Doing my research it certainly seems like the witches spell list is best suited for debugging, however in actual practice it seems to not be the most effective. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I do not like the cackel, evil eye, misfortune, save-or-suck-spell/hex debuff chain, it takes 3 rounds to set up and it seems like you would be better off using those 3 rounds for 3 save-or-suck-spells/hexes without the debuff chain.
Others have also said they are not a huge fan of the debuff chain, if they can get misfortune off then they could have gotten slumber off, a better choice would be the spell Ill Omen, it doesn't allow a save and at level 5 nerfs 2 d20s, enough to cause a save reroll even if they can use one up by attacking.
I have been in groups before where the two handed fighter destroys any single target in one to two rounds max, three rounds for a witch just seems like an eternity.
So which type of witch do you recommend for a group which has no full casters other than a cleric.
I like the cold line of spells that the witch can access (and make better with winter witch archetype and prestige class)
They layer on debuffs with some damage with higher DCs and can eventually penetrate cold resistances and immunity
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You can only say anything useful about debuffing in the context of your party. Debuffing is a "step on the way", not the final solution to the encounter. Debuffing without an endgame leads nowhere.
- If your party fighter has no trouble hitting and destroying, but is a bit of a glass cannon himself, debuff enemy attacks.
- If your party fighter is very durable but has so-so strength, try debuffing enemy AC and movement so it can't step around the fighter.
- If your party fighter is a fan of polearms and attacks of opportunity, look at creating difficult terrain so enemies can't 5ft-step anymore.
- If there's a wizard or cleric with save or suck spells in the party, debuffing enemy saving throws becomes more valuable.
If you tell the cleric that if he delays until just after you, you'll use Evil Eye, he may start preparing more save or suck spells. For example, you cast Ill Omen; he casts Hold Person; and the fighter performs a Coup de Grace.
If you have a Cleric you have a good opportunity for a defuffing/SoS Witch.
How would you and the Cleric like to plan your strategy and builds in common?
A cleric can also be a decent debuffer and has also some SoS, so I think it could be rather cool to collaborate to make your strategy work faster.
In my WotW campaign the Antipaladin has an intimidate build and the Winter Witch relies a lot on SoS. With the Antipaladin lowering saves, the Witch rarely fails her hexes or spells, and she has a lower int than a Witch with her build should have (18 at level 11).
SoS strategies can be awesome if used in group and if you both have debuffs you can be the one who cast the SoS or the debuff alternatively, and also use only debuff spells and let the rest of the party do the killing.
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As Ascalaphus said, it's only a means to an end, not the end of itself. It's indeed a three-round affair if you want to do everything by yourself, but you also grease the wheels for your party members. Evil Eye is one of the strongest Hexes you have (let's talk about Slumber later). One Evil Eye should be enough for your party members to finish things off. If that's not the case, Misfortune and Cackle will seal the deal.
If you want a more buffing-focused Witch, the Shaman has a great (though wonky) spell list that's nicely split between a Cleric's buffs, some Druid-like nature-themed spells, and the Witch's offensive spell list. A buffing Witch is still possible depending on your choice of Patron, but I think debuffing comes more natural to them.
And finally, Slumber. Many people don't like it because it's unlimited use and and encounter-ender. Slumber is the only Hex that really is self-sufficient. As Ascalaphus said, most of the Hexes just help others, but this has an intrinsic and direct payoff. It's lame (IMHO), but I can't say that it's not effective. If you want a dedicated debuff Witch, Slumber is the way to go.
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You have to assess the situation. If there are a bunch of weak characters just cast an aoe acanist their weak saves.
A couple pretty strong apponents pick evil eye or misfortune then hit with the big attack. Misfortune is the best healing in the game because avoiding damage is far superior to healing it.
If you are major conflict that will last three rounds be patient and make sure the fight never comes beyond 3.
I'm a Fan of Evil Eye, Slumber, Cackle, and Icy Prison
Like Coldwater says Slumber can be a bummer to a group but What I do is I do not use it on Main enemies or single target fights. Most players hate boss fights that end in 1 Hex. But I use slumber to help control the number of enemies. Add ons and Mooks will get a slumber while the Main BBEG gets an evil eye. Later the mooks end up gets Icy Prison or blasted to smithereens with a Rime Cone of Cold.
For fights when you really need something to stick you have the option of the 3 round combo. For most fights, you just do some light debuffing and know that your spells are likely to land anyways and just cast them.
Yeah but you don't need that combo all the time, quickened Ill omen is particularly strong for debuffimg and casting in one round.
Split hex on slumber is pretty nice too.
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I don't really buy the three-round slumber combo. If the fight is hard enough that it isn't already over in round three, how come you have the freedom to choose beforehand what you're going to do for the coming three rounds?
You're a full caster, if it's a hard fight you should be doing much more than building up a three-round combo against a single enemy.
If you split hex evil eye a boss and his henchman, then misfortune them both then slumber them both it might be okay.
The reason people like that combo is because slumber can't be used on the guy if he makes his save so it's important it sticks, that's theory craft though and in practice you're better of doing something else.
Less so if you have a surprise round.
Notably a mythic witch can use evil eye and quickened I'll omen, amazing intiative for another standard action and slumber
Making it a one round combo, now if you're mythic that's a drop in the bucket but I thought worth mentioning.
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I'm really much more impressed with Evil Eye/Cackle than with the other hexes.
Run into monsters, Evil Eye to either lower its AC so it dies faster to the strikers, lower its saves so the other caster can SoS it, or lower its to-hit if the party is on the defensive. Reliable and flexible for a modest action and hex investment, and actually part of good team play.
Going for a three-round combo on your own is not thinking about how much harder a party working together can hit.
A thing that I think hasn't been mentioned: Witches get less spells per day, and hexes tend to be an unlimited resource. A witch with Evil Eye/Cackle will almost never lack a relevant thing to do, where she can only cast ill omen so many times. This issue is exacerbated by the breadth of the witch spell list offering so many utility options and being a prepared Caster. It can be difficult to know what spells or how many you'll need in a day. Evil Eye is probably better against casters than Ill Omen, and Evil eye is better in close quarters than a web cloud, for example.
So I like using spell slots on stuff like mage armor and fly while using the debuff goodness of hexes as my bread and butter for combat.
Evil eye is guaranteed for one round, too.
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So which type of witch do you recommend for a group which has no full casters other than a cleric.
Definitely debuff witch. You don't even need to bother with the three round combo. Evil Eye means you'll have something to do every round without spending resources. Only bring out the SoS spells for credible threats, otherwise spend your unlimited hexes on penalizing enemies. Grab Cackle and you'll keep those penalties going until the target is defeated.
Hexes are more effective against single powerful boss enemies than hordes, as an aside, but lowering the attack rolls on mooks who have yet to act is rarely a waste. And for dealing with things like hordes or swarms you will be better served by preparing AoE spells spell over things like Ill Omen. Burning Hands might not be the best spell it might literally be the only thing your party has that hurts a swarm of insects.
Hexes are a great way to boost options... a witch always has something to do
I have found that debuffing is ineffective at high levels, because the mobs make most saves - at least those that can take what fighters dish out in one round.
Debuffing is only ineffective if they get a save.
With cackle, Evil Eye's save is not very important.
Ill Omen doesn't allow a save, nor Misfortune does.
There are many ways a Witch can focus on debuffing and still being effective.
The fact that some of those debuffs can be Quickened makes it even more effective at high levels.
Uh, right. I should have checked it before.
That just means I have parked my witch for too long and she needs to see some game xD
I have found that debuffing is ineffective at high levels, because the mobs make most saves - at least those that can take what fighters dish out in one round.
If by mobs you mean nooks they are generally(APL-2) barring good luck on their part they should be failing most saves.
Even tough (APL+2) creatures fail saves if you boost the casting stat, and that is before you get into feats that boost the DC.