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In my opinion:
- What can be classified as an improvised weapon?
Anything that the GM considers can have a similar match in the weapons table. If there's no similarity then it can't be used as improvised weapon.A pitchfork may be a reasonable trident match; a mud jar may be a reasonable single-use knuckle or armored gauntlet; a wooden chair can become a single-use heavy mace, then one of it's legs can become a sap... but a sheet of paper or loaf of bread doesn't have a reasonable match.
- Do improvised weapons count as weapons for all purposes?
Yes, but mainly for "armed vs unarmed" purposes. A character with an improvided weapon is considered armed. - Do improvised weapons count as weapons for the purposes of spells which must target an individual weapon such as Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon?
Yes. An improvised weapon is still a weapon. - Do improvised weapons count as weapons for class abilities which require a weapon such as Paladin's bond or Magus' spellstrike ability?
Yes. An improvised weapon is still a weapon. - Do improvised weapons count as weapons for purposes of enchanting them as weapons?
Yes. An improvised weapon is still a weapon. - Do improvised weapons count as weapons for purposes of Feats which require a weapon to use such as Arcane Strike?
Yes. An improvised weapon is still a weapon.
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- Do improvised weapons count as weapons for purposes of enchanting them as weapons?
Yes. An improvised weapon is still a weapon.
No. To be enchanted as a weapon, an item must first be a MASTERWORK normal weapon, not simply a masterwork item.
While this alarm clock might be a masterwork mithral alarm clock, that does not make it enchantable as a weapon. It does make it really pretty and makes it keep very good time.
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- Do improvised weapons count as weapons for purposes of enchanting them as weapons?
Yes. An improvised weapon is still a weapon.No. To be enchanted as a weapon, an item must first be a MASTERWORK weapon, not simply a masterwork item.
While this alarm clock might be a masterwork mithral alarm clock, that does not make it enchantable as a weapon.
That makes me wonder, could "Masterwork Transformation" turn an improvised weapon into a masterwork improvised weapon assuming you pay the 300gp for it?
I've seen this argument too many times to count. It makes my Gravedigger sad that there's no official ruling at the moment. Though I've never thought of Masterwork Transformation until now.
Masterwork Transformation is one of the reasons I asked about the spells thing. For instance if Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon work on it and they have the same wording for the targeting as Masterwork Transformation it would stand to reason that Masterwork Transformation should work on them as well, after all if an Item is a weapon for one type of spell (which does not specify a certain type of weapon) then it should be considered a weapon for all spells.
I think the issue I can see coming up would be that most improvised weapons are tools of sorts, so many people against the idea will say that the Masterwork Transformation must be used to upgrade it as a tool.
Sadly still in the realm of GM fiat, I did hit the FAQ praying for something to either make my dreams reality or crush them outright. It's that middle ground that's got me all bothered.
for a good reference look up living grimoire archtype. you can see the wording about how (unlike others who don't have the class abilities) it work and learn from that.
his class ability make his book (which still count as an improvised weapon) a weapon he is considered proficient with (so he can take weapon focus and such) and count as a cold iron light mace (to help decide how things like weapon finesse and dr work with). AND he can enchant it - which mean normally one can't enchant his improvised weapon. that work along side the rule that if you use a magic weapon differently (like a spear as a club so u get to attack close targets) it is considered improvised AND doesn't get any benefit from the magic item power (its a non magical maybe still masterwork improvised weapon. then again a masterwork shield that was not set as a masterwork weapon is not a masterwork weapon. so masterwork stuff used differently probably loose masterwork as well.) .
now if he was to enchant one book. then abandon in and bind an other ,while getting the catch off guard feat, he might still use it as a magical weapon. but not gain his other benefits(like added sacred weapon damage dice or +1 to attack and damage or treat as holy symbol) but he could dual wield both books.
(i had a rogue who took one level in living grimoire so he can dual wiled books for that catch off guard flat foot effect when he disarm a target)
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No. To be enchanted as a weapon, an item must first be a MASTERWORK normal weapon, not simply a masterwork item.
While this alarm clock might be a masterwork mithral alarm clock, that does not make it enchantable as a weapon. It does make it really pretty and makes it keep very good time.
An improvised item is not a weapon. An improvised weapon is still a weapon.
If you pay, let's say, 10gp to make a masterwork pitchfork that grants a +2 circumstance bonus to moving hay, you have a masterwork item. But if you craft a true masterwork "war" pitchfork (not a trident, that could possibly be the closest match, but a pitchfork), paying the 300gp required for a masterwork weapon to a weaponsmith , then (apart from the weaponsmith scratching his head and asking himself why the hell would you want something like that), you'll have a pitchfork with a -3 penalty to attack rolls (+1 masterwork, -4 improvised) against cows, wolves and adventurers stepping on you turnip field.
Same goes for Masterwork Transformation. There's no rule that says that a normal item can only be enhanced as a masterwork item, it only requires the item to have a masterwork equivalent, and a pitchfork can perfectly have a masterwork equivalent. If you chose to magically enhance that pitchfork as a weapon and you do pay the M component cost for enhancing that pitchfork as a weapon (300gp), you'll have your masterwork pitchfork improvised weapon.
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- Do improvised weapons count as weapons for purposes of enchanting them as weapons?
Yes. An improvised weapon is still a weapon.No. To be enchanted as a weapon, an item must first be a MASTERWORK normal weapon, not simply a masterwork item.
While this alarm clock might be a masterwork mithral alarm clock, that does not make it enchantable as a weapon. It does make it really pretty and makes it keep very good time.
Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon
The requirement is that a weapon be masterwork. Masterwork is a statement on item quality, not the purpose for which the item was created.
As an example: a mithral frying pan is masterwork. If used as an improvised weapon it retains the "masterwork" designation, becoming a masterwork improvised weapon.
As such, it may be enchanted.
*Most weapons started out as farm implements that were improvised during times of warfare.
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There is some evidence that a masterwork item is also a masterwork weapon, when used as a weapon.
The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.
Note that it doesn't say the armor or shield doesn't count as a masterwork weapon. Just that it doesn't get the bonus for being such.
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you craft a true masterwork "war" pitchfork
If you do that you have crafted an item with the intention that it be used as a weapon (It may be a hybrid weapon/tool) and is therefor no longer improvised.
you craft a true masterwork "war" pitchforkIf you do that you have crafted an item with the intention that it be used as a weapon (It may be a hybrid weapon/tool) and is therefor no longer improvised.
You cound still craft a normal pitchfork, and "weaponize" only the tip. If would still be used as a pitchforkand not as a trident (for example), and would not we correctly weighted for combat.
Possibly, with training (maybe exotic proficiency, since is something clearly not meant for combat) you could negate the "improvised" part and become a "pitchfork master".
Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weaponThe requirement is that a weapon be masterwork. Masterwork is a statement on item quality, not the purpose for which the item was created.
As an example: a mithral frying pan is masterwork. If used as an improvised weapon it retains the "masterwork" designation, becoming a masterwork improvised weapon.
As such, it may be enchanted.
*Most weapons started out as farm implements that were improvised during times of warfare.
If that's the point, then you should add some penalty on items that cost less than the default weapon masterworking (300gp).
For example, a masterwork Lute costs 100gp (Masterwork Musical Instrument) and may as well be used as a weapon. If you consider that a 100gp item can fully qualify as masterwark, it must have some liability (the most logical one is that it breaks on any successful hit) since the item is not reinforced or built for combat. A masterwork Hammer on a smithy (Tool, masterwork) costs 50gp, so it should have a similar issue somewhere.
For a masterwork item to fully qualify as a masterwork "improvised" weapon, then the masterfork crafting should cost at least 300gp or more.
Contributor
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As far as I can tell, player options that interact with improvised weapons are designed with the assumption that you cannot make improvised mwk or magic weapons unless an effect or ability explicitly allows it (such as the living grimoire archetype).
Of course, GMs should feel free to interpret (or house-rule) how improvised weapons work as they see fit. It may have some unintended effects on game balance, however, because some player options for improvised weapon users have been designed to be more powerful than their normal counterparts, so as to make improvised weapons at least a little more viable. For example, the surprise weapon trait gives you a +2 trait bonus on attack rolls, while Weapon Focus gives you a +1 bonus on attack rolls. A trait should be equal to half a feat, but this trait is worth 2 feats. Yes, you need to gain an ability that negates the -4 nonproficiency penalty, but even if you spend a second trait to do that, you're still getting a +2 bonus for the price of a feat.
Being able to create improvised magic weapons would probably also make some existing (and future) player options redundant.
As far as I can tell, player options that interact with improvised weapons are designed with the assumption that you cannot make improvised mwk or magic weapons unless an effect or ability explicitly allows it (such as the living grimoire archetype).
Items made from certain special materials are always masterwork, e.g. a mithral frying pan or admantine crowbar.
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As far as I can tell, player options that interact with improvised weapons are designed with the assumption that you cannot make improvised mwk or magic weapons unless an effect or ability explicitly allows it (such as the living grimoire archetype).Items made from certain special materials are always masterwork, e.g. a mithral frying pan or admantine crowbar.
Masterwork items, yes. Not Masterwork weapons.
Just because that frying pan is non-stick doesn't mean it improves your combat effectiveness with it.
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As far as I can tell, player options that interact with improvised weapons are designed with the assumption that you cannot make improvised mwk or magic weapons unless an effect or ability explicitly allows it (such as the living grimoire archetype).Items made from certain special materials are always masterwork, e.g. a mithral frying pan or admantine crowbar.Masterwork items, yes. Not Masterwork weapons.
Just because that frying pan is non-stick doesn't mean it improves your combat effectiveness with it.
The item is masterwork and it is being treated as a weapon.
Those are the only two requirements for enchantment as a weapon.
If you plan on arguing intent, that is clearly in the realm of the person creating the item.
To step back from frying pans, lets look at the scythe. It is a farming implement used in the harvesting of grain. One particular farmer puts extra effort into making a particularly well made scythe (masterwork) because he really wants to win the annual competition at the harvest festival. His son, the wizard, comes home from studying at the academy and decides to add a little extra kick.
Are you going to allow a farming implement, designed, built and used for the harvesting of grain, to be eligible for enchantment, becoming a +1 scythe? Why or why not?
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.... I don't think that's how it works.
But can you prove, using publish RAW, that it does not.
Most of the items we consider weapons started out as something else, only being used as a weapon when items designed specifically for combat were unavailable. Farming implements are the most common example, but not all items that were improvised for usage in combat started as agricultural tools.
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As far as I can tell, player options that interact with improvised weapons are designed with the assumption that you cannot make improvised mwk or magic weapons unless an effect or ability explicitly allows it (such as the living grimoire archetype).Items made from certain special materials are always masterwork, e.g. a mithral frying pan or admantine crowbar.
I was talking about rules designed explicitly and specifically for improvised weapons, not inferred or conjectural interactions. This is not an argument for or against allowing improvised magic weapons, just an observation of how people who actually write the game treat improvised weapons when they design rules elements that interact with them.
I realize my observation may be false, but my educated guess is that if there'll be a rules clarification, it'll spell out that an "object not crafted to be a weapon" cannot be a "finely crafted version of a normal weapon".
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.... I don't think that's how it works.But can you prove, using publish RAW, that it does not.
Most of the items we consider weapons started out as something else, only being used as a weapon when items designed specifically for combat were unavailable. Farming implements are the most common example, but not all items that were improvised for usage in combat started as agricultural tools.
Not really, but you can't use RAW to prove it does though either, since no RAW exists in either direction.
Your second sentence if effectively meaningless when it comes to Pathfinder rules though, since in Pathfinder when designating something as a weapon or as an item it makes absolutely no distinction whatsoever with what history a type of item may have had before it was turned into a weapon.
If that's the point, then you should add some penalty on items that cost less than the default weapon masterworking (300gp).
For example, a masterwork Lute costs 100gp (Masterwork Musical Instrument) and may as well be used as a weapon. If you consider that a 100gp item can fully qualify as masterwark, it must have some liability (the most logical one is that it breaks on any successful hit) since the item is not reinforced or built for combat. A masterwork Hammer on a smithy (Tool, masterwork) costs 50gp, so it should have a similar issue somewhere.
For a masterwork item to fully qualify as a masterwork "improvised" weapon, then the masterfork crafting should cost at least 300gp or more.
But what of the masterwork shield? It costs less than 300gp extra and can still be enchanted as a weapon. However, it does not gain the masterwork enhancement bonus to attacks, because that is already going to armor check. The lute shouldn't behave any differently. It gives its enhancement bonus to skill checks, instead of to attack rolls, but it can still be enchanted as a weapon.
.... I don't think that's how it works.But can you prove, using publish RAW, that it does not.
Most of the items we consider weapons started out as something else, only being used as a weapon when items designed specifically for combat were unavailable. Farming implements are the most common example, but not all items that were improvised for usage in combat started as agricultural tools.
Not really, but you can't use RAW to prove it does though either, since no RAW exists in either direction.
Your second sentence if effectively meaningless when it comes to Pathfinder rules though, since in Pathfinder when designating something as a weapon or as an item it makes absolutely no distinction whatsoever with what history a type of item may have had before it was turned into a weapon.
The second I swing a frying pan at someone, it becomes a weapon.
It does not matter what usage/history the item may have had before.
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.... I don't think that's how it works.But can you prove, using publish RAW, that it does not.
Most of the items we consider weapons started out as something else, only being used as a weapon when items designed specifically for combat were unavailable. Farming implements are the most common example, but not all items that were improvised for usage in combat started as agricultural tools.
Not really, but you can't use RAW to prove it does though either, since no RAW exists in either direction.
Your second sentence if effectively meaningless when it comes to Pathfinder rules though, since in Pathfinder when designating something as a weapon or as an item it makes absolutely no distinction whatsoever with what history a type of item may have had before it was turned into a weapon.
The second I swing a frying pan at someone, it becomes a weapon.
It does not matter what usage/history the item may have had before.
I can swing a body at someone as a weapon, that does not make it into the specific "weapon" group of items in Pathfinder nor does it mean I can get the body masterworked.
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But what of the masterwork shield? It costs less than 300gp extra and can still be enchanted as a weapon. However, it does not gain the masterwork enhancement bonus to attacks, because that is already going to armor check. The lute shouldn't behave any differently. It gives its enhancement bonus to skill checks, instead of to attack rolls, but it can still be enchanted as a weapon.
If an item can have several purposes, you aren't limited to make it masterwork for it's primary use only... but if you want to make it masterwork for other... "secondary" uses, then you should pay the MW cost for that use unless there's already some sinergy between both possible uses. I'd say that to have enough sinergy so specific masterwork crafting isn't required, same as you have to match the item to the "nearest" weapon counterpart, you should also be able to "match" that weapon to the item. If you can't then you must specifically "masterwork-weaponize" the item
Two examples:
Can you bang a head with a 50gp violin? Sure, but you'll end with a broken violin
Can you bang a head with a 5000gp "masterwork" Stradivarius? Sure, but you'll end with a broken Stradivarius.
If you want to repeatedly bang heads with a violin, you'll have to use other materials (for example darkwood), or reinforce it in specific ways so it doesn't break on the first hit. You may perfectly do it but you should pay the weapon masterwork cost for that "weaponization", separate from any other masterwork cost the item might have for it's primary use (let's say a +4 to performance checks). The primary and secondary uses are too different to have a "masterwork sinergy", since, if you consider that you can tie the violin as a "sap", there's no way a sap can be converted into a violin to make a performance at a tavern (unless you switch "stringed instument" to "percussion instrument"...)
In another scenario, you might use a blacksmith's hammer for combat (although at a -4 "improvised" weapon attack roll) same as you might be able to use a warhammer for smithing (although at a -4 penalty to craft checks, for example). In the case of a masterwork Warhammer/Smith's hammer, your could consider both uses have enough sinergy so you don't require a special MW craft for each item's secondary purpose. You won't entirely negate the secondary use penalty, but will at least lessen it a little (from -4 to -3 for example). In this case, you sould also be able to enchant the item for the secundary purpose without issues.
But what of the masterwork shield? It costs less than 300gp extra and can still be enchanted as a weapon. However, it does not gain the masterwork enhancement bonus to attacks, because that is already going to armor check. The lute shouldn't behave any differently. It gives its enhancement bonus to skill checks, instead of to attack rolls, but it can still be enchanted as a weapon.If an item can have several purposes, you aren't limited to make it masterwork for it's primary use only... but if you want to make it masterwork for other... "secondary" uses, then you should pay the MW cost for that use unless there's already some sinergy between both possible uses.
But that's not the way the rules work for master work shields, and so we could assume those same rules work for other kinds of improvised weapon. You don't have to masterwork a shield twice to make enchant it as a weapon. And it only costs +150 to make a shield masterwork.
But that's not the way the rules work for master work shields, and so we could assume those same rules work for other kinds of improvised weapon. You don't have to masterwork a shield twice to make enchant it as a weapon. And it only costs +150 to make a shield masterwork.
Shields have their own specific rules. I'd be very wary of attempting to generalize them.
And so another edition of mountains out of molehills begins. Those pesky players always angling for more bonuses.
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And so another edition of mountains out of molehills begins. Those pesky players always angling for more bonuses.
I don't mind when people angle for bonuses on subpar fighting styles. If someone wants to drop large amounts of money to end up with a subpar item, then why not let them have their fun?
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And so another edition of mountains out of molehills begins. Those pesky players always angling for more bonuses.I don't mind when people angle for bonuses on subpar fighting styles. If someone wants to drop large amounts of money to end up with a subpar item, then why not let them have their fun?
Exactly, if someone wants to pay 350 gold for a masterwork broom in order to get +2 to sweeping and -3 on attack rolls without catch off guard (that they've had to spend a feat to gain) that is fine by me. No different from an exotic weapon IMO
Exactly, if someone wants to pay 350 gold for a masterwork broom in order to get +2 to sweeping and -3 on attack rolls without catch off guard (that they've had to spend a feat to gain) that is fine by me. No different from an exotic weapon IMOAnd so another edition of mountains out of molehills begins. Those pesky players always angling for more bonuses.I don't mind when people angle for bonuses on subpar fighting styles. If someone wants to drop large amounts of money to end up with a subpar item, then why not let them have their fun?
Yep best case would be having a profession/craft that could allow the item to be grabbed with the Rough and Ready trait to make it a +2 on attacks with that same item. And there is no grabbing feats like WP Focus with your broom so it ain't getting bad enough to call a molehill even.
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Here is a weapon for you.
[b]Benefit:[b] This combat scabbard has a sharp blade on the outer edge, allowing you to use it as a weapon.
Weapons Chart Entry
(Simple)
One-Handed Melee Weapons Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical Range Weight1 Type2 Special
Combat scabbard 1 gp 1d4 1d6 x2 — 1 lb. B improvised, see text
An improvised weapon, that is specifically listed on the weapon tables.
Here is a weapon for you.
[b]Benefit:[b] This combat scabbard has a sharp blade on the outer edge, allowing you to use it as a weapon.
Weapons Chart Entry
(Simple)
One-Handed Melee Weapons Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical Range Weight1 Type2 Special
Combat scabbard 1 gp 1d4 1d6 x2 — 1 lb. B improvised, see textAn improvised weapon, that is specifically listed on the weapon tables.
Because it is listed as an exception, a regular scabbard has no direct weapon equivalent as they were typically leather, or flexible light weight wood or metal. A size smaller club might be the next closest equivalent.
This is a weapon designed as a weapon, with a non-weapon equivalent. This weapon has a secondary tool purpose of holding another weapon.
I really want this fac'd just to end these threads.
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Here's the issue.
If you make a tool, masterworking to perfection as that tool, it will do it's intended task well, but it's improvised when doing anything else.
Same goes for weapons used as tools, or used as other types of weapons, they'll be improvised when being used to do things other than their intended task. The Longsword slashes, when you hit them with the hilt to deal bludgeoning damage, that's an improvised use.
That said, you could certainly have a weapon, like a club made to look like a chair leg. It may appear as a chair leg, but it's intended function would be that of a weapon (it would count as a club). Likewise, you could have a tool designed to look like a weapon (like a lighter designed to look like a firearm). I wouldn't even put an extra cost here, I'd just say the artisan that masterworked it, just added it as a personal touch.
This gets tricky, especially when you start trying to add spells like shillelagh, and feats like improvised weapon master, to your branch/staff.
Here's the issue.
If you make a tool, masterworking to perfection as that tool, it will do it's intended task well, but it's improvised when doing anything else.
Same goes for weapons used as tools, or used as other types of weapons, they'll be improvised when being used to do things other than their intended task. The Longsword slashes, when you hit them with the hilt to deal bludgeoning damage, that's an improvised use.
That said, you could certainly have a weapon, like a club made to look like a chair leg. It may appear as a chair leg, but it's intended function would be that of a weapon (it would count as a club). Likewise, you could have a tool designed to look like a weapon (like a lighter designed to look like a firearm). I wouldn't even put an extra cost here, I'd just say the artisan that masterworked it, just added it as a personal touch.
Shields say otherwise: they can never be made masterwork as a weapon, only as armor, yet they are weapons and, if masterwork, can receive weapon enchantments .
There is nothing in RAW that says an item must be made masterwork for a specific purpose and does not count as masterwork for any other purpose. That not to say a mithral frying pan is not an improvised weapon, but if used as an improvised weapon a mithral frying pan grants the user a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. A mithral frying pan is masterwork, regardless of the purpose for which it is used.
Shields say otherwise: they can never be made masterwork as a weapon, only as armor, yet they are weapons and, if masterwork, can receive weapon enchantments .
But isn't that because the rules specifically say that shields can be turned into magic weapons? Frying pans don't have that language.
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Shields say otherwise: they can never be made masterwork as a weapon, only as armor, yet they are weapons and, if masterwork, can receive weapon enchantments .
There is nothing in RAW that says an item must be made masterwork for a specific purpose and does not count as masterwork for any other purpose. That not to say a mithral frying pan is not an improvised weapon, but if used as an improvised weapon a mithral frying pan grants the user a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. A mithral frying pan is masterwork, regardless of the purpose for which it is used.
You could make a club designed to look like a shield, if you wanted to. It wouldn't be a shield or an improvised weapon, it would just a club. Most masterwork weapons are designed to look more impressive, but it could be anything, if you really wanted it. There's no in-game value here, just flavor.
As for purposes, yes, a masterwork longsword is masterworked when used as a longsword only. A masterwork set of theives tools is only masterwork when used as theives tools.
Regarding mithril, no a mirthril tool is not able to apply an enhancement bonus to it's use as an improvised weapon. It will still count as mithril (silver) for overcoming DR, but it isn't a magic weapon, even if you get it made of mirthril. So that's a bad example.
A mithril frying pan does not grant any bonuses to hit when used as an improvised weapon. That's why non-weapons are much cheaper to make in mithril.
You could certainly have a mithril heavy mace designed to look like a frying pan. It would be a mithril heavy mace in rules. It would also be unable to function as an actual frying pan (could attempt the improvised tool rules).
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Masterwork Transformation is one of the reasons I asked about the spells thing. For instance if Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon work on it and they have the same wording for the targeting as Masterwork Transformation it would stand to reason that Masterwork Transformation should work on them as well, after all if an Item is a weapon for one type of spell (which does not specify a certain type of weapon) then it should be considered a weapon for all spells.
- Do improvised weapons count as weapons for purposes of enchanting them as weapons?
Yes. An improvised weapon is still a weapon.No. To be enchanted as a weapon, an item must first be a MASTERWORK weapon, not simply a masterwork item.
While this alarm clock might be a masterwork mithral alarm clock, that does not make it enchantable as a weapon.
That makes me wonder, could "Masterwork Transformation" turn an improvised weapon into a masterwork improvised weapon assuming you pay the 300gp for it?
I've seen this argument too many times to count. It makes my Gravedigger sad that there's no official ruling at the moment. Though I've never thought of Masterwork Transformation until now.
You convert a non-masterwork item into its masterwork equivalent.
The masterwork equivalent of something that is not a weapon is still not a weapon.
You can change your chair leg into a masterwork chair leg, but it is a masterwork component for a chair, not a masterwork club.|
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No. To be enchanted as a weapon, an item must first be a MASTERWORK normal weapon, not simply a masterwork item.
While this alarm clock might be a masterwork mithral alarm clock, that does not make it enchantable as a weapon. It does make it really pretty and makes it keep very good time.
An improvised item is not a weapon. An improvised weapon is still a weapon.
If you pay, let's say, 10gp to make a masterwork pitchfork that grants a +2 circumstance bonus to moving hay, you have a masterwork item. But if you craft a true masterwork "war" pitchfork (not a trident, that could possibly be the closest match, but a pitchfork), paying the 300gp required for a masterwork weapon to a weaponsmith , then (apart from the weaponsmith scratching his head and asking himself why the hell would you want something like that), you'll have a pitchfork with a -3 penalty to attack rolls (+1 masterwork, -4 improvised) against cows, wolves and adventurers stepping on you turnip field.
Same goes for Masterwork Transformation. There's no rule that says that a normal item can only be enhanced as a masterwork item, it only requires the item to have a masterwork equivalent, and a pitchfork can perfectly have a masterwork equivalent. If you chose to magically enhance that pitchfork as a weapon and you do pay the M component cost for enhancing that pitchfork as a weapon (300gp), you'll have your masterwork pitchfork improvised weapon.
A improvised weapon is a improvised weapon. Look what is the requirement for enchanting a weapon:
Creating Magic WeaponsTo create a magic weapon, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled. Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon, and the masterwork cost is added to the total cost to determine final market value. Additional magic supplies costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic weapon—half the base price of the item based upon the item's total effective bonus.
Then:
Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat.
So a improvised weapon is defined by the rules as "not a weapon".
- Do improvised weapons count as weapons for purposes of enchanting them as weapons?
Yes. An improvised weapon is still a weapon.No. To be enchanted as a weapon, an item must first be a MASTERWORK normal weapon, not simply a masterwork item.
While this alarm clock might be a masterwork mithral alarm clock, that does not make it enchantable as a weapon. It does make it really pretty and makes it keep very good time.
Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weaponThe requirement is that a weapon be masterwork. Masterwork is a statement on item quality, not the purpose for which the item was created.
As an example: a mithral frying pan is masterwork. If used as an improvised weapon it retains the "masterwork" designation, becoming a masterwork improvised weapon.
As such, it may be enchanted.
*Most weapons started out as farm implements that were improvised during times of warfare.
Not at all, see above and:
Masterwork WeaponsA masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
An improvised weapon is not a normal weapon.
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.... I don't think that's how it works.But can you prove, using publish RAW, that it does not.
Most of the items we consider weapons started out as something else, only being used as a weapon when items designed specifically for combat were unavailable. Farming implements are the most common example, but not all items that were improvised for usage in combat started as agricultural tools.
Cite your published RAW. I have cited the relevant rules and they say that you are wrong.
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A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
You want to read "A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon," as a permission to enhance a shield with weapon enhancements without paying the masterwork weapon cost, but it can be as easily read as "you have to pay the the weapon masterwork cost to build a shield that also act as a masterwork weapon".
BTW; Shield are weapons.
Martial Weapons
Light Melee Weapons
Shield, lightOne-Handed Melee Weapons
Shield, heavyShield, Heavy or Light: You can bash with a shield instead of using it for defense.
Not an improvised weapon, a martial weapon.
So, by the rules, you can make a shield as a masterwork weapon and enhance it as a weapon.
Shields say otherwise: they can never be made masterwork as a weapon, only as armor, yet they are weapons and, if masterwork, can receive weapon enchantments .But isn't that because the rules specifically say that shields can be turned into magic weapons? Frying pans don't have that language.
Improvised weapons are a subset of weapon and there are no rules stating they cannot be enchanted.
.... I don't think that's how it works.But can you prove, using publish RAW, that it does not.
Most of the items we consider weapons started out as something else, only being used as a weapon when items designed specifically for combat were unavailable. Farming implements are the most common example, but not all items that were improvised for usage in combat started as agricultural tools.
Cite your published RAW. I have cited the relevant rules and they say that you are wrong.
I've yet to see anything stating an improvised weapon is not a weapon, that a masterwork improvised weapon does not gain an enhancement bonus, or that a masterwork improvised weapon cannot be enchanted.
That is the crux of my position. An improvised weapon is a weapon. As a weapon, it follows standard rules for masterwork quality.
You demonstrate your position, you would need RAW demonstrating improvised weapons follow a different set of rules than every other weapon in the game in terms of how masterwork is applied and in terms of how magic is applied.
Shields say otherwise: they can never be made masterwork as a weapon, only as armor, yet they are weapons and, if masterwork, can receive weapon enchantments .But isn't that because the rules specifically say that shields can be turned into magic weapons? Frying pans don't have that language.
No, the only restriction with Magic Weapons is that you must have Masterwork Weapons.
If Shields are Weapons, and you make them Masterwork, then you do, in fact, have a Masterwork Weapon. It just doesn't confer an Enhancement Bonus to attack rolls like other Masterwork Weapons.
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Improvised weapon: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.
Masterwork Weapons: A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon.
Something not designed as a weapon most definitely can't be considered a normal weapon. Improvised weapons are given their distinction to separate them from normal weapons. If they were normal weapons, we wouldn't be calling them improvised weapons.
For something to ever be considered a masterwork weapon, it first needs to be designed to be a weapon in the first place.
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For something to ever be considered a masterwork weapon, it first needs to be designed to be a weapon in the first place.
Please give me the exact definition of a normal weapon. Because i read it as a normal weapon is a a weapon that is not masterwork. If magic weapon had the text that said you may enchant a normal weapon to be a plus one weapon, i would read that as, normal is nonmagical. Context matters and to simply say how you read it as being correct is asinine.