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My party needs a healer and I was thinking of rolling up a reach shaman (using a longspear to fill a secondary melee role and taking advantage of AoO action economy). However I noticed that despite Shamans being primarily Wis-based they have quite a few abilities that are Charisma-based, including uses per day of their base spirit ability and uses, duration, or potency of many of their spirit specific hexes (most notably the one that lets you grab a number of spells from the sorc/wiz list equal to your Cha modifier).
Since I'm not keen on the idea of dumping Int, this means I can (1) dump Cha and miss out on some of the spirit benefits (2) dump Str and give up on the longspear (3) choose a different and less MAD class, probably oracle.
The Shaman Guide advises against dumping Cha, but I'd like to hear some other opinions. In particular, I'm not sure if it's reasonable to expect even a secondary melee role, as the shaman seems to lack most of the cleric's personal buffs.
I am strongly leaning towards Ancestors as my main spirit.
Food for thought:
What exactly are you trying to do to fill the "healer" roll for your party?
And how does an Ancestor's shaman do that?
Shamans can get the cleric buffs back via an alternate racial favored class bonus. I've heard that a battle spirit shaman can be a respectable fighter, and I've seen a strength-dumping wind spirit shaman be fairly effective with a metamagiced flame blade - with arcane enlightenment but without being a race which could get the cleric buffs.
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Pirate Rob - Having access to healing spells or effects. At absolute minimum we need someone who can cast CLW at level 1. We have an alchemist who can help with both HP and condition removal, but not until he gets the infusion discovery.
I play a lot of healers so I'm looking for something new. EDIT: definitely not an inquisitor, bard, alchemist, or occultist, preferably not a druid or cleric. Familiar and ability to fill a teacher/scribe/historian role a plus.
avr - I'd prefer to play a dwarf or dwarf-blooded aasimar for thematic reasons, though I'd admit grabbing a half-elf with that FCB and an elven branched spear would solve most of my mechanical concerns.
Misfortune (Su) (Advanced Class Guide pg. 37 (Amazon)): The shaman causes a creature within 30 feet to suffer grave misfortune for 1 round. Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result. A successful Will saving throw negates this hex. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. This hex affects all rolls the target must make while it lasts. Whether or not the save is successful, the creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 24 hours.
Chant (Su) (Advanced Class Guide pg. 36 (Amazon)): A shaman can chant as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of the shaman’s charm, evil eye, fortune, fury, or misfortune hex has that effect’s duration extended by 1 round. A shaman cannot select both this hex and the witch’s cackle hex.
Those 2 thing alone will make any shaman annoying as hell and with your friends don't getting hit you wont's need that much healing...
If your Party can Survive until level 4, is better to take Healing Spirit as a Wandering Spirit at level 4 and choose a more useful spirit at the beginning.
The Shaman does get lots of the important conditional removal spells, including lesser restoration.
No ability to spontaneously cast so I suspect you'll need a lot of consumables (cheap scrolls) to help you fulfill your goals. Also goes along with your scholarly goals.
Not at all the shaman you're making but here is the character sheet for my level 7 flame/lore shaman (super MAD, needing Wisdom, Int and Cha)
If you want the ancestors spirit for thematic reasons but you'd like the battle spirit for the combat buffs, one way to combine them is to take the Speaker for the Past archetype. The archetype covers the ancestors spirit (& more) while still allowing you to have the battle spirit. It does lose the spirit animal/familiar though.
If you're just after a different sort of healer, some options you didn't name are a witch, a psychic with the faith discipline, a Magaambyan Initiate arcanist, an Arcane Physician wizard, a Cabalist or Zealot vigilante... I'm sure there's more but that's enough to consider. Any of those can get CLW at first level, most can get a familiar, and the teacher/scribe/historian role is no more than a few knowledge skills.
The core design of the class almost assumes that everyone will take Arcane Enlightenment....and therein lies the challenge!
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It all depends on the build. But I advise against it especially on Battle Shamans and Arcane Enlightenment Shamans. You want as many Bane as possible for mid-high level battle shaman and as many spells as possible for the Arcane Enlightenment Shaman.
I have 3 Shamans none have dumped Cha.
Battle - 10-12 CHA is nice. You will likely get a multi stat head band on this build because its not concerned with DCs
Battle Dex - I have an UAS Dex monk Speaker for the Past hex striker. It works well though you're just a debuff shaman until you get an agile amulet of might fist. But it allows the stats to go far.
10-12 CHA is nice for the same reasons as before.
Heavens Shaman Arcane Enlightenment Wandering spirit - 14 Int 18 Wis 14 Cha. This involved dumping strength which I don't love. I suggest a protector familiar as your con is only 12 (14 with a dwarf).
14 Cha gives you a nice base. Ioun stone will increase that in the future. It is a pretty expensive build with respect to gear but you only realistically need rods and mental stat items.
It is really hard to make a melee shaman with good DCs. If you do you will be leaning on spells and hex to bolster your combat ability. The dex build was the way I made it work but it has compromises. One level dip in Unmonk, 3 levels of gm credit before playing (though not needed), using Hex Strike and soothsayer for action economy. This does not leave much room in the build. But your dcs are good the AC is stacked and with the right spells damage is good as well.
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Pirate Rob - I've played a druid as the party healer, so I'm not too worried about missing spontaneous healing options.
avr - Thanks for the suggestions. I was looking at Speaker for the Past, and will check out the Cabalist and Magaambyan Initiate.
I'm not a fan of point-buy as it too often becomes a battle between flavor and optimization. And it favors SAD over MAD.
I have rolled scores, actually. I rolled a 9, so I need to dump something - at absolute best I could put the 9 somewhere it would get a racial +2 and end up with an 11. (Which is probably what I'd to if I went for the aasimar oracle - 11 Wis.)
Specifically, my array is 15, 15, 14, 13, 13, 9.
Red Griffyn - Very interesting build, but because I have rolled stats if I give up on the secondary melee role I can just dump Str, play an aasimar, and end up with something like 9/14/15/13/17/15 or 9/13/14/13/17/17 if I really want to push mental stats.
Grandlounge - I don't necessarily need good DCs if I use my magic for buffing, healing, and utility. I suppose I could go aasimar with 15/14/15/13/15/11, or even 17/14/15/13/13/11 if I take Angelkin. But I've had some issues before keeping MAD battle-casters stats' topped off, and I'm not keen on the idea of having to boost two mental stats in addition to my physical ones.
With that said, an Ancestors Shaman doesn't really have much that depends on Charisma.
The wandering spirit/hex would be the main reason to not dump charisma: extra uses of channel if I take Life as my wandering spirit, or extra sorc/wiz spells if I take Lore and Arcane Enlightenment.
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If you take Scion of Humanity and use the human favored class bonus that will help you fill out the spell list. Most obvious would be divine favor with the fates favored trait. At higher levels you can quicken this, maybe additional traits Magical Lineage. First round quicken divine favor, second round bane. I think you should be fine for keeping up with full bab classes.
Your second set of stats should work for this build.
You might also take a look at race options that give you a bonus to both Wis and Cha simultaneously, such as a human with Dual Talent, a half-elf with Kindred-Raised, or, if you have access to them, an Aasimar or Changling.
Aasimar's can't get +2 to wis and cha only int and cha.
A standard Aasimar does indeed get +2 to Wis and Cha. There is one sub-race that gets +2 to Int and Cha.
I am strongly leaning towards Ancestors as my main spirit.
Shaman is a really fun healer class because you get hexes, which are mostly unlimited use per day, which means you always have something to do even if you do dump strength.
I have played a few shamans, and while they don't measure up to the healing potential of an Oracle of Life, that Wandering Life Spirit lets you pick up Channeling and other Oracle of Life stuff effectively for free.
For Shamans, I usually put my two highest stats into Wis and Cha for saves, abilities, and because I like playing charismatic characters in general. The "9/13/14/13/17/17" spread you mentioned above is basically my go-to Shaman spread.
Then, pick up the Misfortune hex (as was suggested above) and debuff instead of bothering with weapon attacks. That one is almost universally useful, so it never feels like you're wasting your time. If you like debuffing, as my Shaman of Calistria did, there even more hexes that can let you do interesting battle debuffs.
Either way, high Charisma gives you more channels when you get the Wandering Life Hex. Add selective channel and extra channel to your feat selections and you can make that even better - particularly since Chanting (as noted above) is a move action, so you can chant to keep your Debuffs up while Selective Channeling to cure your party, effectively doubling your action economy.
If you can't tell, I enjoy playing healers, so I know a lot of tricks to make them more engaging.
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Yes, I am strongly considering aasimar.
However this is a dwarf-themed game so I would really rather play a dwarf-blooded aasimar (using a homebrew scion-of-dwarfinity trait) rather than a human-blooded aasimar, even though that would mean losing access to the cleric spells FCB. If it is not possible to be decent in melee as a shaman without cleric spells, I might be better off with a different build. (If I don't play a dwarf-blooded character, the Adopted trait is mandatory.)
Zelgadas Greyward - Yeah, most of my characters have at least some healing capability. I rarely play characters who can't use a weapon, though.
Yeah, most of my characters have at least some healing capability. I rarely play characters who can't use a weapon, though.
See, I'm just the opposite. If I'm not playing a primary melee character like Magus or Paladin, I usually dump strength and avoid melee. Bow healers, hex healers, and spell healers are my preferred method.
I'm currently playing a LN Oracle of Zon Kuthon with the Shadow Mystery. She's good at healing (with just the sheer number of spells she gets) and also has access to both Flamestrike and Shadow Evocation (thanks to Shadow Mystery) turning her into a blaster who can target Ref or Will based on a given encounter.
She's also got a ranged weapon and enough Dex to hit, particularly if she takes the time to buff herself.
Her strength is abysmal and she is would be terrible in melee if anything ever closed on her, but our resident Vigilante Zealot with a Falchard keeps her mostly safe from that.
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I've found that most CHA/day Spirit abilities aren't really amazing. They're a nice bonus, but I always have more important things to do. Okay, it's important if you want to Channel Energy for extra heals, but otherwise it's just an extra. With a 9 you can use most abilities 2 times a day, that's perfectly fine, IMHO.
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If you want a character with healing potential, but who will remain a decent physical combatant, I can vouch for a Shaman with the Speaker for the Past archetype suggested above. It is well-suited to a 'battle shaman' type character.
I am currently playing a Shaman with the Battle spirit and Speaker for the Past, using reach tactics in combat to be a capable frontliner, spells for buffing, utility and status condition removal (and other fun stuff), and then rounding things out with hexes and revelations. Certainly not a 'primary' healer, but has been primarily responsible for status condition removal, and can use a wand of CLW. Gets access to Restoration spells, Breath of Life, Raise Dead/etc, and Heal.
Easily the most versatile character I have ever played -- now at 13th level in ROTR. You do lose the versatility of Wandering Hex and access to Arcane Enlightenment, but for a character with melee ambitions rather than a desire to be a primary caster, Speaker for the Past more than makes up for it (check out those Time and Ancestor revelations).
The nice thing for you is that Speaker for the Past works well from a flavour standpoint with the ancestor-focus, and you can use the Battle Spirit to help with combat ability. For a reach build, there is a hex which grants an extra AOO that stacks with Combat Reflexes (amongst other things).
Charisma is not essential with this build at all, though you may want to at least get it up to 10 by Level 8, to ensure you get a decent number of uses of the Bane ability from Battle spirit at that level. You can therefore drop the 9 into CHA, and just bump it to 10 via leveling which you hit 8th.
With your rolls and stated preference not to drop INT (I'd normally suggest putting the 9 there and using the Human Skilled racial trait to make up for it), I'd suggest a stat allocation as follows before racial adjustments:
STR 15
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 13
WIS 15
CHA 9
Then you can bump STR at 4th, CHA at 8th and CON at 12th. Alternatively, if you felt you need the extra HP and Fortitude save over AC, Reflex, Initiative and an extra AOO with Combat Reflexes, you could swap CON and DEX.
And that's why I'm not a fan of rolling, either.I'm not a fan of point-buy as it too often becomes a battle between flavor and optimization. And it favors SAD over MAD.I have rolled scores, actually. I rolled a 9, so I need to dump something
LOL; Not a fan of point buy or rolling for stats. Is there another way to get stats?
Maybe, just choose what you want. I'll take all 18s. Thanks for playing the game where everyone is a winner.It just hit me as funny.
Great advice from The Steel Refrain, by the way.
And that's why I'm not a fan of rolling, either.I'm not a fan of point-buy as it too often becomes a battle between flavor and optimization. And it favors SAD over MAD.I have rolled scores, actually. I rolled a 9, so I need to dump somethingLOL; Not a fan of point buy or rolling for stats. Is there another way to get stats?
Maybe, just choose what you want. I'll take all 18s. Thanks for playing the game where everyone is a winner.
It just hit me as funny.
There's arrays, but even most predetermined arrays have one or two dump stats. To be fair, this rolled method seems to have worked out pretty well. Nothing amazing, but a 9 as the lowest stat is pretty good, I usually have lower. Two 15s that can become 17 after racial is pretty sweet. Converted back, that's point-buy 24, if I can math correctly. Sure, it's not the exact stat spread I would've chosen, but more balanced than if I'd made a character with point-buy 20.
Consider both the Witch and the Bard. Both are good secondary healers, and CLW is on both lists.
Witches are great debuffers, and have great hexes, but are squishy and need to be close to combat to be effective. They are also full casters, so can be a big help there.
Bards are great at buffing, and are OK at combat. Their 6-level casting is weaker than a full caster, but they do get good spells.
On the other hand, Paladins can use a CLW at level 1 even though they don't get casting till later. Their smite can be great for melee, and without smite are still fairly good melee.
/cevah
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After some talking with the party, it looks like diversified casting including targeted debuffs is going to be more important than melee damage. So I'm going to go with the standard aasimar (dwarf heritage) ancestor shaman, and emphasize Wis and Cha to get the most out of hexes and wandering spirit abilities like channel or Arcane Enlightenment.
I really appreciate the battle shaman advice as I may play one in the future.
Cevah - The bard would be a pretty good fit, but I feel like trying a new class for this game. I also think the witch's squishiness compared to the shaman is going to be a liability in this particular campaign, and I'd like to try wandering spirit over the witch's better hex/debuff selection.
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If you take one level of medium and the feat Legendary Influence, it will allow you to grab feats like selective channel or a particular spell focus, or meta magic feat that helps with your new role. You also get a spirit which may help with other aspects of casting.
It is a trade off. One level of casting but you can get the feats to better support the casting. Or take extra hex to do something different that day.
Nice necro. I have a feeling the original poster has settled on a build some time ago ;)
It's accepted as impolite to post on threads that are old. If the last post was many months or years it's viewed as polite to start a new thread for your questions or comments. Many things can change as new books come out or FAQs are made and a lot of people won't read any posts before the new post and thus don't have the context, and anyone you're addressing has no idea you've posted here. These all help to contribute why the forum policy is new threads and why people will call your post a Necro, they are in shorthand referencing that you broke this forum "guideline"
Use old threads to find info. Use new threads to discuss and ask questions.
The Bladed Brush chain can get you some more attribute versatility.
VMC cleric will get you spontaneous cures, and some domain abilities.