Mind Flayer

Mahrdol's page

179 posts. Alias of Keasar.


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I am not a big fan of subscription either. Hopefully, they will have a discounted year rate.

I have been waiting for an Android version to use on a tablet. Looks like this will do what I need so I am happy for that.


I wish I had picked this up. I saw some of the starfinder core books and they looked pretty poor quality.


I would probably buy this but I saw a review and it said no maps. Does this come with maps? If it does can we get pictures?

thanks


That has to be one of my biggest complaints about the adventure paths that I have played and ran. They are full of Grind or what I call "thug" attacks. They are very straight up encounters that any decent party won't have any problem beating with a minimum of effort. I find them a waste of time and wish Paizo would cut some of the other items in the adventured path and flush out the encounters better. Usually I have to go through and change or add to the thug attack encounters to make them interesting. For example instead of fighting 10 Orc fighters over and over. I may change a couple of the fighters into spell casters, give them some consumable equipment like poison or potions and toss in a leader/boss. You would be surprised how a glitterdust or even a slow can change the dynamic of a fight. It does take a few hours for each book to do this. One of the reason why I don't DM as much as I could.


Christopher Buckley wrote:

If the plotter printed a run of several copies of the same map, it could probably do 8-10 copies in one hour.

I totally understand your concern with quality. That's why we all love Paizo so much! What I'm trying to say, however, is that the maps we've made (with very little effort) are far less pixellated than you might imagine. I don't know that I have the technical know-how to explain why this is the case, but it seems to me that the original map artwork is of a sufficiently high quality that not so much detail is lost when it gets enlarged to 1-sq-inch grid size.

This might be a good way to compare quality:
Paizo has a Game Mastery flip mat of Oleg's Trading Post from Kingmaker (which I purchased). What if I printed out an enlarged copy of Oleg's from the pdf of The Stolen Lands (i.e. an attempted copy of the official Paizo product) and sent it to you for you to compare quality?

Also, I fully understand that I don't have the right to sell Paizo intellectual property. I would be interested in the possibility of obtaining a license to do so if Paizo has no plans to make these sorts of maps.

I know I would be interested in such a product. I would rather be playing then drawing maps or waiting for a dm to draw them.


I think it would be a great selling point to your adventure paths if you could include 1 double sided miniature map for each series in the map pack. I have played a few of them and they usually have one area that is reused a few times. One that pops in my head is in the second darkness the theater/bar/casino would have been a great map to include.


james maissen wrote:
Diego Winterborg wrote:
0gre wrote:
And while we are on the topic, pseudo-dragons and imps. Mostly Imps actually who can talk, have hands, etc...

Being non-animal and thus sentient I would not place the same restrictions on those creatures. They have both the intelect and anatomy to do so, and since players have already invested feats and money into having those familiars, I do not se a balance issue either.

Incidentally i recall an adventure (not sure which) with a wand wielding imp/quasit/mephit. Was it Erylium?

A small point but a raven familiar is not an animal either.

Likewise they are sentient having INT scores of 6 or higher. Expressly they can speak as well as communicate with their master.

Not that it changes the ruling, but as these things are about splitting hairs you should get them right.

The point is that certain forms are not going to be allowed to use certain items. It's then not the case that a raven familiar can't use a wand but rather anything (PC/NPC) in raven form cannot use a wand. So if a PC (or NPC) druid were in the form of a raven they could not successfully manipulate a wand to activate it.

-James

I always ruled if you want your Raven familiar to use a wand it has to UMD it. Targeting with it is another issue. Magic missile probably fine. Scorching ray probably not. Now an imp would have no problem.


I am looking forward to trying this scenario. I sorta wish a scenario would kill me :)(not that it is a big deal you just lose some gold.)

I find most pathfinder society modules a little weak on story and difficulty compared to Living Greyhawk. Which surprises me because the adventure paths are very good. I think the biggest limiting factor on the quality of these mods is the size. I would love to see some Adventure paths or other modules produced by paizo converted to pathfinder society.


great stuff

thanks


Herolab kicks a$$. Nuff said...


0gre wrote:


As far as I'm concerned a flip mat that has prints on both sides is worth a lot more than one with a blank side is worth.

I have to agree. A LOT MORE. In fact some of them like the Pathfinder Lodge I bought 2 so I could have both levels/sides on the table at the same time.


A druid has as many or more actions then the summoner since he can spontaneously cast and has no limit on the summon nature ally spells so I really fail to see the issue. With the 30 or so people that I know who play pathfinder no one has any issues with Druids and actions.


YawarFiesta wrote:

How about this:

-Choose quadruped
-Put it in its bite
-Add reach twice and combat reflexes
-Multiatack may grant you an iterative attack
-Add pounce (optional)
-Finally add haste.

Wich give us between 4 and 5 attacks per round with poison, wich add up to +8 to the DC, each round, also you must factor the onset effect of the poison. So its quite breakable if not restricted, but not extremely if you ask me.

Humbly,
Yawar

The most I see is 3 and one attack is -5 and that means you have no other natural attacks on your Eidolon. Seems balanced to me.


Just limit pounce to natural attacks


xJoe3x wrote:
nate lange wrote:

Summoners need to be fixed-

their summon monster ability is VERY potent: nearly every summoner (with a racial +2 cha) will be able to use it 7+ times per day, far more than any other caster, and with its extended duration it allows for a lot of summoned help, even if you can only have one at a time (and starting @4th level, the summoner can use Invisibilty and remain invisible while summoning them).

Eidolons are much worse!
for example: make a biped; give it Weapon Proficiency-Greatsword for its 1st level feat; put every stat increase point in strength and buy the evolutions listed (plus whatever else you want with the leftover)-

level | evolutions | str | greatsword (hit;dmg)
1 | +2 str | 18 | +5;2d6+6
5 | ... | 21 | +9;2d6+7
6 | large, +2 str(x2)| 31 | +14;3d6+15
7 | ... | 32 | +16/11;3d6+16
10 | ... | 34 | +19/14;3d6+18
11 | huge | 42 | +23/18;4d6+24
12 | +2 str (x3) | 45 | +24/19;4d6+25
14 | ... | 45 | +26/21/16;4d6+25
15 | ... | 47 | +28/23/18;4d6+27
17 | ... | 48 | +30/25/20;4d6+28
18 | +2 str (x4) | 50 | +32/27/22;4d6+30*

if those numbers don't convince you imagine adding feats (Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Improved Critical, etc.), a magic weapon and a couple buff spells (summoners can learn Bull's Strength, Haste, Rage, etc; none of which end Invisibility)- then watch your party Fighter or Barbarian throw away their character sheet in disgust and start looking for a 4th edition game to join...

Paizo, please fix this class!

(* sorry, i r n00b and cant figure out how to format this chart; if you try you should be able to decipher it- if someone wants to tell me how to fix it i will...)

This is the same problem many have run into. You made him huge. You are only looking at the benefits ignoring the consequences. That being he...

Even with my large Eidolon there is a lot of situation where he isn't as effective. The cover rules for reach and his size makes the cover happen more often. Since my Eidolon has been large I bet 50% of his attacks have been at -4. Most of the time cover is caused by my own party members.


nidho wrote:

Mmmm, elementals are not insubstantial so I think what I said before stands. They can pick up, move or wield any weapon or object.

Proficiencies affect how well they can do it but the ability it's alredy there. A wildshaped druid has the proficiencies.
Size changes can be a problem to wield a manufactured weapon but that's not intrinsecally related to elemental forms.

So technically a druid could drop his scimitar wildshape into a medium sized elemental form them pick it up and start slashing things but the benefit he would get from it is marginal IMO.

Nothing says he can't carry around a large or huge weapon in a efficient quiver or whatever. Drop the weapon before he changes then pick it up. I look at wild shape as a buff. It is just another way a druid can buff str, dex, ac and increase size.


If they have a humanoid form they can wield weapons. I think it says in the monster description they can come in pretty much any shape they want. So air elemental could be a humanoid shaped avian looking creature.


Zurai wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Actually without cover of some sort the Balor can't even make a stealth check to be hidden... so you are assuming terrain that was not established in the initial rules and ignoring the fact that he doesn't have hide in plain sight.

Actually that's pretty irrelevant, because the Balor has a higher Perception check than either SG or ME, so it would still see them first. Which means it still gets to decide engagement range. Which is the premise the OP was working under.

Even if it was relevant, there is no such thing as a vast featureless plain. The intent was to test in as close to a real-world scenario as possible without having to specify an actual concrete arena, which would make the test too specific.

Quote:
It could be that he is invisible however with See invisibility on the Summoner's list it would also be a fair chance that said spell would be active rendering it useless too (meaning again no stealth check as the Balor is visible).

False. Read the OP. Only hours/level spells are allowed to be pre-cast.

Quote:
And I'm not at all clear why you chose to not take perception instead of stealth for summoner girl. Perception is much more useful and more likely and the summoner would have a perception check of +25.

Because ME already has Perception at +29.

Quote:
So the Balor is HIGHLY unlikely to get a surprise round
False. It's almost impossible for him to NOT get a surprise round.

It seems like the Balor is set up to lose. It is going to know exactly what it is facing with a +30 knowledge planes roll.

Ok if the Balor goes first why wouldn't it

1. teleport away and summon in a marilith. No way for the summoner to even know he was there since sp have no verbal components

2. come back buffed up

3. get his surprise round and Blasphemy on Eidolon and Summoner. Eidolon is paralyzed 1 round no matter what and loses 2d6 str for 1/2 of 2d4 rounds. Marilith starts harassing the summoner.

I know it is all hypothetical but the Balor should be given every advantage possible to justify its CR. %100 chance to bring in a marilith should be used. That is like saying a summoner can't use it's sla ability.


Selgard wrote:

Claws are useful because combined with the evolution to learn weapons, you can use a weapon in one hand and claw with the other.

Slam requires both of your hands to operate.

Slam can be useful because you can vital strike with it. (though personally I would go the bite -> evo damage -> extra damage feat -> poison evolution if I were going that route)

-S

ya bite is B/P/S too where slam is B

claws can rend...


you have to figure in power attack, and vital strike, large and the energy attack to the equation to see the whole picture

lets pick an attack with a 18 strength with level 6 power attack

slam 2d6(7) +6 +6 for power attack + 1d6(3) energy=22 damage

lets look at vital strike 4d6(14)+6+12(power attack doubled)+1d6(3) energy=35 damage

claws 1d6(3)x2 +4x2+4x2 power attack +1d6(3)x2 energy=28 damage over 2 attacks

Vital claw 2d6(7)x1 +4x1+8x1 power attack +1d6(3)x1 energy=22 damage over 1 attack

full attack action looks like claws wins on non dr opponents 22 to 30 and slams wins on single attacks by a lot 22 to 35


Zurai wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:
I think the natural armor evolution is a must have now anyway since they took away the armor.
Not at all. Take a look at my sample level 20 summoner thread. The Eidolon there has no special defenses aside from a mage armor and a ring of protection and a Balor full attacks it for ... 14 damage.

I just know at my current level of 6 my Eidolon has 25 AC(29 with mage armor) and that is spending 2 point for natural armor Evolution. In comparison the player who has a level 6 Druid with an animal companion has 28 AC.

I think the game breaks down after 12-14th level. I have never had a character higher then 15th level.


Cartigan wrote:

I totally want a huge Eidolon snake to eat people. But that's neither here nor there.

Most of the damage is going to come from number of limbs anyway. Give anything enough attacks and it becomes statistically more dangerous.

Just get a portable hole with a necklace of adaptation. They will have a big surprise when you toss the hole down and a snake jumps out of it.


Zurai wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:
Zurai wrote:
If you want your Summoner to heal, summon a good-aligned Outsider or a Unicorn. All Unicorns and most Good Outsiders on the summon list have healing spells of varying strengths and frequencies.
Hmm am I missing something I don't see a unicorn on summon monster list?
Sorry, it seems I was remembering them being on the 3.5 SNA list and transposing that to the PF SM list for some reason.

No problem it happens to all of us.


Zurai wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Caineach wrote:
I can call it platemail, or I could make it ablative pink bunnies. Either way, I can't take it off.
But you said it can't be plate mail because you can't take it off.

Here is my solution for the armor exception rule.

1. Drop the natural armor down in line with an animal companion and allow armor.

2. Make the Evolution for natural armor make up the difference in lost natural armor from 1 but state in the description of the evolution you can't wear armor.

Then that should make most of the players happy.

That imposes a tax on Eidolons:

1. This is a feat+gold tax. The Eidolon would be required to spend feats on the armor proficiencies (which, unlike weapons, have to be taken in order), and would have to spend money on what they used to get for free. Note that this would also prevent the Summoner from wearing armor, even if the Eidolon wasn't wearing magical armor.

2. This is an evolution point tax.

Either way, you're further nerfing Eidolons.

I think the natural armor evolution is a must have now anyway since they took away the armor. You are trading one evolution (nat armor) for armor proficiency evolutions or feats and gold. I am not too upset with the armor rule currently. Of all the current exception it is the least offensive to me. I think it should be made to fit into the current core rules if possible.

The sharing magic items rule is just plain silly. the druids animal companion has a link and it doesn't interfere with magic items...


Zurai wrote:
If you want your Summoner to heal, summon a good-aligned Outsider or a Unicorn. All Unicorns and most Good Outsiders on the summon list have healing spells of varying strengths and frequencies.

Hmm am I missing something I don't see a unicorn on summon monster list? I am currently up to 4th level summon monsters and none of them could heal so far. The only one that can sorta heal is the hound archon and that can cast aid.


Zurai wrote:
Caineach wrote:
I can call it platemail, or I could make it ablative pink bunnies. Either way, I can't take it off.
But you said it can't be plate mail because you can't take it off.

Here is my solution for the armor exception rule.

1. Drop the natural armor down in line with an animal companion and allow armor.

2. Make the Evolution for natural armor make up the difference in lost natural armor from 1 but state in the description of the evolution you can't wear armor.

Then that should make most of the players happy.


Cartigan wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Alright, here is SummonerGirl and her little friend, MightyEidolon. They're as optimized within the parameters as I can make them at 2:30 AM.

I'm not seeing your limb math. I swore they limited the number of natural attacks per last release (but I have no idea what it is because the d20pfsrd.com isn't updated and I don't have access to the PDF.) I can't quite tell if you are saying it is using natural attacks with weapon attacks, which I am positive is against the rules (which I can't find the details of, blast it)

Also, I don't know what you are saying here:

Quote:
+4 from mage armor becomes a +14 from +5 full plate

I thought the same thing but was corrected. All they limited was the natural attacks to 8 at level 20. So I guess you could have arms with weapons and still get 8 natural attacks.


nate lange wrote:
Kabump wrote:
Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:
Why are we talking about level 20? How often does the game get to that level? Where is the argument that the summoner is too powerful at 1st level? Or 5th, 7th, etc.? Has anyone crunched these numbers, or, hey, playtested it? I still challenge anyone who says any of the new classes are too powerful (or weak) to take them for a real spin, not a hypothetical one.
+1 Highly specific, theoretical examples does not an overpowered class make.

lol- yeah, that was actually why i started this thread- in mid-levels it seemed like the eidolon got kinda out of control:

@ 7th level it attacks as often as a fighter or barb, can have 32 str and a 3d6 greatsword (+16 from str, +6 power attack) and gets a tentacle (extra d6+7) at the same bonus as the iterative attack; oh, and has reach

@ 11th its strength can be 42 (without any buffs), with a 4d6 greatsword (4d6+33, without a magic sword), it only gets 2 attacks (starting at +30 with power attack and no buffs, enhancement bonus or weapon focus) to a melee class's 3, but it could have upto 3 tentacles which now only take -2 thanks to free multi-attack (3@ +28 for d8+11). granted, it has to stay within 100' of the summoner and, being huge, has problems with some buildings, dungeons, etc. but in playtest straight melee classes got frustrated matching its damage while summoner was free to summon other stuff, cast buffs, knit, etc.

i'd love to hear other real (preferably group) playtest experiences if anyone has em?

I play in pathfinder society and I have a 6th level Summoner. I regularly play with a fighter/cavalier 6 and a Druid 6.

My Eidolon does more damage on with full attack actions then the fighter except when fighting creatures with aligned DR then my damage drops considerable. He does more damage on single attacks. He has one feat that helps him a lot on damage and that is vital strike. My Eiodlon can't qualify for this yet until 9th level. His fighter build is not a optimal damage fighter. He is defensive fighter using long sword and shield with 26(24 with lunge) ac and sometimes he switches to a ransuer/guisarme I think it is to trip/disarm/sunder. My Eidolon has 23 ac without mage armor and that includes a ring of protection +2 that my Eidolon wears. My Eidolon is maximized for pure natural attack damage where his fitghter has lots of utility with all his feats.

Comparing my Eidolon to the Druids animal companion. The Druid player has an ape in full plate. Her companion armor is ac 28. I have 27 ac with mage armor and ring of protection +2. She has +11 to hit and does 1d6+8 a hit with 3 attacks. I am +13 to hit with 4 attacks doing 1d6+8 on 3 and 1 with 1d8+8.

All 3 of us contribute to every combat and I don't see my summoner outshining any other decently built class at the same level with the same type of character. Ya I have played with alchemists, bards and witches and my damage was off the chart compared to these 3 players. Their focus for those characters was not damage. In fact the witch has never done a point of damage in her whole career.

Edit. I just want to add that the fighter has a big tactical advantage because he is medium size. There have been many fights that I was not as effective because I could not get into the fight being large and combine that with the cover rules for reach attacks it can have a big effect. The fighter also has lunge so he has 10' reach and 15' reach with his reach weapons as a medium character if he wants. Fighters are not as handicapped as everyone makes them out.


Telrathel wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:

I think the thread was before the latest playtest changes so the Eidolon is limited to 8 attacks now instead of like 16+ or whatever it had before.
I really don't like the quad form anyway. The crappy will save is a big hole in the Eidolons defense.

nah this was all made after the latest changes, using wielded weapons you can still get more attacks then is limited to the max of natural attacks for the eidolon, and pounce just says you can make a full attack after a charge, so yes its still possible, just harder to do now.

Max 8 attacks is Max 8 attacks no matter how slice it. It says attacks not natural attacks.

This sounds like a rules over sight. Pounce should only work with natural weapons and no matter what the Eidolon can't exceed 8 attacks unless he is hasted...


Maezer wrote:

I really don't see the need for the line 'This poison can be used no more than once per round.' Its just not the way poison creatures work. If a giant wasp stings or a spider bites you twice in round you get poisoned twice.

It has been restricted it to a single bite or strig attack already. (A change I can understand as I expected to see some 10 tailed stinging eidolons.) And you cannot take the poison ability multie times. I think the once per round is a bit over the top. Though.

There is a bunch of weird exception rules that don't follow the core rulebook for the summoner and his Eidolon. I am hoping they clean it up over the next few months. How many attacks could you get anyway? 1 and another 1 for haste? Is that so broken?

You can summon a bunch of giant wasps and haste them and do way more poison damage.


Joseph Davis wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:
Joseph Davis wrote:
nate lange wrote:

there is also a discussion there about how a summoner (w/eidolon) can solo a balor in one round...

turns out its pretty easy, the summoner just teleports the eidolon into charge range and then the eidolon charges and does an expected 435 damage (or 502 if you factor in crits)

I may be missing something here, but how does the Eidolon get that much damage from one attack? Or did it get an ability that gives it the ability to get multiple attacks on a charge?
Pounce.
Yeah, I edited it, my bad :P

I think the thread was before the latest playtest changes so the Eidolon is limited to 8 attacks now instead of like 16+ or whatever it had before.

I really don't like the quad form anyway. The crappy will save is a big hole in the Eidolons defense.


Joseph Davis wrote:
nate lange wrote:

there is also a discussion there about how a summoner (w/eidolon) can solo a balor in one round...

turns out its pretty easy, the summoner just teleports the eidolon into charge range and then the eidolon charges and does an expected 435 damage (or 502 if you factor in crits)

I may be missing something here, but how does the Eidolon get that much damage from one attack? Or did it get an ability that gives it the ability to get multiple attacks on a charge?

Pounce.


It seems most people who have problems with the summoner SLA really have a problem with summoning in general.

With the new changes made to the summoner spell list it did make me rely more on my SLA.

I would be just as happy with rounds + charisma bonus or even give the sumoner free extend. That being said I don't think the minutes per level is all that game breaking and I hardly ever go over 1 minute use anyway. I did summon a Dire Bat and I used handle animal to ferry the party across an obstruction so the minutes per level is nice in some applications.

As a DM if a summoner summoned a bunch of dogs or elemental and just sent them off into the dungeon to burn it down or trip all the traps. I would think that tactic could have some bad repercussions to the party. Like activating more then one encounter.


james maissen wrote:
King of Vrock wrote:


James buddy, the class isn't even a class yet... we're still in playtest. When the APG comes out and then paizo comes in and nerfs your favorite thing in it you can make a statement like this. Right now just breathe easy and play with the tweak and know that things can still change between now and august!

I mean we should all feel lucky we're privileged enough to get a say in how these new classes are developed. The Open Playtest is really a testament to the fantastic relationship between Paizo and we the community.

--Vrock the Casbah!

Well what I'm seeing here is simply knee-jerk reactionary changes with little thought behind them.

Consider how many rules 'exceptions' the summoner class has, and ask yourself if any of them are even needed.

I, honestly, think that a statement for each class should be provided where the designers say how they envision the class serving in a party. Considering that a summoner's focus isn't summoning but one customizable pet, an oracle doesn't focus on being an oracle, etc.

I'm disappointed with the way I've seen the summoner develop in its incarnations. Not only in the end result, but in the process of thought that I see behind them.

For example: why disallow the critters to wear armor? If the AC is a problem its far easier (imho) to alter the table which gives them loads of natural armor than to make them a rules exception.

-James

It looks like the design of the summoner is to make the Eiodlon free form as much as possible. If you just reduce the natural armor so they can wear armor then you are pretty much requiring all Eidolons to wear armor and I don't think that is the intent. Of all the exceptions the summoner has the armor one is the least offensive to me. I think there is a solution to satisfy everyone. Reduce the natural armor and allow armor and change the natural armor evolution to have greater effect with the caveat that if you take this evolution you can't wear armor.


That is chump chamge for damage at level 18. An ape Druid animal companion with great sword with armor/magic items, buffs and animal growth can pretty much do the same and the Druid is a wrecking machine too.


Cartigan wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:
Heladriell wrote:

Maybe if the eidolon and the summoner shared slots and effects, things would make more sense, since they are just as one.

If the summoner has a +6 intelligence item, he and the eidolon would receive the benefit, but the eidolon would not be able to receive effects from items he wore in the same slot.
The other way should work too: the eidolon wearing an item would make the summoner's slot occupied, but both would receive the benefit.

I see a problem with that then you are getting 2x the benefit per gold piece spent.

Yes and no. For certain items, yes. But for other items, you are either missing a bonus the eidolon could use or missing a bonus the summoner could use. See Amulet Might Fists vs Amulet Natural Armor.

I don't disagree both should get whatever items they want. A character should only have so much gold so there is already a mechanic in place to limit what he can buy. If he wants to buy 2 amulets then he just needs to pay for them. Other classes would have a better magic amulet or would buy more magic items instead of the 2nd amulet. Seems balanced already


Chris Ballard wrote:
The one thing I'll miss from the evolutions list: armor training. I see the eidolon as either support front line dd or tank depending on the equipment and evolutions used. But that's just the way I would like to play it. With the loss of that evolution, there's going to be evolution points that I won't have a need for.

I don't have an issue with this. You can spend the points on natural armor evolution. 2 points gets you 4 ac which is like a chain shirt.


Heladriell wrote:

Maybe if the eidolon and the summoner shared slots and effects, things would make more sense, since they are just as one.

If the summoner has a +6 intelligence item, he and the eidolon would receive the benefit, but the eidolon would not be able to receive effects from items he wore in the same slot.
The other way should work too: the eidolon wearing an item would make the summoner's slot occupied, but both would receive the benefit.

I see a problem with that then you are getting 2x the benefit per gold piece spent.


This should be a gold issues and not a summoner issue. At x level you have x amount of gold per character. Unless a DM says a Eidolon should get full share of gold, It can be easily controlled. Someone please explain why a summoner needs to share magic items and a druid does not? They both have links

I know a Druid player who is buying her ape adamantite full-plate. If she chooses to put all her gold into her animal companion and gimp her character then that is her choose.


MaverickWolf wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Having HD equal to the summoner's level would be overpowered I think. The eidolon (when properly equipped) is now equal to or better than the party fighter in nearly every way.
Except, of course, that the party fighter can't be dismissed or banished and isn't poofed by anti-magic effects.

and doesn't loose its hp if it is 100' of more away from the party.

And doesn't disable another character by being properly equipped (you know, like other companions just take gold, and not magic item slots).

ya that is a silly rule. I wonder if Druids animal companions are going to get errated with the same rule. They also have a link. It only make sense.


Zurai wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Having HD equal to the summoner's level would be overpowered I think. The eidolon (when properly equipped) is now equal to or better than the party fighter in nearly every way.
Except, of course, that the party fighter can't be dismissed or banished and isn't poofed by anti-magic effects.

and doesn't loose its hp if it is 100' of more away from the party.


I think the sumoners class is a great idea that falls short due to exception rules specifically created for the summoner. Like patching a hole in a ship with some loose board laying around.

Other Changes I think are bad

I think the loss of HD at level 1 for the Eidolon was bad call.

With the current spell list changes I think summoner should be changed to sorcerer spell progression. They need high level summon spells that are not tied into the SLA.


Cartigan wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:


you have to wait for the next day

I'm going to state this here. Take it how you like it.

I do NOT care what your opinion is. If I wanted player opinions, I wouldn't have posted it in this thread.

read the PDF

A summoner can summon his eidolon once per day in
a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform.
When summoned
in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from
the last time it was summoned. The only exception to
this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns
with half its normal hit points. The eidolon remains
until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If
the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to damage,
it cannot be summoned again until the following day.

The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and
banishment work normally.

This is the only way you can't resummon your Eidolon that day.

If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to damage,
it cannot be summoned again until the following day.

That pretty much covers most of your questions.

You are right I am not a designer but I did read the PDF and I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night.


Cartigan wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

If we are going to raise questions here:

1) What are the rules for resummoning an Eidolon dismissed via Banishment/Dismissal/etc
2) What are the rules for resummoning an Eidolon dismissed by the Summoner himself?
3) What kind of summon is the Eidolon? Is calling the Eidolon a Supernatural ability or is it Spell-like? How does this relate to the effect of SLA Metamagic and feats like Augmented Summoning.

As far as I can tell the re-summoning is fairly straight forward. If the eidolon is dismissed do to any effect except through "death", the summoner is free to re-summon the eidolon, but only once per day.

The problem here is that it doesn't say that. The only thing it says is what happens if the Eidolon is destroyed by damage. And even that rule is ambiguous.

4) What happens if my Eidolon was summoned yesterday, but was destroyed by damage today?

players and DM will be trying to sort out the summoners rules for months to come as they are written now

you have to wait for the next day

more important question what happens when the summoner dies does the Eidolon just carry around his body so he stays around? If the link severed and the summoners soul goes to another plane does the summons vanishes since it has to be 10,000 feet away?


1) What are the rules for resummoning an Eidolon dismissed via Banishment/Dismissal/etc

They can be banished and dismissed and you can re-summon once a day.

2) What are the rules for resummoning an Eidolon dismissed by the Summoner himself?

You can dismiss and then re-summon it once a day

3) What kind of summon is the Eidolon? Is calling the Eidolon a Supernatural ability or is it Spell-like? How does this relate to the effect of SLA Metamagic and feats like Augmented Summoning.

apparently Since it is summoned through a "ritual" it does not benefit from augment summoning


Cartigan wrote:

Which is completely counter how every OTHER magic modifying feat works.
Also, would that mean that the Eidolon, as a summoned creature, would benefit from Augment Summoning.

Lets see how many other exception rules the summoner has.

1. Summoner shares magic items with its companion.

2. companion can't wear armor.

3. Bipedal Eidolon gets reach at large but no extra reach going huge. I guess its arms stop growing

4. Eidolon is summoned sorta even tho technically its not considered summoned. see ritual below. Can't be dispelled and can attack through a magic circle but can be dismissed and banished.

5. Eidolon companion has to be near summoner or it loses hit points. That is a weird mechanic.

6. Spell like ability can only have one active, takes a standard to cast ands lasts a minite a level. Augment summoning apparently works on the SLA because the powers that be said so.

7. Eidolon is summoned with a ritual? Since it is summoned with said ritual apparently augment summoning don't work.

This class is going to be a rules nightmare for months to come.


Just Downloaded it. No update.

So a huge bipedal eidolon has 10' reach same as large? I wish you guys would be consistent with your rules. Summoner class has enuff odd rules already...


Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:
Sorry unless it specifically states you can't then you can pick what ever you want just like a neutral summoner can summon celestial or fiendish creatures or a neutral cleric can choose to inflict or heal

Um, there IS a difference between "must be opposed" and "cannot be opposed" besides the positive/negative.

In the former, the condition must be met. No other solution will work.

In the latter, the condition cannot be met. Any solution that does not meet the conditon is acceptable.

The latter is far broader. Thus, a true neutral cleric can cast [Good] and [Evil] spells, since neither are opposed to his alignment, but a true neutral summoner CANNOT choose an Eidolon to have DR/Good or Evil or Law or Chaos since none of these are opposed to his alignment.

Zurai is correct on this one.

So if a new player creates a Neutral "Elemental" type summoner. Then basically you are saying they are screwed because none of their attacks become aligned or their DR evolutions will work.

That is a poor design. This class has some very hokey rules to fit some of its design.


Zurai wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:

Play a neutral summoner and you can choose what ever alignment DR you want since it has no opposite.

Nope. If you're True Neutral, your Eidolon cannot take the Damage Reduction evolution. The DR must be of an alignment opposite of yours. The only possible way to get DR/good on your Eidolon is to be Evil.

Sorry unless it specifically states you can't then you can pick what ever you want just like a neutral summoner can summon celestial or fiendish creatures or a neutral cleric can choose to inflict or heal.

I would also argue all alignments are in opposition of neutral.

Go to alignment chart

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