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I feel a little better after reading the FAQ, but I'm still don't have a good feeling that LW really has a coherent internal plan, much less specifics they can share.
Granted I still have some very specific Questions and concerns that will need to be addressed before I spend another dime on HL.
-Skeld
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I'm not fond of the buy data sets, which only reside on there servers and then pay a fee to use the sets I bought.
At least with HLC if they go belly up I still have all of the data and updates I had and could use them until I did something that required a license check.
Well that seems pretty conclusive. So where else can I go for a StarFinder character generator? Any suggestions?
@Mine all mine...don't touch Yes I could think of one, PCGen
Home is the vast majority of the places that I game, but I want the option to go to my LGS and play with SFS. That is not possible with the offline mode being no edits. PCGen hurry the f up =)Deal breaker for me. None of these new features are worth this MASSIVE inconvenience. Herolab is now basically only usable in my house.Q: Will there be a fully functional offline option for Hero Lab Online?
A: Not initially. Offline options are being explored, but it will be some time before we can truly focus on working that out. We have to bring you all the rules first!
We have several volunteers and play-testers working on it. Of course we could always use more data volunteers...
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PCGen is off-topic.
-Skeld
I disagree. The topic is Starfinder for Herolab. Many people in the thread dislike how Lone Wolf is handling Starfinder for HeroLab and so the conversation turned to what possible alternatives we have to it. Thus, mentioning PCGen is quite on topic.
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I disagree. The topic is Starfinder for Herolab. Many people in the thread dislike how Lone Wolf is handling Starfinder for HeroLab and so the conversation turned to what possible alternatives we have to it. Thus, mentioning PCGen is quite on topic.PCGen is off-topic.
-Skeld
I'm mostly poking fun at that fact that every time we have a Hero Lab thread, we have posters associated with PCGen pop in to remind us that PCGen still exists. They've even had this happening on LW's own forum.
I should have included a ;) at the end of my comemnt.
;)
-Skeld
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PCGen is off-topic.
-Skeld
I disagree. The topic is Starfinder for Herolab. Many people in the thread dislike how Lone Wolf is handling Starfinder for HeroLab and so the conversation turned to what possible alternatives we have to it. Thus, mentioning PCGen is quite on topic.
I would agree, if he actually had a working product for Starfinder.
Popping into every thread, at every chance to spam an advertisement for a service that doesn't yet exist is just a tad tasteless imnsho.
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PCGen is off-topic.
-Skeld
I disagree. The topic is Starfinder for Herolab. Many people in the thread dislike how Lone Wolf is handling Starfinder for HeroLab and so the conversation turned to what possible alternatives we have to it. Thus, mentioning PCGen is quite on topic.
I would agree, if he actually had a working product for Starfinder.
Popping into every thread, at every chance to spam an advertisement for a service that doesn't yet exist is just a tad tasteless imnsho.
Every thread is a bit of an exaggeration. And considering its a free product, I don't see it as that much of an issue *shrug*
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■ there is a softcover book series for Starfinder (which makes playing catch up with official releases difficult for PCGen)
and
■ assuming it comes out next month and actually works...
and
■ assuming the VTT importer for PCGen characters works...
(LOT of assumptions...especially on the VTT side.)
PCGen might actually be truly viable for the first 12 months of Starfinder and maybe develop a real following. But after a softcover series of books comes out where PCGen is hopelessly trying to play catch up with (relative to HLO)? Not so much. Still, that's then; this is now.
But yes, this is a race right now between two software products that aren't ready for wide beta. So I guess we'll see.
The news about hero-lab for Starfinder just about kills the last shred of desire I had to ever get into the game to any degree.
Thanks, Lone Wolf. I appreciate you helping me to save money and time.
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Starfinder is simple enough you don't need Herolabs.
It is still Pathfindery enough for me that I would want to have the tactical console and ease of reference if I was going to run it. However, I'm not going to. Not because of all this new information, but it is solidly the final nail in a well hammered coffin.
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Starfinder is simple enough you don't need Herolabs.
Today, yes.
Months from now when we have advanced race, class, magic, tech guides, blood of books, alien archives 1, 2, 3, each which contributes more playable races, etc, etc.
Not so much.
I'm skeptical but I'm not out on Herolab just yet. I need more information.
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Starfinder is simple enough you don't need Herolabs.Today, yes.
Months from now when we have advanced race, class, magic, tech guides, blood of books, alien archives 1, 2, 3, each which contributes more playable races, etc, etc.
Not so much.
That's a year or more away from now.
That's pretty much what I'm looking at.
Just not sure I want to give a player who's nickname has been "Pure Evil" for as long as I've known him and who lists "World Domination" as his primary goal in life, not clear if he means in game or real life, my account info...
And yet you let him hold your personal electronics... :D
Most of my concerns are offput by the FAQ, but the extra $2 a month is still annoying. hopefully I can hook it up to paypal instead of handing out my credit card info yet again. Also annoying is the lack of Starfinder support for HL Classic. I'm still at the "I don't know" stage, but I might sign up for the beta, at least get a good look at it before I decide. As it stands right now, I'd rather own my data sets on my local device instead of "gatewaying" them.
I am not a big fan of subscription either. Hopefully, they will have a discounted year rate.
I have been waiting for an Android version to use on a tablet. Looks like this will do what I need so I am happy for that.
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Hero Lab Online looks like a product I would rather not have anything to do with. It costs more , gives me no new features I want or can see any value in and will fail on the not unheard of occassions I cannot have internet access. Total failure to interest me.
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Starfinder is simple enough you don't need Herolabs.Today, yes.
Months from now when we have advanced race, class, magic, tech guides, blood of books, alien archives 1, 2, 3, each which contributes more playable races, etc, etc.
Not so much.
I think I need to save this post to reference in a year for comparison.
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Rob from Lone Wolf has started a QA thread on HLO and HLC. For me it does clear up some of the additional questions about HLO. Since they are supporting HLC for the foreseeable future with new Pathfinder releases I will continue to use it for Pathfinder.
As for Starfinder since our group is not yet ready to play it, since not everyone has gotten the Rule book yet I will be watching what HLO. I do like some of the features for shared content between players and GM's. If in the future I want to try HLO with Pathfinder, when it becomes available, I can still use HLC if I don't like it.
You can view the thread over at the Lone Wolf forums.
Good on PCGen for coming out with a Alpha for Starfinder. I will look at their product with equal measure when they go production on the product. I don't much care for running a ALPHA product.
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As much as I dont care for PCGen, when I start running Starfinder I may wind up using it. Mostly because it has two things going for it. One I can run it off of my local machine and two it's free.
HLO is a problem on both of those fronts.
If it were just me paying for a Starfinder add-on to the pre-existing software I'd pay for that in a heartbeat (as I have been doing). But HLO would be a separate tool (online as it's in the name) that I'd essentially be paying a subscription service for? That's pretty much a big NOPE for me.
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Alpha? Not even first out. I don't run beta, let alone alpha software. Lone Wolf has had an alpha for months. They showed it at Gencon.
Broken software with features not yet implemented (That is what Alpha software, by definition, is) may be "out of the gate", yes, but it is a gate LWD left long ago.
Cross the line with a bug free piece of release software? Ok. Diff story. PCGen could still win that race, too.
But not there yet.
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I love my Hero Lab and don't mind paying for the data sets. It's truly an invaluable time saver for a GM. However, Hero Lab with an ongoing subscription cost is going to be the deal breaker and ensure that I don't buy the Starfinder expansion.
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Alpha? Not even first out. I don't run beta, let alone alpha software. Lone Wolf has had an alpha for months. They showed it at Gencon.
I now have access to PCGen. I do NOT have access to Herolab Online.
I'd call that first out. In fact, I did and do :-).
I'm not saying PCGen is perfect, I'm not saying Herolab can't catch up, but I'm standing with my statement that they're first out of the gate
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It doesn't matter (to me) who's generator came out first. I'm more interested in what the support looks like a year from now. Maybe PCGen will bebefit from the slower release schedule for SF. If their PF track record is any indication, a year from now, PCGen will be about a year behind on releases.
-Skeld
It doesn't matter (to me) who's generator came out first. I'm more interested in what the support looks like a year from now. Maybe PCGen will bebefit from the slower release schedule for SF. If their PF track record is any indication, a year from now, PCGen will be about a year behind on releases.
-Skeld
Which begs the question: With HERO LAB you actually can go in and enter new feats and spells and other material manually. There's a learning curve but you CAN do it. Does PCGen allow you to do this as well?
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I'm doing the prep work now to run Starfinder Society scenarios and the Dead Suns AP. HLO has indicated they will be supporting stats for both characters and ships.
Ships take just as much time to get right as PCs do. The ability to quickly and accurately produce ship statblocks (and hopefully ship sheets, too) will be a major selling point for me.
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Which begs the question: With HERO LAB you actually can go in and enter new feats and spells and other material manually. There's a learning curve but you CAN do it. Does PCGen allow you to do this as well?It doesn't matter (to me) who's generator came out first. I'm more interested in what the support looks like a year from now. Maybe PCGen will bebefit from the slower release schedule for SF. If their PF track record is any indication, a year from now, PCGen will be about a year behind on releases.
-Skeld
I've heard you can and that it's easier than HL, but I've never tried so I don't have firsthand knowledge.
-Skeld
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It doesn't matter (to me) who's generator came out first.
-Skeld
I'm a Herolab user. One of the main disincentives to me using PCGen is that it will take time to learn how to use it and more time to learn how to alter it to my tastes.
Given that it is currently the ONLY choice, I'll be using it to create my characters (I've decided that I really don't like fillable pdfs).
So, when Herolab does come out with its open test, I'll already be somewhat or largely over the learning curve hump for PCGen.
While I don't know which I'll end up using, the probability of it being PCGen just went way up.
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I don't see any advantage for me to online, either. I use software to quickly generate a character sheet that I print out. I would not allow anyone to bring a device like a computer to the table to keep open at all times (an occasional rules reference is fine). If you play at my table, you're playing off a paper character sheet. I have seen no announcements of any way the online version would help with that.
I don't see any advantage for me to online, either. I use software to quickly generate a character sheet that I print out. I would not allow anyone to bring a device like a computer to the table to keep open at all times (an occasional rules reference is fine). If you play at my table, you're playing off a paper character sheet. I have seen no announcements of any way the online version would help with that.
Pretty sure the Guide to Organized Play says that folks playing in PFS/SFS (at least) may use electronic media.
Different for a home campaign, of course.
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In today's episode, technophobes meet "software-as-service" business model! Hilarity ensues, as usual.
One does not need to be ignorant or fearful of technology to find the software-as-a-service business model short-sighted and abhorrent.
It is worth remembering that Pathfinder and Starfidner are built on this business model's antithesis, the open license.
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In today's episode, technophobes meet "software-as-service" business model! Hilarity ensues, as usual.
Before describing people who dare to disagree with you as 'technophobes' it would probably be wise to make sure that is accurate.
My day Job is as a Computer Programmer and I like gadgets so I am clearly not a technophobe.What I am is able to look at a particular product concept and say that has no advantages for me over the existing model and it costs more and in that case I will have no interest in using it.
Also I can't be bothered with thinking up an annoying one world insult for those who shockingly have different opinions and may want different things from their software, such a strange concept that people may like different things!
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In today's episode, technophobes meet "software-as-service" business model! Hilarity ensues, as usual.One does not need to be ignorant or fearful of technology to find the software-as-a-service business model short-sighted and abhorrent.
It is worth remembering that Pathfinder and Starfidner are built on this business model's antithesis, the open license.
I never bothered to use legal MS Office back in the day it was on "pay once, pay again in few years" model, I started when they offered subscription-model payment with rolling updates and a terabyte of cloud space and multiple installations to boot.
I'd rather have Hero Lab move towards a "pay 10 bucks per month, access everything" model, but I'm very happy with them moving towards multiplatform service instead of relying on offline installations.
And my comment was aimed more at the "no screens in my game" and "subscription-based software is heresy!" folks. It's a horribly tech-hostile hobby and I went through my share of people refusing to allows use electronic sheets/references/dice rollers because of no logical reason.
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Gorbacz, I feel like your name-calling is probably directed at me.
I am by no means a technophobe. I live in a household with more computers than people, including until a few months ago a home server running gentoo linux that I was responsible for keeping working. I also maintain a website for a small not-for-profit. I have maintained my own web and mail server. I have just moved beyond the error that thinking anything high tech must be good, and now evaluate each piece of technology to see if it is good or bad.
Any software designer who changes their licensing to exclusively subscription based loses me as a customer. I will continue to use their last non-subscription release until it no longer works properly, and then I will find an alternative, code my own, or do without.
I did not say no screens in my game; sometimes a quick use of a tablet to look up a rule is the best way to go. What I did say is that I require character sheets to be on paper. People need to me looking at the map and the people they are playing with, not the bright glowing screen. Somehow, paper character sheets don't have the same effect of drawing everyone's attention.
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I did not say no screens in my game; sometimes a quick use of a tablet to look up a rule is the best way to go. What I did say is that I require character sheets to be on paper. People need to me looking at the map and the people they are playing with, not the bright glowing screen. Somehow, paper character sheets don't have the same effect of drawing everyone's attention.
I'm not trying to single you out or anything but do you feel this way about people who go through game related books at the table? or knit? or build dice towers? or fidget with dice? or are painting game related miniatures? Because demanding that they look at the map and the people that they game with for the entirety of the game session seems a bit draconian? (not sure if that's the right word though...)
My rule is: as long as you are paying attention enough to not make me have to repeat myself? I'm good. If there was noise or crosstalk or something that prevented you from hearing something that's fine. I'll repeat myself then. Forbidding the use of a character "sheet" from a phone or an ipad or phone does come across as a little technophobic (I understand that's not where YOU'RE coming from but on first glance...)and having players who do just that? We've been fine.
But, to each their own.
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The biggest issue I've had with portable electronics at the table is, paradoxically enough, speed.
When there is hard copy in front of someone, they can typically glance at everything and the roll and calculation are done in moments if not seconds.
When they have to use electronic devices they have to flip/scroll/wander, flip scroll wander, touch touch touch, flip scroll, push button, flip scroll "Nat twenty plus, ah, hold on, didn't have Bard's Song clicked, um, 27."
Granted, I haven't GM'd in Starfinder yet, but I can imagine the same thing happening, but far worse if the current proposed on-line version is going to be put in place.
"Hold on, I lost connection to the cloud. It's gonna be a moment or two. And it's back... no, it's gone."
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I'm not trying to single you out or anything but do you feel this way about people who go through game related books at the table? or knit? or build dice towers? or fidget with dice? or are painting game related miniatures? Because demanding that they look at the map and the people that they game with for the entirety of the game session seems a bit draconian? (not sure if that's the right word though...)My rule is: as long as you are paying attention enough to not make me have to repeat myself? I'm good. If there was noise or crosstalk or something that prevented you from hearing something that's fine. I'll repeat myself then. Forbidding the use of a character "sheet" from a phone or an ipad or phone does come across as a little technophobic (I understand that's not where YOU'RE coming from but on first glance...)and having players who do just that? We've been fine.
But, to each their own.
looking through books? Only if they are trying to clarify their next action during someone else's turn. All the studies showing that multitasking are a myth show that people can't actually read one thing and listen to words from another source.
painting minis? Other than mess this would be fine, but not if they are having to read any instructions. Same for knitting or anything else like that.
eating snacks? OK, as long as they are not crunchy or noisy, or likely to leave mess on gaming stuff.
Time to sit at a table and play RPGs with other people is precious. If we are doing that together, I expect people's full attention to be on the game. I don't know that I have ever met anyone who is able to do this with a tablet screen in front of them.
I can see how this might seem a little draconian to people who play with groups who do things differently. I'm sure my experiences are partly based on who I play with (my 7 and 11 year old children). If I even allow them to play with the dice, I constantly have to repeat things. If I have their full attention, the game goes smoothly, we tell the story we want, and everyone has a good time.
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In today's episode, technophobes meet "software-as-service" business model! Hilarity ensues, as usual.
I've never met a gamer that I'd describe as technophobic. Maybe this is a European thing?
I never bothered to use legal MS Office back in the day it was on "pay once, pay again in few years" model, I started when they offered subscription-model payment with rolling updates and a terabyte of cloud space and multiple installations to boot.
I feel the same way about MSOffice. What I don't like is a "buy it, then pay to access it" model like HL is offering. If it was stricly a sub, I'd consider it and it would come down to cost. As it stands right now, what they're offering isn't better for me that what I have now.
My rule is: as long as you are paying attention enough to not make me have to repeat myself? I'm good.
Having to repeat myself is my single biggest gaming peeve.
-Skeld
To me a game like pathfinder is a social interaction game. Players should be involved with each other, the game, the map, the mini's, etc.
Using a tablet or laptop to access a digital copy of a rulebook is fine for me.
BUT, Herolabs looks to be aiming to turn the game from a social game to a computer game, with everyone sitting behind a computer / tablet, etc. instead of table, map, etc.
At that point I'd much rather be playing WoW, STO, Neverwinter or any one of the MMO's out there.
I don't mind the new online only features, but I feel basic character / ship creation and manipulation like HLC has should remain a free service with the subscription fee covering the advanced features.
Or make it a real subscription, $5 a system and EVERYTHING is included for that system with no added data pack purchase, etc.
Which begs the question: With HERO LAB you actually can go in and enter new feats and spells and other material manually. There's a learning curve but you CAN do it. Does PCGen allow you to do this as well?
I don't think it's clear you will be able to do this with HLO. Has that been clarified?
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As to the whole thing generally, I don't have a problem with subscription-based models. I use Syrinscape and pay for their Fantasty+Sci-Fi combo.
But that's not what HLO is. You're getting spit-roasted: paying up front for your data packages and then paying on the back-end (in perpetuity) to maintain access to them and your characters. You're paying at both ends of the transaction. That's not a subscription-based model as I see it.
Instead of $20+ for the package and then $2/month, charge me $5/month (or $8 or $10) per game system, and give me everything as they release it without an upfront cost. I've been using HLC for... I don't know, three years now?
All that said, I do see people posting that they're pleased with the new features and functionality the HLO model is going to provide. I'm glad to see that. But they're also features that mean nothing to me and I don't want. It's impossible for me to say based on forum posts what the breakdown is going to be for existing HL customers and their adopting HLO, but personally, I'm looking at PC Gen now as an alternative, which I'd never have even considered before. Heck, I practically mandated HLC at my gaming tables, getting new players to buy it an invest in the data packages.
I used to love HL... just not feeling the love back. *shrug* Lone Wolf doesn't need to feel bad about that and they recognize customers will be voting with their money, but also providing feedback. We will see.
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I'd rather have Hero Lab move towards a "pay 10 bucks per month, access everything" model
I would also love this. However, what they're doing here is pretty much the opposite of that. They're continuing to charge per book for content while also requiring a monthly fee. That's a step backwards, not forwards.