is a .pdf, isn't it? Wouldn't it be a simple matter of chopping out some of the dated material, not replacing it, and sending it to a printer/re-issuing the .pdf?
Please pardon any naivete on my part.
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What would happen if a large enough portion of the player base just...used old Lore Warden?
So you are saying that there will be a mass mutiny on the leadership of the organized play campaign?
For one, lets assume there are enough Lorewardens in play right now to make this noticeable.
Two, lets assume the subset of lorewarden players who are willing to break the rules is large enough to make things noticeable.
If both those are true (the second can't be true if the first is not, and I highly doubt the first is true, but) then organized play dies. Seriously, the game is predicated on the player base following the rules set forward by the leadership team. And if precedent gets set that the leadership team bows to the will of the player base, no matter how large a portion mutinies, then this will literally become a snowball of death.
If I find someone doing this at a table I'm GMing, I will ask them to play a pregen or leave. I will then notify the local leadership to inform them of a problem player.
