|
@Feral what about the Lore Warden and the ioun stone resonance that gave +2 CMB/CMD did you find over powered? Genuinely curious.I've played a number of Combat Maneuver builds in PFS from 1-12.
I've never had much trouble building PC that succeed on a 2 for any CMB vs 95 to 99% of the medium sized opponents.
Not to mention that a 50gp Potion of Enlarge Person will let you effect large creatures, if you specialized in a maneuver limited to your own size or smaller.
|
Tallow, I actually just made it to book 3 of iron gods and their have been a lot of weapon using foes for disarming. But honestly killing them is faster.
My point for CMB users is that you're giving up some damage to use that maneuver. And you're also sinking a lot of feats and money into being good at it. When your hyper specializing like that, don't you deserve to be as good as a specialized Barbarian is at killing things?
And unlike the barbarian, they risk their one thing not being possible depending on the enemy. I think it's fine considering that combat maneuvers are situational.
Here's the thing, my level 18 Rage Prophet, sacrificed a small amount of damage to be really good at trip and disarm. But he could hold his own with the straight Barbarian he adventured with. Sure the straight Barbarian did 350+ per round and my rage prophet did 250+ per round. But when 250+ killed the bad guy, any extra is superfluous. My rage prophet also did not sacrifice doing damage because of choosing to trip, because of Felling Smash and Greater Trip.
The point being, it's never a zero sum equation. It's not all damage or maneuvers. You can gave both.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
From the view of ordinary players, when we see changes, what we see primarily are nerfs.For the most part Paizo is pretty evenly split on upgrading and downgrading. In fact Im actually surprised more people have praised the upgrades because they are incredible.
When was the last time you saw a change to an existing item/spell/class/feat that was an upgrade? Crane Wing doesn't count as the final change was still a downgrade from the original.
|
From the view of ordinary players, when we see changes, what we see primarily are nerfs.For the most part Paizo is pretty evenly split on upgrading and downgrading. In fact Im actually surprised more people have praised the upgrades because they are incredible.When was the last time you saw a change to an existing item/spell/class/feat that was an upgrade? Crane Wing doesn't count as the final change was still a downgrade from the original.
I posted this a couple of pages back but it got lost in the noise...
For anyone wondering: here's a short list of a few things that are upgraded in Adventurer's Guide. This isn't an exhaustive list, just what I noticed on my first skim.
- Pathfinder Delver gets some new abilities.
- Mammoth Rider gets some extra mount choices.
- Cyphermage has extra choices for cypher lore.
- Pathfinder Savant is now a 10-level prestige class (not really an upgrade to the existing levels, but there are cool abilities at the new levels).
|
|
I want clear spindle to be banned, it takes a fun and dangerous ability out of the game and makes the game designers label some NPCs as neutral even when they are clearly evil. Sorry, I want dominate in PFS.
In fact, whenever a new edition of Pathfinder is created, spells like Protection from Evil and Remove Fear should not provide immunities.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I want clear spindle to be banned, it takes a fun and dangerous ability out of the game and makes the game designers label some NPCs as neutral even when they are clearly evil. Sorry, I want dominate in PFS.
In fact, whenever a new edition of Pathfinder is created, spells like Protection from Evil and Remove Fear should not provide immunities.
I, on the other hand, want a future supplement to have a *GREATER* Clear Spindle, that extends it's protection to *any* loss-of-agency effect on the user, including such things as Confusion, etc, etc.
Priced appropriately, of course, to make it fair, but still a bit more than what the current version does.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Which is possible amid change.Red to blue back to red to orange back to red to green back to red is stagnation. You know the answer you should plan for is red. It's stagnation.That is the exact opposite of growth and changeI'm not sure who brought up growth, but you are incorrect. It is still change.
Oh my god you big nerds this is hairsplitting and you both know it.
The Lore Warden was a bad archetype, but the fighter was a bad class. It's still a bad class, considering all the recobbling you have to do to make it work. Frankly, the Lore Warden's flaws are the direct consequence of its source material being basically unworkable. In order to be a decent archetype, it had to cheat matters a little.
So in my opinion, Paizo shouldn't be investing time "nerfing" the Lore Warden until they've invested time "fixing" the fighter himself. And honestly, to a newbie player who doesn't own all the various fighter-fixing splatbooks, they haven't done that yet. I know it's easier to nerf one thing than boost something else, but I don't feel like "easier" is always "better".
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So in my opinion, Paizo shouldn't be investing time "nerfing" the Lore Warden until they've invested time "fixing" the fighter himself. And honestly, to a newbie player who doesn't own all the various fighter-fixing splatbooks, they haven't done that yet. I know it's easier to nerf one thing than boost something else, but I don't feel like "easier" is always "better".
Fixing the fighter is beyond the perview of PFS.
Keeping the patch that we have (the lore warden) in pfs IS the perview of PFS.
Sure, but the patch isn't just for PFS—PFS is the only crowd beholden to it, but this patch is system-wide, isn't it?
Contributor
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sure, but the patch isn't just for PFS—PFS is the only crowd beholden to it, but this patch is system-wide, isn't it?
To the best of my knowledge, the Pathfinder Society Field Guide is not receiving errata, and newly sold copies will maintain the original text.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The fighter is NOT a bad class. That's a blatant falsehood.
far less false than the old lore warden being broken, overpowered or bad for the game.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
|
From the view of ordinary players, when we see changes, what we see primarily are nerfs.For the most part Paizo is pretty evenly split on upgrading and downgrading. In fact Im actually surprised more people have praised the upgrades because they are incredible.When was the last time you saw a change to an existing item/spell/class/feat that was an upgrade? Crane Wing doesn't count as the final change was still a downgrade from the original.
Chirugeon. Im not sure why they of all things fixed that archetype but Chirugeon. Am I going to debate how they fixed it as being incredibly odd? No.
|
|
From the view of ordinary players, when we see changes, what we see primarily are nerfs.For the most part Paizo is pretty evenly split on upgrading and downgrading. In fact Im actually surprised more people have praised the upgrades because they are incredible.When was the last time you saw a change to an existing item/spell/class/feat that was an upgrade? Crane Wing doesn't count as the final change was still a downgrade from the original.
Are we counting Campaign Clarifications? Because I can think of several examples off the top of my head where they took archetypes that were considered unplayable and improved them. (Spellscar Drifter and White-Haired Witch)
The fighter is NOT a bad class. That's a blatant falsehood.
The core Fighter has the least out-of-combat utility of any class - bad skill points, limited class skills, no special abilities. In combat, they're decent at dealing damage and surviving hits, but not really any better than Barbarians, Rangers or Paladins. It generally has worse saving throws than any of those guys too.
Whether that makes them 'bad' is debatable, but I'd struggle to call them 'good'.
Fighters modified with options from the newer books can be quite good, but that takes away from their main appeal - their simplicity.
|
|
From the view of ordinary players, when we see changes, what we see primarily are nerfs.For the most part Paizo is pretty evenly split on upgrading and downgrading. In fact Im actually surprised more people have praised the upgrades because they are incredible.When was the last time you saw a change to an existing item/spell/class/feat that was an upgrade? Crane Wing doesn't count as the final change was still a downgrade from the original.
Chirugeon. Im not sure why they of all things fixed that archetype but Chirugeon. Am I going to debate how they fixed it as being incredibly odd? No.
I missed this change. Do you mean chirurgeon? The Alchemist Archetype? What happened to Chirurgeon?
|
|
Are we counting Campaign Clarifications? Because I can think of several examples off the top of my head where they took archetypes that were considered unplayable and improved them. (Spellscar Drifter and White-Haired Witch)From the view of ordinary players, when we see changes, what we see primarily are nerfs.For the most part Paizo is pretty evenly split on upgrading and downgrading. In fact Im actually surprised more people have praised the upgrades because they are incredible.When was the last time you saw a change to an existing item/spell/class/feat that was an upgrade? Crane Wing doesn't count as the final change was still a downgrade from the original.
And Sword Saint (which eventually made the Golarion FAQ) and Kapenia Dancer.
EDIT: The Campaign Clarifications Document has been a very good thing. It has cleared up many, many questions that used to cause a lot of table variation.
|
|
How did the sword saint get playable?
Sword Saint Samurai: The sword saint samurai’s brutal slash ability replaces an ability that doesn’t exist. What should it alter and replace?
The sword saint samurai’s brutal slash should replace the second sentence of weapon expertise with “At 3rd level, the samurai selects either the katana or the wakizashi.” This alters weapon expertise. Brutal slash also replaces mounted archer.
That change first appeared in the campaign clarifications.
EDIT: Playable and good are not the same thing. It cleared up the biggest question of how the archetype works.
|
|
The fighter is NOT a bad class. That's a blatant falsehood.The core Fighter has the least out-of-combat utility of any class - bad skill points, limited class skills, no special abilities. In combat, they're decent at dealing damage and surviving hits, but not really any better than Barbarians, Rangers or Paladins. It generally has worse saving throws than any of those guys too.
Whether that makes them 'bad' is debatable, but I'd struggle to call them 'good'.
Fighters modified with options from the newer books can be quite good, but that takes away from their main appeal - their simplicity.
The versatility and the sheer number of feats you can take, allow you to make almost any crazy build you want.
The power of feats is huge.
|
|
The fighter is NOT a bad class. That's a blatant falsehood.The core Fighter has the least out-of-combat utility of any class - bad skill points, limited class skills, no special abilities. In combat, they're decent at dealing damage and surviving hits, but not really any better than Barbarians, Rangers or Paladins. It generally has worse saving throws than any of those guys too.
Whether that makes them 'bad' is debatable, but I'd struggle to call them 'good'.
Fighters modified with options from the newer books can be quite good, but that takes away from their main appeal - their simplicity.
The versatility and the sheer number of feats you can take, allow you to make almost any crazy build you want.
The power of feats is huge.
I agree, my PFS-compatible fighter in Carrion crown might not be a skill monster but it is kind of funny that he's below the party's average level, yet in a party with TWO oracles, a magus/wizard and an Alchemist, he's got the best will save (+12) with nothing more than Iron Will and a CoR +1
With the new training options odds are he's going to be the party face with BAB as his skill soon
We've talked about and we agree. There will be no more nerfs. Nothing will get corrected or fixed, ever!
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The versatility and the sheer number of feats you can take, allow you to make almost any crazy build you want.The power of feats is huge.
But there are now all sorts of ways to get essentially as many, if not more, feats as a non fighter.
Eg, Ranger and Zen Archer monk vs Archer fighter
Vigilante with its "several feats in one" options
Various classes (warpriest, Swashbuckler, etc etc) with both reasonable number of feats (less than fighter but not THAT much less) together with lots of class features worth at least a feat each.
As a class a fighter can make all sorts of martials. But its fairly hard to find an individual niche that can't be done better by non fighters.
|
|
And fixing the obvious rules kerfufle is not a boost. So we're looking at.. what getting boosted? The UC monk and the UC rogue.
I'll throw Spellscar Drifter out there again...they were granted their Challenge Damage with firearms in the Campaign Clarifications. Which was not fixing an obvious kerfuffle, as their previous rules had been quite clear, if suboptimal.
(Now this change screwed *my* Spellscar Drifter up, since she'd been built around whip fighting, but que sera sera. It allowed people other than me to play the archetype, so I was happy to eat the change for the greater good.)
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I missed this change. Do you mean chirurgeon? The Alchemist Archetype? What happened to Chirurgeon?From the view of ordinary players, when we see changes, what we see primarily are nerfs.For the most part Paizo is pretty evenly split on upgrading and downgrading. In fact Im actually surprised more people have praised the upgrades because they are incredible.When was the last time you saw a change to an existing item/spell/class/feat that was an upgrade? Crane Wing doesn't count as the final change was still a downgrade from the original.
Chirugeon. Im not sure why they of all things fixed that archetype but Chirugeon. Am I going to debate how they fixed it as being incredibly odd? No.
Its less a change and more that there is now another archetype that basically makes the concept really viable (Wasteland Blighter). Its really bizarre too because even looking at the Chirurgeon now why did it keep half its poison use abilities. Then if you stack that on with another alchemist archetype you can effectively grant a +6 bonus and 2 rerolls on spells like Dominate in a single round.
|
|
The fighter is NOT a bad class. That's a blatant falsehood.The core Fighter has the least out-of-combat utility of any class - bad skill points, limited class skills, no special abilities.
That's basically it. It isn't that the fighter is bad at combat, it's that combat isn't everything, especially in PFS.
Regarding special abilities, I like how simple the fighter is. Wish the spellcasters had an equal. I hate having to remember a page, or two, of special abilities in addition to the many spells I can cast.
As for Fixing the Fighter, a simple option for the Fighter to able to take "6 extra skill points OR a bonus combat feat," at each bonus combat feat class feature, that would solve the problem.
Could even require that 4 of those skill points were spent on Swim, Ride, Acrobatics, and Climb, leaving only 2 extra skill points to choose as you wanted, that would be plenty - it's those 4 skills that screw over the fighter the most, anyway.
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
The fighter is NOT a bad class. That's a blatant falsehood.The core Fighter has the least out-of-combat utility of any class - bad skill points, limited class skills, no special abilities.That's basically it. It isn't that the fighter is bad at combat, it's that combat isn't everything, especially in PFS.
Regarding special abilities, I like how simple the fighter is. Wish the spellcasters had an equal. I hate having to remember a page, or two, of special abilities in addition to the many spells I can cast.
As for Fixing the Fighter, a simple option for the Fighter to able to take "6 extra skill points OR a bonus combat feat," at each bonus combat feat class feature, that would solve the problem.
Could even require that 4 of those skill points were spent on Swim, Ride, Acrobatics, and Climb, leaving only 2 extra skill points to choose as you wanted, that would be plenty - it's those 4 skills that screw over the fighter the most, anyway.
Well, the fighter does have the bonus feats to spend the occasional regular feat on something like Cunning from the Villain Codex. It gives you one additional skill point per hit die, no questions asked.
|
|
Spending a feat on Cunning gets you one more skill without any other bonuses to it. And instead of that one skill point, you could have any other feat that gives you something useful. (Not that there are many that matter.)
And an extra skill point adds up...say you get cunning, toughness and fast learner, that's 2 skill points/hp a level vs 1 hp or skill point
Add the right traits and you could have a couple class skills not normal to a fighter. Add in the versatile training option instead of a weapon group, sudden fighter mcstabbyguy might be a good back up social character and a lot harder to bluff (sense motive for example) or doesn't need to put a point in riding (or whatever) every level
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's a lot of investment to have less skills than a slayer and a way less utility than a ranger (and certainly not more combat effectiveness).
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
And an extra skill point adds up...say you get cunning, toughness and fast learner, that's 2 skill points/hp a level vs 1 hp or skill point
At a cost of three feats. I already said one feat was a bad investment. Three is just good money after bad.
Add in two traits and you've either used up all of them or spent another feat on them. Just more into the sinkhole.
|
|
And an extra skill point adds up...say you get cunning, toughness and fast learner, that's 2 skill points/hp a level vs 1 hp or skill pointAt a cost of three feats. I already said one feat was a bad investment. Three is just good money after bad.
Add in two traits and you've either used up all of them or spent another feat on them. Just more into the sinkhole.
Funny, the fights I avoided in scenarios, the out of combat contribution, typically as a linguist, and skill checks to aid others would say otherwise
Maybe it's not your style but it worked for other players.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe it's not your style but it worked for other players.
And it works just as fine with rangers and slayers too. Often better.
*says the man with the barbarian trained in diplomacy*
|
|
Funny, the fights I avoided in scenarios, the out of combat contribution, typically as a linguist, and skill checks to aid others would say otherwiseMaybe it's not your style but it worked for other players.
To accomplish the same things (or better) I had to rework my -1 to Slayer (vs. TWF Fighter) and take a dip into Cleric.
Really wish I could have stayed Fighter, but it wasn't nearly flexible enough with skill points or options
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Funny, the fights I avoided in scenarios, the out of combat contribution, typically as a linguist, and skill checks to aid others would say otherwise
Maybe it's not your style but it worked for other players.
It's not a matter of style, it's a matter of "does the fighter chassis get me the best bang for my buck in making the character work the way i see them working" ? The versatility of the fighter doesn't matter that much because you're not playing THE fighter you're playing A fighter. When you compare what A fighter solidifies into vs what another class could do, the fighter usually comes up short. That's been a problem since core (the ranger is better at the types of fighting there is a ranger style for) , but it's gone into hyperdrive as the options have expanded.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fixing the fighter is not about getting a few more skill points at each level. The issue is that at low level, the fighter is very dependent on their armor, which penalizes their lack of skills in the form of an armor check penalty. The fighter desperately needs lots of skill points available at 1st level, at least enough to put a rank in Acrobatics, Swim, Climb, and Ride so their armor doesn't make them useless.
That said, forcing the fighter to gain these via the traditional INT and favored class bonuses, just serves to further impair the fighter, as they really can't afford to have a high INT just for skill points, or to waste favored class bonuses on skill points.
To fix the Fighter, at a bear minimum, they need to always count as having ranks in Acrobatics, Ride, Climb, and Swim, without actually having to spend skill points on it. Beyond those skills, 2+INT per level is plenty to spend on OTHER skills.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe it's not your style but it worked for other players.And it works just as fine with rangers and slayers too. Often better.
*says the man with the barbarian trained in diplomacy*
THUNDERLIPS! IS A DANGEROUSLY CURIOUS MAN OF INFLUENCE.
Venture-Agent, Minnesota
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well I just checked things.. the resonance powers on the Ioun stones have already been 'updated' on hero lab. Even if you didn't have the guide in place
I doubt the folks at LWD have some inside tract but they are assuming it's a done deed I guess
Yep. So am I. I'm just waiting for the notice on when we can sell these back at full price.
Sigh.
Hmm