I'll start by saying obviously obviously Rai is you shouldn't be considered "wielding" more than two weapons. Maybe there are some fringe cases but let's not make a stink. This isn't the rules forum. I would never do this in a real game.
That being said
A hypothetical fighter at level 5 takes master craftsmen (weaponsmith). From than on, for 4000 dollars each he has
2 gauntlets, 2 boot blades, 2 thorn bracers, 2 tekko kagi, 1 berbazu beard, 1 armor spikes
Let's call that 10 "feat slots" for 40,000 dollars or 20 for 90,000
He can't take any feats that he wants to use as a prerequisite for another feat.
Feel free to add some other enchantments
I'll get the ball rolling with
+1 dueling improved initiative barroom brawler gauntlets. That's an extra 14,000 but eh, it's a good combo. Add +1 armor mastery: sprightly armor armor spikes to compete with the diviner wizard for first.
In his other hand how about that +1 cornugeon smash, hurtful gauntlet.
What combat feats should the fighter make? Would he want it as a sword and board, two handed, two weapon, fencing, reach or just any fighter? What level is he? What prerequisites would he need in his regular feats? Maybe he's got the martial master so he can pick up prerequisites on the fly?
With the warrior spirit advanced weapon training you could even pop training on to your main weapon 1+weapon training bonus times per day.
Two things I'm considering are feats at the end of a feat tree are good options, and also a ton of feats come online at level 11, so you don't have to wait till level 12 to get, for example, greater two weapon fighting and two weapon rend.
(Since no one's ever going to do this without being laughed off the table let's assume you can stack it like bane, at least for the purposes of this post)
Oh oh bonus points, if you take a teamwork feat you can just toss your buddy a spiked gauntlet with the same feat on it.
A wizard at level 20 can cast around 60 spells (taking into into account)
Obviously we hard working warriors should be able to cast at least sixty feats
This particular Weapon Special Ability (Training) does not function on weapons that cannot be drawn or are not held in a hand. "... as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand." is the actual wording.
Pfft just use Quick Sheathe + Quick draw. Free action to get a combat feat of your choice. :P
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Pfft just use Quick Sheathe + Quick draw. Free action to get a combat feat of your choice. :P
Or, if you don't want to shell out for a weapon covering each possible feat, just use one of the various abilities (e.g. Legacy Weapon) which allow you to temporarily add magic weapon special abilities... to add Training for the desired feat.
This particular Weapon Special Ability (Training) does not function on weapons that cannot be drawn or are not held in a hand. "... as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand." is the actual wording.
I think this is an argument that will probably resurface the 'handedness' debate all over again. Given that handedness has been clarified, and you HAVE drawn (they are always drawn) and ARE wielding caestus/spiked gauntlets+armour spikes (otherwise how do you threaten with them? Are they suddenly incapable of threatening?), you do gain the benefits of their enhancements. Barring Defending since that has specific language on how you gain it's benefits, which Training does not share. Speaking of which.
If you never drew the weapon to begin with, do you benefit from Training? Do you need to sheathe and redraw a weapon every time you wish to use it? Are sword saint samurai the only class that benefits from this enhancement?
Pfft just use Quick Sheathe + Quick draw. Free action to get a combat feat of your choice. :POr, if you don't want to shell out for a weapon covering each possible feat, just use one of the various abilities (e.g. Legacy Weapon) which allow you to temporarily add magic weapon special abilities... to add Training for the desired feat.
Or Warrior Spirit for all those fighters/Iron Casters out there. I do this on the regular with my own Iron Caster+Barroom Brawler to abuse feat chains he otherwise wouldn't have access to through prebuffing.
Wielding is not mentioned. "Drawn and in hand" is it. So no Boulder Helmets, Boot-Blades, Armor Spikes, etc.
There was a FAQ request thread, but it doesn't seem to be getting any more hits.
I wonder what someone would say to weilding 2 taiaha; a one-handed exotic double weapon. That 4 feat, 2 weapons.
I always thought it was a typo, but haven't heard anything about it yet.
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Wielding is not mentioned. "Drawn and in hand" is it. So no Boulder Helmets, Boot-Blades, Armor Spikes, etc.
There was a FAQ request thread, but it doesn't seem to be getting any more hits.
But we have NO idea if that's a hand [physical] or hand[effort]. ;P
Then we can look at weapon types:
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively.
The rules assume weapons are held in hands by default just like it assumes characters have two arms and legs. When things don't conform, it leads to unexpected results. "Drawn and in hand" for a normal weapon means 'wielded and able to make AoO' so I'd expect the same to be true for other weapons. "Drawn and in hand" seems more a prohibition on it working for sheathed weapons and less on weapons with non-standard hand use.
If we look at the rules without the any context, weapons like the boulder helmet and armor spikes would require you physically put a hand on then to use and we know that's not hot they work. In much the same way, you don't need to put your hand on them for training to work IMO.
I'd argue for hands of effort, mostly because:
Blade Boot
Blade Boot
Armor Spikes
Spiked Gauntlet
Spiked Gauntlet
Weapon (Primary)
Weapon (Off Hand)
Cestus 1
Cestus 2
Boulder Helm
Barbazu Beard
Thats a lot of feats.
I run it as "if it's in your hand *and* you can make an AoO with it, then it counts, else it does not." So you can put it on your longspear and your gauntlet, or your longssword and your heavy shield, but not your sword, shield, and gauntlet (since you can't make an AoO with a gauntlet if you're holding something.)
I feel like "in hand" should rule out boots and helmets. This might not be RAW but it feels like a reasonable compromise.
I'd argue for hands of effort, mostly because:
Blade Boot
Blade Boot
Armor Spikes
Spiked Gauntlet
Spiked Gauntlet
Weapon (Primary)
Weapon (Off Hand)
Cestus 1
Cestus 2
Boulder Helm
Barbazu BeardThats a lot of feats.
Cross off Spiked Gauntlets and cestus'. They can't threaten/attack if you are using the hand for normal weapons. Secondly, for the blade boots you have to have them out so "you treat normal terrain as difficult and difficult terrain as impassable.": so unlikely you'll use those. SO we'd be left with 5:
Armor Spikes
Weapon (Primary)
Weapon (Off Hand)
Boulder Helm
Barbazu Beard
While not directly on point, the Defending FAQ gives an idea on what the intent is going to be if a FAQ comes out. The design team came down pretty hard on people trying to minmax weapon enchantments there, I doubt it would be any different with Training. Don't expect to be able to benefit from more than two Training enchantments at a time.
Most likely, but I wish they wouldn't use that kind of wield anymore. It would make a VAST majority of feats worthless. Weapon finesse? You get it after you attack. Power attack? after you attack. Weapon proficiencies? Yep, AFTER you attack. Improved Initiative? Yep, after you've rolled it you get a +4...
If they wish to limit it, for the love of whatever deity they worship, please JUST list a number limit [only x Training weapons will work per person] and don't try to add it to the defending mess of wielding.
I run it as "if it's in your hand *and* you can make an AoO with it, then it counts, else it does not." So you can put it on your longspear and your gauntlet, or your longssword and your heavy shield, but not your sword, shield, and gauntlet (since you can't make an AoO with a gauntlet if you're holding something.)
I feel like "in hand" should rule out boots and helmets. This might not be RAW but it feels like a reasonable compromise.
I'd rather see a limit myself. It works for rings so why not just say '2 max' and not make it complicated? That said, I don't think it'd be an issue too allow weapons you can AoO with as that practical limit is 5.
My question on this enchant is this: Is Training counted as a single enchant or is it a series of individual enchants of Training [feat]. To explain, is Training [run] the same enchant as training [Improved Initiative]? For instance could both be taken on one weapon. It's a similar question to 'can I stack Protection from Energy [fire] and Protection from Energy [cold]: are they the same spell or different?'.
I've seen Blade...Wait, what happened to Featherstep Slippers? I swore they lasted longer.
Anyway, thanks for the clarification Graystone. I'm personally going with "Only 2 weapons max" in order to stop cheese, but the AoO definition is also well thought.
In regards to the Training enchantment, I'd normally say limit it to one per weapon. It is the definition that makes sense to me, but if someone wants to burn cash on Feats then I'd think its honestly Ok. Someone else pointed out in a similar thread that Ioun stones that grant feats are much cheaper than adding another + to a weapon. At least after the second enchantment.
So if someone wants to burn 100k on a few extra feats then I'm fine with it. The feat requires that the character meet the pre-requisites, so its no different from custom magic items except that these are taking away potential power from the Player's weapons.
Plus, these will make neat loot.
I feel like if we want to have "trade gold for feats" to be a thing (which isn't a totally unreasonable idea), it'd probably be better to do with an ioun stone or a manual than having to worry about hands and wielding.
The "Training" enhancement seems to exist largely so a GM can put a neat exotic weapon that grants the proficiency to use it in a loot pile. The "doesn't count for prereqs" seems intended to keep you close to the "this teaches you to use a bastard sword in one hand" end of the pool rather than the "this gets me greater vital strike" end of the pool.
I feel like if we want to have "trade gold for feats" to be a thing (which isn't a totally unreasonable idea), it'd probably be better to do with an ioun stone or a manual than having to worry about hands and wielding.
The "Training" enhancement seems to exist largely so a GM can put a neat exotic weapon that grants the proficiency to use it in a loot pile. The "doesn't count for prereqs" seems intended to keep you close to the "this teaches you to use a bastard sword in one hand" end of the pool rather than the "this gets me greater vital strike" end of the pool.
But to me "can't be used as a prereq" sounds way more like, this if good for feats that are not prereqs for things you want
if it was "the feat can't have other feats as prereqs" than I'd say you're right. If proficiency was one of your enchantments than everything on your sword would be priced +1 tier higher than it should be. People generally wan't a main weapon and the system rewards that kind of thinking with things like god's favoured weapon, weapon focus and everything that uses that as a prereq, fighter weapon groups.
The "Training" enhancement seems to exist largely so a GM can put a neat exotic weapon that grants the proficiency to use it in a loot pile.
That was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw it: Any funky exotic weapon could be added for just a +1. After thinking for a bit, there are a lot of fifty uses. A shield that grants toughness. A Iron brush with Cunning. A shield enchanted as a weapon could be enchanted with shield proficiency. Armor spikes could be enchanted with armor proficiency.
People generally wan't a main weapon and the system rewards that kind of thinking with things like god's favoured weapon, weapon focus and everything that uses that as a prereq, fighter weapon groups.
Let me give you an example. Take an unchained rogue. At 11th level and 19th level they gain an additional weapon they can use with their finesse training. Finding a training weapons with an exotic proficiency like an elven curved blade, elven branched spear, dwarven boulder helmet, ect. can make a fine choice for the extra's without having to spend a feat.
A shield that grants toughness.
Price +1 bonus; CL 3rd; Aura faint transmutation
DESCRIPTION
Popular among those who seek to impersonate skilled warriors, a training weapon grants one combat feat to the wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand. The feat is chosen when this special ability is placed on the weapon. That feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for any other feats and functions for the wielder only if she meets its prerequisites. Once chosen, the feat stored in the weapon cannot be changed.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost +1 bonus Craft Magic Arms and Armor; Spells magic weapon; Special creator must have the chosen combat feat and its prerequisites.
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Toughness is not a combat feat and can not be gained by training WSA.
A shield that grants toughness.** spoiler omitted **
.............................................................
Toughness is not a combat feat and can not be gained by training WSA.
My bad, I forgot it said combat feat. That's a bummer.
I feel like a thread about "let's abuse the training weapon feature!" is naturally going to draw the attention of people who are uneasy about the training weapon feature because it might well be easily abusable.
Funny how the OP stated specifically that he was not interested in a rules debate, hence not posting this in a rules forum, yet the first post from someone other than the OP was one arguing a rules position....Yeah, funny how that works. Saying "I don't want anyone disagreeing with me" doesn't magically inoculate you from criticism if people think you said something wrong.
I didn't say I don't want anyone disagreeing with me. In fact no one has disagreed with me. I stated how rediculous it would be to try and get more than two, and that's what people latched on to talking about. I guess at least people googling to find these answeres might find this thread.
And thank you Saldiven for pointing that out so that I didn't have to haha.
Hmm if we he's got dirty fighting, and a bunch of clubs hanging from his wrist with weapon cords. He could drop the one he's holding as a free actio and flip one into his hand as a move action. He could put an improved combat feat on each one. Upgrade it to grater if he ever grabs the improved version of one.
Hmm if we he's got dirty fighting, and a bunch of clubs hanging from his wrist with weapon cords. He could drop the one he's holding as a free actio and flip one into his hand as a move action. He could put an improved combat feat on each one. Upgrade it to grater if he ever grabs the improved version of one.
Just be a Kasathas alchemist/Spiritualist[Ectoplasmatist] with 2 vestigial arms, a Tentacle, two Ectoplasmic Lashes and casting Phantom Limb. 11 hands to hold 11 taiahas for 22 training feats...
I'd like to mention that Critical feats are great for these, since you can key them to specific weapons. So if you need your Mace to have something for undead but your sword to work better on the living you can have the right critical for the job.
Seems neat.
After doing all this, I bet he looks like this guy.
/cevah
However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 1 hit point).
You can't hang multiple weapons from cords. It doesn't work.
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Good for guns if you have the Gun Twirling feat. Sure, it takes a few feats to get there, but now you can dual-wield guns and gain combat feats on demand.
Really though, I think my favourite idea here is the Occultist's Legacy Weapon thingy. Have an Occultist Cohort while being yourself a Brawler, and suddenly you can get several combat feats as required to suit your foe!
Wait... is this how Batman does it? This is definitely how Batman does it.
If you allow the enchantments to count as different and thus stack, then it's even better. You could take that bow you found as a Transmutation Implement, then use the powers it grants you to grant it the power to grant you a bunch of bow feats. This would work with any weapon, so you can stop worrying about specialising and just take basic combat-y feats, specialising with every weapon you pick up. I think I just made all the Fighters in the audience cry.
Also good for Eldritch Guardians, I guess.
I've been thinking of a few fun possibilities.
A +X, Training (Cleave), Mighty Cleaving Weapon.
A +X, Training (Enforcer), Merciful Weapon.
A +X, Training (Combat Reflexes), Fortuitous Weapon.