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Inspired by Mashallah’s thread, I thought it would be interesting to see people’s takes on the Solarian. Mashallah makes some interesting remarks here, but they’re kind of lost amidst discussions of other parts of the book. So here’s a separate thread to pull together discussion of the Solarian in particular.
Here’s my take: The Solarian is basically Starfinder’s Unchained Monk. It’s a full BAB class with good HP (same as the Soldier) and two good saves. It’s a lightly armored melee-focused fighter who gets special class abilities that allow them to make more (and more accurate) attacks when full-attacking. And it gets the analog of ki powers (revelations) every other level, several of which are very similar to ki powers available to the monk.
A couple key questions, and my initial take on the answers:
Question: Why choose to be a Solarian over a melee-focused Soldier?
Answer: If you want to be the most effective melee-focused combatant you can be, you probably shouldn’t be a Solarian. The Soldier is better. But if you want to be a pretty good melee-focused combatant, with a bit more skill-focus, more out of combat utility powers, and some different kinds of combat oriented powers, the Solarian might be up your alley.
Question: What excites you about the class?
Answer: It’s flavor is awesome. And some of the powers you can pick seem decent and pretty fun.
For example, Radiation (available at 2nd) allows you to kick in an aura that potentially sickens any creatures that get near you; a nice debuff for a melee combatant.
For another example, Gravity Surge (available at 6th) lets you perform a trip or disarm maneuver (with a bonus) against a creature within 30’, with a couple of minor (but neat) effects if you succeed.
For a third example, Stealth Warp (available at 10th) offers a nice out-of-combat stealth bonus, and helps you perform some potentially neat in-combat disappearing tricks.
Question: What dissapoints you about the class?
Answer: As one might expect, there’s fair amount of variation in how attractive the various revelations you can choose from are, but (in my opinion) the majority of them are at least interesting options. That said, there are two classes of revelations that stand out as being disappointingly weak (though these are just first impressions, that might change after playing for a while).
First, there are a couple revelations that allow you to use gravity-based powers to increase your mobility. This is really important for a melee-focused fighter, since to really shine you need to be able to get next to your opponents. And, like the mobility-increasing powers available to the Unchained Monk, the flavor of these abilities is pretty cool and cinematic. Unfortunately, like the mobility-increasing powers available to the Unchained Monk, the Solarian’s mobility powers seem pretty underwhelming.
For example: the best mobility-boosting power they can choose to get (at 6th level) is Defy Gravity, which allows them to spend a move action to fly up to their speed… but after that, they fall if they’re not on solid ground. So if you need to get close to a flying opponent to unleash the melee full attacks which are your specialty you’re out of luck. First, you need to use a move action to get close to them, and so can’t full attack. Second, you immediately fall if you’re not on solid ground, so (as I read it) you won’t even get the chance to attack them once. And all of this is moot if the flying opponent is more than your speed (say 30’) above you.
Now, at 12th level, the ability improves, and allows you to use both your move and standard actions to effectively fly up to double your speed… after which you fall if you’re not on solid ground. Again, if you want to make your melee full attack, you’re out of luck: you’ve used up all of your actions to get near them (assuming they’re within twice your speed, say 60’ of you), and after doing so you don’t have any actions left to attack with, and fall.
As a powerful master of the elemental force of gravity, especially one focused on making melee full attacks, it seems that they should be able to get something better than this — say, the ability to actually fly up to your opponent. And since any Solarian worth their salt is going to need to be able to do this, they’ll have to obtain some other means of actually flying, making these revelations poor choices.
Second, there are several “tricks-in-combat”-style revelations (e.g., Flare, Crush, etc) that seem hard to justify choosing. Roughly speaking, these abilities require you to trade an action of yours in order to have a chance of inflicting a minor disappoints on one of your opponents, usually for 1-round. (And if they last longer than that, they generally allow another save each turn, and require you to continue spending actions to keep them debuffed.) It’s hard to imagine many cases where these abilities are worth it (perhaps against a big-bad boss who happens to have really bad saves?). And since these abilities require you to spend a precious revelation to acquire, I suspect these are options that virtually no one will choose.
(Though to be fair, perhaps this reflects my lack of familiarity with the system. If, for example, opponents tend to be really hard to hit, and so attacking with your action probably won’t do much, using one of these abilities might be something that it’s worth spending your standard action on.)
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Hmm. I'm not really sure how useful this is. Keep in mind most of us don't have the pdf, so the perspective is very different, but this doesn't tell me much. The basics are already known (bab, saves, armor) and the idea that a class that has an analogue to ki powers/hexes has some good ones and some stinkers isn't surprising. But it also isn't informative, and a lot of time on the temporary fly power (which is unsurprising as PF has powers just like it), doesn't give any feel for the class, just a single disappointing power.
I'm also confused, because you complain about tricks-in-combat powers being bad, but list three tricks-in-combat (well, two and the sicken aura) powers as things that excite you.
Sooo... can we build Solarians as Jedi? ^^
Hmm. I'm not really sure how useful this is. Keep in mind most of us don't have the pdf, so the perspective is very different, but this doesn't tell me much. The basics are already known (bab, saves, armor) and the idea that a class that has an analogue to ki powers/hexes has some good ones and some stinkers isn't surprising. But it also isn't informative, and a lot of time on the temporary fly power (which is unsurprising as PF has powers just like it), doesn't give any feel for the class, just a single disappointing power.
Yeah, given the constraints on who much info we're supposed to reveal, I wasn't sure whether it would be kosher to lay out more extensive details... :/
I'm also confused, because you complain about tricks-in-combat powers being bad, but list three tricks-in-combat (well, two and the sicken aura) powers as things that excite you.
Yeah, the "there are several “tricks-in-combat”-style revelations that seem hard to justify choosing" wasn't intended to refer to all tricks-in-combat-style revelations, just, you know, several of them (that happen to be similar in structure).
As you note, there certainly are several neat combat-trick-style revelations which I think are worth taking, like the ones I mentioned. Sorry if that was misleading!
Sooo... can we build Solarians as Jedi? ^^
With the right choices of revelations, yes you can!
You're good at melee combat, and you can fight with your own self-generated light saber. You can do the kinds of superhuman Jedi jumps. You can lift (light) objects, and lift creatures into the air and hold them immobile. You can trip or disarm opponents from a distance. You can charm people into doing things without them realizing it (if you're successful -- "those aren't the droids you're looking for"). And in the right circumstances, you can reflect ranged attacks back at people.
I think that's pretty much all of the canonical Jedi powers. It'll take you 5 or 6 revelations to do all of those things (so you'll need to be 10 or 12th level). But you can do it!
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The other thread laments at how poor this class is; in fact, I think she ranked it second to last. But, I have to say, I really like the flavor of the class, and that alone makes the class appealing to me.
Yes, it's probably beneath the power curve of some other classes, generally, but I don't think it's a pushover. And, as with so many other things in RPGs generally, player choice (both during character creation and advancement, and during play) also will have a tremendous impact.
I like it, and a Lashunta Solarion will be my first character. I'm itching to try it out!
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Question: Why choose to be a Solarian over a melee-focused Soldier?
Answer: If you want to be the most effective melee-focused combatant you can be, you probably shouldn’t be a Solarian. The Soldier is better. But if you want to be a pretty good melee-focused combatant, with a bit more skill-focus, more out of combat utility powers, and some different kinds of combat oriented powers, the Solarian might be up your alley.
Seeing as how the Soldier's whole thing is about killing the f%&@ out of stuff with weapons I'm not bothered that the Solarion isn't better at that aspect. In fact, I'd actually be bothered if it was. It's everything else about the class that intrigues me.
Have to wait and comment on the abilities since I don't have my PDF yet.
There's nothing keeping later releases from giving them a power boost too.
The other thread laments at how poor this class is; in fact, I think she ranked it second to last. But, I have to say, I really like the flavor of the class, and that alone makes the class appealing to me.
Yeah, I really like the flavor of the Solarion too. They really lend themselves to cinematic moments!
As far as comparing classes goes, some of the other classes look so good (especially relative what we're used to coming from Pathfinder) that it's hard to compete.
E.g., the Solarian looks like it's about on par with the Unchained Monk, but with different dressing. So about what you'd expect, coming from Pathfinder.
Whereas the Operative looks much better than the Unchained Rogue, and vastly better than the core Rogue. Which blows your mind, coming from Pathfinder.
For example, I believe the Operative can get more attacks off with a full attack than any other class (including the Soldier or Solarion). And they get their cool trick attack options as another thing they can do. And they get a boat-load of great out of combat/skill-boosting abilities and tricks to choose from. It's pretty amazing.
First, you need to use a move action to get close to them, and so can’t full attack. Second, you immediately fall if you’re not on solid ground, so (as I read it) you won’t even get the chance to attack them once.
Why wouldn't you get to attack?
Jump > Slash > Fall
Seeing as how the Soldier's whole thing is about killing the f&*& out of stuff with weapons I'm not bothered that the Solarion isn't better at that aspect. In fact, I'd actually be bothered if it was.
Yeah, I agree. I'm glad they're not quite as good in combat as a Soldier. If they were, then the Soldier would be right where the core Fighter was. And nobody wants that!
There's nothing keeping later releases from giving them a power boost too.
Yeah, I'm especially hoping some flight abilities will get added in. Especially because it's such a good fit with the "master of gravity" theme.
I'm a *little* worried that they've boxed themselves out of that option, by adding in abilities that do strictly less, even at relatively high levels... but perhaps they'll add a revelation which requires one of the weaker mobility revelations as a pre-req, and allows them to fly? Crossing my fingers!
First, you need to use a move action to get close to them, and so can’t full attack. Second, you immediately fall if you’re not on solid ground, so (as I read it) you won’t even get the chance to attack them once.Why wouldn't you get to attack?
Jump > Slash > Fall
Yeah, it's not totally obvious me how you're supposed to adjudicate this (which is why I had the "as I read it" hedge).
What made me think you wouldn't get the attack is how the 12th level boost is worded (which seems to suggest that it allows you to not immediately fall after using the ability once, so that you can use the ability again if you want). But I'm not at all sure this is the right reading.
EDIT: But you won't get to use your special full attack boosts in any case, which is a bummer.
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It's a mixed bag... there's some potentially good stuff in there, and there's some laughably bad stuff in there.
Graviton has some nice looking revelations, photon... far less so. To the extent that should I ever feel masochistic enough to play one, I'd probably get stuck with the DisRev tax.
But even then, the actions needed to kick stuff in... I'm not convinced of the circumstances where using it would be worth the opportunity cost.
I guess it's why I'm disappointed with it; there's the seed of a great class there, it just feels like it's been deliberately handled in the worst possible way.
Solar Weapon? Worse than a regular weapon
Stellar Mode? Clunky
Disproportionate Revelations? Needlessly, pettily punitive
Flashing Strikes? Absolutely laughable. As in, I'm pretty sure the designer was laughing at the players who're getting this as a class feature.
Solarian's Onslaught? Good... but 2 levels later than Soldiers get their 3rd attack
Plasma Sheath? Bit of a damage boost, looks like it's supposed to be a bedrock of Photonic damage output... but turns all your damage to fire? Hard to predict if that's still going to be the most commonly resisted/denied damage type, but this feels like something that's going to fail you often.
Dark Matter seems just outright great. Move action rather than standard, so you can still attack and switch it on.
Defy Gravity? Good, but clunky, and let down by not being able to carry over round to round. You always have to land at the end of your turn, so it's more jumping than flying.
Best Bit: having a thing where the enemy is required to be able to react 'faster than the speed of light' to get a reaction. One of the rare cases where the fluff of a thing actually matches the mechanics (which is a problem streaked throughout this class and others: flavour text which promises much, which the system then routinely fails to deliver).
Flashing frickin' Strikes, man...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
First, you need to use a move action to get close to them, and so can’t full attack. Second, you immediately fall if you’re not on solid ground, so (as I read it) you won’t even get the chance to attack them once.Why wouldn't you get to attack?
Jump > Slash > Fall
Systems like D&D and Pathfinder have never been clear enough on when exactly you fall. Technically, it says you fall as soon as you end your move action without support, and the rules don't say how long you spend falling or how long you hang in the air (if at all). So while one GM might say you can get a standard action before you fall out of range of the target, but others will go with a less open interpretation and say that falling immediately means you fall immediately, and can't take your standard action until you're on the ground.
I've been waiting for an official clarification on this for years now.
Hmm, even if you're falling it's just that, falling, not being teleported instantly to the ground, charging in reverse if you may :3, so I'd say you'd still get your attack since there's no stated time frame for Standard Actions and it's also still your turn.
Hmm, I know Charging works differently in Starfinder, can you combine it and the power?
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so I'd say you'd still get your attackYou might, but again, other people might say differently, because it's not clear in the rules exactly what happens. That's why I want an official clarification.
*nods*
I can understand.
Hmm, since this is something that applies to both Pathfinder and Starfinder if we started a FAQ thread for it would it cover both?...
I think it's important to know that this is a Star Monk! Not a Kineticist.
In that sense, the relevations make a lot of sense. They're all Su as well, and not Sp. So they do not provoke.
I for one don't mind the "in combat tricks" like Gravity Hold at all. Very flavorful and can be extremely useful.
Although the combat use of Gravity Hold falls in the camp of abilities I don't think will see much play, Gravity Hold comes with some cool out of combat utility (psychokinetic hand at will!), which makes it much better than (say) Flare or Crush.
So I'm with you w.r.t. being OK with Gravity Hold.
So who's better at acrobatic checks the Operative or the Solarion?
I mean I know the Solarion can jump higher or whatever with their power but who can avoid AO's and walk across tight ropes better etc.
I'm guessing the Operative by a long shot from what I've heard.
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Operative by a long shot. Helps that Dex is primary for them but tertiary at best for Solarian.
Thanks.
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Flashing Strikes? Absolutely laughable. As in, I'm pretty sure the designer was laughing at the players who're getting this as a class feature.
Yeah, so one thing I’ve noticed in general in Starfinder is that they’re much more stingy with bonuses to hit and bonuses against enemies hitting (i.e., to armor class) than they are in Pathfinder. (They may be following 5e here, and doing this to keep the math a bit more under control.)
As a rule of thumb, it seems like most bonuses to hit and/or AC are about half of what they would be in Pathfinder. Judged by that standard, a lot of the class bonuses make more sense.
For example:
—The armor-specialized Solarion ends up with a +2 bonus to AC at level 20. That sounds very weak by Pathfinder standards. But if we double it, it sounds about right (by Pathfinder standards); comparable to a Monk’s AC bonus at level 20.
—The Solarion’s Flashing Strikes ability adds a +1 bonus to hit when full attacking, which sounds very weak by Pathfinder standards. But if we double it, it sounds about right (by Pathfinder standards).
—The Envoy’s Get ‘Em ability adds a +1 morale bonus to attacks against a given enemy, which sounds very weak by Pathfinder standards. But if we double it, it sounds about right (by Pathfinder standards).
Anyway, I think that’s one of the reasons some of the Starfinder class abilities strike those of us coming from Pathfinder as so underwhelming.
The armour specialised solarian is very weak; you're better off picking up heavy armour proficiency.
+2 only with melee weapons and only on a full attack would be very weak for pathfinder. The closest thing I can think of is two-weapon warrior's Weapon Training replacement, which at least scales and adds to damage (and is picked up earlier).
Envoy is also pretty bad.
They're definitely more stingy with bonuses, but even in that context this is bad. Soldier can pick up +1 to hit with all laser weapons 4 levels earlier, and isn't restricted to only getting that bonus on a full attack with only laser weapons.
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The armour specialised solarian is very weak; you're better off picking up heavy armour proficiency.
+2 only with melee weapons and only on a full attack would be very weak for pathfinder. The closest thing I can think of is two-weapon warrior's Weapon Training replacement, which at least scales and adds to damage (and is picked up earlier).
Envoy is also pretty bad.
They're definitely more stingy with bonuses, but even in that context this is bad. Soldier can pick up +1 to hit with all laser weapons 4 levels earlier, and isn't restricted to only getting that bonus on a full attack with only laser weapons.
I guess I think a +2 bonus to hit for Monk's while Flurrying in melee (an instance of this) would be a pretty nice Monk boost in the context Pathfinder. So maybe we our Pathfinder assessments are a bit different (which is fine).
And I agree that the Soldier boost looks good by comparison; but as the class that's supposed to be most effective in combat, I don't take that (by itself) to be a reason to think the Solarion is bad. (That's not to say it is or isn't bad, just that this comparative fact by itself doesn't make that case.)
Anyway, playing some games will clarify things, I'm sure. But my main pre-play concerns regarding the Solarian (and Envoy) aren't worries about how big the bonuses they get/give are.
(For example, as I think someone -- maybe you? -- pointed out in the other thread, it seems very strange that the Envoy, unlike all the other classes, doesn't get any new class abilities unlocked past level 8. And so the higher-powered abilities that the other classes get just don't show up for the Envoy. For me, that's a bigger concern.)
The solarian looks awesome, can't wait to play it.
Except, you know, for that dead level at level 5.
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I don't think having a class that's 'supposed to be the most effective in combat' is a good excuse for making another combat focused class substandard to protect that design goal (and really, Solarian's don't get enough in the way of out-of-combat utility to make up for the shortcoming. I'm not even convinced your average Solarian is going to have more non-combat use to a party than your average Soldier).
If out of combat stuff is your goal, you're better off with something else.
If combat stuff is your goal, you're better off with a Soldier.
And if a mix of combat stuff and non-combat stuff is what you're looking for... this isn't the choice for you either.
So ultimately.... what's the point in the class? Flavour is pretty much all it has going for it.
I need to head to bed, but if you're game I'd be really interested in seeing your first-impressions build so far as revelations go.
Which ones would you choose at which levels?
So I read that it can't use lighting like a Sith but uses fire instead. That's definitely a change I will make in a homebrew.
Also, can you use a weapon and Solarian weapon at the same time? Like have a Katana covered in a Solarian blade?
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So I read that it can't use lighting like a Sith but uses fire instead. That's definitely a change I will make in a homebrew.[tangent] I always wanted some different Force users. Sith throw lightning a lot. Jedi throw stuff telekinetically a lot. A different Force using group that manifests their Force attacks as fire, or light, perhaps seeing the stars as seething cauldrons of the Force, would be neat.
Flavorwise, Solarians seem pretty tied to sun-related forces (fire, light, gravity), but using the chassis to create warriors who channel vibrations and sound, or electricity, or negative energy, certainly seems like a fun tweak.
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Yeah, that's like saying the Fighter should be better than the Barbarian or Ranger because it's meant to be "the best at combat".
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Or saying like "Fighters are specialized in weapons and feats, of course they only have +2 int per level unlike Barbarians who live in wilds and stuff so of course they have +4" :D
I personally nowadays houserule that fighters also have +4 per level since it doesn't make sense that fighter is only pure martial that gets +2 per level. I didn't touch any of +2 martials with spellcasting though since spell casting can replace skill ranks pretty easily most of the time.
Given that we don't have the alien archive it is not really possible to compare fairly combat capabilities.
Except aren't we supposed to be able to just grab a PF monster change it's touch AC into EAC and put it against your players?
Can Solarions make 2 solar weapons at some point, or are the only limited to 1?
Can Solarions make 2 solar weapons at some point, or are the only limited to 1?Since there is no two weapon fighting, there would be no point in making more than one weapon.
I remember hearing that there was a feat you could take that made full-attacks more accurate if you used multiple weapons to make them.
Can Solarions make 2 solar weapons at some point, or are the only limited to 1?Since there is no two weapon fighting, there would be no point in making more than one weapon.
Can they make them out of different modes or weapon types, like 1 supernova sword, 1 black hole axe in case you need to switch damage types on the fly?
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I keep forgetting to say so but I like the new alias rysky.
I'm waiting on more star finder avatars before I finish my starfinder persona.
Thankies! ^w^
And yeah I can't wait for new avatars either.
There's nothing keeping later releases from giving them a power boost too.
This. The Core Rulebooks are always going to have the most conservative build of any thing and everything. But let's face it, a Class with this much flavor in is going to get it's own g*+ d#+n splat book or something. At that point, expect to get a bunch of alternate class features, new Revelations, class specific items, or rule clarifications.
I like this thread better so far! I need this book. so am I right in thinking that they keep comparing the solarions weapon with a two hander even though its 1 handed and its still seems to be about even?(1-4 points of damage is not significantly typically.) is the armor and weapon basically on par with gear you could get at the level?
This doesn't worry me too much I can spend my money on other things. I would assume.
There's nothing keeping later releases from giving them a power boost too.This. The Core Rulebooks are always going to have the most conservative build of any thing and everything. But let's face it, a Class with this much flavor in is going to get it's own g++ d@!n splat book or something. At that point, expect to get a bunch of alternate class features, new Revelations, class specific items, or rule clarifications.
There won't be any "later releases" for a long while still. For the foreseeable future the only new rules we will see will be small numbers of new options or items bundled in the backs of adventure paths, not large scale splatbooks.
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There won't be any "later releases" for a long while still. For the foreseeable future the only new rules we will see will be small numbers of new options or items bundled in the backs of adventure paths, not large scale splatbooks.There's nothing keeping later releases from giving them a power boost too.This. The Core Rulebooks are always going to have the most conservative build of any thing and everything. But let's face it, a Class with this much flavor in is going to get it's own g++ d@!n splat book or something. At that point, expect to get a bunch of alternate class features, new Revelations, class specific items, or rule clarifications.
Gamers, like farmers, are "next harvest" kinds of people.
Can you use a Melee weapon and Solarian weapon at the same time? Like have a Katana covered in a Solar blade?
Can you use a Melee weapon and Solarian weapon at the same time? Like have a Katana covered in a Solar blade?
If I understand your question correctly: you can have a Solar Weapon in one hand and another weapon in another hand. You can't use Solar Weapon to augment an existing weapon.
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I need to head to bed, but if you're game I'd be really interested in seeing your first-impressions build so far as revelations go.
Which ones would you choose at which levels?
Yeah, good question.
It’s pretty complicated. First, you want abilities that complement each other with respect to what they do. Second, you probably want to expect to either be in photon mode most of the time, or graviton mode most of the time, and so you should probably avoid abilities which are only good in the mode you’re not in. Third, the disproportionate revelations clause gives you an incentive to have roughly the same number of graviton abilities and photon abilities.
Anyway, in response to your question I cobbled together a couple builds, and I actually started to get excited about a few of them. Here’s my favorite:
- The “Aura of Pain” Build:
- Choose Solar Weapon or Solar Armor?: Either
- 2nd level revelation: Radiation
- 4th level revelation: Plasma Sheath
- 6th level revelation: Corona
- 8th level revelation: Glow of Life
- 9th level Zenith revelation: Miniature Star
- 10th level revelation: Soul Furnace
- Essential Feats: Stand Still, Improved Stand Still, Step Up, Fleet (retrain into Sky Jockey once you get a jet pack)
- Nice Feats: Improved Step Up
- Essential Equipment: Jet Pack!!!, Weapon crystals (if go for Solar Weapon)
The idea here is to kick in your painful aura abilities, get next to your opponents as quickly as possible, and keep them from getting away as you maul them with your melee attacks and cripple them with your aura.
To explain a bit more: The Radiation and Corona abilities allow you to sicken and burn nearby opponents, and they last indefinitely while you’re in photon mode. You won’t get to use the Miniature Star zenith ability often (since your photon/graviton ability imbalance will make it harder to get there), but when you do get to kick it in, it really adds to the pain of anyone stuck near you.
The Stand Still and Step Up feats make it much harder for anyone next to you to get away. And the Fleet (retrained into Sky Jockey) feats allow you to get adjacent to enemies as quickly as possible.
The other abilities round out this role, but could be traded out for something else if one prefers. The Plasma Sheath ability makes your melee attacks nastier in photon mode, and you’ll always be in photon mode. Glow of Life is a decent source of in-combat healing (especially when in photon mode), and since you’ll be in the front lines, you’ll be getting wailed on a lot. And Soul Furnace’s ability to dismiss nasty conditions will help you stay in the fight.
EDIT: Corrected in light of Imbicatus's comments, below.
Can Solarions make 2 solar weapons at some point, or are the only limited to 1?
My question appears to have been lost in the hubbub, so I'll ask it again.