That has to be one of my biggest complaints about the adventure paths that I have played and ran. They are full of Grind or what I call "thug" attacks. They are very straight up encounters that any decent party won't have any problem beating with a minimum of effort. I find them a waste of time and wish Paizo would cut some of the other items in the adventured path and flush out the encounters better. Usually I have to go through and change or add to the thug attack encounters to make them interesting. For example instead of fighting 10 Orc fighters over and over. I may change a couple of the fighters into spell casters, give them some consumable equipment like poison or potions and toss in a leader/boss. You would be surprised how a glitterdust or even a slow can change the dynamic of a fight. It does take a few hours for each book to do this. One of the reason why I don't DM as much as I could.
Christopher Buckley wrote:
I know I would be interested in such a product. I would rather be playing then drawing maps or waiting for a dm to draw them.
I think it would be a great selling point to your adventure paths if you could include 1 double sided miniature map for each series in the map pack. I have played a few of them and they usually have one area that is reused a few times. One that pops in my head is in the second darkness the theater/bar/casino would have been a great map to include.
james maissen wrote:
I always ruled if you want your Raven familiar to use a wand it has to UMD it. Targeting with it is another issue. Magic missile probably fine. Scorching ray probably not. Now an imp would have no problem.
I am looking forward to trying this scenario. I sorta wish a scenario would kill me :)(not that it is a big deal you just lose some gold.)
I find most pathfinder society modules a little weak on story and difficulty compared to Living Greyhawk. Which surprises me because the adventure paths are very good. I think the biggest limiting factor on the quality of these mods is the size. I would love to see some Adventure paths or other modules produced by paizo converted to pathfinder society.
The most I see is 3 and one attack is -5 and that means you have no other natural attacks on your Eidolon. Seems balanced to me.
Even with my large Eidolon there is a lot of situation where he isn't as effective. The cover rules for reach and his size makes the cover happen more often. Since my Eidolon has been large I bet 50% of his attacks have been at -4. Most of the time cover is caused by my own party members.
Nothing says he can't carry around a large or huge weapon in a efficient quiver or whatever. Drop the weapon before he changes then pick it up. I look at wild shape as a buff. It is just another way a druid can buff str, dex, ac and increase size.
It seems like the Balor is set up to lose. It is going to know exactly what it is facing with a +30 knowledge planes roll.
Ok if the Balor goes first why wouldn't it
1. teleport away and summon in a marilith. No way for the summoner to even know he was there since sp have no verbal components
2. come back buffed up
3. get his surprise round and Blasphemy on Eidolon and Summoner. Eidolon is paralyzed 1 round no matter what and loses 2d6 str for 1/2 of 2d4 rounds. Marilith starts harassing the summoner.
I know it is all hypothetical but the Balor should be given every advantage possible to justify its CR. %100 chance to bring in a marilith should be used. That is like saying a summoner can't use it's sla ability.
ya bite is B/P/S too where slam is B
claws can rend...
you have to figure in power attack, and vital strike, large and the energy attack to the equation to see the whole picture
lets pick an attack with a 18 strength with level 6 power attack
slam 2d6(7) +6 +6 for power attack + 1d6(3) energy=22 damage
lets look at vital strike 4d6(14)+6+12(power attack doubled)+1d6(3) energy=35 damage
claws 1d6(3)x2 +4x2+4x2 power attack +1d6(3)x2 energy=28 damage over 2 attacks
Vital claw 2d6(7)x1 +4x1+8x1 power attack +1d6(3)x1 energy=22 damage over 1 attack
full attack action looks like claws wins on non dr opponents 22 to 30 and slams wins on single attacks by a lot 22 to 35
I just know at my current level of 6 my Eidolon has 25 AC(29 with mage armor) and that is spending 2 point for natural armor Evolution. In comparison the player who has a level 6 Druid with an animal companion has 28 AC.
I think the game breaks down after 12-14th level. I have never had a character higher then 15th level.
Just get a portable hole with a necklace of adaptation. They will have a big surprise when you toss the hole down and a snake jumps out of it.
No problem it happens to all of us.
I think the natural armor evolution is a must have now anyway since they took away the armor. You are trading one evolution (nat armor) for armor proficiency evolutions or feats and gold. I am not too upset with the armor rule currently. Of all the current exception it is the least offensive to me. I think it should be made to fit into the current core rules if possible.
The sharing magic items rule is just plain silly. the druids animal companion has a link and it doesn't interfere with magic items...
If you want your Summoner to heal, summon a good-aligned Outsider or a Unicorn. All Unicorns and most Good Outsiders on the summon list have healing spells of varying strengths and frequencies.
Hmm am I missing something I don't see a unicorn on summon monster list? I am currently up to 4th level summon monsters and none of them could heal so far. The only one that can sorta heal is the hound archon and that can cast aid.
Here is my solution for the armor exception rule.
1. Drop the natural armor down in line with an animal companion and allow armor.
2. Make the Evolution for natural armor make up the difference in lost natural armor from 1 but state in the description of the evolution you can't wear armor.
Then that should make most of the players happy.
I thought the same thing but was corrected. All they limited was the natural attacks to 8 at level 20. So I guess you could have arms with weapons and still get 8 natural attacks.
nate lange wrote:
I play in pathfinder society and I have a 6th level Summoner. I regularly play with a fighter/cavalier 6 and a Druid 6.
My Eidolon does more damage on with full attack actions then the fighter except when fighting creatures with aligned DR then my damage drops considerable. He does more damage on single attacks. He has one feat that helps him a lot on damage and that is vital strike. My Eiodlon can't qualify for this yet until 9th level. His fighter build is not a optimal damage fighter. He is defensive fighter using long sword and shield with 26(24 with lunge) ac and sometimes he switches to a ransuer/guisarme I think it is to trip/disarm/sunder. My Eidolon has 23 ac without mage armor and that includes a ring of protection +2 that my Eidolon wears. My Eidolon is maximized for pure natural attack damage where his fitghter has lots of utility with all his feats.
Comparing my Eidolon to the Druids animal companion. The Druid player has an ape in full plate. Her companion armor is ac 28. I have 27 ac with mage armor and ring of protection +2. She has +11 to hit and does 1d6+8 a hit with 3 attacks. I am +13 to hit with 4 attacks doing 1d6+8 on 3 and 1 with 1d8+8.
All 3 of us contribute to every combat and I don't see my summoner outshining any other decently built class at the same level with the same type of character. Ya I have played with alchemists, bards and witches and my damage was off the chart compared to these 3 players. Their focus for those characters was not damage. In fact the witch has never done a point of damage in her whole career.
Edit. I just want to add that the fighter has a big tactical advantage because he is medium size. There have been many fights that I was not as effective because I could not get into the fight being large and combine that with the cover rules for reach attacks it can have a big effect. The fighter also has lunge so he has 10' reach and 15' reach with his reach weapons as a medium character if he wants. Fighters are not as handicapped as everyone makes them out.
Max 8 attacks is Max 8 attacks no matter how slice it. It says attacks not natural attacks.
This sounds like a rules over sight. Pounce should only work with natural weapons and no matter what the Eidolon can't exceed 8 attacks unless he is hasted...
There is a bunch of weird exception rules that don't follow the core rulebook for the summoner and his Eidolon. I am hoping they clean it up over the next few months. How many attacks could you get anyway? 1 and another 1 for haste? Is that so broken?
You can summon a bunch of giant wasps and haste them and do way more poison damage.
Joseph Davis wrote:
I think the thread was before the latest playtest changes so the Eidolon is limited to 8 attacks now instead of like 16+ or whatever it had before.I really don't like the quad form anyway. The crappy will save is a big hole in the Eidolons defense.
Joseph Davis wrote:
It seems most people who have problems with the summoner SLA really have a problem with summoning in general.
With the new changes made to the summoner spell list it did make me rely more on my SLA.
I would be just as happy with rounds + charisma bonus or even give the sumoner free extend. That being said I don't think the minutes per level is all that game breaking and I hardly ever go over 1 minute use anyway. I did summon a Dire Bat and I used handle animal to ferry the party across an obstruction so the minutes per level is nice in some applications.
As a DM if a summoner summoned a bunch of dogs or elemental and just sent them off into the dungeon to burn it down or trip all the traps. I would think that tactic could have some bad repercussions to the party. Like activating more then one encounter.
james maissen wrote:
It looks like the design of the summoner is to make the Eiodlon free form as much as possible. If you just reduce the natural armor so they can wear armor then you are pretty much requiring all Eidolons to wear armor and I don't think that is the intent. Of all the exceptions the summoner has the armor one is the least offensive to me. I think there is a solution to satisfy everyone. Reduce the natural armor and allow armor and change the natural armor evolution to have greater effect with the caveat that if you take this evolution you can't wear armor.
I don't disagree both should get whatever items they want. A character should only have so much gold so there is already a mechanic in place to limit what he can buy. If he wants to buy 2 amulets then he just needs to pay for them. Other classes would have a better magic amulet or would buy more magic items instead of the 2nd amulet. Seems balanced already
Chris Ballard wrote:
The one thing I'll miss from the evolutions list: armor training. I see the eidolon as either support front line dd or tank depending on the equipment and evolutions used. But that's just the way I would like to play it. With the loss of that evolution, there's going to be evolution points that I won't have a need for.
I don't have an issue with this. You can spend the points on natural armor evolution. 2 points gets you 4 ac which is like a chain shirt.
I see a problem with that then you are getting 2x the benefit per gold piece spent.
This should be a gold issues and not a summoner issue. At x level you have x amount of gold per character. Unless a DM says a Eidolon should get full share of gold, It can be easily controlled. Someone please explain why a summoner needs to share magic items and a druid does not? They both have links
I know a Druid player who is buying her ape adamantite full-plate. If she chooses to put all her gold into her animal companion and gimp her character then that is her choose.
ya that is a silly rule. I wonder if Druids animal companions are going to get errated with the same rule. They also have a link. It only make sense.
and doesn't loose its hp if it is 100' of more away from the party.
I think the sumoners class is a great idea that falls short due to exception rules specifically created for the summoner. Like patching a hole in a ship with some loose board laying around.
Other Changes I think are bad
I think the loss of HD at level 1 for the Eidolon was bad call.
With the current spell list changes I think summoner should be changed to sorcerer spell progression. They need high level summon spells that are not tied into the SLA.
read the PDF
A summoner can summon his eidolon once per day in
This is the only way you can't resummon your Eidolon that day.
If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to damage,
That pretty much covers most of your questions.
You are right I am not a designer but I did read the PDF and I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night.
players and DM will be trying to sort out the summoners rules for months to come as they are written now
you have to wait for the next day
more important question what happens when the summoner dies does the Eidolon just carry around his body so he stays around? If the link severed and the summoners soul goes to another plane does the summons vanishes since it has to be 10,000 feet away?
1) What are the rules for resummoning an Eidolon dismissed via Banishment/Dismissal/etc
They can be banished and dismissed and you can re-summon once a day.
2) What are the rules for resummoning an Eidolon dismissed by the Summoner himself?
You can dismiss and then re-summon it once a day
3) What kind of summon is the Eidolon? Is calling the Eidolon a Supernatural ability or is it Spell-like? How does this relate to the effect of SLA Metamagic and feats like Augmented Summoning.
apparently Since it is summoned through a "ritual" it does not benefit from augment summoning
Lets see how many other exception rules the summoner has.
1. Summoner shares magic items with its companion.
2. companion can't wear armor.
3. Bipedal Eidolon gets reach at large but no extra reach going huge. I guess its arms stop growing
4. Eidolon is summoned sorta even tho technically its not considered summoned. see ritual below. Can't be dispelled and can attack through a magic circle but can be dismissed and banished.
5. Eidolon companion has to be near summoner or it loses hit points. That is a weird mechanic.
6. Spell like ability can only have one active, takes a standard to cast ands lasts a minite a level. Augment summoning apparently works on the SLA because the powers that be said so.
7. Eidolon is summoned with a ritual? Since it is summoned with said ritual apparently augment summoning don't work.
This class is going to be a rules nightmare for months to come.
Mirror, Mirror wrote:
So if a new player creates a Neutral "Elemental" type summoner. Then basically you are saying they are screwed because none of their attacks become aligned or their DR evolutions will work.
That is a poor design. This class has some very hokey rules to fit some of its design.
Sorry unless it specifically states you can't then you can pick what ever you want just like a neutral summoner can summon celestial or fiendish creatures or a neutral cleric can choose to inflict or heal.
I would also argue all alignments are in opposition of neutral.
Go to alignment chart