Does Shaman Spirit Magic qualify for Dragon Disciple requirements with Scaled Disciple?


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I want to play a Shaman/Dragon Disciple

Does the spontaneous casting offered by the Shaman Spirit Magic class feature count as "Ability to cast 1st-level divine spells without preparation"?


Yes.


I'd honestly err toward no for much the same reason as a Cleric being able to spontaneously cast cure/inflict light wounds doesn't satisfy the prerequisite.

Getting one (eventually two with wandering spirit) specific spontaneous spell whether by class or race to root around the requirements strikes me as against the spirit of the various FAQs that were made to stop similar things.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Divine or arcane?

That phrase has to do with you have a class given spell list with spell slots, not a handful of specific spontaneously cast spells.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The reason I think it may work is because the Spirit Magic class feature behaves identically to a spontaneous caster, only with a very limited list of spells.

By level 4 through Wandering Spirit, the Shaman would have access to two spells that they could use with their first level spontaneous spell slots. This is the same number of 1st level spells known by a 1st level sorcerer, who would qualify for Dragon Disciple.

These spontaneous spell slots are not worded like cleric spontaneous casting at all, and they are not spell like abilities.

Silver Crusade

Am I missing something? Shaman are divine whereas dragon disciple requires the ability to cast arcane spells.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Am I missing something? Shaman are divine whereas dragon disciple requires the ability to cast arcane spells.

A kobold with the Scaled Disciple feat can use Divine spontaneous casting to qualify for Dragon Disciple levels.

Silver Crusade

Ventnor wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Am I missing something? Shaman are divine whereas dragon disciple requires the ability to cast arcane spells.
A kobold with the Scaled Disciple feat can use Divine spontaneous casting to qualify for Dragon Disciple levels.

Oh ok. I just read OP's post and was thoroughly confused.


Sorry, a shaman is a prepared spell caster, not a spontaneous one, even a Kobold scaled disciple does not change that, and the spirits do not constitute an actual spontaneous casting ability.
Make an Oracle scaled disciple, that might work.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

If you have spontaneous spell slots based on your level, it works.
If you don't have a spell slot chart, it doesn't.


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The Class Feature the OP talks about:
Spirit Magic

A shaman can spontaneously cast a limited number of spells per day beyond those she prepared ahead of time. She has one spell slot per day of each shaman spell level she can cast, not including orisons. She can choose these spells from the list of spells granted by her spirits (see the spirit class feature and the wandering spirit class feature) at the time she casts them. She can enhance these spells using any metamagic feat that she knows, using up a higher-level spell slot as required by the feat and increasing the time to cast the spell (see Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats).

So yes, with Scaled Disciple, a Shaman can be a Dragon Disciple.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ok so sounds like she has spontaneous spell slots, so good.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Follow up question:

Dragon Disciple gives bonus spells, and Scaled Disciple says:

"Add the bonus spells gained from the blood of dragons ability to those you can cast as divine spells."

Would that add those spells to the Shaman's general spell list, or act as extra spontaneous spirit magic spells known?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

You normal shaman list.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

It has came to my attention the last three posts by me may have been less than clear.

I've never played a shaman, so I never knew if they were spontaneous or prepared until now.

Either I was confused back then, had a different opinion back then, or was misunderstood back then. I'm not sure.

What I meant by "If you have spontaneous spell slots based on your level, it works." was if they have a spells known chart like Sorcerer:
Table: Sorcerer Spells Known

Then you are a spontaneous caster of the highest level the chart says you can cast.

If you don't have a spells known, then you not a spontaneous cast even if you (like all prepared) have some spontaneous casting method (Cleric's cures, Druid's SNA, Shaman's Spirit Magic).


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Risner wrote:

It has came to my attention the last three posts by me may have been less than clear.

I've never played a shaman, so I never knew if they were spontaneous or prepared until now.

Either I was confused back then, had a different opinion back then, or was misunderstood back then. I'm not sure.

What I meant by "If you have spontaneous spell slots based on your level, it works." was if they have a spells known chart like Sorcerer:
Table: Sorcerer Spells Known

Then you are a spontaneous caster of the highest level the chart says you can cast.

If you don't have a spells known, then you not a spontaneous cast even if you (like all prepared) have some spontaneous casting method (Cleric's cures, Druid's SNA, Shaman's Spirit Magic).

I'd really like you to rethink lumping Cleric's cures, Druid's SNA and Shaman Spirit Magic together.

Look at them and their descriptions:

Cleric:
A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that she did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison or domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name).

Druid:
A druid can channel stored spell energy into summoning spells that she hasn’t prepared ahead of time. She can “lose” a prepared spell in order to cast any summon nature’s ally spell of the same level or lower.

Shaman:
A shaman can spontaneously cast a limited number of spells per day beyond those she prepared ahead of time. She has one spell slot per day of each shaman spell level she can cast, not including orisons. She can choose these spells from the list of spells granted by her spirits (see the spirit class feature and the wandering spirit class feature) at the time she casts them. She can enhance these spells using any metamagic feat that she knows, using up a higher-level spell slot as required by the feat and increasing the time to cast the spell (see Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats).

The shaman gets real spell slots, a real spells known list (albeit dependent on their spirits), can use those spell slots in the exact same manner as any true spontaneous caster (metamagic etc.) and gets more slots as she levels.

It is much more accurate to compare Shaman Spirit Magic with Cleric Domain Spells, the only difference really being Spirit Magic grants a spontaneous slot rather than a bonus prepared slot.

The spell like ability FAQ doesn't cover this case, because these are 100% not spell like abilities but rather whole, complete spontaneous spell slots.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Here is an old post where SKR walks through some magus lines. He touches on Cleric Spontaneous Casting

In any event, this is definitely an Ask your GM question.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thank you for the link, but it doesn't seem to apply to this thread.

My GM is in agreement with me that it does count as being able to spontaneously cast 1st level divine spells, but I come to the forums for discussion and consensus.

Another way to look at it: Would a hypothetical class whose only spellcasting ability was an exact replica of Spirit Magic, meaning one spontaneous spell slot every two levels, qualify as being able to cast 1st level divine spells without preparation? If they would, then why wouldn't Shaman who has that plus prepared spells?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

They would because that’s in their “Spells” ability. Shaman spells ability is different so it’s not the intent.
The entire game is written conversational style. So things are not like puzzles to combo out. If you found a combo, it’s probably not the correct interpretation of the rule. This is common because other games, like Magic, are designed around combos. So I get why it is frequently a go to interpretation.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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If you GM agrees, you are good to go. You don’t need consensus, approval, or permission of any other person.


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James Risner wrote:

They would because that’s in their “Spells” ability. Shaman spells ability is different so it’s not the intent.

The entire game is written conversational style. So things are not like puzzles to combo out. If you found a combo, it’s probably not the correct interpretation of the rule. This is common because other games, like Magic, are designed around combos. So I get why it is frequently a go to interpretation.

I mean, the Shaman ability describes it as casting spells spontaneously. Unless there are two different meanings of the words spontaneous, I'd say that the dragon disciple thing probably words.

The Exchange

And don't forget the two parent classes of the Shaman are Witch and Oracle. Prepared and spontaneous so it comes into play at level 4 looks allright for me.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Risner wrote:

They would because that’s in their “Spells” ability. Shaman spells ability is different so it’s not the intent.

The entire game is written conversational style. So things are not like puzzles to combo out. If you found a combo, it’s probably not the correct interpretation of the rule. This is common because other games, like Magic, are designed around combos. So I get why it is frequently a go to interpretation.

I think that's a strange interpretation that you'd need to actively want to be true in order to come to. A conversational reading would result in "Oh look, I can cast these divine spells spontaneously with these spell slots my class gave me, that should count for a feat/prestige class requirement to be able to cast divine spells without preparation"

I'm not sure from what source you're getting the idea that "the ability to cast 1st level spells without preparation" must only be from a class's main Spells entry. As far as I can tell nothing like that has been said and it doesn't make intuitive sense to jump to that conclusion in this case.

Maybe the main Spells feature classifies you as either spontaneous or prepared in general in the case of a requirement to "be a spontaneous caster" but that's a pretty different requirement.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I take the “able to cast” language to mean:
Whatever the primary method of casting is.

But you have a point, at a certain level you do get real spontaneous with spell slots. It’s just complicate to apply the benefit of the ability requiring spontaneous to just those spell slots. The problem is that Dragon Disciple can’t advance just the spontaneous slots. Well, if your GM is very crafty maybe. By advancing your level for just the spontaneous ability but not the standard spells?
Say like shaman 6 has CL 6 for spells and 6 for spirit magic. Then add 10 levels of DD, gets you still 6 for spells but 6+10-lost levels for spirit magic?

The key complexity is is “+1 casting level” interacts with the spells class features, not the thing that gave you the prerequisite. If they are not the same, that’s against intent/design/conversational reading.

If it’s something with a “spontaneous” prerequisite just “adds a spell known and to your class spell list” then that reads as it does add to just spirit magic.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Risner wrote:

I take the “able to cast” language to mean:

Whatever the primary method of casting is.

But you have a point, at a certain level you do get real spontaneous with spell slots. It’s just complicate to apply the benefit of the ability requiring spontaneous to just those spell slots. The problem is that Dragon Disciple can’t advance just the spontaneous slots. Well, if your GM is very crafty maybe. By advancing your level for just the spontaneous ability but not the standard spells?
Say like shaman 6 has CL 6 for spells and 6 for spirit magic. Then add 10 levels of DD, gets you still 6 for spells but 6+10-lost levels for spirit magic?

The key complexity is is “+1 casting level” interacts with the spells class features, not the thing that gave you the prerequisite. If they are not the same, that’s against intent/design/conversational reading.

If it’s something with a “spontaneous” prerequisite just “adds a spell known and to your class spell list” then that reads as it does add to just spirit magic.

You might have a point, but can't a Sorcerer1/WizardX choose to advance their Wizard casting with Dragon Disciple?

The spontaneous casting is a requirement to enter the class, and doesn't necessarily decide which class gets the spell progression. That's decided by:

"At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class."

Changing [arcane] to [divine] means I can choose Shaman to progress, since this doesn't specify that it needs to be a spontaneous caster.

Edit: I just remembered that Scaled Disciple calls out "you may increase spellcasting in your spontaneous divine class as you progress in dragon disciple levels". So that is a difference.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Quote:
You might have a point, but can't a Sorcerer1/WizardX choose to advance their Wizard casting with Dragon Disciple?

Again, that is disconnecting the prereq from the benefit. That isn't likely the intent. We don't have an example of that clarified, but I'm confident if we did the clarification is that the prereq is something you need for the class and therefore any class features should go to what fulfilled the prereqs.

Quote:
"At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class."

We do have a SKR developer post about this. All classes are written single classed. To take levels in Dragon Disciple, you need spontaneous. So the class is written from a single class point of view. You only have sorcerer levels. For the purpose of this "level in an arcane spellcasting class" translates to "level in sorcerer".


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There doesn’t seem to be an official text about what a spontaneous caster is or isn’t. And there is no text saying that being spontaneous is mutually exclusive with being prepared. But the default example for spontaneous casting and metamagic given in the feats section is a cleric, instead of something like a sorcerer.


I’m going to have to say the shaman doesn’t count, due to the slippery slope argument. To my knowledge every prepared caster has some access to spontaneous casting: cure spells, arcane bond, summon nature’s ally. If the shaman counts as a spontaneous caster, then the distinction is moot.
Assuming the separation between prepared and spontaneous is meaningful, we must conclude spirit magic doesn’t give access to dragon disciple.


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If you go back to 3.0, it appears the cleric was believed to be a spontaneous caster. Because the dragon dilsciple specifies, “Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.” But if the cleric didn’t count, there was no other class to qualify as casting divine spells without preparation, at that time. And I don’t remember them ever adding one but I drifted away after the first few years.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kaboogy wrote:

I’m going to have to say the shaman doesn’t count, due to the slippery slope argument. To my knowledge every prepared caster has some access to spontaneous casting: cure spells, arcane bond, summon nature’s ally. If the shaman counts as a spontaneous caster, then the distinction is moot.

Assuming the separation between prepared and spontaneous is meaningful, we must conclude spirit magic doesn’t give access to dragon disciple.

Still, though, none of those other class features you mentioned actually give whole, complete spell slots. Spirit Magic even specifically calls out the spontaneous casting rules which none of the others do.

I think there's a pretty good case for differentiating Spirit Magic, and avoiding the slippery slope.

I am curious what the designers think about the prepared and spontaneous distinction though.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Melkiador wrote:
If you go back to 3.0, it appears the cleric was believed to be a spontaneous caster. Because the dragon dilsciple specifies, “Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.” But if the cleric didn’t count, there was no other class to qualify as casting divine spells without preparation, at that time. And I don’t remember them ever adding one but I drifted away after the first few years.

Huh?

Cleric is divine. DD needs arcane. Why was it confused with cleric in 3.0 exactly?


James Risner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
If you go back to 3.0, it appears the cleric was believed to be a spontaneous caster. Because the dragon dilsciple specifies, “Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.” But if the cleric didn’t count, there was no other class to qualify as casting divine spells without preparation, at that time. And I don’t remember them ever adding one but I drifted away after the first few years.

Huh?

Cleric is divine. DD needs arcane. Why was it confused with cleric in 3.0 exactly?

The point is that there was no reason to specify an arcane class, unless there was a divine class that would have otherwise qualified.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Melkiador wrote:
The point is that there was no reason to specify an arcane class, unless there was a divine class that would have otherwise qualified.

Other than to exclude divine classes from joining? Also favored soul was a divine spontaneous class in 3.5.


James Risner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
The point is that there was no reason to specify an arcane class, unless there was a divine class that would have otherwise qualified.
Other than to exclude divine classes from joining? Also favored soul was a divine spontaneous class in 3.5.

But the dragon disciple was way older. It was in the DMG. At that point, the only other spontaneous divine casters would have been the cleric and druid.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Cleric Druid are not spontaneous.
Again I believe it was to deliberately tie dragon to arcane and spontaneous.

There doesn’t have to be a divine spontaneous caster for them to choose to restrict.


Cleric and Druid are certainly spontaneous. The cleric is given as the example class for spontaneous metamagic feats.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I seriously have no idea what you are talking about. Cleric and Druid are prepared.


PRD Feats wrote:
Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats: A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell, or a druid spontaneously casting a summon nature's ally spell, can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a standard action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast. The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which can be cast as a swift action.

Here we see both clerics and druids specified as casting spells spontaneously. Now here's a real kick in the pants. Read the entry for sorcerer. It is never once mentioned to be spontaneous.

PRD Sorcerer

Or even more interesting, if you go to the magic chapter. Clerics and druids are again specified as spontaneous casters, but strangely the sorcerer is again ignored.

Magic Link

So there is actually much more evidence of clerics and druids being spontaneous casters than sorcerers.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Melkiador wrote:
So there is actually much more evidence of clerics and druids being spontaneous casters than sorcerers.

I now see your point. But I still don't agree with it.

Just because you see a specific allowance for metamagic application to Cleric/Druid spontaneous ability doesn't make them spontaneous casters nor answer this question in this thread.


Did you not read the links?

CRB Magic Chapter wrote:

Spontaneous Casting of Cure and Inflict Spells: A good cleric (or a cleric of a good deity) can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a bonus domain spell. An evil cleric (or a cleric of an evil deity) can spontaneously cast an inflict spell in place of a prepared spell (that is not a domain spell) of the same level or higher. Each neutral cleric of a neutral deity spontaneously casts either cure spells like a good cleric or inflict spells like an evil one, depending on which option the player chooses when creating the character. The divine energy of the spell that the cure or inflict spell substitutes for is converted into the cure or inflict spell as if that spell had been prepared all along.

Spontaneous Casting of Summon Nature's Ally Spells: A druid can spontaneously cast summon nature's ally in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher. The divine energy of the spell that the summon spell substitutes for is converted as if that spell had been prepared all along.

So, again we see the cleric and druid called out as being spontaneous. I don't really see how the text could be more explicit that clerics and druids are spontaneous casters who cast spells spontaneously.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Melkiador wrote:
Did you not read the links?

Read them.

Again, being able to spontaneously cast some spells doesn't make you a spontaneous caster. Clerics and Druids are prepared casters.


What says you can't be both a prepared caster and a spontaneous caster? It's ridiculous to say that someone who casts spontaneously isn't a spontaneous caster. Especially when there is absolutely 0 rules support to have that opinion.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Here are a few of the only things I've seen that makes the clear distinction:

FAQ about the mystic theurge:

"If one of the theurge's spellcasting classes is a non-spontaneous spellcaster (such as a cleric) and the other is a spontaneous caster (such as a sorcerer), he can only spontaneously cast spells from the non-spontaneous class that he actually prepared that day (whether or not he has cast those prepared spells)."

FAQ about Heighten Spell:

"If you are a non-spontaneous caster (such as a cleric or wizard) who wants to prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot, there is no reason not to use Heighten Spell on that spell"

Based on these alone, it would be easy to say that Paizo doesn't consider Cleric a spontaneous caster. Which I guess is distinct from being able to do something spontaneously like Cleric's cure conversion.

That being said, Shaman is murky because they don't just have the ability to spontaneously do something, they get explicit spontaneous spell slots. Is that enough to make the jump to counting as a a Spontaneous Caster? That's what I'd like to know.

Silver Crusade

Why on earth would you play a kobold?


I'd rule no, because it's not freeform spellcasting from a class list like the rules assume you are capable of doing, it's a specific subset that is based on your wandering spirit choices.

It's not much different than how SLAs once let you meet spellcasting requirements, but don't anymore because it requires a class feature casting from a class list.

The spontaneous spellcasting provided here does not fulfill that criteria.


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Why wouldn't it? Sure, a Shaman's spontaneous spellcasting list is limited based off of their Spirit choices, but all spontaneous spellcasters cast their spells off of a limited spell list.


Melkiador wrote:
What says you can't be both a prepared caster and a spontaneous caster? It's ridiculous to say that someone who casts spontaneously isn't a spontaneous caster. Especially when there is absolutely 0 rules support to have that opinion.

So you would allow a shaman to qualify for Mystic Theurge on its own?


Ventnor wrote:
Why wouldn't it? Sure, a Shaman's spontaneous spellcasting list is limited based off of their Spirit choices, but all spontaneous spellcasters cast their spells off of a limited spell list.

Being limited isn't the issue, it's that it isn't tied to your spellcasting gained from your class list whatsoever, it's a completely different mechanic than what the game assumes you're checking on for the purposes of qualifying, hence my bringing up of the overturned SLA FAQ.

@ Talonhawke: Even if they could, Mystic Theurge on a single-classed character with one type of spellcasting is pointless. Sorcerer/Bloodragers with Draconic Bloodlines taking levels in Dragon Disciple better explains that irrelevant issue.


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Melkiador wrote:
What says you can't be both a prepared caster and a spontaneous caster? It's ridiculous to say that someone who casts spontaneously isn't a spontaneous caster. Especially when there is absolutely 0 rules support to have that opinion.

Arcanist says hi.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


It's not much different than how SLAs once let you meet spellcasting requirements, but don't anymore because it requires a class feature casting from a class list.

I think that's a pretty bold claim. Applying a ruling specifically talking about Spell Like Abilities to someone casting real, honest to goodness spells using spell slots and from an admittedly small list doesn't inspire too much confidence.

Do you have a source for the requirement of casting from a class list?

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