I think I can safely say that we PF fans love PF in part because of its huge variety of character options. I'm relieved to see that I'm not the only one who sees so many of the archetypes as crummy options, but I'm saddened to read this thread and see that the issue is so widespread.
I'm wondering how aware Paizo is about these concerns. Obviously game design is not simple, and there is often a fine line between a lateral-power level option and something overpowered, but it appears they err too often on the side of caution by making the archetype options subpar.
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I would pay good money to see a "Archetypes: Unchained" book that revamps a ton of them into better-thought-out versions!
It'd be neat to see some a la carte "Archetype Traits" that one could swap out individual class abilities for alternatives without having to fully invest in an archetype. This is essentially what I offer my players in my home games as a fix for some of the archetypes that have some fun options mixed with bad options.
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Many of the cleric archetypes are a case of 'So near but yet so far.'
The Ecclesitheurge is a classic case of this. Acouple of minor tweaks and it would have been worthy IMO
Weapons - no change
Armour - no change but WIS to AC
Skills - no change
Channel- Ditch completely
BOF - Ditch completely
Bonded Holy Symbol - Cut all the jibber jabber = functions as Wizard's bonded but dont get till 3rd level.
Domain mastery - Pick 1 domain/subdomain spell list as prepared, 1 domain spell list as swapable and can select any 2 lower and any 2 higher domain powers from deity list.
See, that would make it worse for me. I think Blessing of the Faithful is an important low-level option for a cleric that isn't supposed to be effective in melee. While I agree that some armour bonus is called for, I'd go for Cha to AC instead of Wis - this isn't a monk or a kensai magus that needs to invest in physical stats and it would be in line with other two-stat full casters like the psychic. I think Domain Mastery works fine as-is and am not keen on ditching Channel.
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I would like to see the magical child and spirit dancer archetypes improved. I want to play both because of the rp potential but the mechanics are pretty weak.
I really just want a Medium Archetype that can change what spirit it's channeling with a ritual that takes like 5 minutes, and doesn't have to track rounds/day. Switching spirits based on what comes up is a great idea, but the spirit dancer is never going to be able to channel the Trickster in order to attend a fancy garden party, because parties take more than 50 rounds.
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The Picaroon is a class I very much want to play, but would greatly benefit from a line of text that states "a picaroon can reload a one-handed firearm even if the other hand is holding a rapier (or other applicable Picaroon/Swashbuckler weapon). As it is, the most common advice for playing it is to level dip into Juggler.
I would like to see the magical child and spirit dancer archetypes improved. I want to play both because of the rp potential but the mechanics are pretty weak.I really just want a Medium Archetype that can change what spirit it's channeling with a ritual that takes like 5 minutes, and doesn't have to track rounds/day. Switching spirits based on what comes up is a great idea, but the spirit dancer is never going to be able to channel the Trickster in order to attend a fancy garden party, because parties take more than 50 rounds.
You could do that with the Channel Spirit (Trickster) feat from the Haunted Heroes Handbook, but that feat has a nasty downside in that you lose control of yourself once you decide to end the effects of that feat.
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The archetypes that bother me the most are the ones that fail to make charisma based versions of their classes.
Overwhelming Soul: Charisma based Kinetisist. It is MAD and loses so much attack power that there is really no point in running one even if you are using a Charisma race.
Eldritch Scion: This one works a bit better than overwhelming soul, but the fact that you have to use a swift action every other turn just to keep your bloodline abilities going hurts it a lot.
Overwhelming Soul: Charisma based Kinetisist. It is MAD and loses so much attack power that there is really no point in running one even if you are using a Charisma race.
I'm currently kicking around a Gathlain Overwhelming Soul, and I think it could be decent. Being locked out of pumping your defense and any utility talent that costs burn is bad, but I think if you build the thing as an aerokineticist that wants to keep their distance while flying it could work. That FCB is really appealing.
The Picaroon is a class I very much want to play, but would greatly benefit from a line of text that states "a picaroon can reload a one-handed firearm even if the other hand is holding a rapier (or other applicable Picaroon/Swashbuckler weapon). As it is, the most common advice for playing it is to level dip into Juggler.
The Picaroon is just one in a whole family of similar archetypes that offer some gunslinger class features, but if you actually try to build and play such a character it doesn't function effectively (or at all). Even if it did have the ability to reload a firearm without a free hand, the Picaroon has no way of acquiring a firearm at low levels and its firearm damage doesn't scale so by the time you can actually afford one it's already obsolete. On top of this it's ludicrously feat-starved. This archetype fails in many independent ways, and sadly this is pretty typical for firearm-based archetypes. It's still better than the infamous Holy Gun.
There's a difference between being capable of doing something, and being competent at that thing. Pretty much every non-gunslinger firearm archetype fails to recognize this distinction. They are capable of using firearms, often in new and novel ways, but there are key practicality issues from letting them be effective with this fighting style.
The problem I see with the gun-using archetypes is that they seem to be throwing a bajillion bonus feats at you at low levels. In a few cases this has lead to decent dips (hello Musketeer Swashbuckler, not to be confused with the much less attractive Musketeer Cavalier) but it doesn't really address the underlying issues that make them unviable as a stand-alone class for firearm usage. If you look at the good firearm archetypes, you'll find that some of them aren't even designed for use with firearms. Things like the Eldritch Archer Magus stand out because they offer a way to enhance the effectiveness of your ranged attack routine, which is exactly the kind of class feature you need when building a gun user! We already have a million and one ways to get the obligatory feats and feat-equivalents through dipping, what these archetypes need to offer are unique class features that make the fighting style effective, rather than the nuts and bolts that are quite frankly interchangeable. This is also why people talk Juggler and not Picaroon - the nuts and bolts feats can be obtained any number of ways, but a class feature that lets you TWF with firearms is a rare thing indeed.
I just love the aesthetics of the Picaroon so much. It just needs so much work to get it to where it should be.
All the Arcanist archetypes. They simply use too many arcane exploits for what they offer in return.
All the Arcanist archetypes. They simply use too many arcane exploits for what they offer in return.
Blood Arcanist is a viable option, so are Twilight Sage, Brown-fur Transmuter & Harrow Student. Maybe Occultist. Blade Adept is a bad idea IMO but people can be seduced by the style over the substance, I agree with you there. That's near half the archetypes being useful which is about typical.
All the Arcanist archetypes. They simply use too many arcane exploits for what they offer in return.Blood Arcanist is a viable option, so are Twilight Sage, Brown-fur Transmuter & Harrow Student. Maybe Occultist. Blade Adept is a bad idea IMO but people can be seduced by the style over the substance, I agree with you there. That's near half the archetypes being useful which is about typical.
BrownFur is great at buffing others and Occultist at summoning. That is fair. Twilight sage would be great if it gave up a lvl 3 exploit, instead of a lvl 1, so Extra Exploits could be taken at lvl 1. Blood takes both a 1 and a 3, so definitely pass for me.
You get what you pay for. Blood gives a lot and takes a lot. Twilight sage is slightly more iffy to me, but due to the consume spells being lost rather than the exploits. If anything a basic arcanist gets more exploits than their arcane reservoir can easily support and losing some is tolerable.
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Three words:
Totem. Warrior. Barbarian.
We still don't even know if it does anything at all.
Three words:
Totem. Warrior. Barbarian.
We still don't even know if it does anything at all.
What does that one even do?
You get what you pay for. Blood gives a lot and takes a lot. Twilight sage is slightly more iffy to me, but due to the consume spells being lost rather than the exploits. If anything a basic arcanist gets more exploits than their arcane reservoir can easily support and losing some is tolerable.
We must agree to disagree on blood.
The value of Twilight is that rather than exchange one resource for another with Consume Spells, the Arcanist is getting a net gain of additional resources from Consume Life. If you want to pour your reservoir like water then Twilight is even better than Font.
Also looking at Consume Life, does that count as Exploit? I.e. could you take the feat Extra Exploits at first level? interesting question. May take a second look at Twilight Arcanist.
Overwhelming Soul Kineticist
Brute Vigilante
Eldritch Scion Magus
Heck, I wish Eldritch Archer wasn't overpoweredly broken. I kept feeling like it was written by someone who seems to not understand how the magus is balanced. "Oh, this gish class that gets amazing spell action economy at the cost of being strictly a melee fighter? Let's just make them ranged. That's balanced, right?"
Overwhelming Soul: Charisma based Kinetisist. It is MAD and loses so much attack power that there is really no point in running one even if you are using a Charisma race.I'm currently kicking around a Gathlain Overwhelming Soul, and I think it could be decent. Being locked out of pumping your defense and any utility talent that costs burn is bad, but I think if you build the thing as an aerokineticist that wants to keep their distance while flying it could work. That FCB is really appealing.
The tipping point for me was when I realized that if I took a standard kineticist and had him burn himself at the start of each day so that he has the same number of hit points as an Overwhelming soul he is still superior in almost every way. This is because (if I remember correctly) an overwhelming soul only gains +1 damage per burn while a standard kineticist gains +2 damage per burn in addition to having all those defensive and utility abilities. It gets worse when you take into account all those stat bonuses that you lose...
The only advantage an overwhelming soul has is that he actually has charisma skills, but the cost is wayyyy high.
Spell Warrior Skald.
Some of its abilities are awesome! It trades out the normal bard song for a song that grants the party magic bonuses to their weapons, meaning it can stack with other bards'/skalds' songs if you went that route.
But half of its archetype powers focus on counterspelling, which is garbagio. Admittedly in the higher levels it makes counterspelling almost viable but considering taking nearly any other action is probably a better idea, it still doesn't cut the mustard for me.
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Spell Warrior Skald.
Some of its abilities are awesome! It trades out the normal bard song for a song that grants the party magic bonuses to their weapons, meaning it can stack with other bards'/skalds' songs if you went that route.
But half of its archetype powers focus on counterspelling, which is garbagio. Admittedly in the higher levels it makes counterspelling almost viable but considering taking nearly any other action is probably a better idea, it still doesn't cut the mustard for me.
At 10th, you don't need to spend standard actions to counterspell. You can take any other action and still mess with the caster's day.
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it does literally nothing trades out no abilities and grants no extra abilitiesWhat does that one even do?Three words:
Totem. Warrior. Barbarian.
We still don't even know if it does anything at all.
Plus side, stacks with everything.
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Maybe Occultist.
The Occultist Arcanist is one that could be improved, I think, by not sharing a name with an entire other class it is distinct from.
Either that or we can get an "Arcanist" archetype for the Occultist to make things maximally confusing, but symmetrical.
Yeah the occultist Arcanist has confused me so many times because of the name xD
Should we then add a Swashbuckler archetype named "Rogue"?
I'm certainly not opposed, alternatively these are archetypes that could be improved with the addition an adjective.
A "thief" archetype for the rogue would be nice;)
All the Arcanist archetypes. They simply use too many arcane exploits for what they offer in return.Blood Arcanist is a viable option, so are Twilight Sage, Brown-fur Transmuter & Harrow Student. Maybe Occultist. Blade Adept is a bad idea IMO but people can be seduced by the style over the substance, I agree with you there. That's near half the archetypes being useful which is about typical.
How would you feel about a Blade Adept as a choice for an Eldritch Knight?
Metamorph Alchemist is #1 for me. Such a cool idea, but should have alchemy returned.I actually really like Metamorph Alchemist. It can have an insanely high STR bonus, and is a truly martial shapeshifter that I have always wanted. It has a lot of good options, and still can take discoveries. Listing spells and bombs does make it a lower tier than a normal alchemist, but it's a better fighter.
It's likely going to be outclassed by the shapeshifter coming soon, but maybe not. As it is, it's the only character that can "wild shape" from first level.
Hold on, I don't mean to inject into the discussion, but what is this about a shapeshifter coming out soon? What is the source? I have been dying to play a proper shapeshifter, since I looked at the meta-morph, but the mechanical side of things was just a bit too lack-luster for me.
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You might want to look at the discussion regarding Ultimate Wilderness.
How would you feel about a Blade Adept as a choice for an Eldritch Knight?All the Arcanist archetypes. They simply use too many arcane exploits for what they offer in return.Blood Arcanist is a viable option, so are Twilight Sage, Brown-fur Transmuter & Harrow Student. Maybe Occultist. Blade Adept is a bad idea IMO but people can be seduced by the style over the substance, I agree with you there. That's near half the archetypes being useful which is about typical.
<nods>
That's what the blade adept is useful for, IMO. Inspired blade swashbuckler 1 (Fencing Grace for Dex to damage at 1st level)/blade adept arcanist 6 (rapier black blade, Spellstrike and Extra Arcanist Exploit (Eldritch Blade))/eldritch knight; you don't get Spell Combat to full attack when casting a spell, but you get more/higher level spells and a much better spell list.
Alternately, human or half-elf or half-orc fighter 1 (Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip) or Ancestral Arms (Whip) or City Raised, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Whip))/blade arcanist 6 (whip "black blade," Whip Mastery, Spellstrike, Extra Arcanist Exploit (Eldritch Blade))/eldritch knight to Spellstrike at 15 ft reach.
How would you feel about a Blade Adept as a choice for an Eldritch Knight?All the Arcanist archetypes. They simply use too many arcane exploits for what they offer in return.Blood Arcanist is a viable option, so are Twilight Sage, Brown-fur Transmuter & Harrow Student. Maybe Occultist. Blade Adept is a bad idea IMO but people can be seduced by the style over the substance, I agree with you there. That's near half the archetypes being useful which is about typical.
I like Blade Adept/Eldritch Knight in theory but in practice to get Blade Adept goodies as an EK, an inordinate number of feats need to get used to gain access to them. There are just too many Arcane Exploits that need to be given up to pick up the archetype. The softness of Diverse Training doesn't do anything to help the situation.
Three words:
Totem. Warrior. Barbarian.
We still don't even know if it does anything at all.
I always assumed that the original intention behind the Totem Warrior was that it was meant to be a requirement to take the totem rage powers.
That obviously isn't what the archetype is in it's current form, but I figured that was what it was meant to be.
I second Scrollmaster. I love mine but the rules are super ambiguous which means I have to do a lot of dithering and explaining. Takes a lot of the fun out.
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Empyreal Knight is a blatant and embarrassing downgrade to the paladin
Who did actually think that a bonus language was equivalent to Divine Grace
I second Scrollmaster. I love mine but the rules are super ambiguous which means I have to do a lot of dithering and explaining. Takes a lot of the fun out.
I would love to play a Mindblade Magus but am reluctant for similar reasons.
Empyreal Knight is a blatant and embarrassing downgrade to the paladin
Who did actually think that a bonus language was equivalent to Divine Grace
I think the designer have commented on that one that the bonus language alone wasn't meant to replace the ability by itself but the combinations of all the abilities replaced were suppose to. Still I kind of agree but now you can take a feat and get divine grace back so its not as bad.
Divine protection is what I was thinking of but looking it up on psrd it once per day. did they errata that?
I could of swore the one in my copy works differently.
Ah ok ninja with my answer ty
The problem with Empyreal Knight is less losing Divine Grace, and more that the Celestial Ally ability is behind the curve when you get it and is relegated to utility purposes for most of your adventuring career. If Celestial Ally kept scaled like the Summoner's SLA (even with its restricted list of creatures) the archetype would have been really solid.
I think the designer have commented on that one that the bonus language alone wasn't meant to replace the ability by itself but the combinations of all the abilities replaced were suppose to. Still I kind of agree but now you can take a feat and get divine grace back so its not as bad.Empyreal Knight is a blatant and embarrassing downgrade to the paladin
Who did actually think that a bonus language was equivalent to Divine Grace
The argument in principle for achetypes is okay but in this case the other resistances and the underpowered Summon barely make up for giving up Lay on Hands + Mercies in the first place
Yeah no after the divine grace change I agree. I would probably not ever use that archetype except maybe in npc fashion.