I'd suggest that you post them in that thread as Rob has indicated they'll be answering them next week, once they're back an recovered from the show.
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Everything seems great... except at cons, with the level of WiFi use it's likely you'll lose access to your character...
I love the responsive design to be able to use it on a phone, tablet, or computer... that's awesome.
Also, I would be really apprehensive to port to online if I lose my traditional HeroLab.
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Jesus. This is awful. Everything I've read seems to indicate that Starfinder is NOT coming to the traditional Hero Lab. These online services tend to be awful and don't work at all in Cons.
I am extremely disappointed by this. Are they trying to compete with D&D online? Because I haven't used it but I've heard nothing but bad things.
While I am leery about an online-only version, I'm intrigued to see what they've put together. Another point to consider...how much of their user base (current or future) is focused on Con-based play?
I just hope to heck they have an off-line version that works in the Hero Lab program, otherwise that's pretty much it for any product I'm going to purchase for Starfinder.
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Even outside of cons, in the vast majority of physical games I've played the only internet I have is tethering through my phone. This chews through my phone battery and uses up my data plan, so I try to limit that as much as possible.
Having the ability to use and manage my character offline is a must, so this sounds like a non-starter. I also doubt that this new application will be remotely as extensible in terms of adding custom items or mechanics (and the current app is already a piece of crud as far as that is concerned with its underperforming and underdocumented custom scripting language).
Even D&D Beyond (which was mentioned above) is working on an offline version, and in the meantime you can export your character so you have something to work with. I hope that this "Hero Lab Online" will do the same and not be all-online all the time. Given the glacial pace of Realm Works development and broken deadlines, I don't think I'll be trying out this new version for a couple of years.
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I just hope to heck they have an off-line version that works in the Hero Lab program, otherwise that's pretty much it for any product I'm going to purchase for Starfinder.
While they said that they may port Starfinder to the off-line version, and that the offline version would be supported "for years," I did not get the impression that the port of Starfinder is on the current schedule for the foreseeable future.
I'll get it for sure... but it won't be as useful since con-use will be impossible. (While there's usually connectivity, it's too strapped for consistency)
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I don't do subscription software. I have been using PCgen for Pathfinder, but was considering looking into HeroLab for Starfinder. I am growing frustrated at how long after a book's release it takes for it to show up for PCgen. I will do every single character sheet by hand on paper before I will even consider any subscription software, though.
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I have purchased Herolab - all of it for Pathfinder (and a few more systems on top of that, too) and I will continue to do so.
I will purchase Starfinder for Herolab, whether that is Online or Offline. I have been (and will continue to be) a loyal - if not enthusiastic - customer of Herolab and Lone Wolf.
That said, I am NOT HAPPY about being forced to move to an Online model only though with Starfinder, nor am I pleased about incurring a yearly fee to access it. I have not been provided with a choice here.
And I don't like that. Not one little bit.
Most of all, I am less than enthused that more code uncertainty and vectors for difficulty in delivering a timely product have been layered on top of a new Starfinder product for Herolab so that it is not available on release of the game.
I wanted a timely product. I'm not getting it. That's it. The rest is simply excuses. It's either on time or it isn't. There is no room to finesse that statement.
Given the difficulty and uncertainties ahead, it may not be until 2018 until we get a working, stable, bug-free version of this software. Am I happy about that? No. I'm not frikkin happy about that -- and I am not going to that I am, either.
It would be one thing if Lone Wolf Development had released a stand-alone version of the software on release of Starfinder with SFO to come later. Instead, we are left hanging with delays, uncertainties, beta-testing and all that comes with biting off more than they could comfortably chew.
So now I have a game with no character management software, no tactical console, no nothing. What I have are promises of there is a "beta coming".
Beta, schmeta. What I wanted is reliable software I could use with my new game upon its release. And now I don't have it.
So no, I'm not happy about that. It was entirely foreseeable too. There isn't anyone who has worked in software development who would not have said "they'll probably be late". It's as surprising as day following night.
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This was posted on their forums by one of the programmers.
"To those of you doing so, please stop posting assumptions and give us a chance to answer questions. We just got home from a crazy GenCon barely 24 hours ago. We're all exhausted. Some of us are sick from the "Con Crud". And I stated at the top that we would be providing answers this week, AFTER we got settled back in. Give us a chance to do that. Please?
Sheesh!
EDIT: For everyone else, please don't interpret the assumptions of others as fact and draw conclusions based on those assumptions. There's plenty of wrong information in this thread. We'll get you actual answers shortly. THEN you can weigh in with your opinions on how this is all going to work. Thanks!"
What does this mean? I have no idea. This is such a mess. They should have had some kind of press release or something to go out with the announcement at Gencon. People at the presentation might have some idea what is going to happen to the program they've invested possibly hundreds of dollars into, but they can't blame us for speculating in the vacuum of any solid information.
I don't do subscription software. I have been using PCgen for Pathfinder, but was considering looking into HeroLab for Starfinder. I am growing frustrated at how long after a book's release it takes for it to show up for PCgen. I will do every single character sheet by hand on paper before I will even consider any subscription software, though.
Just saying, we accept volunteers... :)
This was posted on their forums by one of the programmers.
I believe that was Rob Bowes, owner of LWD.
I ordered one of everything for Starfinder because Hero Labs said they were trying to have it out at the end of the month (which I assume really meant end of September).
If I had known it might be online only, subscription based I'd have passed on the system entirely.
I went through the same thing with D&D 5th. Bought a lot of stuff to get into the system because we were promised a fully functional character editor and the company bailed on it.
Wow, if this is true it really sucks and pretty much kills all my enthusiasm for the system.
This is such a mess. They should have had some kind of press release or something to go out with the announcement at Gencon.
THIS is the biggest issue.
If they were going to change there business model for Starfinder ton an online subscription model that should have been made clear weeks ago instead of waiting for some big reveal at gencon.
It should have been more important to them to support there ENTIRE customer base instead of trying to make a big splash to a select MINORITY of backers at gencon, and then whine and complain about the backlash afterwards.
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I believe that was Rob Bowes, owner of LWD.This was posted on their forums by one of the programmers.
Yes it was.
I would observe, however, that Lone Wolf is in the business of selling things through the internet. That's the entirety of their business relationship with their customer base. 100% of it. They communicate with their customers through that medium.
So when they don't do that, or they do so with insufficient clarity == misinformation, speculation and unhappiness among some of those customers will inevitably result.
That may happen because the people involved have other priorities. Family, business, health, sanity. All of them may be excellent reasons.
That's fine too. They get to set those priorities.
But what you don't get to do is set those priorities and then complain when the foreseeable consequences of those priorities come to pass.
It's called customer goodwill and you need to take care of it. If you don't because other things are more important to you at the time? That's fine. You make your choices.
But you do have to live with them. You don't get to have it both ways. Nowhere else should that be more clear than on the Paizo Message Boards which are a model of enhancing customer goodwill on a daily basis.
Nowhere else should that be more clear than on the Paizo Message Boards which are a model of enhancing customer goodwill on a daily basis.
Its been a while since I've posted here, mainly because I experienced the exact opposite on the forums, so much so I quite pathfinder for a very long time, so I have to ask, has this changed or was that a sarcastic comment?
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Nowhere else should that be more clear than on the Paizo Message Boards which are a model of enhancing customer goodwill on a daily basis.Its been a while since I've posted here, mainly because I experienced the exact opposite on the forums, so much so I quite pathfinder for a very long time, so I have to ask, has this changed or was that a sarcastic comment?
It certainly was not. Paizo staff go out of their way, daily, to explain the game, their products, and the reason for their decisions. They do it every day. Out of their own time. Every. Single. Day.
They have done it for more than ten years. It is a hallmark of their relationship with their customers. It is exemplary.
Contrast it to the position, over the years, where TSR or WotC employees (doesn't matter which edition) were deliberately insulated from and discouraged from interacting with customers online.
It is a night and day comparison.
And to be clear, Lone Wolf Dev is normally very good at it, too. My guess is that LWD was concerned about promising a release date in an environment full of uncertainty which can just antagonize the hell out of people. I get that, totally.
Problem is, such silence (however well intended) allows people to make up their own views, those get repeated and suddenly somebody else is writing your news releases for you. Right or wrong, it affects your goodwill so you need to get ahead of it.
Paizo staff go out of their way, daily, to explain the game, their products, and the reason for their decisions. They do it every day. Out of their own time. Every. Single. Day.
They have done it for more than ten years. It is a hallmark of their relationship with their customers. It is exemplary.
And to be clear, Lone Wolf Dev is normally very good at it, too. My guess is that LWD was concerned about promising a release date in an environment full of uncertainty which can just antagonize the hell out of people. I get that, totally.
Problem is, such silence (however well intended) allows people to make up their own views, those get repeated and suddenly somebody else is writing your news releases for you. Right or wrong, it affects your goodwill so you need to get ahead of it.
To be fair I felt the staff was going out of there way to cheat me on the subscription shipping so our interactions may not have had the same tone as your interactions :-p.
As far as Lone Wolf, They did give a release date for Starfinder, end of the month as per a forum post in the Starfinder thread.
Now I see a HLO thread indicating a release of 2-3-4 months from now, with a subscription fee attached.
So I've just gone from hoping to make characters for the game system I've dumped close to $200 over in the last week to wondering if I'm ever going to play i,t because rather then let his customers know whats going on, he's decided to keep it all a big secret so he could do some big PR reveal at Gencon to an insignificant number of backers and then instead of addressing peoples justifiable concerns, based on comments HIS EMPLOYEES made to people at Gencon, complained about how tired he was and essentially told us we aren't important enough to him and his company to address any of our concerns
That's pretty disrespectful.
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It certainly was not. Paizo staff go out of their way, daily, to explain the game, their products, and the reason for their decisions. They do it every day. Out of their own time. Every. Single. Day.
They have done it for more than ten years. It is a hallmark of their relationship with their customers. It is exemplary.
Such a valid and important point that I wanted to repeat your quote.
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To be fair I felt the staff was going out of there way to cheat me on the subscription shipping so our interactions may not have had the same tone as your interactions :-p.
Well, I can't comment on that. But I do know that one unhappy commercial interaction does not a brand - or overall corporate goodwill - make.
I would underscore the importance of this by pointing out that when WotC licensed Dungeon and Dragon to the then brand new Paizo in 2002, WotC thought they were just licensing the right to publish a magazine for five years. They didn't think they were licensing their brand's goodwill (because you don't often get that back).
And maybe they were just licensing two magazines. But the problem was that they took steps to insulate their creative staff from interacting with customers online during this period, too. Add to that the fact that key creative talents who developed D&D 3.0 and 3.5 left the company and WotC staff suffered a creeping loss of legitimacy in the eyes of their customers. It wasn't terminal, but it was real.
The real problem was that while WotC was "managing" its staff and discouraging online interactions, Paizo was not. And at the same time, they were writing columns, monthly, and answering reader mail in the magazines. They became the spokespeople for the D&D brand, by default.
So after five years, it was Erik Mona and James Jacobs who had become the people who were most visible in being the people behind D&D. Whether that was true in substance or not, that didn't matter. They had powerful credibility and goodwill.
Layer that on top of the OGL, subscriber lists and a vision -- and very few subscribers asked for their money back. They wanted more; they bet on Pathfinder AP. And so here we are. *gestures around*
Do not underestimate the importance of interacting with customers online in a positive way, or sell Paizo short in how well they do it.
It is literally why we are communicating on this Message Board over a decade later. They do it exceptionally well.
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I wouldn't mind paying a subscription at all if it wasn't for the fact that it could possibly be a online-only thing now. While I see why they're doing it, it defeats the purpose for many people out there who use the program in less-than-ideal locations. If you're not at your house or a friends that has a good wifi connection, this program is now useless and you're wasting money using it. Games stores don't always offer free-wifi to its visitors, and conventions or other public locations have either horrible connections or none at all.
It doesn't seem like a smart move for them to switch to an online only system, at least from my perspective as Herolab user. Depending on what information comes out, I can't promise I'll continue to use the software.
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Going to an on-line sub-based business model is a great decision from the standpoint of cashflow and revenue stream.
However, it's a terrible decision from a customer service/fulfillment point of view.
in the long run, I think it's going to hurt customers and will be a bad decision overall.
-Skeld
Compromise being a monthly sub and access to all of the datapacks Herolab has to offer? Edit: And making it available offline and online?
Shame... I was planning on picking up Hero Lab with the release of Starfinder but if they're going for a subscription model without even a guarantee that it'll remain fixed price I guess I'll have to look elsewhere. If they ensure that you get access to all the extra packs for a game once you've bought it and that there's a limited offline use such as being able to use characters in play offline then maybe I'll still give it a go but I must admit this is highly disappointing and frustrating since everyone always rants and raves about how amazing HeroLab is and I was specifically waiting for Starfinder to become available...
That's the killer part. Herolab is super amazing. My whole group uses it and I'd swear by it for Pathfinder and how it is at this moment.
So after five years, it was Erik Mona and James Jacobs who had become the people who were most visible in being the people behind D&D. Whether that was true in substance or not, that didn't matter. They had powerful credibility and goodwill.
Layer that on top of the OGL, subscriber lists and a vision -- and very few subscribers asked for their money back. They wanted more; they bet on Pathfinder AP. And so here we are. *gestures around*
Do not underestimate the importance of interacting with customers online in a positive way, or sell Paizo short in how well they do it.
Even though I don't like how the message boards look, they work sufficiently to contact the crew at Paizo. I like how you can talk to the crew, it shows that they care. You given me a lot to think about how a new startup should have it's online presence.
Thank you.
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"Unfortunately, the answers I promised will be a little late.
I'm extremely sick after getting home from GenCon - ah, the misery of "Con Crud". I'm in no state to write up anything even marginally coherent right now, let alone clearly articulate the details of what we're doing for HLOnline (and, in some cases, why). And there's also no way I'll be able to competently answer any of the follow-up questions that I'm certain will arise. So please accept my apologies on the delay, and I'll get everyone answers as soon as I'm clear-headed enough to do a decent job of it.
Thanks for your patience! "
More delays.
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So, I've been a pretty consistent supporter of HeroLab (I know that I probably have over $3-400 worth of Pathfinder / Mutants and Masterminds stuff that I purchased for it). As long as the stuff that I purchased still works? And I can go in add new things using the Authoring Kit? I'll be Okay.
But if their way forward is online only and Subscription based? They've lost me as a customer. No harm no foul. I understand their bottom line is important to them but mine is to me as well and as a customer, I have to right to beat feet away from a company when their interests no longer connect with my own.
Looks like I'll be making my Starfinder PC's and NPC's the old fashioned way...
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I guess I will have to wait for some clarity about how it will work. I don't play with digital character sheets. I did try, but found myself going back to printing out the character sheet anyway. We have one player who plays digital, but her i-pad battery does not last through the whole session. This will just make that problem bigger. If you can't print it out, I will be a big fat NO.
If you can, it will depend on how the licensing works, we have a family of four, and currently can have four computers on the one license...yay...I own all the PF data sets, so am heavily invested in Herolab, but not getting the warm and fuzzy feeling about on-line only.
I agree with the above posts about a subscription Starfinder Hero lab. I for one do not want to be paying for something I can not use offline. I want to be able to print out my character sheet, not leave my iPad for the GM so he can go over my character when he wants to or for when I game in a locations with no wifi.
I love Hero Lab as a stand alone product. I have at least $300 invested in it for Pathfinder. If Starfinder goes online only subscription and no access to your character when you stop paying, then Lone Wolf Development will not have access to my money for any products ever again.
I have almost everything Pathfinder on Hero Lab. I already hate that I have to have people sharing computers because we can only have so many copies (this is literally the only software I know does this in non-company sales) and now you want to add a regular subscription?
If this is really going to be like this, I will be looking at PCGen, because when I compare free vs. limited account that's paid and online only, Hero Lab is looking really crappy.
I hope that rest from Gencon makes them feel like doing this in a better way that does not alienate the customer base that already supports them.
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I guess I will have to wait for some clarity about how it will work. I don't play with digital character sheets. I did try, but found myself going back to printing out the character sheet anyway. We have one player who plays digital, but her i-pad battery does not last through the whole session. This will just make that problem bigger. If you can't print it out, I will be a big fat NO.
If you can, it will depend on how the licensing works, we have a family of four, and currently can have four computers on the one license...yay...I own all the PF data sets, so am heavily invested in Herolab, but not getting the warm and fuzzy feeling about on-line only.
I'm fairly certain you'll be able to print out character sheets! Don't worry about that. NOTHING has been said to suggest that this will not happen.
If you're a sheet printing, and have WiFi at home, then this should be a fine solution (if you're ok with the extra $24 a year)
MOST of the time online will be fine with me... when making characters, at home games, etc. My only concern is at a con. If the sheet functions fine without a connection and you don't accidentally navigate off and can't get back to your working sheet... then online is also ok (though not being able to level between two back-to-back sessions would be too bad).
My biggest concern is the subscription price. If they make a guarantee that the subscription price I sign up with won't be changed and it's not an outrageous cost then I'll probably still pick up the service, but I'm a student and I need to budget carefully, so a subscription price that could change at any moment or is too expensive is too big of a risk for me to get involved with. I just hope we get a full, proper statement soon so I know whether or not this is a product I need to be following or if I can drop it and look for other alternatives.
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I see lots of people reading into what "online" means.
I don't know what they have planned but a modern browser based app can be very sophisticated with offline access and data caching when wifi is down, it can even run standalone and look like a standard desktop app as far as the user is concerned.
I would hold off jumping to conclusions about how it'll perform in offline scenarios, the architecture could range from purely online data storage with all logic in the client to the exact opposite.
So don't fret over hypotheticals
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If they do go online-only, they'll lose me as a customer. Much as I like the idea of a cross-platform version, I don't have access to wi-fi in every location I use herolab. That, and I'm tired of racking up nickel-and-dime subscription services. $1 a month here, $2 a month there, before long you're paying $100 a month in some cases for crap you forgot you signed up for. :)
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I agree. I'm just not interested in a subscription service. I can't really do much with D&D 4E anymore because their tools were subscription only. If I get a game, I want it to stay got.
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Buying the right to access data sets only stored on HL servers and then paying a subscription to use the data sets I've bought and not being able to access those sets, character creation, encounter creation, etc. when I don't have access to the internet or there servers are down is a no-go for me.
Even if HL online works the same, data sets reside on my system and can be used in an offline mode but require a subscription on top of the set purchase price (unless sets are discounted) WITHOUT new functionality requiring online only would be a real hard sell.
Paying more for a less useful option to make it easier on LWD isn't something I see going over well with users.
I have Hero Lab and have multiple copies that I use on multiple PC’s. Our gaming group of seven all use HL as well with multiple data sets purchased in the group. We as a group are looking forward to their implementation of Starfinder and future Pathfinder products.
However, the silence on what HLO is and what it is not is deafening. I know they have announced some of the intended features, but so far, nothing is concrete, as we not even have anything more than a screen shot or two and some supposed features. I am concerned about the subscription service and in order from me to migrate, my current HL to HLO the subscription, HLO has to offer more than multiple form factors, i.e. tables, phone, etc... They need to offer more than just an application on-line.
For example, I use Office 365 Home and while that is a subscription service over the traditional office purchase it offers more than just office. It offers five TBs of storage though OneDrive, use Office on up to five PCs with five different users and I always stay on the current version of Office. That is worth the subscription price.
So far, they have not offered that extra “thing” to make me want to move from the current HL to HLO. I will be patient in waiting for a formal announcement, but my patience is not forever. Their silence can only go on for so long as others up-thread have said. Lone Wolf needs to get out in front of this sooner rather than later.
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The "thing" they may be offering, which is what has me worried, is that HLO may be the only way to access Starfinder.
How hard would if have been to confirm Starfinder will be released around the end of the month as per there original announcement using the standalone HL software we currently have and follow up months later as the first HLO offering.
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The "thing" they may be offering, which is what has me worried, is that HLO may be the only way to access Starfinder.
How hard would if have been to confirm Starfinder will be released around the end of the month as per there original announcement using the standalone HL software we currently have and follow up months later as the first HLO offering.
I honestly hope they're paying attention to this thread, because I really appreciate HL and have been using it for years.
But if it goes to 'On-line' only, I'll have to step back to the Age of Enlightenment. I'm still using a flip phone and prefer it that way.
I can't afford to buy a 300+$ phone plus a 600$/year data-phone plan plus any other incidentals in ADDITION to Starfinder Lab. That's definitely a non-starter.
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I don't actually have a phone.
I have a Samsung Galaxy S5 Hand Held Entertainment system that can make phone calls.
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I honestly hope they're paying attention to this thread, because I really appreciate HL and have been using it for years.
I'm pretty sure they aren't. They are probably gauging the temperature with reference to their own forums, where few go anyway - and where - it being theirs, people are less inclined to vent.
The lack of significant posting on their forums and kicking at the door is leading Rob to think that the demand for info is not really there, that somehow the infor released at Gencon has filtered its way to all of their customers, and that they have more time to do what ever whatever it is that they are doing, or waiting for.
To be honest, I am having a hard time explaining The Sound of Silence. This is really not a good look.
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I honestly hope they're paying attention to this thread, because I really appreciate HL and have been using it for years.
I'm pretty sure they aren't.
Hi Robert. If you happen to be going, we're planning on running a bunch of Starfinder at Fan Expo this week.
I like Hero Lab but, like others, am very, very sceptical of a subscription model.
Well, at least PCGen will have a Starfinder sheet "Soon". If its any good and I haven't heard something that I like from Herolab I'll almost certainly switch to PCGen and not ever get around to switching back.
Hopefully both sides realize that they're pretty much in a race :-)
