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If an attack of opportunity disrupts your action can you change your action if the initial action can't be completed?
Examples:
I try to use Manyshot which requires a full round action, and my bow is disarmed can I just take a different full round action?
If I decide to move, and get tripped can I use that move action to do something else instead, such as stand up?
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If an attack of opportunity disrupts your action can you change your action if the initial action can't be completed?
Examples:
I try to use Manyshot which requires a full round action, and my bow is disarmed can I just take a different full round action?If I decide to move, and get tripped can I use that move action to do something else instead, such as stand up?
If you were casting a spell and it got disrupted via an AoO can you start casting another spell?
Obviously no.
Action declared and negated.
I agree that the answer is no, but it has come up a few times.
so has lots of rules that are fairly clear, like "how does the magus work?", "can invisible things flank?", and the like.
If an attack of opportunity disrupts your action can you change your action if the initial action can't be completed?
Examples:
I try to use Manyshot which requires a full round action, and my bow is disarmed can I just take a different full round action?If I decide to move, and get tripped can I use that move action to do something else instead, such as stand up?
If you were casting a spell and it got disrupted via an AoO can you start casting another spell?
Obviously no.
Action declared and negated.
Spells are different and not the norm as they are specifically called out as lost. No other actions are.
AoOs happen before the action that triggers them. Unfortunately there is no official word on declarations vs. actions. This has been asked before.
In my opinion, Paizo failed to answer this question in the FAQ. They only answered it from the perspective of a completely incapacitated character.
Further, Paizo (still in my opinion) needs to define the interrupts that happen before something and the ones that stop something completely. While both are interrupts, they are different things.
Boy, I wish you could take an action back. My character got killed because she failed an acrobatics check to climb through a window without provoking an AoO. She hadn't taken any damage all game and one stupid move on my part gets her killed.
AoOs happen before the action that triggers them.
You're thinking of readied actions.
Attacks of opportunity interrupt the normal flow of actions and are immediately resolved as soon as they are provoked.
They don't happen before the action, they happen in the midst of the action.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/combat.html#attacks-of-oppo rtunity
The one I was never clear on is what happens to movement that triggers an AoO that includes a bull rush or equivalent forced movement effect (e.g. Kinetic Whip with Pushing Infusion). If you have forced movement during an action, what happens? Like if you bull rush someone during a charge so that they no longer have an unobstructed path to their target, what happens then?
The one I was never clear on is what happens to movement that triggers an AoO that includes a bull rush or equivalent forced movement effect (e.g. Kinetic Whip with Pushing Infusion). If you have forced movement during an action, what happens? Like if you bull rush someone during a charge so that they no longer have an unobstructed path to their target, what happens then?If you can't take the action it fails. A win for the AoO
So a creature with 20' of movement charges someone 40' away, gets successfully bull rushed 5' backwards from an AoO, where do they end their turn? 5' away from the target, or where they got moved to resulting in them no longer having enough movement to reach the target?
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so has lots of rules that are fairly clear, like "how does the magus work?", "can invisible things flank?", and the like.
I disagree with the invisible things flanking as not being a valid question.
The rules cant always be used correctly with the most literal interpretation even though it would be the case in an ideal world. The idea with flanking is that you have someone on both sides and cant defend against both of them, but if from a realistic viewpoint if you don't know either one is there then it should have no effect on the other one being able to hit you since you cant be distracted by what you don't know is there. However from a game and rules point of view the +2 still counts because you are flanked.
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I can't believe 3 people faqd that.
Sometimes Paizo goes against what they write in the books so not as many things are as obvious as we like them to be, and more obvious things have been answered.
I try to use Manyshot which requires a full round action, and my bow is disarmed can I just take a different full round action?
If I decide to move, and get tripped can I use that move action to do something else instead, such as stand up?
These are not the questions I was asking. Let's rephrase:
1. If I Manyshot which requires a full round action and get disarmed, do I lose the standard action (from "starting" a full attack) or the entire full round action? In other words, can I use a move action to do something since I'm not actually full attacking with a bow for the round? You definitely lose at least a standard action no matter what.
2, if I Withdraw (full round action) but immediately get tripped before I even leave my square (due to a readied action), am I still locked into the entire Withdraw (which I can no longer do)? Or have I only lost *one* move action and can still use the other half of my turn for something else? You definitely lose a move action if you try to move and get tripped.
This is not just about your question. It is about the idea of can an action be retracted if it cant be completed, and that answer would apply to your question. If they say you lose the action that you commit to that would settle it.
This is actually an interesting interaction because
Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack
After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you’ve already taken a 5-foot step, you can’t use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.
When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows.
So I could see how there could be confusion around this.
The big distinction to me is that by declaring the use of Manyshot, you are effectively choosing to lock yourself into completing a full attack action with your first shot.
AoOs happen before the action that triggers them.You're thinking of readied actions.
Attacks of opportunity interrupt the normal flow of actions and are immediately resolved as soon as they are provoked.
They don't happen before the action, they happen in the midst of the action.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/combat.html#attacks-of-oppo rtunity
You are incorrect. All AoOs happen before the action that triggers them. The trip lock is not an option because the target is on the ground, gets tripped, and then can stand up after the trip with no unusual effects. It is NOT because a prone character is not a valid target.
As the game system is defined, there is no "in the mist of the action" phase. Every single action happens before or after another. No action of any kind happens at the exact same moment in time. Understanding this basic game concept is extremely difficult in Pathfinder due to the different types of interrupts. Some just happen before as in a typical AoO. Others actually stop another action such as a counter-spell. Many are not clearly defined leaving the players to decide what is proper.
The difficulty is compounded because of the possibility of many happening due to one original trigger. It is all first in, last out.
Every single action happens before or after another.
This clearly isn't true for all actions - for example, casting a summoning spell with a casting time of one round.
If I shoot someone with an arrow while they're doing that, the damage occurs after the casting action has started, but before the casting has achieved anything.
I think the situation is similar with AoOs for shorter actions. If you provoke an AoO for movement, you've started moving out of a threatened square (because if you hadn't, you wouldn't have done anything to provoke an AoO), but you haven't moved out of the square yet (because if you had, you'd probably be out of range of the attack).
Every single action happens before or after another.This clearly isn't true for all actions - for example, casting a summoning spell with a casting time of one round.
If I shoot someone with an arrow while they're doing that, the damage occurs after the casting action has started, but before the casting has achieved anything.
I think the situation is similar with AoOs for shorter actions. If you provoke an AoO for movement, you've started moving out of a threatened square (because if you hadn't, you wouldn't have done anything to provoke an AoO), but you haven't moved out of the square yet (because if you had, you'd probably be out of range of the attack).
You got me. Casting spells of more than one round are excluded from my statement. If you say you are going to drink a potion, and then get killed from the AoO, is the potion gone? No. It is not gone because you didn't start drinking it. It is of no use to you, but it is still safe in a vial because you were killed before the action of drinking it, not during.
In your example of moving out of a threatened square, if you are killed by the AoO, which square do you fall in? The one you started in. This is because you never left it. The AoO happened first. In my opinion, your telegraphing of an action (such as moving out of the square) creates an opening that allows the AoO. This would enable the AoO to go before the action without having to do a time loop.
But the in-game explanation does not matter. It is still a fact that AoOs happen before the action that triggers them. If they happened during or after, than the Trip Lock would be a valid tactic.
...The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved...
If Paizo determines that all actions are lost/used once declared, then they are basically stating that it is easier to react to something when it is not your turn (AoOs and Readied Actins) then it is to react to something that happens ON your turn, such as getting tripped without leaving your starting square and losing your entire full action because you said you were going to charge. It is nonsensical, to me, that you couldn't change your action and attack the person that tripped you. You have done nothing in game to take up the time required for the full action. It screams that all the combatants are better at reading the actions of others than they are at adjusting to battlefield changes.
But again, the in-game reasoning doesn't matter. Pazio just needs to come up with a clear ruling as this question comes up a lot and should be easy for them to pick a side.
To me "The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved" doesn't mean the action hasn't even started. I initiate a move; I immediately get tripped before making it out the first square. I have lost the move action because I already started moving, even if I didn't make any measurable progress.
This is consistent with how spells work; you start chanting, but you get walloped before you launch the fireball. Your standard action is gone.
You've spent enough time moving to create a recognisable opening. Then your opponent swung his weapon and knocked you over. You fell to the ground. If we're converting this to real-world time, it seems like that process would take a couple of seconds, minimum. Having your entire turn's worth of actions remaining and using them to stand up again and run away before your opponent can respond doesn't sound right to me.
I don't see a trip-lock problem with this. You start to stand up; while you're doing this your opponent can hit you, but since you haven't finished standing up, you can't be tripped again.
To me "The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved" doesn't mean the action hasn't even started. I initiate a move; I immediately get tripped before making it out the first square. I have lost the move action because I already started moving, even if I didn't make any measurable progress.
This is consistent with how spells work; you start chanting, but you get walloped before you launch the fireball. Your standard action is gone.
You've spent enough time moving to create a recognisable opening. Then your opponent swung his weapon and knocked you over. You fell to the ground. If we're converting this to real-world time, it seems like that process would take a couple of seconds, minimum. Having your entire turn's worth of actions remaining and using them to stand up again and run away before your opponent can respond doesn't sound right to me.
I don't see a trip-lock problem with this. You start to stand up; while you're doing this your opponent can hit you, but since you haven't finished standing up, you can't be tripped again.
Spells and losing your casting are an exception, not the norm. They are specifically called out as being lost. Nothing else is.
Your argument plays both sides. On one hand, so much time is lost before the AoO that a person that hasn't moved yet loses their full-round actions. Yet on the other, the one trying to stand up, no time is lost so they still can finish all of their actions.
Look at the difference:
I declare a charge, you AoO a trip, I fall, all full round actions are lost. All is lost because, as you say, I started moving.
vs.
I declare standing up, you AoO trip, I re-fall, it doesn't take any time. I stand up and run away. Nothing is lost, because as the FAQ says, I didn't start moving.
So which is it? Did I start moving or didn't I?
We are not going to agree, I get that. But I totally believe it is a valid FAQ. I believe the game has to draw a solid, clear, bold line at when the AoO actually happens and what changes are allowed to be made due to changes in battlefield conditions.
If I declare a move, move but a wizard triggers a spell that drops a pit in my path, am I allowed to stop? Am I allowed to change direction? Can I jump over it? All seem obvious but an action was declared and there was a change in the conditions that would cause my character to want to change what they are doing. Do I declare a move, then wait for others to act, then declare a separate move? Do I move square by square to see what others do?
Can I change direction when I am made aware of new threats that I did not trigger, such as turning a corner and seeing a dragon or am I forced to continue with my declared action. Nothing anywhere states that I must continue, but nothing states that I can stop or change it once declared either. There are not even any guidelines that I am aware of.
I find all of these questions to be interwoven into a character's ability to react to changes in the battlefield.
You are incorrect. All AoOs happen before the action that triggers them.
Right. Because if if someone charges me, and I trip them at 10' with my reach weapon due to either AoO or readied action to do so, I trip them at their starting position 40' away right? Or I can't actually trip them because they aren't in range because my attack is taking place before their action right? :)
Or if someone makes a full-attack with a bow, each one generates an AoO, meaning the second, third, etc AoO are happening mid-full-attack action.
Clearly the rules allow for us to interrupt another mid-action.
Further, Jason Buhlman has made this comment (in an unofficial capacity).
The most relevant part being "Technically, the AoO occurs as the event that provokes it is taking place, but since we can't have "middle ground" conditions, they are pushed to before to keep things straightforward."
In other words, not that they the designers don't understand there is actually middle ground conditions, but from a straight forward rules mechanical way they keep the actions distinct. This does not suggest or imply an allowed changing of actions if one becomes invalid, quite the opposite in fact.
And lastly I'll ask the question I now always ask about being able to choose another action if your current choice is no longer valid. (Which no one dares tackle - which should be telling of how the rules are actually intended to work).
Enemy as combat reflexes and enough dex to take a very large number of AoO's.
I have a potion in hand and want to drink it: AoO, he sunders my potion, drinking is no longer a valid option for me.
I change action and decide to sheathe the dagger I have in my other hand: AoO, he sunders the dagger, I can no longer sheathe it.
I change my action, quick draw my bow, and try to shoot him: AoO, he disarms me. Attacking with bow is no longer a valid option for me.
I change my action to move away from enemy: AoO for leaving threatened square, he trips me, I can no longer move.
I make an unarmed strike against him: AoO he attacks me.
Is the above sequence allowed and valid by the rules?
I declare standing up, you AoO trip, I re-fall, it doesn't take any time. I stand up and run away. Nothing is lost, because as the FAQ says, I didn't start moving.
Which FAQ are you referring to here? The trip lock FAQ? It doesn't say a thing about "because I didn't start moving" or anything of the like. It says "Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up."
Does not prevent the targets action - so target gets to stand up. Or in other words if the AoO does prevent the targets action, then the target wouldn't be able to stand up. Like if you are tripped, you can no longer move, so you don't get to move (well you could crawl if you want).
Do I move square by square to see what others do?
Technically yes, but since it doesn't matter 99% of the time we don't bother to move that way. But if I know I'm going to move past 5 enemies during my move, I let the GM know my planned path, he starts taking AoO's as appropriate, and at any point if I decide to end my movement, change my route, etc, then we adjust it at that point. If a pit opens in my path I decide to jump it, or abort my plan, doesn't matter. I used a move action. Whether it ultimately ended with my original intent or not is irrelevant. I'm not locked into a path.
eg, if I tell the GM I want to move away from the enemy by moving north, must I move due north. Can I move north and slightly east? Do I have to move north my full movement capacity? No. Those are all questions that can be answered as relevant events occurs as a result of me moving.
I declare standing up, you AoO trip, I re-fall, it doesn't take any time. I stand up and run away. Nothing is lost, because as the FAQ says, I didn't start moving.
Which FAQ are you referring to here? The trip lock FAQ? It doesn't say a thing about "because I didn't start moving" or anything of the like. It says "Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up."
Does not prevent the targets action - so target gets to stand up. Or in other words if the AoO does prevent the targets action, then the target wouldn't be able to stand up. Like if you are tripped, you can no longer move, so you don't get to move (well you could crawl if you want).
Technically yes, but since it doesn't matter 99% of the time we don't bother to move that way. But if I know I'm going to move past 5 enemies during my move, I let the GM know my planned path, he starts taking AoO's as appropriate, and at any point if I decide to end my movement, change my route, etc, then we adjust it at that point.
Do I move square by square to see what others do?
About crawling after a trip, could I? Say I attacked you once and tried to move 10' then you tripped me. Can I then move 5' via crawl or is my move action used up? If it is not, why is it used up if I want to draw a weapon? (My next post will answer your other post which more directly addresses changing action).
As to the FAQ, the reason you can't be "re-tripped" is because you are not yet moving. You haven't stood up yet. You haven't used your move action to stand up. Yet you still trigger the AoO by trying to. And it is still valid for the person to use a trip on you, there is just no change in the sequence because you are already on the ground. If a wolf attacked you when you tried to stand, he could still trip you at the end of it. A successful trip might still trigger Greater Trip, even if you were prone.
As it concerns consistency and casting spells and AoOs: The concentration check is a specifically called exception to the chain of events. So while the AoO occurs before the spell is completed (and technically before the action), the exception allows it have an effect on whether or not the spell is completed. No such exception exists for tripping, disarming, or moving, unless other game rules would dictate a interruption (such as going unconscious).
And the FAQ about interrupts only deals with examples that totally incapacitate the character, as Mr. Buhlman has used above.
So now both of us are using the same guy, in the same thread to show clear support of our different positions. Do you see why some people might like a FAQ?
More support about the order of AoO from the 3.5 FAQ:
When a character gets up from prone, when does the attack of opportunity take place? When he is still prone? When he is standing? Can the attacker choose when to attack? In one case, the attacker can get a +4 bonus to hit. In the other, he can make another trip attack.
All attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that trigger them (see Chapter 8 in the PH). When you make an attack of opportunity against someone who’s getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after he gets up, however.
You are incorrect. All AoOs happen before the action that triggers them.Right. Because if if someone charges me, and I trip them at 10' with my reach weapon due to either AoO or readied action to do so, I trip them at their starting position 40' away right? Or I can't actually trip them because they aren't in range because my attack is taking place before their action right? :)
Or if someone makes a full-attack with a bow, each one generates an AoO, meaning the second, third, etc AoO are happening mid-full-attack action.
Clearly the rules allow for us to interrupt another mid-action.
Further, Jason Buhlman has made this comment (in an unofficial capacity).
The most relevant part being "Technically, the AoO occurs as the event that provokes it is taking place, but since we can't have "middle ground" conditions, they are pushed to before to keep things straightforward."
In other words, not that they the designers don't understand there is actually middle ground conditions, but from a straight forward rules mechanical way they keep the actions distinct. This does not suggest or imply an allowed changing of actions if one becomes invalid, quite the opposite in fact.
And lastly I'll ask the question I now always ask about being able to choose another action if your current choice is no longer valid. (Which no one dares tackle - which should be telling of how the rules are actually intended to work).
Enemy as combat reflexes and enough dex to take a very large number of AoO's.
I have a potion in hand and want to drink it: AoO, he sunders my potion, drinking is no longer a valid option for me.
I change action and decide to sheathe the dagger I have in my other hand: AoO, he sunders the dagger, I can no longer sheathe it.
I change my action, quick draw my bow, and try to shoot him: AoO, he disarms me. Attacking with bow is no longer a valid option for me.
I...
I do not advocate being able to completely change your actions. You do not have an unending list of do-overs until you find something that works. What we do at our table (YMMV) is convert any interrupted action into the least "costly" action that could have completed that part.
For instance, if I declare a charge and start to move, and I am tripped in my first movement phase (typically 30') than a move action would have been spent, rather than a full round action. If I hit 35', then it would be a move-move.
I absolutely agree that there should be an action economy "cost" to trying just about anything. However I do feel that all of the action economy should be spent if I was trying a "run" but got dropped in my original square.
I feel this allows the person whose turn it is to try more things as the cost is never "lose your turn". I also feel it more evenly allows players whose turn it is to react to changes in the battlefield as quickly as those whose turn it is not.
The moving into crawling is because it's the same thing, move action to move, just when crawling your speed is super low. So since you started to move and are now prone you can continue your move action to move using your current movespeed.
If your move action was to draw an item, intending to grab a potion from your backpack, and they somehow were able to steal your backpack with the AoO you could still draw something else from somewhere else.
If your action is to stand up from prone you start, get attacked and "retripped" and then you finish your action of standing up from prone which means at the end of it you're not prone.
If your action was to charge and you're tripped you're done, since you can't continue a charge while prone. Don't take such risky actions if you're not prepared for the consequence.
Crawling is a move action, not a move. You do not have a crawl speed. They are similar, but not the same. Move is a move action. Crawl is a different move action.
Allowing someone to chose to draw a different item from a different place is also a different action.
It seems like you don't have a fine line as to what people are allowed to change and not change. Looks like you will allow to change out some actions, but not others. Which again makes me interested in a FAQ.
the action is "Retrieve a stored item" which is a move action. No need to declare the item until after the AoO has happened.
Though you're correct on crawling, it is it's own action, and thus not transferable, my misunderstanding on it.
the action is "Retrieve a stored item" which is a move action. No need to declare the item until after the AoO has happened.
Though you're correct on crawling, it is it's own action, and thus not transferable, my misunderstanding on it.
So if I wanted to trip someone, and they tripped me during my attempt, I could change my target to trip someone else with the continuation of my original trip since I am only changing the target and still "making a trip"?
So if I wanted to trip someone, and they tripped me during my attempt, I could change my target to trip someone else with the continuation of my original trip since I am only changing the target and still "making a trip"?the action is "Retrieve a stored item" which is a move action. No need to declare the item until after the AoO has happened.
Though you're correct on crawling, it is it's own action, and thus not transferable, my misunderstanding on it.
No, you've already selected your target by the time you provoke, but you're free to continue to trip them from the ground.
Examples.
I am move action moving out of a threatened square.
Okay enemy attacks, where are you moving to? I move to this square (important that you decide now because you could possibly have been moved by the AoO)
I go to retrieve an item which provokes.
Okay I attack and (somehow) steal your backpack, which item are you retrieving?
I'm going to get my tindertwig from my pocket.
I want to trip one of the two enemies next to me, A and B (they had unimaginative parents okay).
Okay who do you pick?
Can't I decide after an AoO?
No cause only your target gets the AoO, so you need to decide your target before an AoO is provoked and you get interrupted.
I pick A.
Okay trying to trip A provokes an AoO from A and A will attack you and trip you.
Okay I swift action kip up and finish my attack with no penalty!
OR
Okay I finish my attack at prone with the -4
As to the FAQ, the reason you can't be "re-tripped" is because you are not yet moving.
I don't know where you are getting this from.
The only thing the FAQ says is that at the time of AoO you have not yet changed from "prone" to "not prone". It does not say you haven't started the action to stand up. It doesn't say you haven't started moving so you can stand up. It only says you are still "prone" when the AoO occurs. It doesn't even use the word "moving" in the entire question or answer.
As to crawling, I disagree it is a move action that is not movement. There is not a "crawl speed" characters can obtain, but characters do not need a "climb speed" to be able to climb and have it count as movement, or a "swim speed" to have swimming count as movement. In fact, climbing, swimming, and crawling are listed under the "Move" section of using move actions. It then goes on to list other move actions that are not movement (drawing weapons, manipulating items, etc).
Also, if crawl is not movement, could I crawl 5', stand up (standard action), then 5' step? No. Because crawling is movement.
In the case of I move 10', get tripped, can I then crawl 5' more? Not with that same move action you can't. E.g, if your movement speed is 30, and you move 20', then get hit with a slow spell (or any other effect that halves your movement speed) you can't move any farther, you've already used your 'current' movement speed.
I do not advocate being able to completely change your actions. You do not have an unending list of do-overs until you find something that works. What we do at our table (YMMV) is convert any interrupted action into the least "costly" action that could have completed that part.For instance, if I declare a charge and start to move, and I am tripped in my first movement phase (typically 30') than a move action would have been spent, rather than a full round action. If I hit 35', then it would be a move-move.
I absolutely agree that there should be an action economy "cost" to trying just about anything. However I do feel that all of the action economy should be spent if I was trying a "run" but got dropped in my original square.
I feel this allows the person whose turn it is to try more things as the cost is never "lose your turn". I also feel it more evenly allows players whose turn it is to react to changes in the battlefield as quickly as those whose turn it is not.
This is a reasonable ruling IMO. I don't think it matches the rules, but its not the insanity of infinite take backs I've seen several advocate.
...
As the game system is defined, there is no "in the mist of the action" phase. Every single action happens before or after another. No action of any kind happens at the exact same moment in time.
...
Are you sure that "[e]very single action happens before or after another?"
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Swift Actions
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.
Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
It seems to me that those are three types of actions that could occur while other actions were taking place.
As to the FAQ, the reason you can't be "re-tripped" is because you are not yet moving.I don't know where you are getting this from.
The only thing the FAQ says is that at the time of AoO you have not yet changed from "prone" to "not prone". It does not say you haven't started the action to stand up. It doesn't say you haven't started moving so you can stand up. It only says you are still "prone" when the AoO occurs. It doesn't even use the word "moving" in the entire question or answer.
As to crawling, I disagree it is a move action that is not movement. There is not a "crawl speed" characters can obtain, but characters do not need a "climb speed" to be able to climb and have it count as movement, or a "swim speed" to have swimming count as movement. In fact, climbing, swimming, and crawling are listed under the "Move" section of using move actions. It then goes on to list other move actions that are not movement (drawing weapons, manipulating items, etc).
Also, if crawl is not movement, could I crawl 5', stand up (standard action), then 5' step? No. Because crawling is movement.
In the case of I move 10', get tripped, can I then crawl 5' more? Not with that same move action you can't. E.g, if your movement speed is 30, and you move 20', then get hit with a slow spell (or any other effect that halves your movement speed) you can't move any farther, you've already used your 'current' movement speed.
If the reason you can't be trip-locked is because you never left the prone position, then you never moved to get up. Even putting your hand under you to push up could be "tripped" and put you back on your butt. I was extrapolating that you don't move. You are correct in that it never says it. But I believe the whole point is that you cannot wait until the right time to trip them again because the AoO happens BEFORE that time ever occurs. This is because the entire AoO happens BEFORE the action that triggers it.
Characters can gain a crawl speed. I think it is a rogue trick.
Ok, so looking at it again, you might be right about crawl. As you stated, crawl is listed under "Move" in the CRB. But this leads me down another path that I am in interested in your ruling.
If I can crawl 5', can I charge while prone? Charge says your movement can't be hindered. Does the 5' count as hindered even though we now agree it is just a different movement speed? It is not difficult terrain nor an obstacle (which charge calls out).
What about if I have monkey moves which allows me to crawl at 1/2 my move speed? And if that works, why not climb? It moves at 1/4 or 1/2 my move speed.
And finally, I think this is important, does the trip stop charge, or is it being prone? For instance, I declare a charge. You trip me via AoO. I use monkey style to stand up from prone as a swift action. Swift actions can be taken in the middle of other actions as they act like free actions. To say I can't monkey style in the middle of a charge is the same as saying I can't talk in the middle of a charge or use Quick Draw.
I don't think I agree with you about the slow. There could very well be a FAQ that counters me, but it is my belief that if you get hit by something like slow, it starts after you're hit and does not apply retroactively. So if you move the 20' that you stated, got hit by slow, you would still have 5' left. I don't see how the previous 20' would be effected.
In your trip example, you couldn't because the entire crawl move is 5'. If I again had monkey style and moved 10, got tripped, I could still move 10' as a crawl. I would have had 20' left, halved for 10'. At least that is how I understand it.
Moving from one defined speed to another might be a little different.
From normal move to swim (jump in a lake) I would do it on percentages. If I had a 40 move and a 20 swim and moved 10' to get into the water, I would say I had 15 swim left. This is because 10 is 25% of 40, leaving 75% of 20, or 15 left to swim.
From normal move to fly (jump off a cliff) it would be the opposite. If I had a 30 move and a 60 fly, the following would apply. Move 15' on land (50%) and 30' flying (50%). I think this is in line with the rules.
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As the game system is defined, there is no "in the mist of the action" phase. Every single action happens before or after another. No action of any kind happens at the exact same moment in time.
...Are you sure that "[e]very single action happens before or after another?"
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.Swift Actions
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.It seems to me that those are three types of actions that could occur while other actions were taking place.
I should have said resolved.
So if I wanted to trip someone, and they tripped me during my attempt, I could change my target to trip someone else with the continuation of my original trip since I am only changing the target and still "making a trip"?the action is "Retrieve a stored item" which is a move action. No need to declare the item until after the AoO has happened.
Though you're correct on crawling, it is it's own action, and thus not transferable, my misunderstanding on it.
No, you've already selected your target by the time you provoke, but you're free to continue to trip them from the ground.
Examples.
I am move action moving out of a threatened square.
Okay enemy attacks, where are you moving to? I move to this square (important that you decide now because you could possibly have been moved by the AoO)I go to retrieve an item which provokes.
Okay I attack and (somehow) steal your backpack, which item are you retrieving?
I'm going to get my tindertwig from my pocket.I want to trip one of the two enemies next to me, A and B (they had unimaginative parents okay).
Okay who do you pick?
Can't I decide after an AoO?
No cause only your target gets the AoO, so you need to decide your target before an AoO is provoked and you get interrupted.
I pick A.
Okay trying to trip A provokes an AoO from A and A will attack you and trip you.
Okay I swift action kip up and finish my attack with no penalty!
OR
Okay I finish my attack at prone with the -4
I agree with you that you can't change targets. I am pointing out that you are ruling that you can change targets for "retrieve an item" but that you can't for "attack action". I don't think that is correct. I believe in both cases you have to name the target.
I was trying to show that if one thing can't be changed, either can the other.
So if I wanted to trip someone, and they tripped me during my attempt, I could change my target to trip someone else with the continuation of my original trip since I am only changing the target and still "making a trip"?the action is "Retrieve a stored item" which is a move action. No need to declare the item until after the AoO has happened.
Though you're correct on crawling, it is it's own action, and thus not transferable, my misunderstanding on it.
No, you've already selected your target by the time you provoke, but you're free to continue to trip them from the ground.
Examples.
I am move action moving out of a threatened square.
Okay enemy attacks, where are you moving to? I move to this square (important that you decide now because you could possibly have been moved by the AoO)I go to retrieve an item which provokes.
Okay I attack and (somehow) steal your backpack, which item are you retrieving?
I'm going to get my tindertwig from my pocket.I want to trip one of the two enemies next to me, A and B (they had unimaginative parents okay).
Okay who do you pick?
Can't I decide after an AoO?
No cause only your target gets the AoO, so you need to decide your target before an AoO is provoked and you get interrupted.
I pick A.
Okay trying to trip A provokes an AoO from A and A will attack you and trip you.
Okay I swift action kip up and finish my attack with no penalty!
OR
Okay I finish my attack at prone with the -4I agree with you that you can't change targets. I am pointing out that you are ruling that you can change targets for "retrieve an item" but that you can't for "attack action". I don't think that is correct. I believe in both cases you have to name the target.
I was trying to show that if one thing can't be changed, either can the other.
The action of retrieve an object provokes. You don't need to declare which item you're retrieving until after the provocation. Just taking the action provokes from everyone.
For the "attempting a trip" AoO it's only for the target of your trip, so you had to pick your target before the AoO and thus can't change it.
The action of retrieve an object provokes. You don't need to declare which item you're retrieving until...So if I wanted to trip someone, and they tripped me during my attempt, I could change my target to trip someone else with the continuation of my original trip since I am only changing the target and still "making a trip"?the action is "Retrieve a stored item" which is a move action. No need to declare the item until after the AoO has happened.
Though you're correct on crawling, it is it's own action, and thus not transferable, my misunderstanding on it.
No, you've already selected your target by the time you provoke, but you're free to continue to trip them from the ground.
Examples.
I am move action moving out of a threatened square.
Okay enemy attacks, where are you moving to? I move to this square (important that you decide now because you could possibly have been moved by the AoO)I go to retrieve an item which provokes.
Okay I attack and (somehow) steal your backpack, which item are you retrieving?
I'm going to get my tindertwig from my pocket.I want to trip one of the two enemies next to me, A and B (they had unimaginative parents okay).
Okay who do you pick?
Can't I decide after an AoO?
No cause only your target gets the AoO, so you need to decide your target before an AoO is provoked and you get interrupted.
I pick A.
Okay trying to trip A provokes an AoO from A and A will attack you and trip you.
Okay I swift action kip up and finish my attack with no penalty!
OR
Okay I finish my attack at prone with the -4I agree with you that you can't change targets. I am pointing out that you are ruling that you can change targets for "retrieve an item" but that you can't for "attack action". I don't think that is correct. I believe in both cases you have to name the target.
I was trying to show that if one thing can't be changed, either can the other.
What text are you using to come to the conclusion as to when you have to declare the item? So you want to pull out a tanglefoot bag from your backpack to use on someone. You seem to think it is ok to say, "I want to pull something out, I will let you know what it is after you attack me." Then your bag gets taken. Then you decide to take a healing potion out of a belt pouch and drink it.
You don't see a problem with that but you see a problem with declaring a charge, being tripped before moving, and changing that charge to standing up from prone, or attacking from prone?
So you feel the declaration is important for one, but can be cheesed for the other?
I declare to use the "retrieve stored item action"
Okay that provokes attack
Okay now that that's done finish the action, you've declared you're doing a "retrieve stored item action" what item are you retrieving?
vs
I declare to use the "charge" action
Okay you need to pick your target for that, okay target selected
Okay I begin to move for my charge,
Oh that provokes and trip and now your charge against your target is invalid because you can't finish it.
one the declaration of action type is all that's needed to provoke, not any of the specifics. The other you to actually have "started" the action and decided everything before the interrupt can happen.
My apologies if it's already been answered, but now I'm confused about something I thought I knew...
If my movement provokes an attack of opportunity and it hits me, does that mean that I cannot move any further... that I lose the rest of my movement, if any?
No. Once you declare an action, you have to commit to it unless there's a rule that lets you change it (such as being able to change a full-attack action to an attack action if you only make a single attack).
No, the specific example is being tripped on a charge, and tripping generally stops movement. Just eating an AoO and taking damage wont end a charge without some sort of rider effect, or the AoO killing the charger.My apologies if it's already been answered, but now I'm confused about something I thought I knew...
If my movement provokes an attack of opportunity and it hits me, does that mean that I cannot move any further... that I lose the rest of my movement, if any?
Thank you.
One of my rangers was famous for purposefully provoking attacks of opportunity with movement in order to clear the way so that the rest of the party could move through those squares without risking AoO's. Just want to be sure I hadn't played that wrong all these years.