|
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hi everyone. I want to ask a question about Silence Spells Will Save. I Searched message board and i found some answers but my gms in society didnt accept these answers because they are not RULES or OFFICIAL ANSWERS.
I thought and understood from spell description is "SR and Will Save is only for not carry silence spell effect with unwilling creature" but my GMs thought and understood from spell description is "Any creature in Silence spell affected area can roll a will save for speaking". Which one is true, please if you know any rule or official description about this subject, share with me.
I found these answers but unfortunately these are all unofficial answers:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n9n1?Silence-and-SR
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2myfu?Silence
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kevi?Silence-Spell
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tzf7?Silence-Spell
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Your dm's are wrong, but you're not going to get anything changing their minds.
Silence
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/silence.html#silence
I've always played it as saves are only if you try to cast it on the person or something on them (an attended object).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If we read the text of the spell it becomes quite obvious (to me).
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature's possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects.
The target line of the spell specifies the target can be a creature. Only targets of a spell get a save. This is even made more clear in the spell when it says "An unwilling creature can attempt a will save and use SR". Only the target gets the benefit of attempting a save or having spell resistance.
It is a time honored tradition to cast silence on the fighter and send him after the spell caster.
Cast it on an allied martial, then have him make oatmeal of enemy casters.
Your GM is mistaken. The only saves that occur are when targeting an unwilling creature, or an object in their possession. The spell says as much. That's as clear and official as it gets.
|
So, you wouldn't allow a will to disbelieve then? It is an illusion (figment) after all.I would give a concentration check for:Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Affected by a non-damaging spell while casting DC of the spell + spell levelAnd then regardless of the check, they have interacted with the illusion and can make a will save to disbelieve. If they make both the concentration check and the will save, I would allow the spell to be cast like normal.
It's a glamer, not a figment. It also does not give a will save to disbelieve. If you're in the area covered by the spell, you cannot make any sound, period.
Glamer, figment, doesn't matter. The will to disbelieve is a general rule for Illusions
No. That is not a rule. Spells have a line for saving throws that say exactly how they work. Furthermore the two are vastly different things.
Figment: Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation.
Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
The silence spell (a glamer) does not make you THINK the room is quiet. It actually makes the room quiet. Thats why there's no will save.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is a time honored tradition to cast silence on the fighter and send him after the spell caster.
Absolutely.... a classic stretching back literally years!
Absolutely.... a classic stretching back literally years!It is a time honored tradition to cast silence on the fighter and send him after the spell caster.
decades
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you continued on to the next sentence of my post
It was read. My point stands. What you said is a general rule is not a general rule, at all.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's not a specific rule for any subschool of illusion. Not figments, glamers, patterns, phantasms, or shadow spells, in fact applies to all of them. It sounds a lot like a general rule for Illusions to me.
It's actually a general rule for the Will (disbelief) save type. This is where what that is defined.
Otherwise, you could go around disbelieving invisibility (or simulacrum) and the whole system would fall apart.
|
Ultimate Intrigue makes it clear that there's no general rule for disbelieving any and all illusions, but that it's spells from particular subschools that have text saying they can be disbelieved:
Subschools: The three most easily confused subschools of illusion are figment, glamer, and phantasm.
(...)
Disbelief and Interaction: All three of the subschools above tend to have saving throw lines that say “Will disbelief,” but they differ in how those saving throws apply.
It's a tendency, it's not a general rule at all. Invisibility for example is a glamer that doesn't follow the tendency.
Both the Saving Throw line and the description point that the saving throw is just to resist the spell being centered on you.
Some people (myslef included) tend to forget/forgo that the silence combo is supossed to have a minor drawback.
For the spell duration Mr. Silenced Fighter is temporary:
Deafened: A deafened character cannot hear. He takes a –4 penalty on initiative checks, automatically fails Perception checks based on sound, takes a –4 penalty on opposed Perception checks, and has a 20% chance of spell failure when casting spells with verbal components. Characters who remain deafened for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
Deafened is a condition that needs to be imposed directly upon a creature. The silence spell makes no mention of bestowing that particular condition upon characters and creatures in its area, so it doesn't.
Though it seems counter-intuitive, characters in the area aren't deaf, they are merely unable to hear anything due to the absence of ambient noise (which is being suppressed by magic). It's no different then a character standing in a vacuum not being deaf. They just aren't. It's a product of their environment, not their ability to hear (or lack there of).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Though it seems counter-intuitive, characters in the area aren't deaf, they are merely unable to hear anything due to the absence of ambient noise
Characters in darkness are not blind, they are merely unable to see anything due to the absence of ambient light. However, the rules clearly tell us that they are 'effectively blind', and thus subject to the blind condition.
Characters that can't hear are effectively deaf, and thus subject to the deafened condition. In some cases, the penalties for being deaf are subsumed by sound being cancelled (spell failure percentage doesn't matter when those spells simply can't be cast. Other penalties would apply. Sound based perception checks are automatically failed, and the initiative penalty does apply. The silence spell doesn't make the creatures deaf, any more than a darkness spell makes creatures blind, but it does create an environment that imposes that condition.
Characters in darkness are not blind, they are merely unable to see anything due to the absence of ambient light. However, the rules clearly tell us that they are 'effectively blind', and thus subject to the blind condition.
Though it seems counter-intuitive, characters in the area aren't deaf, they are merely unable to hear anything due to the absence of ambient noise
And you're right about that BECAUSE the rules clearly tell us that they are 'effectively blind.' The same is not true of silence.
Characters that can't hear are effectively deaf, and thus subject to the deafened condition. In some cases, the penalties for being deaf are subsumed by sound being cancelled (spell failure percentage doesn't matter when those spells simply can't be cast. Other penalties would apply. Sound based perception checks are automatically failed, and the initiative penalty does apply. The silence spell doesn't make the creatures deaf, any more than a darkness spell makes creatures blind, but it does create an environment that imposes that condition.
Characters that can't hear due to silence are effectively deaf (per the English definition), just not deafened (per the game's condition). :)
The rules don't give an environmental rules for silent area other than the spell), they do give rules for dark areas. That is because dark areas are pretty common, silent areas not so much. It is reasonable to infer that the same logic applies though.
Conditions can be imposed by spell, but spells are not the only way that you can be effected by a condition, the environment you are in being prime example.
I suspect you would certainly agree that a character would automatically fail any sound based perception check in a silent area, even though the spell doesn't say that (while it does say no sound, it doesn't mention perception checks at all) because being able to make a sound based perception check in an area of silence would be nonsensical.
So the only distinction that we are talking about is the -4 to initiative. Personally, I could indeed see ignoring that since one, it really only makes sense to for the first round of combat, I don't see not hearing slowing you down once you are already in a fight, and more importantly, there is a fair chance that if one character is in the silence most of them are, and if everyone has a -4 penalty then effectively no one does.
That said, a character that is in an area of silence should definitely be considered to be deafened, as should any character who cannot hear for whatever reason.
The advantage of casting a Silence spell on a location or unattended object is that spell resistance and saving throws do not apply.
The disadvantage of doing that is that anyone affected by that spell can simply move out of the affected area to escape the effect. A creature directly affected by a Silence spell does not have that option.
That's why you cast silence on your Tetori monk friend.
|
The rules don't give an environmental rules for silent area other than the spell), they do give rules for dark areas. That is because dark areas are pretty common, silent areas not so much. It is reasonable to infer that the same logic applies though.
Conditions can be imposed by spell, but spells are not the only way that you can be effected by a condition, the environment you are in being prime example.
I suspect you would certainly agree that a character would automatically fail any sound based perception check in a silent area, even though the spell doesn't say that (while it does say no sound, it doesn't mention perception checks at all) because being able to make a sound based perception check in an area of silence would be nonsensical.
So the only distinction that we are talking about is the -4 to initiative. Personally, I could indeed see ignoring that since one, it really only makes sense to for the first round of combat, I don't see not hearing slowing you down once you are already in a fight, and more importantly, there is a fair chance that if one character is in the silence most of them are, and if everyone has a -4 penalty then effectively no one does.
That said, a character that is in an area of silence should definitely be considered to be deafened, as should any character who cannot hear for whatever reason.
I can see both Ravendork and Dave's point.
So let me play devil's advocate here Dave.
If a spellcaster is in an area of silence he can use Silent Spell feat with no issues, correct?
If a spellcaster is deaf and he uses Silent Spell feat, does he take a 20% chance of failure?
The rules don't give an environmental rules for silent area other than the spell), they do give rules for dark areas. That is because dark areas are pretty common, silent areas not so much. It is reasonable to infer that the same logic applies though.
Conditions can be imposed by spell, but spells are not the only way that you can be effected by a condition, the environment you are in being prime example.
I suspect you would certainly agree that a character would automatically fail any sound based perception check in a silent area, even though the spell doesn't say that (while it does say no sound, it doesn't mention perception checks at all) because being able to make a sound based perception check in an area of silence would be nonsensical.
So the only distinction that we are talking about is the -4 to initiative. Personally, I could indeed see ignoring that since one, it really only makes sense to for the first round of combat, I don't see not hearing slowing you down once you are already in a fight, and more importantly, there is a fair chance that if one character is in the silence most of them are, and if everyone has a -4 penalty then effectively no one does.
That said, a character that is in an area of silence should definitely be considered to be deafened, as should any character who cannot hear for whatever reason.
I can see both Ravendork and Dave's point.
So let me play devil's advocate here Dave.
If a spellcaster is in an area of silence he can use Silent Spell feat with no issues, correct?
If a spellcaster is deaf and he uses Silent Spell feat, does he take a 20% chance of failure?
No, because then the spell wouldn't have a vocal component, and thus the spellcaster takes no penalties from being deaf when spellcasting.
It's why the Deaf oracle is actually not too bad of a thing.
I can see both Ravendork and Dave's point.
It's Ravingdork.
decadesAbsolutely.... a classic stretching back literally years!It is a time honored tradition to cast silence on the fighter and send him after the spell caster.
I usually cast it on one of the fighter's belongings rather than on the fighter, so they can drop/throw the silenced item if needed.
Yup. Silence on the Deaf Oracle, who then casts Grace and proceeds to get up close and personal with the enemy spellcaster.
Being in an area of silence is not the same as being deaf. If that was true then having the silent Metamagics feat would still force penalties on the caster.
If you actually have the deaf condition the silent Metamagic feat won't stop the deaf penalty.
PS: My phone autocorrect is capitalizing Metamagic.
decadesAbsolutely.... a classic stretching back literally years!It is a time honored tradition to cast silence on the fighter and send him after the spell caster.
And it used to be a fifteen foot radius. Things change.
TL;DR how I adjudicate the silence spell at my table: The target and only the target gets an initial saving throw. IF the target fails/forgoes the saving throw, then everyone else in the emanation is silent & deaf (dictionary definitions; not conditions) while within the area IF they fail their saving throw while within the emanation.
My interpretation:
Silence text per ArchivesofNethys.com, with commentary:
Upon the casting of this spell [and the target failing its saving throw], complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is [seems to be] stopped: Conversation is impossible [for the target], spells with verbal components cannot be cast [by the target], and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area [The target cannot perceive any sound]. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any.
[If the target succeeded on its saving throw, there is no silence.]
[The following assumes the target failed/yielded its saving throw]
Items in a creature's possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects. [if they fail a saving throw upon entering the silence, or in the case of a mobile silence spell, upon the silence encompassing them.]
Precedent:
Zone of Truth is also a second level spell with an area of effect emanation and a Will save to negate.
Zone of Truth text per ArchivesofNethys.com:
Creatures within the emanation area (or those who enter it) can't speak any deliberate and intentional lies. Each potentially affected creature is allowed a save to avoid the effects when the spell is cast or when the creature first enters the emanation area. Affected creatures are aware of this enchantment. Therefore, they may avoid answering questions to which they would normally respond with a lie, or they may be evasive as long as they remain within the boundaries of the truth. Creatures who leave the area are free to speak as they choose.
Applications:
Silence is targeted at an area or object. A locomotive is signaling with its air horn 1/4 mile away: The area around the target is silenced. If Joey enters the area, Joey gets a Will save. If Joey succeeds on his Will save, Joey can speak and Joey can hear the locomotive. If Joey fails his Will save, Joey cannot speak and Joey cannot hear. Joey cannot even feel the vibrations as the locomotive passes near. Mary was in the area when the spell was cast. Mary gets a Will save. If Mary succeeds on her Will save, Mary can speak and Mary can hear the locomotive. If Mary fails her Will save, Mary cannot speak, Mary cannot hear and Mary cannot feel the vibrations from the locomotive passing near.
Silence is cast on Joey. Joey succeeds on his Will save. The silence spell never happened.
Silence is cast on Joey. Joey fails or foregoes his Will save. Joey cannot speak. Joey cannot hear. Joey cannot feel the vibrations from the locomotive. Mary also gets a Will save if she was within the area, or if she enters the area. You can see where this is going.
I can see where the verbiage from silence is poorly written & can be misleading, especially if one knows how it's been applied in previous versions. The Zone of Truth verbiage is MUCH tidier. Short of an official ruling, I hope this clarifies the issue.
It is a powerful spell if used intelligently. I can only recall using it twice in combat due to the one round casting time.
But I still can't quite get over the fact that a third level abjuration spell can, as its entire effect, provide 20 points of protection from sonic for one individual, but a second level illusion(glamer) - which, remember, "cannot produce any real effect" - provides infinite protection from sonic for an entire party, as well as completely nerfing a spellcaster who can't move out of the area and doesn't have the right magic item in hand.
If you use Resist Energy (Communal) v Sonic, it might only protect from a finite amount of sonic damage, but it has the major advantage that you can still use spells, bardic performance, etc. In the majority of encounters, silence inconveniences PCs more than monsters. And Resist Energy can be used to protect you from the more common elements instead.
Sonic resistance is incredibly rare. No outsider type that I am aware of has any sonic resistance or immunity. There are multiple outsider types that have complete immunity to one or more of the other energy types. Many of them also have resistance vs other types of energy. It is not uncommon for an outsider type to have a single energy type that they have no protection vs, but all of them take full damage vs sonic. Silence is one of the few ways to counter sonic energy.