I did not see any feat tree for two-weapon fighting nor any rules for it in the tactics section. Is this no longer a combat option?
There's also the fusillade feat, allowing you to use four identical small arms at once.
There's also the fusillade feat, allowing you to use four identical small arms at once.
The issue, here, is that the only benefit is that you get to use the weapons as an Automatic full attack. When fighting single enemies - which is usually what folks like using TWF for - this has no benefit.
Well, the taclash and mono whip line give you reach as a one handed weapon, so you can hold one non-reactive and one reach weapon and get AoOs from 10 ft. while still utilizing a stronger weapon.
Building fusillade/whirlwind attack into base TWF would have been a nice way of doing it. 2 pistols don't let you shoot 1 guy more times but it lets you spray an area and two swords lets you fight multiple dudes well.
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I did not see any feat tree for two-weapon fighting nor any rules for it in the tactics section. Is this no longer a combat option?
No. It's a very dumbed down/pared down rules system that's unsatisfyingly woolly in places.
wow, was that really necessary?I did not see any feat tree for two-weapon fighting nor any rules for it in the tactics section. Is this no longer a combat option?No. It's a very dumbed down/pared down rules system that unsatisfyingly woolly in places.
They seemed to think so. I'm on-the-fence, obviously.
Multiweapon Fighting in Starfinder is basically reversed compared to Pathfinder.
In Pathfinder, using multiple weapons gives you more attacks, but increases your attack penalty.
In Starfinder, using multiple weapons doesn't give you more attacks, but decreases your attack penalty.
Personally, I like the change, since it means that TWF/MWF is no longer the "must have" choice for certain character types (e.g. anyone with sneak attack or similar damage bonuses). Instead, it becomes another trade-off comparable to other elements of character creation.
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Yeah, I like it too. The cuisinart depiction of TWF is rather absurd.
I found several parts of this post slightly difficult to parse, so I'm just going to re-post it (with changes where I think I did understand, to show you how I interpreted what you said) before I respond, emphasizing in italics where I truly didn't understand you:
It still is limiting for characters. For example. I really want to be able to have an Ysoki operative be able to throw down with two pistols. If there was a small Jones’s {what?} at least to using two weapons, that would be great. But there isn’t, and it effectively makes dual wielding almost useless. It would be great if they added special tests for using two weapons that let you do more with them, like making more attacks or letting you spray an area full of lead or lasers. Instead, there is nothing except for an attack roll penalty and the ability to switch between two weapons. It is a great idea if you are going for a keeper {what?} and pistol set up, but it makes dual wielding pointless. I love the combat system and love the Rome {what?} for combinations, but I would love it if they fleshed out more weapon combinations.
It's not just multiple pistols or multiple one-handed melee that is disappointingly missing, because there is widespread access to having multiple manipulatory limbs - anyone with the necessary strength can acquire cyber-arms, and several races have 4 or 6 manipulatory limbs base - plus, power armor has weapon slots. It would be really nice if there was some way - either base, or bought into via skills and/or feats - to meaningfully use multiple weapons as anything other than providing choice, particularly since WBL means that anyone wielding multiple weapons is an intrinsic, and potentially severe, disadvantage compared to someone monowielding, because they have to pay for multiple good guns instead of just one. You can already see some of this in the Mechanic class, where they have to pay for their own weapon(s) as well as their drone's (and Hover drones pay an exorbitant up-charge!).
I truly don't understand why Multi-Weapon Fighting specifies small arms or operative weapons only. Even if you wanted to avoid exploits based on having lots of limbs, how would it be a problem for the feat to work on non-operative one-handed weapons (basic melee, advanced melee, grenades, nets, and shurikens)?
For example, the following feats are completely in-line with Starfinder's design philosophy, found both in the Starship Combat's rules for linking weapons, and how many firearms increase their damage simply by increasing their usage:
Multiple Weapon Fighting: When you make a full attack with multiple weapons, reduce the penalty for making a full attack by the number of weapons used in the attack.
Lightning Combat Maneuver: Choose one combat maneuver (bull rush, dirty trick, disarm, grapple, reposition, sunder, or trip). You may perform that combat maneuver as an attack, rather than as a standard action (reposition always resolves as though you used a standard action, not a full, when you use an attack to deliver it). When performed as part of a full attack, all of the usual modifiers apply.
Lightning Suppression: You may perform Covering Fire and Harrying Fire as attack actions, rather than standard actions. When performed as part of a full attack, all of the usual modifiers apply.
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You can already see some of this in the Mechanic class, where they have to pay for their own weapon(s) as well as their drone's (and Hover drones pay an exorbitant up-charge!).
This isn't true though. Errata has already said drones always use weapons that are designed for small/medium creatures.
While I like your two Lightning feats, the updated multi-weapon option is crazy. Allowing a 4 armed race to full attack with pistols at no penalty is nuts.
Something I would like to see would be
"Double Shot"
Prereq: Weapon Specialization
When peerforming a standard action attack while wielding two or more small arms or operative weapons you may treat your specialization bonus as equal to your level instead of half level.
You can already see some of this in the Mechanic class, where they have to pay for their own weapon(s) as well as their drone's (and Hover drones pay an exorbitant up-charge!).This isn't true though. Errata has already said drones always use weapons that are designed for small/medium creatures.
While I like your two Lightning feats, the updated multi-weapon option is crazy. Allowing a 4 armed race to full attack with pistols at no penalty is nuts.
Something I would like to see would be
"Double Shot"
Prereq: Weapon Specialization
When peerforming a standard action attack while wielding two or more small arms or operative weapons you may treat your specialization bonus as equal to your level instead of half level.
Good call, I missed the errata.
It looks nuts, but try mathing out it while assuming WBL is being obeyed - the sheer cost in credits means it's not OP.
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Also after checking a few different levels, it is fairly reasonable (WBL wise) to have 4 identical small arms 2 levels below yours while still maintaining at level light armor. And in a "real game play" sense, fighting against humanoid opponents will likely make it trivially easy to get a matched set of decent guns. My party sold off nearly a dozen Azimuth laser pistols during the first part of Dead Suns for example.
Also after checking a few different levels, it is fairly reasonable (WBL wise) to have 4 identical small arms 2 levels below yours while still maintaining at level light armor. And in a "real game play" sense, fighting against humanoid opponents will likely make it trivially easy to get a matched set of decent guns. My party sold off nearly a dozen Azimuth laser pistols during the first part of Dead Suns for example.
Sure the cost looks nuts if you are using all 4 weapons as top of the line. Instead, (assuming each attack has to be made with a different weapon, which the wording doesn't clearly state) 2 decent pistols, and keep two level 1s around for the to hit bonus
So, base MWF already lets you dual wield Azimuth Laser Pistols to Full Attack at -3 - it's basically Weapon Focus, only sharply worse. There's no change there. Until the Operative is Level 8, there's no actual difference, by which point, using an Azimuth Laser Pistol will sharply drop your damage output.
At L8, Trick Attack is worth 4d8 (18) damage, up to 5d8 (22.5) at 9 and 6d8 (27) at 12 and 7d8 (31.5) at 13. That means at no point do you have the wealth to remotely make it worth it - at level 8 you literally can't afford even 2 elite semi-auto pistols, and no other pistol does at least 9 damage, which is what you have to have at L8 to compete with Trick Shot, even with no penalty to the hit roll on a full attack. This trend continues through level 13 - level 13 is where it finally gets interesting, because now Full Attack is four shots, and has a shot at competing with Trick attack.
For L13+, my new wording of the feat is interesting, but it's supposed to be, because it's supposed to be a FEAT - it has to compete with Weapon Focus, which is a +2 to hit at all times by that point, and we've already decided that this feat's bonus a) only applies during a Full Attack (meaning you not only give up Trick Shot damage, you need at least two shots to hit to apply your debilitation, which is typically Bleeding for these analyses, and that's after buying that ability at L14) and b) forces you to buy, carry, and supply with ammo additional guns, both of which are major downsides. MWF has to provide at least a +3 to be as good - I don't think a +4 is out of the question, given how WBL works.
May I ask at what specific levels you did the math out? I'd be interested to do the math out as well for those levels - if I'm missing something, I'm not seeing it, and I'd like to see it. Obviously, some assumptions have to be made, like armor, since I'm counting on WBL to maintain balance.
It would still be nice to have dual weapon feet’s, not just for operatives but for all classes. To balance, simply make the weapons less accurate or more than that, if they are tests, you have to choose dual wielding tests rather than other usful skills.
Tests?
Weapon focus and multi weapon fighting stack, so...
Weapon focus and multi weapon fighting stack, so...
So do other feats you can take, like Far Shot. I stand by my claim that MWF is deeply underwhelming, needlessly so, and unnecessarily sidelines otherwise interesting builds, like a Solarian whose other weapon is a longsword.
Also with your op feat, everyone would play skittermanders mechanics with 2 cybernetic arms carrying 8 guns and their drones hauling mass ammo spamming fusillade every round for a +8 to hit everything at once
You didn't read the feat at all, did you? This would not work.
I agree that TWF isn't really well supported by Starfinder mechanics...but I'm also not upset by that. I'm not sure that it should be well supported, since generally speaking people don't wield two weapons at once, including firearms.
Also, with the current system adding additional attacks would be far too powerful in Starfinder, but attack bonuses are always going to seem underwhelming when people are comparing it to what TWF allowed in Pathfinder.
I'm not sure there is much that could balance out having extra attacks, the whole game is balanced around having two attacks per round, except classes which get additional attacks as part of their class features (and these same classes would have the potential to use whatever ability you're scheming up).
I guess something you could try (if you really intend on doing it) is to require one-handed weapons only and for an extra attack your full attack penalty is -6 to all attacks, instead of -4.
Since for ranged attacks that would exclude longarms or heavy arms, it would mean smaller damage dice pools and only 1/2 weapon spec damage (per attack). Not sure exactly how that would compare to the damage potential of a standard full attack with longarms, maybe somebody can do the math.
Just going to say it... I was disappointed that there was literally no benefit to playing the Kasatha race and being able to dual wield swords like I've seen in some art. I wanted my 2 laser-chainsaw-swords, but instead I can use a single dagger to make just as many attacks.
I wasn't trying to optimize the combat by holding a whip, a pistol, a sword, and a stun baton. I just wanted to get the extra damage per round and cool matching weapons... maybe even the ability to defend myself slightly better because my character was able to focus on more than one opponent at a time.
Nope, multiweapon fighting only works with operative weapons and small arms. It's a shame really.
A possible way to handle it might have been to say that when you are already making a full attack with two or more weapons, you can take an additional -2 penalty on all attacks in your full attack action to make a third attack. Which could be one of your two weapons if you are a human etc, or a third weapon if you have three or more limbs.
TWF has been written out of the rules... completely...
Want to wield 2 guns and rapid-fire enemies? Well, suck it up, you can't... Using 2 swords? Nope, sorry...
All that because of the "one attack as a standard action" and the "two attacks as a full action" rules, and the latter specifies that it can be with the same or 2 different weapons. There is absolutely no way to make 2 attacks as a standard action and an extra attack as a full action. Kasathas and Skittermanders would be terrifying if they could wield as many weapons as they have arms. 4 arms? 4 pistols, 4 shots as a standard action. Even with a stacking penalty, it wouldn't break the game.
I know that the soldier, the operative and the solarian can make extra weapons, but it's not the actual TWF mecanic; it's about iterative attacks. A solarian can't even manifest 2 solar weapons and TWF the snot out of targets.
Wanna balance it? Have a feat that allows you to make an extra attack as either a standard or full action, as long as it's with a different weapon, with a -2 penalty on each attack. Pick that same feat again if you can wield one more weapon per limb, but stack another -2 to your roll.
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There is no NEED for two weapon fighting, really. Weapon damage scales upward as levels go up, and combat classes have their own methods of increasing damage (Mechanics get Overcharge, Operatives get Trick Attack, Soldiers and Solarians get their awesome skills).
Plus, any class can take feats to become more powerful (using more arms, even). My Ryphorian Mystic took Weapon Proficiency (Longarms) and Weapon Focus (Longarms) and will grab Versatile Specialization at 3rd level so that she will get her full Specialization bonus with higher-damage weapons when not casting.
Having two or more weapons is still useful, though.
For example, Pistol & Operative Weapon - Still able to use range attacks and make AoO, using Dex for everything.
4-armed characters can have plenty of fun using a rifle, a sword, and a taclash (for reach). Skittermanders can just pack any combination of energy and kinetic attacks for any situation (high KAC? Draw a laser? Another guy has Fire Resistance? Draw an autopistol. Want to make an AoO? Pull a doshko. Need a big gun? Pull that plasma cannon. And you can keep all of them in-hand the entire fight).
And note that there are no more off-hand penalties. Everybody is ambidextrous now.
Really, the game was not built for bonkers dual wielding. There are benefits to it already and feats you can take to make it better. It's fine. Good, even.
The Cyber Mage
Your double shot feat, I like it but would add that both weapons must be used (aka separate attack rolls) to get the bonus. So while it won't stack with trick attacks or similar abilities, it would with normal multiple attack actions.
There is no NEED for two weapon fighting, really. Weapon damage scales upward as levels go up, and combat classes have their own methods of increasing damage (Mechanics get Overcharge, Operatives get Trick Attack, Soldiers and Solarians get their awesome skills).
Here's the catch: everyone can do it, while TWF was supposed to be a special "skill".
Plus, any class can take feats to become more powerful (using more arms, even). My Ryphorian Mystic took Weapon Proficiency (Longarms) and Weapon Focus (Longarms) and will grab Versatile Specialization at 3rd level so that she will get her full Specialization bonus with higher-damage weapons when not casting.
I still need specific classes to get more attacks.
Having two or more weapons is still useful, though.
For example, Pistol & Operative Weapon - Still able to use range attacks and make AoO, using Dex for everything.
Useful separately, NOT simultaneously.
4-armed characters can have plenty of fun using a rifle, a sword, and a taclash (for reach). Skittermanders can just pack any combination of energy and kinetic attacks for any situation (high KAC? Draw a laser? Another guy has Fire Resistance? Draw an autopistol. Want to make an AoO? Pull a doshko. Need a big gun? Pull that plasma cannon. And you can keep all of them in-hand the entire fight).
Read my previous statement. The point is not to have a swiss-army knife-like character. It's to have that Skittermander pull out 6 pistols and pelting whoever laughed at his appearance with 6 shots, like Stitch.
And note that there are no more off-hand penalties. Everybody is ambidextrous now.
You still cannot use one weapon per limb as a full-attack action, with or without penalty.
Really, the game was not built for bonkers dual wielding. There are benefits to it already and feats you can take to make it better. It's fine. Good, even.
Really, where's the feat or skill (not a class feature) where I can whip 4 starknives as a Kasatha and shoot or slash the same target 4 times? One thing to note: the starknife isn't an operative weapon. Also, for ranged weapons, good luck keeping track of 4 or 6 cartridges as well as buying ammo for each of them, versus having a single weapon to take care of. There's the balance right here.
Read my previous statement. The point is not to have a swiss-army knife-like character. It's to have that Skittermander pull out 6 pistols and pelting whoever laughed at his appearance with 6 shots, like Stitch.
How do you plan to do that, without said character doing 6x as much damage as the guy with one single gun?
Read my previous statement. The point is not to have a swiss-army knife-like character. It's to have that Skittermander pull out 6 pistols and pelting whoever laughed at his appearance with 6 shots, like Stitch.How do you plan to do that, without said character doing 6x as much damage as the guy with one single gun?
That's the problem: there is no "multi-weapon fighting" feat.
That's the problem: there is no "multi-weapon fighting" feat.Read my previous statement. The point is not to have a swiss-army knife-like character. It's to have that Skittermander pull out 6 pistols and pelting whoever laughed at his appearance with 6 shots, like Stitch.How do you plan to do that, without said character doing 6x as much damage as the guy with one single gun?
I know. I'm happy for that.
That's my question. How do you think you could make a feat like "multiweapon fighting" without the guy with 6+ arms doing 6x as much damage as the guy with one weapon?
Because I suppose you realize how unbalanced it would be if multiweapon fighting just gave you 6x the regular damage, don't you?
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Because I suppose you realize how unbalanced it would be if multiweapon fighting just gave you 6x the regular damage, don't you?
NO ONE IS GOING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT BEING TOO POWERFUL!
Where did a lot of guys get the dumb idea that players HATE being powerful? Have you seen a plyer voluntarily handicapping himself because he thought he was too strong? No!
Unbalanced for the player? Yes, because the player is totally going to complain about it ¬_¬;
Unbalanced for the GM? If he knows about a player's race, surely that he thought a little bit ahead for these.
Unbalanced for the rules? There's already a penalty for using more than one attack per round, there isn't going to be worth it if you end up with -12 on your attack roll, just so you can shoot 6 times. Back in Pathfinder, I managed to have the Ninja throw 10 shurikens... at an absurd penalty that none would likely hit the target.
Look, pistols and such need ammo, and it doesn't come for free, not to mention that it will go down fast in any encounter. If you're having trouble keeping up with 1 pistol, imagine 6...