War for the Crown AP, Feb 2018

[WormysQueue]

Storyteller Shadow wrote:

Harder to find D&D Pathfinder PCs that would tolerate that style for that long without trying to kill something.

Depends on how you run it. In my home games, combat normally isn't as pronounced as in standard Pathfinder. On the other hand, combats are deadly enough that the players think twice about letting their PCs go murderhobo on their environment.

And if you're saying posts, I assume PBP. Which makes it even easier to have campaigns light on combat because normally the focus is much more on the actual characters and the story.

[zimmerwald1915]

WormysQueue wrote:

And if you're saying posts, I assume PBP. Which makes it even easier to have campaigns light on combat because normally the focus is much more on the actual characters and the story.

Not to mention that nothing kills a PbP faster than a drawn-out combat.

[jedi8187]

The Mad Comrade wrote:

Social identities are various lesser noble scions. In their vigilante identities they work together 'by accident in the field' or somesuch, which should make for interesting role-playing early on. Alternatively, they're all in the same family or Princess Demandypants' extended family that already know each others' alter-egos.

I'm actually thinking, based off the set up we were given in that one post, that when they decide to act they agree to do so in disguise to avoid detection an incriminating each other. This is all a big if though, since there is no guarantee that my group will go with it.

[Jacob W. Michaels]

Aromaz Esoj wrote:

I can not wait run this with Heroes of the Streets and Heroes of the High Court supplements.

Awesome. Heroes of the High Court was the first Paizo project I worked on ... and totally inspired me to do my own version of this exact AP. I think it has some great options for PCs that will fit well into this campaign.

[Storyteller Shadow]

WormysQueue wrote:

Storyteller Shadow wrote:

Harder to find D&D Pathfinder PCs that would tolerate that style for that long without trying to kill something.

Depends on how you run it. In my home games, combat normally isn't as pronounced as in standard Pathfinder. On the other hand, combats are deadly enough that the players think twice about letting their PCs go murderhobo on their environment.

And if you're saying posts, I assume PBP. Which makes it even easier to have campaigns light on combat because normally the focus is much more on the actual characters and the story.

Oh I've had table top sessions where we've had no combat for several sessions in a row. In general I think is fairly rare in D&D groups so my comment is more if a generalization than an explanation of what takes place at my table.

Yes PbP and I agree, in some ways especially from an RP perspective, PbP lends itself much better to a game where players do not utilize the hack and slash style of gameplay, for a variety of reasons :-)

[Storyteller Shadow]

Jacob W. Michaels wrote:

Aromaz Esoj wrote:

I can not wait run this with Heroes of the Streets and Heroes of the High Court supplements.

Awesome. Heroes of the High Court was the first Paizo project I worked on ... and totally inspired me to do my own version of this exact AP. I think it has some great options for PCs that will fit well into this campaign.

I'll have to check those supplements out!

[W E Ray]

The second book is titled "The Sovereign Scion" -- for those of you who were interested when the other five titles & authors were listed.

All I can add (that hasn't been already mentioned) from the notes that I took during the Adventure Path Q&A seminar (and a barroom conversation with 'Yoda 8 My Head' a day earlier) is that,

One: There is more than one rival heir beside Pyrathius (Stavian's lost son), including the general of Stavian's army at Zimar.

Two: It won't be sandbox-like in that the other possible heirs besides Eutropia are pretty obviously bad guys and enemies of the PCs. So it's really a 'support Eutropia's claim' campaign.

Three: The 'flavor' of a foppish, two-dimensional, cartoon-chivalry Taldor is going to be fixed to something more mature, artistic and deep-in-intrigue.

Four: Someone really wanted it to be "War of the Crown" so that the initials for the AP would be 'WotC' but Jacobs and Mona crushed the proposal, despite vehement pleas from the other developers.

Finally: I didn't hear anything that would move the timeline forward so dramatically. I don't see the end-game of this AP radically altering Taldor unless the PCs and the individual groups really want it to in their own game. If at the end Eutropia does take the throne, Taldor could still be as decadent, deteriorating and corrupt.

Oh yeah, and the developers have excruciatingly fought against putting anything in the AP that may sound even a little bit like a real-life political platform of a 'Make Taldor Great Again' campaign. And that was not easy!

[GeraintElberion]

W E Ray wrote:

Three: The 'flavor' of a foppish, two-dimensional, cartoon-chivalry Taldor is going to be fixed to something more mature, artistic and deep-in-intrigue.

Christmas comes early at Paizocon!

[W E Ray]

I could be misreading my notes -- is Pyrathius the general in Zimar? ....If so then Stavian's lost son is obviously not the general. But both are at some point rivals for the throne. And as mentioned earlier, the PCs have to go to Axis and get the authority to put Eutropia on the throne from the soul of Taldor's first emperor.

[Paladinosaur]

W E Ray wrote:

I could be misreading my notes -- is Pyrathius the general in Zimar? ....If so then Stavian's lost son is obviously not the general. But both are at some point rivals for the throne. And as mentioned earlier, the PCs have to go to Axis and get the authority to put Eutropia on the throne from the soul of Taldor's first emperor.

And what are the plot twists motteditor didnt't want to spoil?

[zimmerwald1915]

W E Ray wrote:

And as mentioned earlier, the PCs have to go to Axis and get the authority to put Eutropia on the throne from the soul of Taldor's first emperor.

Someone at Paizo must be fond of this trope. It shows up in the form of Neolandus in Curse of the Crimson Throne, in the form of the Mother of Flies in Council of Thieves, in Jade Regent in the form of the First Emperor, and in Hell's Rebels in the form of Odexidie. So probably James Jacobs then. I wonder if he even realizes how bone-deep reactionary it is?

[motteditor]

Spoilers:

Pyrathius is the general in Zimar. We don't know the lost son's name.

Stavian's lost son was one of the big twists I didn't want to spoil.

[Rogar Valertis]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

W E Ray wrote:

And as mentioned earlier, the PCs have to go to Axis and get the authority to put Eutropia on the throne from the soul of Taldor's first emperor.

Someone at Paizo must be fond of this trope. It shows up in the form of Neolandus in Curse of the Crimson Throne, in the form of the Mother of Flies in Council of Thieves, in Jade Regent in the form of the First Emperor, and in Hell's Rebels in the form of Odexidie. So probably James Jacobs then. I wonder if he even realizes how bone-deep reactionary it is?

I know nothing about the new AP but I think it's important to note how the seeds of the plot for Eutropia as a claimant of her father's throne have been out there since the very beginning. We already know she wants to be empress but she can't because Taldan law forbids a female to become Grand Princess. For that reason she searches for precedents proving she can actually suceed her father. Also in Tomb of the Iron Medusa there's quite a disturbing discovery about the current line of Taldan emperors.

So in this case gaining endorsement from an ancient Taldan Emperor is something that might very well be the only way to get Eutropia on Taldor's throne and probably something thought in advance, I would not go as far as to call it reactionary but simply necessary given her circumstances.

[magnuskn]

Would you mind spoiling the disturbing thing from that module, Rogar? Just put it behind spoiler tags for the non-spoiler minded. :)

[zimmerwald1915]

Rogar Valertis wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

W E Ray wrote:

And as mentioned earlier, the PCs have to go to Axis and get the authority to put Eutropia on the throne from the soul of Taldor's first emperor.

Someone at Paizo must be fond of this trope. It shows up in the form of Neolandus in Curse of the Crimson Throne, in the form of the Mother of Flies in Council of Thieves, in Jade Regent in the form of the First Emperor, and in Hell's Rebels in the form of Odexidie. So probably James Jacobs then. I wonder if he even realizes how bone-deep reactionary it is?

I know nothing about the new AP but I think it's important to note how the seeds of the plot for Eutropia as a claimant of her father's throne have been out there since the very beginning. We already know she wants to be empress but she can't because Taldan law forbids a female to become Grand Princess. For that reason she searches for precedents proving she can actually suceed her father. Also in Tomb of the Iron Medusa there's quite a disturbing discovery about the current line of Taldan emperors.

So in this case gaining endorsement from an ancient Taldan Emperor is something that might very well be the only way to get Eutropia on Taldor's throne and probably something thought in advance, I would not go as far as to call it reactionary but simply necessary given her circumstances.

That explanation doesn't actually absolve the staff of their politics, it just locates them further back in time and makes the hole they've dug for themselves all the deeper.

As I mentioned, too, this isn't a circumstance unique to Taldor. It keeps popping up.

[Rogar Valertis]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Rogar Valertis wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

W E Ray wrote:

And as mentioned earlier, the PCs have to go to Axis and get the authority to put Eutropia on the throne from the soul of Taldor's first emperor.

Someone at Paizo must be fond of this trope. It shows up in the form of Neolandus in Curse of the Crimson Throne, in the form of the Mother of Flies in Council of Thieves, in Jade Regent in the form of the First Emperor, and in Hell's Rebels in the form of Odexidie. So probably James Jacobs then. I wonder if he even realizes how bone-deep reactionary it is?

I know nothing about the new AP but I think it's important to note how the seeds of the plot for Eutropia as a claimant of her father's throne have been out there since the very beginning. We already know she wants to be empress but she can't because Taldan law forbids a female to become Grand Princess. For that reason she searches for precedents proving she can actually suceed her father. Also in Tomb of the Iron Medusa there's quite a disturbing discovery about the current line of Taldan emperors.

So in this case gaining endorsement from an ancient Taldan Emperor is something that might very well be the only way to get Eutropia on Taldor's throne and probably something thought in advance, I would not go as far as to call it reactionary but simply necessary given her circumstances.

That explanation doesn't actually absolve the staff of their politics, it just locates them further back in time and makes the hole they've dug for themselves all the deeper.

As I mentioned, too, this isn't a circumstance unique to Taldor. It keeps popping up.

Personally I don't see this as a big deal at all. I would have preferred one of the books of the AP to be about the PCs travelling back in time and withness some of the great episodes in Taldan history, recovering secrets and artifacts able to help Eutropia substantiate her claim, but a visit to Axis works almost as well for me.

[zimmerwald1915]

Rogar Valertis wrote:

Personally I don't see this as a big deal at all.

Yes, but you're not a communist ;P

[Kalindlara]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

W E Ray wrote:

And as mentioned earlier, the PCs have to go to Axis and get the authority to put Eutropia on the throne from the soul of Taldor's first emperor.

Someone at Paizo must be fond of this trope. It shows up in the form of Neolandus in Curse of the Crimson Throne, in the form of the Mother of Flies in Council of Thieves, in Jade Regent in the form of the First Emperor, and in Hell's Rebels in the form of Odexidie. So probably James Jacobs then. I wonder if he even realizes how bone-deep reactionary it is?

Before we start throwing around that sort of language, let's look at the facts. Only one of those is anywhere close to qualifying as such.

Curse of the Crimson Throne:

The PCs end up looking for Neolandus, but not for his "authority" - that's why the Arkonas have him, but the PCs are simply looking for Vencarlo. They don't even discover he's still alive until they earn Salvator Scream's trust. And his "authority" ends up meaning nothing. The only way Ileosa can be dethroned, in the end, is by the sword.

Council of Thieves:

The Mother's "authority" is nonexistent. She simply has information the PCs can use - in this case, a guide to where the infernal contract is stored. Even the contract ends up having little "authority"; its main use is in turning Chammady against her brother.

Jade Regent:

I couldn't find a "First Emperor" in The Empty Throne, but this is the closest one to being accurate - seeking the blessing of the last heir is certainly a plot point, related to the magic of the Jade Throne and the deities/spirits/etc. of Minkai. I don't really see the problem with the plot, myself. Is being encouraged to take the throne by force - right of rule by brute strength - somehow morally superior?

Hell's Rebels:

Again, "authority" isn't what you're seeking from the contract devil. The loophole in the pact means that Cheliax stands to lose more than it gains by attacking Kintargo - that's on them for making the pact in the first place. I'm sure that if the PCs can take on the entire military and infernal might of Imperial Cheliax, they'll do that instead. But tying House Thrune up in their own rules seems less "reactionary" and more "ironic". You're not acceding to Hell's authority by exploiting the contract - you're giving those who have acceded a choice between Hell's support or open war (which they may find more challenging to win without Hell's favor, especially with the Glorious Reclamation wreaking havoc).

War for the Crown is closest to Jade Regent in this regard; they both share a certain level of "consent of the ruled"/"working within the system". Personally, I'm looking forward to an AP where the political solution isn't assassination or all-out war. I have Kingmaker for that.

[Rogar Valertis]

magnuskn wrote:

Would you mind spoiling the disturbing thing from that module, Rogar? Just put it behind spoiler tags for the non-spoiler minded. :)

Tomb of the Iron Medusa:

Sativan the first was in fact a bastard and not the son of the emperor's wife at all. His true mother was a noblewoman from a disgraced House with ties to Asmodeus himself

[zimmerwald1915]

Kalindlara wrote:

Before we start throwing around that sort of language, let's look at the facts. Only one of those is anywhere close to qualifying as such.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

I'm away from my books at the moment, so please forgive any detail-muddling in the following responses.

Curse of the Crimson Throne:

The PCs in this AP are set up from the very start as defenders of the status quo, and demonstrate this time after time over the course of the AP. Significant portions of the first and third books are spent beating the heads of "rioters" and the sole grasp at popular sovereignty in Old Korvosa is presented as illegitimate and also the product of manipulation by powerful figures (Swastel and the Arkonas) rather than . . . a grasping at popular sovereignty. Neolandus's role is a part of this larger picture, and he fits seamlessly in.

As for what that role is, while the PCs may be put on his trail by Orisini's disappearance, it is quickly made apparent that any putsch against Ileosa without him is disfavored by the plot as illegitimate. The second half of the third book revolves around his safety, and it's only his return in book six that convinces Kroft to move against Ileosa.

Council of Thieves:

You're correct that unlike in the other examples, the Mother of Flies's role isn't to confer legitimacy on the PCs, but rather information. I was hesitant about including it for this reason. I maintain that this is because the PCs in this AP are set up as celebrities rather than rulers or even politicians, and Westcrown isn't intended to gain much autonomy at all (Hell's Vengeance backs this up), but oh well. Every set of examples must have a weakest one.

Jade Regent:

There's a whole section of book five (or possibly four, but I think it's five) that consists of winning the loyalty of a town's people at large and of its powerful factions, and then mobilizing that coalition against the forces of the regime in Kasai. The significance of this is completely undermined by the fact that "real" legitimacy is conferred by a literal dead hand. Why even bother? For the sake of it? The same problem bedevils Hell's Rebels to an even greater degree, because in that AP the revolution was intentionally built up as significant before being undermined.

Hell's Rebels:

Hell's Rebels has you engaging in literal reaction, by recreating a long-dead aristocratic institution. This institution, not the acclaim of the people or even recognition by foreign powers, is the only one that can grant legitimacy to the new government. This is so because of a decades-old agreement that must stay in place. It must stay in place because the revolution shaking the country is predestined to fail.

Book five is the Thermidor of Hell's Rebels, where the genie is forced back into the bottle. And not even by malevolent forces (though Mephisotpheles implies that everything that happened was according to his design, and I'm inclined to believe him, because the lack of agency in books 5 and 6 is so apparent), but by the narrative of the AP.

[Shivok]

I've always been a huge Taldor fan, and before this announcement I had thrown a couple of ideas HERE, some similar to other folks.

A few months ago before the Taldan sourcebook or the War of the Crown AP were announced I put THIS shell of a Taldan AP with dozens of pages of notes.

I have a whole folder on my computer worth of research on the Taldan Empire, and the route I was taking with my homebrew AP. I ordered a history book on Byzantium to get a feel and knowledge of the titles that had been used in previous books referencing Taldor.

I am still going to work on this project just to see how these turn out in comparison to the official AP.

With that said I still look forward to the War of the Crown AP, even If I don't like some of the direction that the initial premise is going with. I can still say I'm hyped about it. Some of my favorite authors are writing the books. To the doomsayers I say, chill take a seat and lets enjoy the show.

[Ring_of_Gyges]

Re: reactionary politics in APs...

The interaction between feudalism, objective (magically detectable) morality, and modern political values is potentially interesting.

If some trouble makers from Galt show up and say "Hey, why should we back any of these aristocrats? So long as we're having a civil war, Taldor should be a democracy!" what can Eutropia say and preserve both a) a good alignment and b) her quest to be an absolute monarch?

"Knights in shining armor" are romantic and all, but the distinction between a king and a military dictator is awfully subtle. Can I support feudalism / military dictatorship and be objectively cosmically good? Whether or not people have the right to vote isn't just a political question in Golarion, it's a empirical one with a magically detectable answer.

It may be that the tensions are not resolvable, you might want to play in a game with objective morality, angels, devils, gods, all that, and play in a game where Paladins with knighthoods uphold the rule of the righteous king, and those may simply be in unavoidable contradiction with your conviction that "king" and "knight" are fundamentally immoral social roles.

[Uqbarian]

Ring_of_Gyges wrote:

Re: reactionary politics in APs...

The interaction between feudalism, objective (magically detectable) morality, and modern political values is potentially interesting.

Definitely interesting, and maybe worth its own thread(s) rather than this one?

[W E Ray]

I'm going under the assumption that EVERYone in this thread is okay for WftC spoilers -- I mean, otherwise, what are you doing here!? Seriously. (Meanwhile info from other adventures should be under Spoilers.)

Regarding time travel, in another seminar Jacobs said they don't ever want to go there because it opens up a potential um, 'temporal prime directive' can o' worms (my phrasing). It's logical to assume that's why we're going to Axis to ask permission from the soul of the first emperor instead of going back in time and getting it (and giving him a view of his future empire).

I think, Ring-of-Gyges, that individual groups will have to handle those alignment dynamics. I can't see them making this any deeper than Eutropia is a good guy and the PCs support her. Extra development will have to come from different groups' home game precedents, style and moral views in gaming -- things they can't put in design (beyond a sidebar with advice).

[UnArcaneElection]

You may not get a choice of supporting absolute good. As all too often happens, especially in societies already in a state of decadence and dictatorship, the best you can do is to choose the least evil option.

[magnuskn]

Rogar Valertis wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

Would you mind spoiling the disturbing thing from that module, Rogar? Just put it behind spoiler tags for the non-spoiler minded. :)

** spoiler omitted **

Well, that was much less disturbing than I thought. I was expecting something along the line of "the royal bloodline has aberration blood in it" or somesuch. ^^

Thanks, nonetheless. :)

[magnuskn]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

Before we start throwing around that sort of language, let's look at the facts. Only one of those is anywhere close to qualifying as such.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

I'm away from my books at the moment, so please forgive any detail-muddling in the following responses.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

Can't talk about Council of Thieves, but for the others, you got your facts wrong on every single one of them. Highly amusing.

[W E Ray]

I think it depends on how each individual group plays the AP. DMs read things differently and put their own tone and style in the beginning, and once the players start getting their grubby paws on plot and NPC, things can quickly evolve into a different 'whisper-down-the-lane' version of the campaign for each group that plays it.

Zimmerwald could absolutely have played the APs that way; I see a pretty easy way to get there for a group (and especially the same group seeing a similar trope).

For us in CotCT:

The PCs were as interested in supporting Ileosa as good alignments. The DM missed relating one line of text illustrating the horrors she was involved in so it just looked like, okay, one monarch usurped another -- but is trying to bring peace, order and financial stability to the city! So what if she 'may' have killed the decadent king who bled the city dry of money. She is the Queen.

For us it wasn't until after returning from Scarwall in book 6 that we started learning what had really been going on. ....And then 'bye bye Ileosa'!

That's why I don't see too much earthmoving for the setting unless a group wants to go there. I don't see my group making Taldor great again whether or not Eutropia takes the throne.

For mine and me, we really wanted Sarenrae to be legal -- and even the top religion -- of Taldor. And we made it happen in a long campaign. But we also love the decaying, decadent, corrupt and lethargic-in-beurocracy Taldor. So I don't believe that will ever change.

[Yossarin]

Very much looking forward to the release of this AP, as intrigue based games with a lot of social interaction and politicking and espionage is fun for me. A great group of writers working on the books, too.

[The Thing From Another World]

Any chance of seeing any NPC writeup from the Dagger of Trust novel? I just finished today and would like to see some of the characters show up in the AP.

[W E Ray]

Try to get either Mark Moreland or Amber Scott -- they'd be the two most likely to know, I think.

In general though, stuff from the novels doesn't end up as easter eggs in the APs.

[magnuskn]

W E, you said there was an overview who the writers for each module are. Could you list them, if you still remember from the panel?

[Ckorik]

motteditor wrote:

So, I went to the Adventure Path Q&A at PaizoCon, and much of it was about War for the Crown. I *think* I'm OK posting these spoilers, but I apologize if not.

For what it's worth, I think it's going to be awesome. Anyway, spoilers for what Paizo's planning; some of these notes may be a little scattered as there was a lot to keep track of.

So, I went to the Adventure Path Q&A at PaizoCon, and much of it was about War for the Crown. I *think* I'm OK posting these spoilers, but I apologize if not.

For what it's worth, I think it's going to be awesome. Anyway, spoilers for what Paizo's planning; some of these notes may be a little scattered as there was a lot to keep track of.

War for the Crown:

They debated calling it War of the Crown, which would have had a familiar acronym. :)

The campaign will be "James Bond meets Game of Thrones" with stabbings, chases, Disguise...

"Shadowy cabal that makes things happen." I don't remember what that refers to, but it's in my notes. :) Might have been that that's sort of the players' role, as opposed to leading the actual armies and whatnot...

Spoiler:

Book 1: Crownfall, by Thurston Hillman. You begin as minor aides at a senatorial dinner, where nothing of interest happens. Until assassins. Then you're in a "death Senate."
Book 2: I missed the name of Book 2, by Richard Pett. You're recruited by Eutropia (after coming to her notice in Book 1) to get squatters off her land. This will involve intrigue, as opposed to simply using brute force (which is probably true of most of the AP, though there'll be plenty of the latter too).
Book 3: Twilight Child, by Ron Lundeen. You help Eutropia recruit neighboring provinces, arriving in Yanmass to ask for help, where you find your rivals doing the same thing. "Stab divs, fight a drake." Big twist here -- calling upon more published works by Paizo -- that I don't want to reveal because I feel like it should be a surprise (though I'd guess it'll be spoiled at some point).
Book 4: City in the Lion's Eye, by Mikko Kallio. Go to Zimar, the power base of Eutriopia's main rival for the throne. You take out his spymaster -- who you can then impersonate to coopt his network, or just take out his spy network.
Book 5: The Reaper's Right Hand, by John Compton. Go to Axis to fight Taldor's first emperor and get his blessing for Eutropia's claim. But he's missing.
Book 6: The Six-Legend Soul, by Amber Scott. Another big twist that I certainly wasn't expecting and again don't want to spoil. Let's just say things go to poop and it sounds like it's going to be a lot of work to fix.

Some other notes from the Q&A:
* Qadira is "a fairly big side player in the middle of the adventure" (Zimar is right on the border, after all), but you don't go there. They were concerned it would be "too much of a distraction."

* Pyratheus (sp?) is the name of Eutropia's main rival for the throne.

* You'll have influence over armies but won't always be commanding them.

* There'll be options for an LG solution for all challenges (said after a comment about how you could potentially poison an army's water supply).

* May want to play Tomb of the Iron Medusa beforehand.

* Taldor was compared to the Sun King era of France.

* Norgorber features in Book 5.

* Other factions vying for the throne are "kind of detestable." I think this was following a question about could players choose/back patrons other than Eutropia. It was considered but there's only so much space in APs and you can't really do three different adventures in all of them.

* I asked about links to the Armies of Exploration, and they discussed working in relics, which are magic items imbued with extra magic, especially when dealing with aspects of their history.

Also, though not related to the AP specifically, Crystal Frasier debuted her amazing fritter dance. It was a highlight of the panel. :)

re-posting for magnuskn

[magnuskn]

Thanks, Ckorik. Much appreciated. :)

[W E Ray]

Thanks, Ckoric -- you saved me from having to find my notes again.

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One more time, I just can't wait for this AP!

Mostly because it was just a question on how the new AP could (or could not) mesh well with what's gone on in my homegame the last several years.

You're always concerned that when Paizo does finally publish significant material for an area you've been gaming in that it will be too different from your own game's development to be useful.
See Shivok's 'Interregnum' AP outline linked earlier.

But boy did my group get lucky!

We did a long campaign (Levels 1-14, MR 3) in Taldor that put ToEE in the World's Edge Mountains, switching the Elemental Princes with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse -- Norgorber replaced Zuggtmoy -- and the PCs had to stop the Daemon cultists from resurrecting the Oinodaemon, Anthraxus.

The PCs also made Sarenrae legal in Taldor, negotiated a political proposal from Stavian to marry Eutropia & Qadira's Satrap, witnessed a brief war between Qadira & Taldor, rescued Eutropia from the Temple of 'Apocalyptic' Evil, eliminated the cult of Norgorber, and sent spies and infiltrators from Cheliax back to their devil-worshiping empire.

The PCs supported Eutropia from session one.

....In another Taldor campaign I made it clear that it was flavored medieval France, circa Louis XIV, especially as Shakespeare saw it, and gave the NPC commoners French names and made them all vintners and pastry artists and cheese makers and such. Real cliche, stereotype stuff to make it abundantly clear what my vision of Taldor is.

I went to the seminar at PaizoCon quite nervous about how 'our' Taldor would work with the new AP and found that it was A) Going to be presented as much more France-during-Louis XIV than Byzantine, B) The PCs are going to support Eutropia, and C) Norgorber plays a big role -- Oh yeah, and the conflict between Qadira will be constantly on the periphery.

It was about as perfect a meld as one could ever hope to have.

One more time, I just can't wait for this AP!

[mark kay]

Quote:

A) Going to be presented as much more France-during-Louis XIV than Byzantine,

That's.. honestly severely disappointing to hear, Taldor's byzantine flavour was one of the things that interested me about the nation/this AP. It's somewhat rare in fantasy to get riffs off the Byzantine Empire, it helped make it feel distinct.

It's kind of enough to put me off the AP really, and the upcoming Taldor setting book, if that's the case.

[Rogar Valertis]

mark kay wrote:

Quote:

A) Going to be presented as much more France-during-Louis XIV than Byzantine,

That's.. honestly severely disappointing to hear, Taldor's byzantine flavour was one of the things that interested me about the nation/this AP. It's somewhat rare in fantasy to get riffs off the Byzantine Empire, it helped make it feel distinct.

It's kind of enough to put me off the AP really, and the upcoming Taldor setting book, if that's the case.

To each is own I guess but I'm pretty tired of hearing this, especially considering how Gondor from the Lord of the Rings was explicitly stated by Tolkien himself to be an analogue for Byzantium (Arnor was supposed to be the stand in for the Western Roman Empire btw).

That said personally I support this choice wholeheartedly

[Cole Deschain]

mark kay wrote:

Taldor's byzantine flavour was one of the things that interested me about the nation/this AP.

Yep.

[mark kay]

Quote:

To each is own I guess but I'm pretty tired of hearing this, especially considering how Gondor from the Lord of the Rings was explicitly stated by Tolkien himself to be an analogue for Byzantium (Arnor was supposed to be the stand in for the Western Roman Empire btw).

Yeah, I've read that too, but in execution Gondor didn't much resemble it at all, so it's an odd thing to sweepingly dismiss out of hand anyone who expresses that opinion about the genre over.

[Steve Geddes]

I think it'll be worth a look even if you're disappointed in which real world country acts as the primary inspiration. Early on, some of paizo's nations were a little too close to being almost caricatures of real world countries, imo. It seems to me they've made a concerted effort recently to move back from that approach somewhat.

For me at least, there's less of a disconnect between my preconceptions and paizo's execution of something I've been looking forward to when their creation is inspired by a real world place or culture, rather than a direct analogue.

[Rogar Valertis]

mark kay wrote:

Quote:

To each is own I guess but I'm pretty tired of hearing this, especially considering how Gondor from the Lord of the Rings was explicitly stated by Tolkien himself to be an analogue for Byzantium (Arnor was supposed to be the stand in for the Western Roman Empire btw).

Yeah, I've read that too, but in execution Gondor didn't much resemble it at all, so it's an odd thing to sweepingly dismiss out of hand anyone who expresses that opinion about the genre over.

And from the very beginning Taldor's imagery was never "byzantine". Yes they have their cold war with Qadira but their imagery always was much more european than bizantine (and a strange mix of different historical periods too, from medieval knights complete with lance and heraldry to 19th century fops, passing through to french musketeers).

[W E Ray]

Yoda 8 My Head is the one writing the upcoming setting book and he's the one pushing for the more French flavor. It's important to note he's not writing any of the AP adventures.

I think you may just take a concerned gander at the setting book at your LGS to see if it's, um, too obviously 'French-Fluff' before you buy -- but get the AP anyway.

I doubt the AP will blatantly lean one way or the other, though you never know.

....For me, I've always been concerned because I'm in the minority that has always seen Taldor more medieval-French, especially during a Louis XIV timeline, albeit fantasy -- rather than the much more widespread view of Taldor as being Byzantine. Something that never tickled my fancy or even had in the back of my mind as a possible interpretation until (how many years ago?) some folks on the Boards mentioned that's how they interpreted it. ....So for me I'm relieved that the guy writing the setting book has had the same view as I -- and even though he's not the lead designer for the AP, or even writing a volume of the AP, he was heavily involved in design and, during the panel Q&A, seemed to be the one who could answer the most questions and had a better grasp on what the AP would contain. (And is tho one who demanded it go from the lame, two-dimensional, flaky Taldor to the more serious, heavy-intrigue Taldor.)

But for the majority of you out there who see Byzantine-era fantasy, I don't think the AP will really hurt your view. (The setting book on the other hand....)

[Rysky]

Uh, W E Ray, you might want to go see Mark Moreland's (Yoda 8 My Head) latest post in the Taldor, the First Empire thread. Taldor remains a mix of Byzantine and French.

[Mark Moreland]

mark kay wrote:

Quote:

A) Going to be presented as much more France-during-Louis XIV than Byzantine,

That's.. honestly severely disappointing to hear, Taldor's byzantine flavour was one of the things that interested me about the nation/this AP. It's somewhat rare in fantasy to get riffs off the Byzantine Empire, it helped make it feel distinct.

It's kind of enough to put me off the AP really, and the upcoming Taldor setting book, if that's the case.

That is not the case. There will certainly be elements of the Sun King's reign, especially in the opulence and style of the ultra upper class. In many other ways, Taldor will remain heavily influenced by Byzantium, and in some areas will become even more clearly inspired by this rich source of material from real-world history.

If I can take the liberty to read into W.E. Ray's comment, it seems he might have been latching onto our mention of Louis XIV because it fit so well with his version of Taldor. And while elements of the campaign and CS book will gel very well with a focus on this type of setting, it isn't going to be at the exclusion of other inspirations.

[Rysky]

Or I could just quote it a suppose :3

Mark Moreland wrote:

mark kay wrote:

So, it was just mentioned in the Taldor AP thread that the notion is to slide away from any particularly Byzantine empire themed elements to Taldor over portraying it as akin to France under the Sun King. Wondering now if that's going to be the case for the campaign setting book as well. That's kind of a bummer for my part if so. I really liked all the resonance with the later era of the Eastern Roman Empire.

The three primary influences for Taldor are the Byzantine Empire, the British Empire, and 18th century France. Both the AP and the campaign setting book will emphasize all three of these. I'm not really sure where the idea that we'd be excising the Byzantine elements from originated, but it was likely a misinterpretation of something we said; it certainly didn't come straight from any of us working on the AP or CS project.

Edit: ninjaed by Mark himself XD

[mark kay]

Mark Moreland wrote:

mark kay wrote:

Quote:

A) Going to be presented as much more France-during-Louis XIV than Byzantine,

That's.. honestly severely disappointing to hear, Taldor's byzantine flavour was one of the things that interested me about the nation/this AP. It's somewhat rare in fantasy to get riffs off the Byzantine Empire, it helped make it feel distinct.

It's kind of enough to put me off the AP really, and the upcoming Taldor setting book, if that's the case.

That is not the case. There will certainly be elements of the Sun King's reign, especially in the opulence and style of the ultra upper class. In many other ways, Taldor will remain heavily influenced by Byzantium, and in some areas will become even more clearly inspired by this rich source of material from real-world history.

If I can take the liberty to read into W.E. Ray's comment, it seems he might have been latching onto our mention of Louis XIV because it fit so well with his version of Taldor. And while elements of the campaign and CS book will gel very well with a focus on this type of setting, it isn't going to be at the exclusion of other inspirations.

Awesome. And back onto my to buy list it all goes.

Also, thanks for the timely reply on this, that itself is pretty neat.

[Cole Deschain]

Paizo kinda rocks that way...

[W E Ray]

So in the end we're ALL happy!

[UnArcaneElection]

Come to think of it, Taldor having pre-Revolution French elements in it makes sense -- remember that Galt used to be part of it, and is right next door, and DID undergo a French Revolution, except that the Red Revolution never really ended -- they have a common origin. Taldor got spared the Red Revolution by being disconnected from Galt by breakaway Cheliax having taken it over. Think of what might have happened in France if the royalty had been smarter and managed to hole up in part of France where the Revolution couldn't dislodge them (or, if not being smarter, had already been forced part way into doing so by an attack from an outside power) . . . .

[Rogar Valertis]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Come to think of it, Taldor having pre-Revolution French elements in it makes sense -- remember that Galt used to be part of it, and is right next door, and DID undergo a French Revolution, except that the Red Revolution never really ended -- they have a common origin. Taldor got spared the Red Revolution by being disconnected from Galt by breakaway Cheliax having taken it over. Think of what might have happened in France if the royalty had been smarter and managed to hole up in part of France where the Revolution couldn't dislodge them (or, if not being smarter, had already been forced part way into doing so by an attack from an outside power) . . . .

Well, apparently Sativan created something like the Versailles palace in order to keep an eye on his nobles much like Louis XIV did. That's one of the main reasons why the noble class in France was hit so hard by the revolution: a lot of them could be easily captured because they were in Versailles or Paris. Even so there were places in France where the people rebelled against the revolution in order to save the "ancien régime", the best known of them Vandèe.