A couple friends of mine (you know who you are, no reading this) and I missed playing face-to-face games, so I'll be running a game in a homebrewed setting weekly. The problem is that it really is just a couple of them, 2 players.
One PC is an Oracle who showed interest in focusing on summoning, which could make this easier for me. But for now, her only feat is weapon finesse.
The other is A tinkerer alchemist with one level of gunslinger. The setting has a strong steampunk focus and uses "guns everywhere" rules, so the single level is all that's needed.
The PC's are level 2, I need to know ways, tips, and/or tricks to design encounters that won't brutally murder PC's who lack significant melee capability. I can answer more questions about them and the setting if need be, but this game starts in a few days, so I want to be ready.
1. Avoid stats effects that lower action economy, particularly early in the fight
2. Solo bosses will actually work. In fact they might be a good idea
3. Always remember they have less options available so anything that hard counters one of them is effectively halving party power
4. Gestalt is a fun option and helps alot with point 3
1. Avoid stats effects that lower action economy, particularly early in the fight
2. Solo bosses will actually work. In fact they might be a good idea
3. Always remember they have less options available so anything that hard counters one of them is effectively halving party power
4. Gestalt is a fun option and helps alot with point 3
Gestalt did cross my mind, but the oracle player is new to pathfinder, and a full caster is as far as I think would be wise to psuh the learning curve. But you are right, I could actually use solo bosses.
Seconding the gestalt, but if the oracle's new that could be tricky, yes. Maybe give the oracle an item that acts similar to the Augment Summons feat to let them get sturdier summons? Or to summon in a standard rather than a full round? Because if you have two PCs on the table and the oracle needs to spend a full round creating a meatshield line, that's gonna be reaaaal rough for them the first time the goblin runs up and stabs the oracle mid-summons and disrupts the spell.
An NPC that you play as big-dumb-fighter or barb or the like would at least give them a frontline.
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Have them each play two characters. It's not that hard, and is the best way to handle action economy issues, etc.
I occasionally play with an old friend, who will run four PC's for an adventure path. Really there are no rules saying one person must only run one PC.
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Well, that's a pretty good two-character party.
If the oracle is taking weapon finesse, she's interested in melee. If you help with the build, she should be able to fill that role fine and also provide a good amount of support and healing. As you mentioned, summoning helps add targets.
The alchemist might be a ranged character, but they should be pretty tough, so you don't need to worry so much about enemies getting past the front line. He should also be able to lay down some battlefield control through bombs in addition to having solid DPS.
Avoiding taking PCs out of combat is definitely priority #1. A sleep spell could easily TPK a small group. Consider Hero Points for a bit of extra insurance.
An NPC meat shield would do the trick, but unless your players are excited about having lackies I'd try making them feel more awesome instead. Letting the oracle summon as a standard action would be a good houserule. For the alchemist, maybe let his clockwork familiar drop bombs in addition to its normal ability to distribute infusions? That'd make it a pretty versatile action economy boost.
Things you could do: give your players max hp at each level up to make them less squishy, have them each play one additional character (this will also give your newest player some experience in a different class), hirelings you control (heal bot, tank, etc.), consider using hero points, gestalt, and maybe being overly generous with wands of healing. May also consider making your bad guy's lackies a couple less levels than you would normally build them at.
As a whole I would want to avoid NPC's that tag along for any extended length of time. Only two PCs means I'll be doing even more of the talking than normal as is.
I'm seconding the suggestion that they each play 2 characters. I have GMed and currently play in a group of three and it works marvelously for us. Two characters is not too much to handle unless the players are new to the game.
Gestalt did cross my mind, but the oracle player is new to pathfinder, and a full caster is as far as I think would be wise to push the learning curve.
Well, that's a pretty good two-level party.
If the oracle is taking weapon finesse, she's interested in melee. If you help with the build, she should be able to fill that role fine and also provide a good amount of support and healing. As you mentioned, summoning helps add targets.
The alchemist might be a ranged character, but they should be pretty tough, so you don't need to worry so much about enemies getting past the front line. He should also be able to lay down some battlefield control through bombs in addition to having solid DPS.
Avoiding taking PCs out of combat is definitely priority #1. A sleep spell could easily TPK a small group. Consider Hero Points for a bit of extra insurance.
An NPC meat shield would do the trick, but unless your players are excited about having lackies I'd try making them feel more awesome instead. Letting the oracle summon as a standard action would be a good houserule. For the alchemist, maybe let his clockwork familiar drop bombs in addition to its normal ability to distribute infusions? That'd make it a pretty versatile action economy boost.
This is a little closer to what I'm talking about I think. I'm sorry, I guess I know how to better phrase what I'm looking for now. I'd like advice on enemy tactics, or additions I can make to the PC's themselves to help them out.
Adding some mythic tiers is the way to go. If you are worried about overwhelming the player then just make their mythic choices for them. But mythic has some real advantages for low player parties.
1) Survivability. Mythic gives extra hit points.
2) Action economy. Mythic allows you to take extra actions by burning points.
3) Versatility. Mythic can give you lots of new options.
I'd start out with 1st mythic tier at level 1 and give more as needed. An extra mythic tier every 3 levels sounds about right, though.
I obviously can't speak to the skill level of your oracle friend but speaking from personal experience, I picked up gestalting rather quickly in my first 3.5 game.
It's an option worth presenting to your friends, at least. If they think it's too complicated for them to pick up, then drop it.
For instance, that oracle with the hierophant mythic path and the inspired spell divine surge can cast from any of the oracle spells a limited number of times per day. So the player doesn't need to agonize over having every situational spell.
Me and a buddy are running mummies mask and we're close to the end of the adventure and we each are playing 2 characters, basically we started with a full party but as people left and when not it was just the 2 of us, my buddies oracldin and my knowledge monkey bard, anyways the dm allowed me to roll up a second character so in addition to the bard and paladin we now had a summoning focused cleric (the summons helped immensely through out the campaign) and then a whiles later seeing the lack of high lvl arcane casting, our dm gave my buddy a sorcerer to play.
I run a two man party using a rule called Extraordinary Heroes. They gain +1hp and +1 skill point a level - just to round out their capacities a bit - and are entitled to a save every round against effects that would unduly incapacitate them (things like paralysis and Dominate Person are death against a small party, and this rule allows them to still be used without it just being an auto-doom).
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May I suggest using the "Elephant in the Room" house rules? It makes feats like Weapon Finesse or Combat Expertise built into the game so that everyone gets them and still have their feat slots. You can find it here: http://michaeliantorno.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/
Either Mythic or Gestalt would be my suggestion.
If you use Mythic, give one Mythic tier every 4 levels. That should keep things manageable.
Also, if you decide to use Mythic do not allow Mythic Power Attack or Mythic Vital strike. Remove them entirely. Most of the other stuff in Mythic is fine.
Mythic is again adding complexity and a whole new subsystem.
Just give them Con score instead of con modifier to HP at first level as a bonus. It makes a big difference to survivability at early levels.
Can also give them 2 bonus skill points per level and a feat at every level instead of alternate levels but that's you're call. It shouldn't be necessary.
The only issue I've run into with two characters for each player is the players often times feel like one of there characters is in the wheel and has personality while the other is kind of retagated to only having a personality when role play involves that character specifically. However this is just from my own personal experience it may be different with other people and other characters
Als my end group have taken to using the elephant in the room feat adjustments for all of our games, because there are a ton of fun interesting and flavorful feats to pick from but when all of your fighters are REQUIRED to grab power attack to feel like they are making optimal choices it leads to staler games, plus those feat adjustments make combat maneuvers a fun tool that anyone can access not just for those who are specializing in 1 kind of combat maneuver.
Thread for you (Necromancy welcome) with links to other relevant threads.
Mostly just agreeing with what has already been mentioned:
Mythic can be tricky and adds and extra layer for new players. I would recommend some kind of hero point system, this they can burn as an action to make additional saves vs suck/die, negate crit 1's, or guarantee hits vs bosses.
Solo bosses, or a limited number of powerful lieutenants should greatly help with action economy balancing in both directions. It is hard to give enemy advice without a clearer idea of the story and setting. But whatever you choose, have then strong against the PARTY weaknesses, not one character or the other.
If this is steampunk and guns are everywhere, then I suggest letting the PC's gear up specifically against guns, touch AC is hard to buff.
-Spell Damp Powder.
-Spell Bullet Shield
-Item Amulet of Bullet Protection
Having the PC's and enemies under specific rules of engagement could be very helpful:
IE - Maybe force fights to be duels, fighting outside regulation areas could get both sides in trouble (if they are caught).
-Maybe in the steampunk city everything is flammable, make using guns for both sides a risk (and open up environmental opportunities).
Granting dumb animal/construct sidekicks could be very useful. Playing 2 characters, plus summons, plus tracking all the resources could be very taxing for some players. A dumb creature that cannot force itself into the spotlight (or speak) and has only HP, Moves, and maybe a few limited charges of some kind could be much more manageable.
They are going to be relatively squishy, a free feat like Diehard, or Ferocity, or spelllike single cantrip stabilize could save them, because if 1 is downed, the other is probably fighting and unable to move in to assist easily.
Try to avoid GMPC's (Gm played party characters), you are the GM and they are the stars, if you play a PC you CANNOT avoid metagaming and giving all the fun away.
Whatever you do, make enemies consistent or give the PC's plenty of prep time, 2 players simply lack the versatility and ability to adapt to situations as a 4 man party. Skills will be lacking, resources will be thin, and variety will be low.
-Try to Keep foes to one category - Undead/Animal/Fey/Humanoid/ooze/whatever.
-Variety is OK, but the majority should be in a single reliable category so they do not NEED to stretch to ALWAYS have every possible alternative ready.
-Give them consumables, or access to cheap consumables so they do not feel the need to have permanent options in every category and they can then specialize with confidence.
Help them with their skills, they need to compliment each other and have defined roles, if they both take KNOW local, then maybe neither will have KNOW Nature. If they both use cold iron, they may lack a silver weapon, etc.
Give them plenty of NPC resources, but try to avoid joining their party, these can be guild mates, a helpful underground, an estate library filled with information (And circumstance bonuses), a mechanical owl that dispenses useful tips, a madman in a box that always has sweets in his pockets and a timely piece of advice for those clever enough to understand it, or just a network of homeless willing to spy for coppers.
Here's another thought, depending upon the flavor of the campaign: Give them access to mercenaries/"specialists"/other allies that they can hire(*) temporarily.
(*)Or gain in exchange for some non-monetary favor.
Well for starters give them the appropriate CR adjustment (Two level two PC's are CR1ish) and make sure to increase their income a step or two. Decent equipment can make two as effective as four. A rule of thumb I use is +1/2CR for every 4k you give to each party member. For example if you give them 8k each count them as being 1CR higher.
My not so Gm advice would be to encourage the players to take care of it. Ultimately they run the show on what they can and cannot do. It may be a bit direct but advise one or both of them to take one of the early Leadership feats (Torch bearer or Squire) to get a cohort. Or hell just give them the feats for free. Second encourage the Alchemist to take Promethean disciple so he can build a few meat shields.
For encounters they lack a true front line so I would recommend sticking to shoot outs with a few little things (no more than 4 low level critters for every 3 levels) or one big melee thing they can kite around.
Mythic is again adding complexity and a whole new subsystem.
Just give them Con score instead of con modifier to HP at first level as a bonus. It makes a big difference to survivability at early levels.
Can also give them 2 bonus skill points per level and a feat at every level instead of alternate levels but that's you're call. It shouldn't be necessary.
Mythic barely adds any complexity. If you make the mythic choices for the players, then it would just be a couple new powers tacked onto what they already had.
Giving more hp and skills still doesn't do much to solve the biggest issue, which is action economy. Out of the main options, the only ones to help action economy are mythic or simply playing multiple characters. And playing an extra character is going to add a lot more complexity than mythic does.
I've run one on one adventures before, so my advice would be to adjust your APL down by 2 or 3 and your CR to match. Try to avoid save or suck spells or anything that would incapacitate a PC for an extended period of time. I wouldn't normally advocate for such considerations, but when running a small party, it doesn't take much to take them out of combat and out of the game.
As an experienced mythic GM, I wouldn't add it unless you're already familiar with it. It's simple enough to understand surging and spending mythic points, but the variations come from interpreting the various path abilities and feats. And mythic villains can be NASTY!
As an experienced mythic GM, I wouldn't add it unless you're already familiar with it. It's simple enough to understand surging and spending mythic points, but the variations come from interpreting the various path abilities and feats. And mythic villains can be NASTY!
Well, I had assumed it obvious, but he wouldn't be adding mythic villains. This is just mythic to take the place of extra characters. And he could choose the path abilities and feats for the players depending on what he thinks fits the campaign and character.
I dont think you have too much to worry about... if theyre experienced players they will know they'll have to change their gameplan. And the odd wand of CLW would be appreciated! ;)
I personally dislike multiple characters for a single player. If you are primarily interested in just the tactical aspects of the game it can work out fine, but for me at least trying to roleplay multiple characters and different personalities is difficult. I prefer to immerse myself in my character to a degree and more than one makes that difficult.
For the most part, adjusting the CR of the encounters down works out just fine, what you really have to watch for is Save-Or-Lose (or Die) type effects. Even if they have only a small chance to fail, bad roles happen and a single bad role will take half of your party, rather than a quarter, out of combat. That can make a standard encounter into a TPK really quickly.
Gestalt can mitigate this danger to a degree by giving the PCs more good saves (and of course it can help them deal with a wider variety of challenges) but it doesn't completely eliminate it since no matter how good a save you have a natural 1 is always a failure. Hero point rerolls can also help, but probably the best solution is to be aware of this and thus reduce the frequency of them encountering that type of challenge.
Personally I wouldn't worry too much about their lack of melee ability. That is something they should worry about, of course, and planning on using summons is an excellent way. They should also try and maximize their mobility. With proper tactics and planning a group can survive just fine without a 'front line' of melee characters.
If you are terribly worried though you can give them some sort of extra benefit. For example, a protector familiar would help them survive attacks quite a bit, or an improved familiar that could UMD could help heal a downed PC or remove status effects. Obviously leadership and a cohort could do the same sorts of things. If you limited the 'free' companions actions to defensive and healing functions it wouldn't take anything away from the heroes doing all the combat, but would allow for some emergency fixes.
Mythic is again adding complexity and a whole new subsystem.
Just give them Con score instead of con modifier to HP at first level as a bonus. It makes a big difference to survivability at early levels.
Can also give them 2 bonus skill points per level and a feat at every level instead of alternate levels but that's you're call. It shouldn't be necessary.
Mythic barely adds any complexity. If you make the mythic choices for the players, then it would just be a couple new powers tacked onto what they already had.
Giving more hp and skills still doesn't do much to solve the biggest issue, which is action economy. Out of the main options, the only ones to help action economy are mythic or simply playing multiple characters. And playing an extra character is going to add a lot more complexity than mythic does.
Action economy can be balanced by reducing enemy action economy that PCs usually outpace enemies on every time. In fact too much PC action economy makes DMing encounters harder not easier.
The problem with playing with two is that one character dropping from an unlucky crit halves party strength. Survivability absolutely is the issue.
I second the point that second characters are not great for new players. Pathfinder PCs can be complex enough.
If you insist on adding more bodies consider giving each the druids animal companion ability. To reduce the awkwardness of roleplayimg to people.
I should add that agree with the point that one person controlling multiple characters can bog down the RP in the game, and at least my newer player wants to make that a focus. But, we're not ignoring combat entirely, hence this thread.
I should add that agree with the point that one person controlling multiple characters can bog down the RP in the game, and at least my newer player wants to make that a focus. But, we're not ignoring combat entirely, hence this thread.
I'd say either gestalting or giving them mythic powers(without presenting mythic enemies) are your best bets, then.
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Make a DM Healbot PC. I mean really crank their healing, full cleric with the merciful healer archetype, yeah make them a beast but 100% healing dedicated.
If not this then grant the Oracle character the most powerful healing wand that they can get and don't charge them for it. (We have no "main healers" in the game I'm in and my fiance gave my character a wand of cure moderate). It really makes the game more fun since we don't have to stop every 4 or so fights because I'm ONCE AGAIN out of healing spells.
By the way, awesome campaign journal of Rise of the Runelords with 2 PCs per player + 1 GMPC. Haven't yet gotten to the end(?), but so far it's great. Be sure to follow the links to the 2 prologue documents so that you really know what's going on.