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Reasons why silksworn dip works for the Unchained Rogue where base doesn't:
5 focus points with a reasonable stat array (8/17/13/14/12/14) -- and dex immediately goes to 19.
Several good choices for third and fourth schools, once you end up getting that +4 belt (I lean divination and enchantment)
Opens up Arcane Strike
Opens up Arcane Trickster (though that's probably a trap)
Magical Knack opens up Arcane Armor Training, which with a mithril chain shirt negates ASF. If you use the spells enough to care.
I have a long specialization vs generalization rant, which I will spare you. But in general, specialization is rewarded in predictable and routine situations and generalization is rewarded in unpredictable and punishing situations. PFS is pretty predictable...but the times it goes sideways you really need the flexibility.
With medium the problem is that it isn't really a generalist -- it gives you a daily choice of which subpar specialist you want to be. An actual generalist has access to all of their options all of the time. Seven focus points (which takes some doing) is where silksworn starts to be a strictly better dip than base Occultist. The question (which others can answer better than I can) is how much do you have to give up to get there, and can you manage to do that without trading out anything you care about.
Does the Silkworn Occultist lose access to Panopolies?yes
That's not a small loss.
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Reasons why silksworn dip works for the Unchained Rogue where base doesn't:
5 focus points with a reasonable stat array (8/17/13/14/12/14) -- and dex immediately goes to 19.
Several good choices for third and fourth schools, once you end up getting that +4 belt (I lean divination and enchantment)
Opens up Arcane Strike
Opens up Arcane Trickster (though that's probably a trap)
Magical Knack opens up Arcane Armor Training, which with a mithril chain shirt negates ASF. If you use the spells enough to care.
So being a silksworn over base has gotten you:
the ability to spend a feat to spend your swift for +1 damage.the ability to spend a feat to spend your swift to cast a weak spell in armor if you use a trait for it.
2 more spells known.
2 mental focus, which having 5 instead of 3 lets you gain your choice of +1 percpetion or +1 to cha skills or temporary +1 cloak.
What you don't get:
martial weapon proficiency,
free casting in armor,
2 mental focus,
No bypassing trait for mithral breastplate.
So sure, something IS better than nothing, and for this rogue the silksworn would probably be the better dip choice.
NOW, if you can show me that it is the superior dip choice for ALL dips then we have an issue. OR if you can show how this silksworn dip has broken the game compared to a normal dip.
Seven focus points (which takes some doing) is where silksworn starts to be a strictly better dip than base Occultist. The question (which others can answer better than I can) is how much do you have to give up to get there, and can you manage to do that without trading out anything you care about.
getting 7 focus would require a stat array of 7/16/13/16/7/16 to pull off. You've tanked str a bit more, and your will save loss from stats isn't even made up from the good will save of occultist.
Also a normal occultist could be 8/17/13/16/12/10 and only be down 1 mental focus and with these stats the silksword wouldn't get any bonus mental focus, and a base occultist allows for 8/17/14/16/12/8 for a more hardy rogue with 4 points while taking silksworn here actually loses mental focus.
but even with all the mental focus, which bonuses are worth the dip besides transmutation? Is getting +1 to perception AND cha skill along with the stat boost somehow game breaking compared to just the stat boost and better armor and weapons?
So yes, some builds would prefer silksworn over base for their dip, if there weren't it'd be a bad archetype. But if you only look at how it's a slightly better archetype for (random say 10%) of build and don't care that it's a worse dip for (random say 40%) of build, and just an equal trade for the remaining 50% of builds then I don't think it's fair. Like the scaled monk should be banned cause it's tons better dip for the wis dumped, CHA pumped builds than a normal monk dip. Both archetypes don't invalidate their alternatives in any majority sense.
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Reasons why silksworn dip works for the Unchained Rogue where base doesn't:
5 focus points with a reasonable stat array (8/17/13/14/12/14) -- and dex immediately goes to 19.
They've got the ability score problem more or less figured out, I admit.
Several good choices for third and fourth schools, once you end up getting that +4 belt (I lean divination and enchantment)
+1 Perception and +1 on certain rolls as an immediate action isn't terribly worrisome to me. Dazing 1-HD creatures isn't very impressive, but the +1 on all Charisma-based skills isn't bad. I'm still not convinced that adding these options to this character's portfolio are particularly problematic.
Opens up Arcane Strike
I'm definitely not concerned about spending a feat to spend a swift action to gain +1 to damage.
Opens up Arcane Trickster (though that's probably a trap)
I already considered various prestige classes and determined that none were impressive enough to mention.
Magical Knack opens up Arcane Armor Training, which with a mithril chain shirt negates ASF. If you use the spells enough to care.
A valid point. Spending a feat and a trait, plus a swift action to activate, gets you back to where the base occultist was. Seems like a reasonable price for the greater versatility of spells known to me.
I have a long specialization vs generalization rant, which I will spare you. But in general, specialization is rewarded in predictable and routine situations and generalization is rewarded in unpredictable and punishing situations. PFS is pretty predictable...but the times it goes sideways you really need the flexibility.
Assuming that those two additional spells known and base focus powers are what the unexpected situation calls for. (That said, I definitely agree that overspecialization can be an issue, and that well-balanced characters have a lot of advantages.)
With medium the problem is that it isn't really a generalist -- it gives you a daily choice of which subpar specialist you want to be. An actual generalist has access to all of their options all of the time. Seven focus points (which takes some doing) is where silksworn starts to be a strictly better dip than base Occultist. The question (which others can answer better than I can) is how much do you have to give up to get there, and can you manage to do that without trading out anything you care about.
I don't know if I'd go as far as "strictly better" - to me, that implies increased benefit as zero cost, which is only likely for characters with no interest in armor, no spellcasting advancement, and relatively compatible ability scores. I'd agree to "relatively advantageous", perhaps. ^_^
As for hitting that seven-point threshold: while I haven't fully worked out why that's the magic number, for the rogue mentioned above, the Irrepressible trait might let you steal a few points out of Wisdom. Between that and an advantageous race (such as elf), you might be able to get there.
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You missed the part where what I really wanted was the 5% concealment miss chance from the illusion focus, to allow me to stealth without cover. If that trick works, it is huge.
Yeah, this build probably doesn't get to 7 fp without spending a feat (or cherry-picking a race) which probably isn't worth it. Other classes which get more out of ain't and Cha probably could.The actual reason to get to seven isn't for the static bonuses, it's to open up more base powers at reasonable cost. Let's call it divination, so that I now have 3 legacy weapons a day, 2 illusions, and 2 +1 insight bonuses. Gamebreaking? No. Undervalued? I think so.
Like I said earlier, I think I could make a Kensai, a Psychic, a Bard, and an Oracle that really leveraged a silksworn dip. I don't think I could break the game with those, but I don't build those kinds of characters. If someone else wants to try, that's where I'd look.
Edit: Sorry on my iPad so direct replies are tough. This was mostly directed at Thomas Hutchins points.
On why seven focus points is the difference maker, that's because that's the point where it is advantageous to invest in more than two implements. Before that, silksworn gives you some versatility, but not enough for it to matter much.
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You missed the part where what I really wanted was the 5% concealment miss chance from the illusion focus, to allow me to stealth without cover. If that trick works, it is huge.
I didn't think I missed it? I'm pretty sure I mentioned it up there, at least. In any case, that's equally available to the base occultist.
Yeah, this build probably doesn't get to 7 fp without spending a feat (or cherry-picking a race) which probably isn't worth it. Other classes which get more out of ain't and Cha probably could.The actual reason to get to seven isn't for the static bonuses, it's to open up more base powers at reasonable cost. Let's call it divination, so that I now have 3 legacy weapons a day, 2 illusions, and 2 +1 insight bonuses. Gamebreaking? No. Undervalued? I think so.
It may very well be undervalued. For my purposes in this thread, though, there are only really two results: "bad enough to ban the archetype over" and "not bad enough to justify the ban". I believe it falls into the latter category.
Like I said earlier, I think I could make a Kensai, a Psychic, a Bard, and an Oracle that really leveraged a silksworn dip. I don't think I could break the game with those, but I don't build those kinds of characters. If someone else wants to try, that's where I'd look.
I'm not really equipped for this either, I'm afraid.
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Edit: Sorry on my iPad so direct replies are tough. This was mostly directed at Thomas Hutchins points.
Fair enough; carry on. ^_^
On why seven focus points is the difference maker, that's because that's the point where it is advantageous to invest in more than two implements. Before that, silksworn gives you some versatility, but not enough for it to matter much.
I see. Still, if you have to divert significant resources to accomplish that end, then I don't think it's too catastrophic.
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You missed the part where what I really wanted was the 5% concealment miss chance from the illusion focus, to allow me to stealth without cover. If that trick works, it is huge.
You are aware that even if it works, the concealment only lasts until you attack, and takes a standard action to activate it. So if that's the trick you're looking for you're better getting a ki pool and vanishing, or going sorcerer with the magical knack trait and vanish for total invisibility when you try to pull the trick off. You'll only be able to do it 4 times a day instead of 5 though.
Well I just realized that I guess out of combat is probably what you're referring to. Which for sure makes me say no it can't work since it's in no way supposed to be better than invisibility.
Yeah, this build probably doesn't get to 7 fp without spending a feat (or cherry-picking a race) which probably isn't worth it. Other classes which get more out of Int and Cha probably could.The actual reason to get to seven isn't for the static bonuses, it's to open up more base powers at reasonable cost. Let's call it divination, so that I now have 3 legacy weapons a day, 2 illusions, and 2 +1 insight bonuses. Gamebreaking? No. Undervalued? I think so.
I'm guessing you mean
Sudden Insight, for the +1 insights. I'm not sure which illusions you see as being worth considering valuable.legacy weapon takes a standard action to use, yes bane is good, but you still give up a standard for it, and 3-4 of them is every fight.
spending a swift action to get +1 to an attack, skill or ability check doesn't seem like a great deal twice a day and by doing so removing your perception bonus. Like is that really a big enough perk that it at all is some tipping point of having the silksworn be to OP for some perfectly stat aligned builds? Plus it's conflicting with other swift actions that you could leverage.
Like I said earlier, I think I could make a Kensai, a Psychic, a Bard, and an Oracle that really leveraged a silksworn dip. I don't think I could break the game with those, but I don't build those kinds of characters. If someone else wants to try, that's where I'd look.
Kensai has no reason to want CHA, So he'd be looking at only having 4-5 and not being able to dump CHA to get standard action bane and not get another arcane pool point, and delayed features, and delayed potential AC. Yeah, really not seeing how a kensai would prefer a dip to silksworn.
Bard, a bard dip is delaying getting heroism, more heroisms, and good hope/haste. Also delaying bardic performance bonus and stopping you from naturally getting the final +1 at lv11 in standard PFS play. Also it's lowered your Bab, and brought in ASF to consider. You've gained, what? getting a small bonus to some skills while you wait for your circlet?
So spending a swift to get the +1 insight to attack rolls is just helping overcome the penalty to attack rolls you gave yourself. A bard would probably prefer this just to be sure to get the 3 mental focus needed for the transmutation resonance, but it's not seeming to be a much better dip for any reason.
oracle, oh look the CHA abusing class, yes, anything that can leverage CHA is a better choice for this class than ones that can't. Just like scaled fist is clearly the better choice for an occultist, so too is the silksworn. You're still not really gaining anything over a normal dip for others are giving.
Like, what non-scaling base or focus power, other than transmutation, is really worth having the extra focus to an extent that it's invalidated all other dip choices for most everyone to validate this archetype being banned.
*This is WHY I wish we had some direction onto why something is banned. We could spend many pages talking about how feature X or Z isn't an issue when leadership decided that B was the no go feature.
Like if I understand right the only reason they don't IS TO not allow people the ability to question the ruling and petition for it's allowance, yet that's what we're supposed to do if there's something we want legalized that was banned? But now getting to go on about how it's fine with no ability to address any of the concerns that brought about it's exile. Thus making them less helpful to leadership in taking a second look since it might be PAGES between useful talk on the real issue.
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No bypassing trait for mithral breastplate.
That's about the easiest thing TO do. I've a number of characters in Mithril (including breastplates) with no medium OR light armor proficiency.
I think we get it, your position is "you guys were idiots for not letting this one in." If that's not your position, you might want to consider your writing tone. It should also be clear by this point that everything you're going to come, those of us that do see the power creep with this AT are going to be able to counter.
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No bypassing trait for mithral breastplate.That's about the easiest thing TO do. I've a number of characters in Mithril (including breastplates) with no medium OR light armor proficiency.
Right, isn't the way to do that without any penalties by taking the trait? Like yes traits aren't super amazing, but it's still a drawback if it's something a class is likely to consider.
I think we get it, your position is "you guys were idiots for not letting this one in." If that's not your position, you might want to consider your writing tone. It should also be clear by this point that everything you're going to come, those of us that do see the power creep with this AT are going to be able to counter.
Why does it come across that I am calling anyone idiots for banning this? Is not the point of this thread to examine all the angles and see if we can "prove" that there's no reason for it to be banned and thus get it to be legalized? Or to "prove" that it is clearly superior and thus deserving of a ban? If we just accept my view that it's okay, or the view saying it's clearly OP, good thing it's banned without questioning and without providing evidence and reasoning as to why we've come to that view then we're not actually taking a serious look at the archetype and if the illegality was an oversight.
Also, if it's clear to some why this is clearly power creep why do they not share that explanation? In lots of my posts responding to views I state, "correct me if I'm wrong", "unless I'm missing something", or "my best guess for your build would be X". If you say it's clear power creep because it has a cool name for an archetype I'll be questioning you on that to see why you feel that way and to look into it to see if there's really any reason to feel that way.
It should also be clear by this point that everything you're going to come, those of us that do see the power creep with this AT are going to be able to counter.
Now, I do want to make clear that I'm not exactly certain what you were meaning with this part. Did you start one sentence/thought and change to another midway? The only thing I think you could be saying is that it should be clear to me that ones that think it's power creep can counter any claim that it's not OP.
Is that right? If so, PLEASE do so. So far I feel no ones seriously discussed to a point of understanding why one would think so. I see no strong evidence to support any appreciable difference in player trends reacting to this archetype as most other well made archetypes. No mass abandonment of base occultist or other archetypes of occultist, no flocking to all play an occultist cause this is just too much clearly a good option. I can agree to disagree. If the view is that having 2 more spells known in a dip is the reason one would call creep I don't feel a need to convert them. I will question them to try to understand and to expound on the issue for the reexamination of legality.
I'll say that it kinda seems like you might purposefully be reading in some negative intent or goal in my posts. I personally am not affected by this being legal or not, I had already decided that I wasn't interested in playing one enough to play it over the dozens of other builds I want to play. But I enjoy analyzing things and having intelligent discussions. Personally I currently don't see anything here that causes the entire kit to be too OP warranting a ban, and the few things, like the hidden casting, being a plausible reason for the ban, but that issue can just be solved by giving the hide casting feat instead. I don't believe I've attacked anyone for their view, nor belittled them for having their view. Just questioning them as to why they have that view to see if I should change, or to give all the info to the person who may read this thread to reconsider the silksworn.
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You missed the part where what I really wanted was the 5% concealment miss chance from the illusion focus, to allow me to stealth without cover. If that trick works, it is huge.You are aware that even if it works, the concealment only lasts until you attack, and takes a standard action to activate it. So if that's the trick you're looking for you're better getting a ki pool and vanishing, or going sorcerer with the magical knack trait and vanish for total invisibility when you try to pull the trick off. You'll only be able to do it 4 times a day instead of 5 though.
Vanishing trick is better, but uses a ki pool. The standard action concealment does not expend a focus point (it's the resonant power, not the base power) so you can do it all day long. Which makes it very similar to Feinting, but utilizing stealth.
I've played a *lot* of Arcane Rogue types -- they're solidly in my wheelhouse. Silksworn brings several powerful new things to that table. Which, honestly I'd love to play -- I hope you are successful getting this legalized.
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Three points:
1. This discussion has been fantastically civil, and I really appreciate the good faith efforts on both sides to make their points politely.
2. I've never played an Occultist nor a PFS game, so I don't have a view or personal investment either way.
3. I imagine this conversation puts the PFS leadership in somewhat of an awkward position: on the one hand, they've prohibited something that the writer is strongly and quite publicly in favor of including. On the other hand, it's already been prohibited and if they change the ruling it might appear they've done so more out of professional courtesy than because they've been persuaded otherwise.
So this might be the sort of thing to just let simmer for a while, because without knowing exactly why it has been banned, discussions about the archetype in the abstract may miss the mark as often as they hit.
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I'd like to return to a point I made earlier: I've seen a lot of player excitement for this option from a "I want to play the clothes-obsessed fancy boi" side of things. I know several people who have ideas percolating for characters because it's immediately draws up character concepts. While I want to play my overly bejeweled halfling, I also want to play a hipster half-orc silksworn occultist. This is because 1) occultists are my favorite class and 2) the silksworn is such an evocative archetype. I've made a tome eater for similar reasons.
One thing I've worried a bit in this conversation is that occultists are a complicated and confusing class. It makes having this conversation more difficult, as well as having the conversation about what the occultist archetypes' power levels should be. Mental focus powers are especially complicated, as they balance powerful secondary spell options (like flight, dispel magic, etc) by balancing them with strict limitations (shortened duration, limited number of targets, standard action activation, required cost of focus points).
I have great respect for people that disagree with my personal assessment that this archetype is balanced; we all value different parts of the game. I think that the trade off of martial capabilities for casting abilities is appropriate. I understand it's possible to get the martial abilities back, but in ways that have costs that balance out getting those abilities back (the loss of casting progression, spending a big chunk of gold on a magic item, focusing on other ability scores, spending feats). I also do not think that this is going to become an overly dominant archetype, much like how the battlehost occultist didn't become overly dominant.
However, I also understand that people have legitimate concerns, particularly around the 12th level concealed casting ability, the increase in the number of available spell schools/spells, and the increase in mental focus. For me, I see these as balanced by limitations that do come up in play. That doesn't mean that those points are illegitimate; I just believe that when looked at the archetype as a whole, they are balanced out in other ways.
When I consider how I would decisions around inclusion in PFS to work is: "Is this more helpful to the campaign or more harmful?". Inclusion of most rules I would say defaults to helpful; excitement about new options and the ability to use most rules is a big part of PFS. When it comes to this archetype, I can't dismiss the excitement that people I know and I have over the possibility of playing a silksworn because of its situation within the game world. It ties in particularly well with the way that Taldan nobility is portrayed, and I feel like it could also find a home in a number of other regions (imagine a Kalistrocrat Silksworn! Or a Five Kings envoy silksworn! Or an exiled Galt noble silksworn!). This, for me, places it in the "more helpful than harmful" category.
3. I imagine this conversation puts the PFS leadership in somewhat of an awkward position: on the one hand, they've prohibited something that the writer is strongly and quite publicly in favor of including. On the other hand, it's already been prohibited and if they change the ruling it might appear they've done so more out of professional courtesy than because they've been persuaded otherwise.
Reversal of bannings isn't uncommon, and I feel like author inclusion can be illuminating. Isabelle didn't call for the request, to be honest. Maybe leadership feels like it's been put in a weird spot, maybe it hasn't. The power is still firmly in their hands to decide what is or isn't happening.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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NOW, if you can show me that it is the superior dip choice for ALL dips then we have an issue. OR if you can show how this silksworn dip has broken the game compared to a normal dip.
I gave you the reason. Then you huffed and puffed and said its not that impressive. The Occultist is the walking golf ball bag of martial combat users. Hence the reason why its a pretty impressive 1 level dip more so for support characters.
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It's that the writer thinks it's balanced, thus they wrote it, and so they are a great source to show why they thought it was balanced. I don't feel like Isabelle is championing or pushing to get this legalized. Just that, as the creator, she can answer questions about intended power and explain reasoning as to why it's not OP.
Like you can notice that a lot of her's and my posts ninja each other saying the same things to someone's claim of OP. It's cause both of us are explaining the view of why it not OP in response to the claim of OP. If she wasn't posting at all, the thread would still be the same, so I'm pretty sure that PFS leadership wouldn't factor her participating in the thread to mean anything.
A similar situation happened with the Desna feat that gave CHA for attack and damage with starknives. The creator was pretty active in that "Is it OP" thread explaining why he thought it wasn't. And, I had the stance that it wasn't for that too interestingly enough.
My view is kinda like this.
If you have a job that offers you X money and Y benefits and a job offer that offers money and benefits and you live in a certain place. Increasing the job offer doesn't do enough to alter your position since you still prefer your current job. It's only once the offer is better than current that you've really changed your position. If your location changes but your job didn't, then I don't see that as a problem either.
So using silksworn and the base occultist. The base occultist is the current job. The silksworn is the offer. The offer isn't good enough that most people will swap, but it's good enough that some will want to swap. That sounds like just the place we want archetypes. Is it bad that a casting focused archetype can still be built to handle combat okay? I don't think so, we don't need to nuke combat to buff spells some.
And cha with starknives I viewed as maybe changing the location of some builds (battle focused oracles or bards) without changing what they are doing, and as increasing the job offer you're not accepting for caster focused builds (sorcerers and oracles). Though I do admit that this feat seemed more potentially game altering than this silksworn archetype.
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My planned build was a kindred raised half elf. 7/10/11/19/10/18 at first. With extra mental focus starting at 11.5 and gaining 1.5 per level. Though even a less focused b8 can power 3 implements easily
I assume that you're leaning heavily on the abjuration implement for saving throws. Even with that, those are some risky-looking statistics. And your hit points can't be looking too good, even with the transmutation implement buffing Con. This ability array looks like a major glass cannon to me, although without the rest of your build, I can't be certain.
It hearkens back to the discussion we didn't have about generalization vs. specialization. You can get a lot of mental focus out of the silksworn, it's true. But I'm not sure that it's worth the price you're paying. ^_^
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I gave you the reason. Then you huffed and puffed and said its not that impressive. The Occultist is the walking golf ball bag of martial combat users. Hence the reason why its a pretty impressive 1 level dip more so for support characters.NOW, if you can show me that it is the superior dip choice for ALL dips then we have an issue. OR if you can show how this silksworn dip has broken the game compared to a normal dip.
Please don't do this. You can be dismissive or helpful. Reiterate you main point, as I don't recall off-hand what the reason you gave was.
And please don't view me questioning or not automatically accepting whatever you said as "huffed and puffed", it was likely me trying to explain WHY I don't see it as that impressive. If you feel some of my reasoning is off that's where you're supposed to respond back on some of the points to try and explain WHY I might have overlooked something, or why it's better than I'm giving it credit for. That's how you have a discussion, with a few rounds of back and forth as we are able to understand.Yes, the occultist is a strong dip for many classes, IS the silksworn making it that much better is the question. A base occultist gets to had out bane off of 1 level dip. The silksworn does that and gets +1 to perception or CHA skills cause of the extra mental focus, is that small bonus really so much of a boon to out way all the things it's not giving to the main class?
And yes, the silksworn should for sure 100% be the better choice for some builds, otherwise it's a bad archetype. So if it's good for a few builds, but still isn't the best choice for a lot of builds then it's probably in a good place.
The Occultist is the walking golf ball bag of martial combat users. Hence the reason why its a pretty impressive 1 level dip more so for support characters.
So I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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And please don't view me questioning or not automatically accepting whatever you said as "huffed and puffed", it was likely me trying to explain WHY I don't see it as that impressive.
I apologize about my statement. Most of this just seems to be a massive disagreement over play styles which makes this whole discussion weird and I was acerbic.
You just said that bypassing one of the worst forms of damage reduction is not impressive. To me its one of the most painfully annoying things about playing a martial character. And mind you the most dangerous monsters also have the worst forms of it too. I do think you are right about it being not as bad of a one level dip for Martials but for support characters especially Bards would be amazing. Of course my bard is really odd so...
have to disagree in the extreme on arcanist
Yeah, arcanist is definitely Tier 1, with wizards and razmiran priest sorcerers.
Silksworn are at best low Tier 2, though I would probably put them in Tier 3.
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And please don't view me questioning or not automatically accepting whatever you said as "huffed and puffed", it was likely me trying to explain WHY I don't see it as that impressive.I apologize about my statement. Most of this just seems to be a massive disagreement over play styles which makes this whole discussion weird and I was acerbic.
You just said that bypassing one of the worst forms of damage reduction is not impressive. To me its one of the most painfully annoying things about playing a martial character. And mind you the most dangerous monsters also have the worst forms of it too. I do think you are right about it being not as bad of a one level dip for Martials but for support characters especially Bards would be amazing. Of course my bard is really odd so...
So Adamantine DR. for the occultist to bypass adamantine you've either picked up the focus power to do so or are more likely using the +1 and bane to bypass it, so I'll assume the later since it make the most sense.
To me, DR adamantine hasn't shown up all that often. It on Golems and stoneskin and earth kineticists and I'm not sure what else reliably has DR adamntine. So yes you'll bypass it and I wont, but this comes into play maybe once in a character's career? And the bard can just buy an adamantine weapon (for some reason it's super popular in my local lodge cause a few people love adamantine and so even shardra like shamans have adamantine weapons)at lv5 bard is attacking for 1d8+14, at lv6 it's 1d8+17, and lv7 it's probably 1d8+19. DR 5 isn't really stopping us since we do a big hit, reducing from 1/3 to 1/4 of the damage. dr10 goes from a lot to just half our damage. I don't expect dr15 this early. But that's also just our personal damage at lv5 we do bonus damage off of everyone else that hits and at lv7 that bonus damage is "doubled"
So this is why I value less that it bypasses adamantine DR. If you have more evidence to common enemies or frequency then this might get revised.
Also yes, the silksworn is more enticing for a dip with a bard than original, but how much more is it really getting? Like once you've taken away the baseline dip of having at least 3 mental focus and transmutation school what little perks of the silksworn are left to say that this is clearly broken? Cause if it's not broken, then being slightly better for bard and worse for the cha dumped investigator while the base is reversed looks to be the correct spot to be in.
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I'm planning on taking a look at the arcanist comparison later tonight if someone doesn't do a deep one before then, but I need to leave now.
There's no point. The writer of that post has forgotten that Arcanists:
1. Are full casters, and therefore gain spells far faster than Silksworn
2. Are prepared casters, and can swap their spells with a standard action, making them far more versatile than Silksworn
3. Have a far better spell list than Skilsworn
4. Have exploits which are far more powerful than almost any Focus Power, and powered by points that are under much less stringent requirements than a Silksworn.
I'd hazard a guess that the poster has never played either an Occultist or Arcanist, or seen one played.
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The first thing to realize is that the base occultist already knows more spells than any other spontaneous caster, due to their unique spells known device.
So the silksworn is only giving them 2 more spells known, which is a big deal for sure, but they of only the schools that they have chosen.
So while the arcanist can know 4 transmutation lv1 spells, 3 evocation lv2 spells, and 2 necromancy for level 3 if they wanted, the silksworn is stuck to their schools. And the arcanist has it even better, if he wants to suddenly know only enchantment spells for a day, he can do that.
So SS more versatility in a day, Arcanist more versatility preparing for a day and don't need to plan their spell levels by school.
spells per day, at lv4 the arcanist has 6 and the occultist has 4.
at lv7 the arcanist has 11 occultist 8. lv8 arcanist has 14, occultist has 13. But if we include spells for high int of 18, the arcanist gains 4 spells per day, while the occultist is gaining only 3, cause the arcanist is a spell level ahead of the occultist here. at lv10 arcanist has 18 base and 24 with int of 20, occultist has 17 base and 22 with int 20.
So the arcanist always has more spells per day, and better spell levels, but the silksworn with it's cool bonus spells per day ability is letting him play with the big boys. This I feel is a huge release of a casting 6th class because you really have enough spells to play with your spells and not need something to really supplement them.
a casting focused SS will likely have 2 or 3 mental focus over the base class. This is enough to power an extra implement at low levels. Now as you progress the question is, how much better are the implements of the SS serving them than the base. Since the powers are unmodified the only benefit the SS is giving is the extra mental focus to use them more per day. But each power is the same strength. I don't feel like really going into this and analyzing all the possible combo stuff, but the thing to remember is we're only caring about what you do with your final 3 points. Cause if you have 6 in transmutation regardless of archetype then we can ignore those points and powers. So if we have say we have 15 points cause we're level 6 with an int of 22 and cha of 16. if 6 are in transmutation and 6 are in evocation regardless of archetype then the bonus three points that SS gave us go to illusion and that's the only thing we gained from this archetype. it resonance and the ability to use it's stuff up to 3 times. Personally I feel we're getting into the rogue skill point problem, you only care about X amount of skills, so the skill points after X are into skills that you don't really care about but are putting points into cause they have to go somewhere.
Now I could totally be wrong, I've not really looked into a casting version and how broken the combos of the powers might be for a caster. But here's my thoughts on the OP ones mentioned.
the energy blast starts off on par with an unspecialized fireball +3. Unlike fireball it scales off 1 per 2 levels rather than per level. So even though each time you get a new d6 you can also have another +1 to damage, the increased die beat it. Now this is supplemental to your spells, but it also uses your focus faster than most abilities.
servitor is just SM at the spell level one would have as a 6th level caster. So sure, extra bodies are nice, it's not a very good one, and you can't even choose from a lower list to get more to just take up space.
And again, this is possible with the base occultist. If you have these it's likely that you'd have had them with a base occultist.
Also, things take actions, and in combat you usually want to use your best actions. So even if you have more uses of an ability per day, if it's your actions for turn 15 and 16 of the day and you never get that far then they didn't help that day.
So the only thing this does it help the occultist go a little bit longer in the day, which doesn't really matter in PFS since you're usually not fighting a ton in one day. (4 fights and only 2 rounds of needing to use good stuff is just 8 turns worth of actions needed)
So yes, the base occultist has some neat tricks that other full caster's can't do, but that's the base so it does carry to SS, but using them 1 or 2 more times, or using a different power that you'd normally not have, don't seem to me as being that much of a game changer. Lasting longer isn't that useful in PFS.
so yeah, all the complaints seem to just be against base occultists and not to SS directly. Is there something I'm overlooking that causes the SS to be more special than I'm giving credit for?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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To me, DR adamantine hasn't shown up all that often. It on Golems and stoneskin and earth kineticists and I'm not sure what else reliably has DR adamntine. So yes you'll bypass it and I wont, but this comes into play maybe once in a character's career? And the bard can just buy an adamantine weapon (for some reason it's super popular in my local lodge cause a few people love adamantine and so even shardra like shamans have adamantine weapons)
Wait the season where Damage Reduction comes up every other scenario and in 1-5's is when you want to make that claim?
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Don't have time to post a build right now, but I make a lot of characters that go into prestige classes, and I think that a silksworn makes a superior chassis for an arcane casting prestige class, especially the ones that require 7 base class levels.
7th level silksworn compared to a 7th level sorceror has more spells known at all levels, better BAB, better saves, and 7th level is a particularly attractive level for focus power effects, making them superior to bloodline powers. (It's where always on darkvision and see invisible kicks in, for instance.) You'd have enough focus points to get one maxed implement, and one or two solid lower level ones. And you have six implements to choose from, which gives you a lot of day to day flexibility. You have fewer spells per day, but you probably have enough for PFS play. Many prestige classes will have you give up a level of spellcasting, but ironically, because the silksworn gets less from each caster level, missing one is less of a drawback.
I have a Sorceror 7/Mystery Cultist 4 in PFS play, and there's no doubt in my mind tha, swapping INT and CHA and replacing the Sorceror levels with silksworn levels would be an upgrade. (Especially on an aasimar, which this character is. Boon only race, so it's worth keeping in mind, but probably not worth worrying about overmuch.)
Now...best chassis for 7th level entry prestige classes isn't really a niche worth bragging about, and I'm not claiming that it's overpowered, but I do think it's a niche where they're a solid step up from what's there now.
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stuff I'll address in a bit
can you share the order of picking implements for an example please. And be sure to list which of the first 4 are the bonus ones .
EDIT: JK see now you already did most of this in the spoilers. I would appreciate still knowing which of the starting 4 are your bonus ones, and I'm going to assume that if you didn't get those 2 at lv1 that's those would be the first to pick up.
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Some thoughts:
Silksworn Occulstist are a strong choice for Occultists.
Being mutually exclusive with both Panoplies and Battle Hosts makes them not an automatic pick.
They seem nice and flavorful and I don't think they are problematically overpowered...
Until you get to their level 12 power.
That is seriously busted and problematic for higher level play.
Once upon a time PFS banned material rather than make changes.
More recently, especially with campagin clarifications PFS has taken unclear material and made to suitable for PFS via that document.
Is that the right thing to do here? The 12th level ability isn't unclear, it's just too game changing.
Basically: is this something we should be doing?
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Being mutually exclusive with both Panoplies and Battle Hosts makes them not an automatic pick.Silksworn can take panoplies as far as I can tell (they are not an archetype), it's just that the two useful, effective ones were banned. Mage was arguably ridiculously strong as anything which negates metamagic cost tends to be.
Silksworn don't get panoplies because panoplies require specific physical implements, and ilksworn don't get those specific implements, they only get access to clothing slots that function as generic implements.
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Being mutually exclusive with both Panoplies and Battle Hosts makes them not an automatic pick.Silksworn can take panoplies as far as I can tell (they are not an archetype), it's just that the two useful, effective ones were banned. Mage was arguably ridiculously strong as anything which negates metamagic cost tends to be.
As I explained in another thread, silksworn can't select panoplies because they don't use normal implements (such as weapons or crystal balls), nor do they select specific objects to serve as implements.
This also tangentially relates to yet another disadvantage to the silksworn, compared to other occultists. Because a silksworn doesn't imbue specific objects with power (instead simply checking whether their item slots are occupied), they can't give their implements to others to benefit from. Minor, perhaps, but still noteworthy.
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Some thoughts:
Silksworn Occulstist are a strong choice for Occultists.
Being mutually exclusive with both Panoplies and Battle Hosts makes them not an automatic pick.
They seem nice and flavorful and I don't think they are problematically overpowered...
Until you get to their level 12 power.
That is seriously busted and problematic for higher level play.
Once upon a time PFS banned material rather than make changes.
More recently, especially with campagin clarifications PFS has taken unclear material and made to suitable for PFS via that document.
Is that the right thing to do here? The 12th level ability isn't unclear, it's just too game changing.
Basically: is this something we should be doing?
Just for the record, I strongly support this solution.
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So here's what the SS has over the base occultist in your example build. This is to show that most of the power of the SS and the fear of it being OP would reside in the base class. I'm going to remove the entries that end up being the same on both versions lists.
Baseline:
- The base is a psychic caster with martial and medium armor proficiency.
- SS is an arcane caster with simple weapon and no armor proficiency.
- both are focusing on casting and have int 19 and cha of 10.
Already, we're talking about base having the equivalent of the light and medium armor feats, and arcane armor mastery with no actions. This advantage exists at ANY LEVEL. If the base is able to come even close to parity with the SS on casting ability / versatility, we already have a problem.
At level 1:
The Silksworn:
- Has 4 implements. Let's pick Evocation, Transmutation, Abjuration, and Divination
- Has 5 focus powers, the base from each implement + the one at 1st level. Let's pick Sudden Speed from Transmutation.
- Knows 4 1st level spells
- Can, on a day to day basis, reallocate focus to garner entirely different sets of powers to use
The Base:
- Has 2 implements. Let's pick Evocation and Transmutation
- Has 3 focus powers, the base from each implement + the one at 1st level. Let's pick Sudden Speed from Transmutation.
- Knows 2 1st level spells
- Can use chain shirt and heavy shield for +6 AC
Verdict, the base is missing out on the resistance and detect magic 0 level spells, but detect magic is often covered by someone in PFS and isn't needed to determine items starting next level, So in PFS I'm not seeing the loss of either as mattering. Losing out on the 2 level 1 spells known does decrease our versatility somewhat, but we still have 2 good spells to use. Also, our AC is 6 higher, meaning if something does come to hit us we don't need to worry as much. Also base can't mix it up on a day yet. On a normal day the extra implements don't have focus to use any of their abilities, and so they are only granting us 2 spells known.
At level 4:
The Silksworn:
- Has 5 implements. Let's add Illusion to our list
- Has 7 focus powers, we picked up one at 3rd and one from our implement at 2. Let's pick Sudden Size from Transmutation.
- Knows 5 1st level spells and 5 x 2nd level spells
- Can, on a day to day basis, reallocate focus to garner entirely different sets of powers to use
The Base:
- Has 3 implements. Let's add Divination to our list
- Has 5 focus powers, we picked up one at 3rd and one from our implement at 2. Let's pick Sudden Size from Transmutation.
- Knows 3 1st level spells and 3 x 2nd level spells
- Can, on a day to day basis, partially reallocate focus to garner some different sets of powers to use
- Can use breastplate +1 and heavy shield+1 for +10 AC
Verdict, The focus powers usable on a normal day are still the same. SS does know 2 more spells to choose from, but the base's lists are still good. Also the base has available +10 AC over the SS, meaning we're keeping our AC on line with a front liner, no need to stress about positioning or getting caught out.
At level 6:
The Silksworn:
- Has 6 implements. Let's add Conjuration to our list
- Has 9 focus powers, we picked up one at 5th and one from our implement at 6. Let's pick Energy Blast from Evocation.
- Knows 6 x 1st level & 6 x 2nd level spells
The Base:
- Has 4 implements. Let's add conjuration to our list
- Has 7 focus powers, we picked up one at 5th and one from our implement at 6. Let's pick Energy Blast from Evocation.
- Knows 3 1st level spells and 3 x 2nd level spells
- Can use breastplate +2 and heavy shield+2 for +12 AC
Verdict, The focus powers usable on a normal day are still the same. SS does know 2 more spells to choose from, but the base's lists are still good. Also the base has available +12 AC over the SS, meaning we're keeping our AC on line with a front liner, no need to stress about positioning or getting caught out. Only advantage of SS is some spells know and greater versatility on a mix it up day. Base is having far more AC.
At level 8:
The Silksworn:
- Has 6 implements still.
- Has 10 focus powers, we picked up one at 7th. Let's pick Side Step
- Knows 6 x 1st level & 6 x 2nd level spells & 6 x 3rd level spells
- Can cast 7 x 1st & 6 x 2nd & 4 x 3rd level spells a day thanks to Devoted Mystic
- Is probably now getting +3-5 bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy over the base
The Base:
- Has 4 implements. still
- Has 8 focus powers, we picked up one at 7th. Let's pick Side Step
- Knows 4 x 1st level & 4 x 2nd level spells & 4 x 3rd level spells
- Can cast 6 x 1st & 5 x 2nd & 3 x 3rd level spells a day
- Can use breastplate +2 and heavy shield+2 for +12 AC
Verdict, finally the SS pulls ahead on something getting 1 more spell per level per day and the bonus to skills. But the base still has enough spells and focus power spells to last all the fights that PFS will throw in a day. We're going to be nice and say the AC didn't increase this tier. The base is taking a hit cause it has useless abilities for PFS that the SS were able to trade for something useful.
At level 10:
The Silksworn:
- Has 7 implements now. Let's pick up Necromancy for fun
- Has 12 focus powers, we picked up one at 9th and one from the new implement at 10. Let's pick Shadow Beasts
- Knows 7 x 1st level & 7 x 2nd level spells & 7 x 3rd level spells & 7 x 4th level spells
- Can cast 8 x 1st & 6 x 2nd & 5 x 3rd & 3 x 4th level spells a day thanks to Devoted Mystic
- Is probably now getting +4-6 bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy over the base
The Base:
- Has 5 implements now. Let's pick up illusion
- Has 10 focus powers, we picked up one at 9th and one from the new implement at 10. Let's pick Shadow Beasts
- Knows 5 x 1st level & 5 x 2nd level spells & 5 x 3rd level spells & 5 x 4th level spells
- Can cast 7 x 1st & 5 x 2nd & 4 x 3rd & 2 x 4th level spells a day
- Can use breastplate +3 and heavy shield+3 for +14 AC
Verdict, well not much has changed, still only 1 spell per level per day extra, but base still has plenty of spells per day given focus powers that mimic spells and PFS workdays. The bases AC increased
TLDR: A class is more than the sum of it's spells per day. It's disingenuous to look at these two in the realm of most PFS play (levels 1 to 12) and say that the Silksworn has some extreme advantages over the base. The SS will be stronger post 8, as a caster having more spell slots and more versatile via some more spells known... but below that it isn't as black and white as you want to hand wave it. I concede that the SS is a bit more versatile, but when it comes to dealing with the range of things you might encounter in a scenario the base has sufficient options available, plus the base is able to far more survivable, getting a much higher AC.
TLDR the TLDR: SS is a better caster than the base, no duh, but the difference isn't huge, the base still has lots of good spells and powers to do, and can still change up his role a good amount via his unused implements. The issue is that if it wasn't a better spellcaster then it wouldn't be a useful archetype, but most of the bonus the SS has over the arcanist the base has as well. The base is still getting lots more of it's highest level spells known than the arcanist.
So the only conclusion for SS being banned cause it's a better caster is that the base occultist is such a good caster as to be pushing the legality limits, thus any increase in that category must be banned.
Also, when comparing to an arcanist, having the freedom of picking 2 or more spells of the same school for your day is something that the occultist cannot due via this example, and there are complete schools that we can't access with the arcanist can pick up one of those schools spells no problem. Personally I don't think the HP or bab difference of the classes is that big a deal, they both are going to be in the back and hope to not be hit, nor are they making all that many attacks. The SS has a +1 to +3 on accuracy, with +3 only being the last level. So touch attacks that both are slinging are both very comparable to be hitting.
Now the good fort save and more skill points and eventual bonus to skills are definitely a plus for SS over arcanist.
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Wait the season where Damage Reduction comes up every other scenario and in 1-5's is when you want to make that claim?
To me, DR adamantine hasn't shown up all that often. It on Golems and stoneskin and earth kineticists and I'm not sure what else reliably has DR adamntine. So yes you'll bypass it and I wont, but this comes into play maybe once in a character's career? And the bard can just buy an adamantine weapon (for some reason it's super popular in my local lodge cause a few people love adamantine and so even shardra like shamans have adamantine weapons)
I don't know which season you're talking about that has lots of DR adamantine showing up. and level's 1-5 the occultist isn't bypassing that yet either anyways. It's possible that I just haven't hit the right scenarios, but my experience has been as I've said. infrequent DR adamantine and no huge DR values early