Creative Director
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Hell, no. Please, anything but the terrible, broken mythic rules.Don't worry. You've won that fight.Do you think there's any possibility of a mythic module one day, James? Or has the staff lost the appetite for mythic adventures altogether?
I know a lot of the feedback for WotR was pretty poor, but it remains one of my favorite APs and it would be good to see some similarly high-powered storylines from time to time.
Anything is possible I guess but I'm not really interested in using mythic for anything other than monsters and periodic NPC bad guys in adventures from this point out. Speaking ONLY for myself.
We publish modules SO infrequently these days that I'm even less likely to be into using Mythic on them than on an Adventure Path, honestly, so the more I think of it, the less likely it gets.
Ah well. Makes sense, really.
Cheers, James.
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Sadly, it seems the constant and unrelenting negativity that hounds every mention of Mythic, makes another unlikely.
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I don't really have any problem with mythic rules(except mythic spells) it's the flavor/subject matter that really effects my interest. When I think of mythic, I think of classic Greek myth with heroes, demi-gods, titans, legendary monsters, nearly impossible tasks, etc. not what we got for it's only AP that players got to have fun with it. I would love an expansion of the options/rules, especially since we have a lot of new classes since then.
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...and that's where 3PP come in.
I'm working on one.
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Hell, no. Please, anything but the terrible, broken mythic rules.Don't worry. You've won that fight.Do you think there's any possibility of a mythic module one day, James? Or has the staff lost the appetite for mythic adventures altogether?
I know a lot of the feedback for WotR was pretty poor, but it remains one of my favorite APs and it would be good to see some similarly high-powered storylines from time to time.
I liked the idea of mythic, but in the end it turned rocket tag into atomic rocket tag.
I think taking a mulligan on mythic rules and saying "Hey, we realized this didn't end up the way we wanted or expected, and we want to do it over" would be the only way to get good support for it.
Because while I like the concept of mythic, the execution didn't match my expectations and I wouldn't support any more products that were using the current mythic rules.
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Mythic is perfectly fine when using Legendary Games' supplements and discarding the notion that the CR system is able to handle mythic characters.
WotR is perfectly fine when played using non-mythic or max 3rd tier PCs.
But if Paizo does anything, we'll have to endure The Second Magnuskn Crusade anyway, so I can see why they are reluctant.
Hell, no. Please, anything but the terrible, broken mythic rules.Don't worry. You've won that fight.Do you think there's any possibility of a mythic module one day, James? Or has the staff lost the appetite for mythic adventures altogether?
I know a lot of the feedback for WotR was pretty poor, but it remains one of my favorite APs and it would be good to see some similarly high-powered storylines from time to time.
I liked the idea of mythic, but in the end it turned rocket tag into atomic rocket tag.
I think taking a mulligan on mythic rules and saying "Hey, we realized this didn't end up the way we wanted or expected, and we want to do it over" would be the only way to get good support for it.
Because while I like the concept of mythic, the execution didn't match my expectations and I wouldn't support any more products that were using the current mythic rules.
To be frank, it sounds like it's a moot point anyhow.
It's disappointing, but understandable.
The lack of errata for Mythic Adventures indicates the original printing never sold out. That in of itself pretty much means any further support from Paizo isn't happening - Paizo isn't going to sink more resources into something that flopped.
So yeah, mythic is a niche market even within the nice market of table top RPGs.
Legendary Games (run by Jason Nelson, one of the authors of Mythic Adventures) is pretty much where you need to go for mythic support at this point.
They're doing good work, too.
(I'd love to see official mythic rules support for the newer classes, but it ain't happening.)
Edit: One of my gaming groups just finished a three-year homebrew mythic campaign, that ended with the party at tier 10 and killing a god. It was a hell of a trip.
The lack of errata for Mythic Adventures indicates the original printing never sold out.
I used to think that they did an "errata run" every time they reprinted a book, however I recently became aware that this isn't the case.
The CRB (for example) has been reprinted many more than six times*. They only update the "xth printing" label after an update.
I suspect you're right that it didn't sell well, but we can't conclude that from the fact that there's no errata document - they could have ordered several more print runs and just decided that errata weren't worth the effort given the scope required and the fact they're not going to do another mythic AP. Each additional printing would then still be labelled "First Printing" and there'd be no errata document.
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For me, third party offerings are unlikely to meet my needs. I have no problem with the mechanics as written in mythic adventures. I want a mythic AP because we can explore some of the truly significant places/creatures/mysteries of Golarion (like trying to close the worldwound). That's my big disappointment - a whole bunch of golarion storylines are closed for future exploration. I don't care that I won't get more (or errata'd) player options.
I wouldn't mind playing an AP were you max out your mythic tiers at the 2-5 range. You could save the 6-10 tiers for the post game stuff as an option.
Magnuskn Crusade?
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For me, third party offerings are unlikely to meet my needs. I have no problem with the mechanics as written in mythic adventures. I want a mythic AP because we can explore some of the truly significant places/creatures/mysteries of Golarion (like trying to close the worldwound). That's my big disappointment - a whole bunch of golarion storylines are closed for future exploration. I don't care that I won't get more (or errata'd) player options.
Yeah, it's hard to imagine how you'd do the Spire of Nex or the Test of the Starstone without mythic.
I can imagine a regular version of the Spire of Nex (you're not off the hook, Erik!!) but definitely not the Test of the Starstone.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Well short of Paizo doing an errata, Legendary Games has Mythic Solutions that really does a great job of fixing the most troubling aspects of the ruleset.
Having just finished WotR playing by the book I found challenging the PCs pat tier 6 to be very difficult with non-mythic encounters, and nigh impossible past tier 9. Only custom mythic bosses and sub bosses made any dent in my group. I will offer that my group did not fit the core assumption. They started with 7 PCs 20 point buy, but by the end were 4 PCs w/ NPC help (advanced Arushalae per cover). City of Locusts was a bit of a disappointment due to the bad encounter structure. I skipped most of them as I don't use XP so they were merely speed bumps that ate away at precious game time by forcing useless fights.
I for one would love seeing Mythic 3pp adventures.
--Vrock & Awe
Thanks for the shout-out for Mythic Solutions - it definitely does the job in presenting an array of solutions to the key rough spots in the mythic rules, including discussing why each is problematic and for some issues even offering several options for calibrating the rule system to your group's taste as far as power level.
Someone upthread mentioned our Legendary Planet AP, which is built using mythic rules but does have some built-in brakes on the acquisition of mythic power. We are about to release The Depths of Desperation by Steve Helt to backers (and next month to the general public), and it's for 14th to 17th level characters, starting with 3 tiers and gaining a 4th by the end of the adventure. PCs. Over the course 8 adventures (including the prequel), PCs should reach tier 6 close to the end of the AP (just two more adventures to go after Steve's).
We also published a standalone mythic adventure to accompany WotR, Road to War: The Equinox Crown by Jim Groves and Neil Spicer, and boy if you want more options for mythic heroes, villains, monsters, spells, magic items, class features, paths, path abilities, and a whole lot more, we are currently at 166 mythic products and counting.
The original Mythic Adventures book was a lot of fun, but it also left a lot of room for growth, and as people have said it probably needed some more fine-tuning. I'd say in the products that have come out since it's gotten that from us, and from others who have made or are making mythic stuff like Rogue Genius Games and Jon Brazer Enterprises.
The system has matured in the nearly 4 years since its release. There's a lot of fun toolbox value to be had with it, even for use in a standard campaign, to create enhanced monsters, magic, and more.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The lack of errata for Mythic Adventures indicates the original printing never sold out. That in of itself pretty much means any further support from Paizo isn't happening - Paizo isn't going to sink more resources into something that flopped.
So yeah, mythic is a niche market even within the nice market of table top RPGs.
Legendary Games (run by Jason Nelson, one of the authors of Mythic Adventures) is pretty much where you need to go for mythic support at this point.
They're doing good work, too.
(I'd love to see official mythic rules support for the newer classes, but it ain't happening.)
Edit: One of my gaming groups just finished a three-year homebrew mythic campaign, that ended with the party at tier 10 and killing a god. It was a hell of a trip.
Thanks for the kind words, Zhangar, and as for mythic rules support for the newer classes... that's coming this fall when we run our second mythic Kickstarter to cover all the new books since the Advanced Class Guide!
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Hell, no. Please, anything but the terrible, broken mythic rules.Don't worry. You've won that fight.
Well. That's depressing.
Thanks for the kind words, Zhangar, and as for mythic rules support for the newer classes... that's coming this fall when we run our second mythic Kickstarter to cover all the new books since the Advanced Class Guide!
Cool.
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I am a huge fan of using the Mythic rules (with many of the recommendations offered by Legendary Games), and I am currently running a mythic Kingmaker AP for a homebrewed campaign. If anything, the amount of 3PP mythic content I own is starting to creep up on the amount of non-mythic content I own from Paizo in sheer page numbers. Which is kind of frightening in its own way.
That being said, I am working (slowly) on doing mythic conversions of older Dungeons and Dragons adventures, such as Tomb of the Mud Sorcerer and Castle Maure. There is also the only epic level adventure (I forget the name at the moment) in the Dungeon magazines that was intended for pc levels 30 and above that i will eventually convert over to mythic rules as well.
My point is that I am always interested in more mythic content for my players. I run so infrequently that in order to get the most out of our gaming time for our group, I tend to run truly epic fantasy stuff without having to rely greatly on high level spells. That's why I like most of the 3PP Mythic content that has been released so far.
CB
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I wouldn't mind playing an AP were you max out your mythic tiers at the 2-5 range. You could save the 6-10 tiers for the post game stuff as an option.
Magnuskn Crusade?
I think they meant his extreme hatred for mythic rules. Like it goes beyond people who every time bestiary releases comments about their favorite types of monsters not being in, he really hates mythic and made that very clear
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Creative Director
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I am a huge fan of using the Mythic rules (with many of the recommendations offered by Legendary Games), and I am currently running a mythic Kingmaker AP for a homebrewed campaign. If anything, the amount of 3PP mythic content I own is starting to creep up on the amount of non-mythic content I own from Paizo in sheer page numbers. Which is kind of frightening in its own way.
That being said, I am working (slowly) on doing mythic conversions of older Dungeons and Dragons adventures, such as Tomb of the Mud Sorcerer and Castle Maure. There is also the only epic level adventure (I forget the name at the moment) in the Dungeon magazines that was intended for pc levels 30 and above that i will eventually convert over to mythic rules as well.
My point is that I am always interested in more mythic content for my players. I run so infrequently that in order to get the most out of our gaming time for our group, I tend to run truly epic fantasy stuff without having to rely greatly on high level spells. That's why I like most of the 3PP Mythic content that has been released so far.
CB
We did about four epic level adventures in Dungeon. The first one was one I wrote called "Razing of Redshore" which was for 20th level characters and was meant to transition them to epic level during the course of the adventure. The second was "Storm Lord's Keep" in the very next issue. Then there was Quicksilver Hourglass, which was for 30th level characters IIRC, and finally, the last installment of Savage Tide had a significant portion that expected the PCs to be 21st level.
Dang, I had forgotten about those adventures. I gm'ed Savage Tide, which was a heck of a lot of fun, but we did not get a chance to finish it for a number of reasons. Which is a shame, but I hope to use those crazy stat blocks of The Witch Queen, The Goat, and The Child (all old school references, heh).
Quicksilver Hourglass, that was the name of it. I liked the complexity of the "dungeon" in that one. Razing of Redshore, I didn't run, but it was interesting to see an awakened druid animal companion being a major npc in an epic adventure.
Thanks for the reminder about those epic adventures. Although The Harrowing adventure in Dungeon magazine was technically not an epic level adventure, if I recall correctly, pcs who failed to complete certain actions would be facing a final encounter against an epic level drow sorceress (I think) whose spellcasting level would be 21+ (something like level 26 or thereabouts).
Epic/mythic adventures are really tricky to build right. The hardest part, I feel, for game and adventure designers is ensuring that high level pcs are balanced against high level dangers/encounters and vice-versa.
Although there were flaws with the Mythic Adventures and the Wrath of Righteous AP, I still commend Paizo for actually trying something rather bold and innovative as an alternative to the old 3.5 epic rules (which itself was far from perfect too). The concept of mythic is a great idea and as an optional system, it is really useful to run certain genres and settings.
CB
Any chance of the occasional adventure path containing a page giving advice on how to potentially mythicize a campaign? Id love to get some more help in adding touches of mythic to the end of campaigns (forming the sihedron, performing the song of silver, stuff like that)
Any chance of the occasional adventure path containing a page giving advice on how to potentially mythicize a campaign? Id love to get some more help in adding touches of mythic to the end of campaigns (forming the sihedron, performing the song of silver, stuff like that)
This is actually a good idea. Unfortunately it would require them to cut a page from elsewhere. The only place I think it would be productive to do so would be reducing the foreword section to 1 page (I may be wrong but I think it normally is 2 pages long). Not sure how likely that is.
Perhaps at the final adventure of an AP they could introduce a small section in the conclusion area briefly outlining what monsters and npcs in the entire AP who be suitable as mythic (after all, not every single monster or npc are easy to implement mythic ranks/tiers without a significant rewrite or re-imagining). The number of mythic tier the GM's wants for his players is up to the GMs so we don't really need that info from Paizo.
CB
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Any chance of the occasional adventure path containing a page giving advice on how to potentially mythicize a campaign? Id love to get some more help in adding touches of mythic to the end of campaigns (forming the sihedron, performing the song of silver, stuff like that)
Honestly, this is where the message boards come in and really shine. Some super smart people that hang out on the AP boards.
Take advantage of them utilize them. :-)
True. As Dragonchess pointed out earlier in-thread, there are a number of APs that have been modified by board members for mythic play. Still, I know that a lot of players (including GMs) are only comfortable with using "official" materials put forth by the game/adventure designers. I get their concerns in that regard but it is a bit of a shame that they are missing out on some of the most flavourful modifications out there to enjoy a given adventure. I mean, damn, the best gaming moments I enjoyed in the last couple of years are due to taking suggestions from board members on altering specific segments of published materials, :)
CB
I'm doing a similar thing myself for hells rebels (they go mythic after performing the song of silver, ideally while fighting a mythic rivozair) but I feel like one page out of an entire AP shouldn't be too hard to find. That said my hells rebels game is so far off book at this point, I've got entire subplots that grew out of one flubbed answer to a players question.
Any chance of the occasional adventure path containing a page giving advice on how to potentially mythicize a campaign? Id love to get some more help in adding touches of mythic to the end of campaigns (forming the sihedron, performing the song of silver, stuff like that)Honestly, this is where the message boards come in and really shine. Some super smart people that hang out on the AP boards.
Take advantage of themutilize them. :-)
Excellent advice.
Hell, no. Please, anything but the terrible, broken mythic rules. Maybe in Pathfinder Second Edition, where they were actually playtested beyond tier 3.Geez, you are still traumatized by your Wrath of the Righteous campaign? :D
Still my worst experience in Pathfinder, yes.
Hell, no. Please, anything but the terrible, broken mythic rules.Don't worry. You've won that fight.
Thank you. Very sincerely, thank you.
Mythic is perfectly fine when using Legendary Games' supplements and discarding the notion that the CR system is able to handle mythic characters.
WotR is perfectly fine when played using non-mythic or max 3rd tier PCs.
But if Paizo does anything, we'll have to endure The Second Magnuskn Crusade anyway, so I can see why they are reluctant.
Unlikely, given that I'd avoid that AP like the Black Death crossed with Cholera. I'd unsuscribe during its publication, though.
I'd rather get more AP's like the just now announced political intrigue Taldor AP. Just what I've been wanting for a long time.
Magnuskn Crusade?
I guess he refers to my very vocal unhappyness with Wrath of the Righteous, which I GM'ed to conclusion. Review here, just if anybody cares to waste some time on a thread from 2 1/2 years ago.
Just to check, you do hate it so much that even if everyone would tell you its been fixed, ye would still avoid it, right?
AP's are a very large time investment. I might buy it to check it out, but GM'ing it... not likely, especially if there are by now two AP's (Hell's Rebels and this new one) waiting in the wings to be GM'ed. And that is after I'm done with Reign of Winter, which is still only in module two. So, even if we'd get a hypothetical fixed mythic AP, I could only even check it out after about four years from now. ^^
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Legendary Games has cornered the market on third party mythic gaming at this point. Their work is top notch. I'm glad to have come into the mythic rule set later rather than sooner as they were able to help iron out some of the wrinkles.
Speaking of which, their new mythic mania kickstarter is starting soon or is already under way.
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C'mon, I make one comment after, what, one year of not talking about it? In a thread which specifically mentions the topic. It's not as if I am constantly bringing it up by myself. Hell, I don't even post much at all anymore. The thread just caught my attention.
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Legendary Games has cornered the market on third party mythic gaming at this point. Their work is top notch. I'm glad to have come into the mythic rule set later rather than sooner as they were able to help iron out some of the wrinkles.
Speaking of which, their new mythic mania kickstarter is starting soon or is already under way.
While I will wholeheartedly agree that Legendary Games have the bulk of the mythic market, I do wish to point out that other 3PPs do produce excellent mythic products.
Which isn't going to change the fact that I really love the mythic rules and despite some problems (the vast majority of which are completely eliminated thanks to Mythic Solutions from LG) I will always be interested in more mythic adventure material.
I really like the Transcendentalist Path from the Four Horseman. I doubt I'll get the chance to play it, but the work is there.
What other 3PP Mythic would you recommend?
Obviously the big 3 mythic books - Mythic Hero Handbook, Mythic Spell Compendium, and Mythic Monster Manual. Those are the joint efforts of LG, Rogue Genius Games, and two other 3PP I think that I cannot remember offhand at work who are they. Four Horsemen's Mythic Archetypes and Mythic Kingdoms are really flavourful and crunchy.
I think I may have a few other 3PP for mythic but I would have to check my computer at home to know for sure.
CB
Thanks!
I've found that Mythic is great for solo PCs and I really think it may be viable to have a single mythic PC go through an AP.
I'm trying this experiment here on the boards, in fact.
...and yes, I know I'm a couple months late responding to that.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Obviously the big 3 mythic books - Mythic Hero Handbook, Mythic Spell Compendium, and Mythic Monster Manual. Those are the joint efforts of LG, Rogue Genius Games, and two other 3PP I think that I cannot remember offhand at work who are they. Four Horsemen's Mythic Archetypes and Mythic Kingdoms are really flavourful and crunchy.
I think I may have a few other 3PP for mythic but I would have to check my computer at home to know for sure.
CB
The Mythic Mania project also included work from Kobold Press (mythic versions of all of the Deep Magic spells, plus a half dozen or so classes and a handful of feats) and Dreamscarred Press (mythic rules for their psionics, including a psionic path (the Overmind) and some psionic monsters).
We'll be working with Rogue Genius again on Mythic Mania 2, for which they'll be doing mythic versions of class abilities and feats from the Advanced Class Guide, and we'll be doing pretty much everything else.
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I'm kinda sad that the Mythic rules are, at least as far as Paizo is concerned, all but dead.
I accept that they had things in them that made them broken and unworkable long term; that WotR didn't really work right at the higher levels. (That being said, at PaizoCon I heard a couple of people saying that WotR was the best AP ever-- so clearly there *are* some people who have really enjoyed it.)
However, as mentioned, Legendary's Mythic Solutions go a long way to fixing the biggest problem. And, I just like the tenor and feel of the mythic games, where the PCs are really something special. (Of course, high level characters are already something special... but a mythic ascension turns that up to 11.)
I have a mythic one-shot I've run three times ("Find Jatembe" -- I ran it twice at PaizoCon a few years ago) where the PCs are level 12 with 4 mythic tiers. It works.)
(Interestingly, different groups have had quite different experiences with the last fight. The first group that played it handled the fight pretty readily. The second group was struggling before we got cut off by a closing room and I narrated the end. The third group basically ROFLstomped it. I see the same huge variation in running different groups through the same PFS scenarios. How tactical the players are in using everything absolutely to their advantage -- even with the same statted characters -- makes a huge difference. I find that some optimizer-type characters bring their optimization into play, not just into character creation.)