You answered your own question with the Cleric FAQs. Would you let a Cleric qualify with his Domain spells, if he has 2 Domains and can cast his slot from either domain, as he chooses, on the spot, like every other Spontaneous spellcaster can do with their spell list?
Because based on the FAQ answers, the result is "No."
You answered your own question with the Cleric FAQs. Would you let a Cleric qualify with his Domain spells, if he has 2 Domains and can cast his slot from either domain, as he chooses, on the spot, like every other Spontaneous spellcaster can do with their spell list?
Because based on the FAQ answers, the result is "No."
Can you walk me through your reasoning here? Cleric Domain spells are not selected at the time of casting, they must be prepared in advance. If Domain spells were worded like Spirit Magic (which again, specifically references spontaneous casting), I would have no problem with them qualifying. Since Spirit Magic is literally just the spontaneous version of Domain Spells.
I don't know what FAQ you're referring to when you say that.
You linked two FAQs that state Clerics aren't spontaneous spellcasters.
The idea that their spontaneous spellcasting of a limited selection of spells doesn't qualify them for spontaneous spellcasting (which I assumed Domains fell under, my mistake), something similar that Shamans get with their wandering spirit spells, should be an indicator that the spellcasting has to be a part of the base feature.
This same question could be posed if, for example, an Arcanist who took Bloodline Development (Draconic) wanted to take levels in Dragon Disciple.
Well, I already knew Cleric's didn't count with their obviously special case of being able to transorm some of their prepared spells into cure spells. A literal interpretation might be that they can't spontaneously cast a cure spell without first preparing a regular spell so they don't meet the "without preparation" criteria. That does nothing to answer the question of: does having spontaneous spell slots make you a spontaneous caster?
The original question was even less restrictive, I wanted to know if being able to cast a spontaneous spell from a spontaneous spell slot counted for the requirement of being able to cast spells without preparation, being considered a spontaneous caster was a separate issue.
As for your arcanist issue: if that feature gave them spontaneous spell slots I don't see why it wouldn't work. Also, thematically it makes perfect sense but that's besides the point.
I'm getting a bit tired of people trying to equate Spirit Magic with SLAs.
There's nothing in the rules that tells us whether an Arcanist is either Prepared or Spontaneous, and as such effects that relate to whether they count as one or the other (see Dragon Disciple) are ambiguous when it comes to that class. Even if it's thematic, there's nothing definitive to say that they are Spontaneous, and as such the conservative ruling would be to say they don't count as either one.
On that point, it's not necessarily about equating them to SLAs. The point is that Spirit Magic gives spells not directly tied to acquiring spells from gaining levels in a spellcasting class, they're a feature separate from the assumed "Spells" feature, and as such shouldn't be treated as the "Spells" feature for the purposes of fulfilling requirements that depend on spellcasting.
SLAs are simply brought up as being the most common example of acquiring spells not tied to spellcasting acquired via an appropriate class, and having numerous FAQs stating spellcasting that's not spontaneous from the "Spells" class feature isn't to be treated as a spontaneous spellcaster supports this ideal.
There's nothing in the rules that tells us whether an Arcanist is either Prepared or Spontaneous, and as such effects that relate to whether they count as one or the other (see Dragon Disciple) are ambiguous when it comes to that class. Even if it's thematic, there's nothing definitive to say that they are Spontaneous, and as such the conservative ruling would be to say they don't count as either one.
Actually, Arcanists definitively do not meet the prerequisite for Dragon Disciple because they prepare their spells.
Requirement: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.
Arcanist: An arcanist casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. An arcanist must prepare her spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, her spells are not expended when they’re cast.
The general consensus around arcanists is that they're prepared casters with the special feature that they're not consumed on use. Which, by the way, is pretty similar to the way 0th level wizard spells work. So unless they have a way to obtain spontaneous spell slots I don't see how they're going to cast spells without preparation.
What says you can't be both a prepared caster and a spontaneous caster? It's ridiculous to say that someone who casts spontaneously isn't a spontaneous caster. Especially when there is absolutely 0 rules support to have that opinion.So you would allow a shaman to qualify for Mystic Theurge on its own?Mystic Theurge requires both Divine and Arcane spell casting.
Shaman is a only a Divine Caster.
Even though it has both Prepared and Spontaneous Spellcasting
This whole thread is about it qualifying for a prestige class that requires Arcane spellcasting so the question still stands.
This whole thread is about it qualifying for a prestige class that requires Arcane spellcasting so the question still stands.
Using Scaled Disciple, which allows spontaneous divine casting to stand in for spontaneous arcane casting for Dragon Disciple only.
How the hell did I miss that?
Now my question is do any of the draconic feats for kobolds stack/interact with the claws/bite/breath weapon from DD or is it best to just take one or the other?
On that point, it's not necessarily about equating them to SLAs. The point is that Spirit Magic gives spells not directly tied to acquiring spells from gaining levels in a spellcasting class, they're a feature separate from the assumed "Spells" feature, and as such shouldn't be treated as the "Spells" feature for the purposes of fulfilling requirements that depend on spellcasting.
SLAs are simply brought up as being the most common example of acquiring spells not tied to spellcasting acquired via an appropriate class, and having numerous FAQs stating spellcasting that's not spontaneous from the "Spells" class feature isn't to be treated as a spontaneous spellcaster supports this ideal.
Also, a couple points:
1. Spirit Magic progression is explicitly tied to your regular spells progression, if that helps any. Spirit Magic: "She has one spell slot per day of each shaman spell level she can cast, not including orisons."
2. There are multiple developer posts that say SLAs are NOT spells, they're just similar to spells. So acquiring an SLA can't be considered an example of acquiring a spell period, so it doesn't follow to go further and come to the conclusion that the reason they don't count is because they didn't come from your Spells class feature.
Now my question is do any of the draconic feats for kobolds stack/interact with the claws/bite/breath weapon from DD or is it best to just take one or the other?
From what I've seen, none of the DD stuff stacks with the kobold stuff. My build so far (which is till level 1 in Carrion Crown) is planned as follows:
Seorsylth has paid a great deal of money for unique kobold eggs, and has searched far and wide for kobolds exhibiting uncommon features such as metallic scales or divine blood. She acts as parent to adopted eggs and village elder to kobold families, providing guidance, protection and teaching, especially with regard to the worship of Apsu. Great care is taken to minimize the expression of the vicious, evil and cruel nature most kobolds are prone to, and every kobold under Seorsylth’s protection is given careful instruction.
Deebu’s silver scales mark him as one of only a handful of his clansmen who exhibit a hint of divine heritage. He considered himself an excellent communicator, and during his 30 year stay under the tutelage of Seorsylth, he felt that all the causes of good might be achieved if only people would talk with one another. This view may have been formed by his ability to solve disputes among his peers with diplomacy, as well as his skill with languages. He was eager to to go on a quest to bring relief and happiness to surface dwellers far and wide. His ability to briefly transform into a larger, silver scaled lizardfolk has always been somewhat of a novelty. Not particularly useful but admirable to his peers.
Four years later that view has suffered quite a bit. He’s regularly attacked or fled from while travelling, and it took three settlements before he found a way to talk to someone before being run out of town. He started to form a better understanding of the kobolds he was told about but never fully internalized. Now he travels under the cover of darkness, using his darkvision to avoid other travelers or dangers.
DEEBU
Angel-blooded Aasimar (Kobold base)
Small (+1 ac, +1 attack, -1 CMD/CMB, +2 fly, +4 stealth)
Speed 30
Alternate Racial Traits: Scion of Humanity, Exalted Resistance, Truespeaker
Racial Spell Like Ability: Alter Self (Lizard folk, for bite and claw)
20 point buy: 12 str (+2 race), 10 dex, 13 con, 13 int, 15 wis, 14 cha (+2 race)
1st Trait: Blessed Touch (+1 to channel and cure healing)
2nd Trait: Adopted -> Tusked (1d3 bite attack)
Level 1: Shaman
1st Feat: Racial Heritage (Kobold) (To actually count as a kobold)
Spirit: Life (For positive energy channeling)
Level 2: Shaman
Hex: Shapeshift (For more Lizardfolk time)
Level 3: Shaman
Feat: Scaled Disciple (to qualify for Dragon Disciple prestige class with Shaman’s Spirit Magic)
Level 4: Shaman
Ability bonus: +1 intelligence (for Arcane Enlightenment hex)
Wandering Spirit: Lore (Can be changed, but typical choice)
Level 5: Shaman
Feat: Favored Prestige Class (Dragon Disciple) (For Prestigious Spellcaster)
Level 6: Shaman
Wandering Hex: Arcane Enlightenment (Daily access to wizard spell list)
Level 7: Dragon Disciple (Silver Dragon)
Feat: Prestigious Spellcaster (No loss of spell casting levels for prestige class)
+1 Natural Armor
Blood of Dragons (Claws)
On that point, it's not necessarily about equating them to SLAs. The point is that Spirit Magic gives spells not directly tied to acquiring spells from gaining levels in a spellcasting class, they're a feature separate from the assumed "Spells" feature, and as such shouldn't be treated as the "Spells" feature for the purposes of fulfilling requirements that depend on spellcasting.
SLAs are simply brought up as being the most common example of acquiring spells not tied to spellcasting acquired via an appropriate class, and having numerous FAQs stating spellcasting that's not spontaneous from the "Spells" class feature isn't to be treated as a spontaneous spellcaster supports this ideal.
Also, a couple points:
1. Spirit Magic progression is explicitly tied to your regular spells progression, if that helps any. Spirit Magic: "She has one spell slot per day of each shaman spell level she can cast, not including orisons."
2. There are multiple developer posts that say SLAs are NOT spells, they're just similar to spells. So acquiring an SLA can't be considered an example of acquiring a spell period, so it doesn't follow to go further and come to the conclusion that the reason they don't count is because they didn't come from your Spells class feature.
So are Mystery spells from Oracles, and Domain spells from Clerics/Druids, but I wouldn't say that's the reason they qualify for PrCs that require spontaneous spellcasting. The reason they qualify is because they have spontaneous spellcasting with their base spellcasting ability.
A feature that grants limited spontaneous spellcasting has been proven to not constitute spontaneous spellcasting for the purposes of requirements, as evidenced by FAQs you've posted. Just because it has different mechanics for what you can cast doesn't make it any more valid in comparison to most every other ability.
So are Mystery spells from Oracles, and Domain spells from Clerics/Druids, but I wouldn't say that's the reason they qualify for PrCs that require spontaneous spellcasting. The reason they qualify is because they have spontaneous spellcasting with their base spellcasting ability.A feature that grants limited spontaneous spellcasting has been proven to not constitute spontaneous spellcasting for the purposes of requirements, as evidenced by FAQs you've posted. Just because it has different mechanics for what you can cast doesn't make it any more valid in comparison to most every other ability.
Mystery spells for Oracles are added as spells known, not as bonus slots IIRC, so it has no bearing on the discussion. We've already covered bonus Domain slots: if they gave spontaneous slots I don't see why they wouldn't qualify.
And I'm still waiting on a source that says limited spontaneous spellcasting does not constitute spontaneous spellcasting. As far as I can tell no FAQ addresses this, only SLAs which are consistently dubbed "Not Spells" and therefore don't count as spontaneous spell casting. Cleric spontaneous conversion, we've already covered, is obviously a special case *and* requires preparing spells first in order to convert them.
We need to boil this down and get away from faqs that don't directly apply. Maybe the FAQ request should be:
"Does a class ability, other than the main Spells entry, that grants spontaneous spell slots allow the class to qualify as a spontaneous caster? How about "the ability to cast spells without preparation"?"
Yay why do i get the feeling we will end up burning a weeks FAQ if it continues.
Now my question is do any of the draconic feats for kobolds stack/interact with the claws/bite/breath weapon from DD or is it best to just take one or the other?From what I've seen, none of the DD stuff stacks with the kobold stuff. My build so far (which is till level 1 in Carrion Crown) is planned as follows:
** spoiler omitted **...
*Shudder* thats gonna be a tough A for a Kobold good luck!
*Shudder* thats gonna be a tough A for a Kobold good luck!Now my question is do any of the draconic feats for kobolds stack/interact with the claws/bite/breath weapon from DD or is it best to just take one or the other?From what I've seen, none of the DD stuff stacks with the kobold stuff. My build so far (which is till level 1 in Carrion Crown) is planned as follows:
** spoiler omitted **...
Yup. The prejudice is real. I mostly hide behind the paladin of Erastil. We both plan to have boatloads of Diplomacy, and I'm hoping Truespeaker helps out there.
Part of the fun of this build is how it interacts with the world though, so it would be kind of lame to run him in a campaign where no one really cares what race you are.
Oh I agree we had a goblin bard when I ran it. Even with prejudice there was not a dry eye in the house after his eulogy.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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What says you can't be both a prepared caster and a spontaneous caster? It's ridiculous to say that someone who casts spontaneously isn't a spontaneous caster. Especially when there is absolutely 0 rules support to have that opinion.So you would allow a shaman to qualify for Mystic Theurge on its own?
Good point.
Which would result in a Shaman 3 / MT 10 would cast 9th level spells in both at CL 23. Why? Because allowing this means that they get +1 effective spell levels for each MT level to Shaman.
Good point.Which would result in a Shaman 3 / MT 10 would cast 9th level spells in both at CL 23. Why? Because allowing this means that they get +1 effective spell levels for each MT level to Shaman.
Actually not a good point because it wouldn't qualify because all of its casting is Divine.
If a single class does qualify for Mystic Theurge, though, you would be hard pressed to find a GM that would read "This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly" and allow you to add your Mystic Theurge levels twice.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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you would be hard pressed to find a GM
This who thing needs a GM to interpret. The extract interpretation of those prerequisites is something that has been a given since 1999/2000 when 3.0 was released. Every FAQ touches on but never directly answers (the SLA faq now cancelled and the other FAQs mentioned in this thread).
Your type of spell casting is presumed to be what is described in your spells class feature. If you have non spells feature methods of casting (such as Shaman sport magic) it doesn’t count for the sprllcasting.
I don’t recall the responses I made on this years ago, but a point I didn’t think about is that was during the time SLA counted as spellcasting. Which colored the whole system with ambiguity. That has sense been removed. There is much less ambiguity now. This shouldn’t count. Mostly because “+1 Level” of spirit magic doesn’t make sense.
I feel like the modus operandi for you and others arguing Spirit Magic doesn't count has been to assume it doesn't then try to scrape the bottom of the barrel of FAQs to support that assumption.
I really see nothing to support your conclusion that spells and spell slots granted from class features besides "Spells" somehow don't count as real spellcasting. The previous SLA ruling was that SLAs counted for requirements across the board, and was used for early access to prestige classes. Then the FAQ changed SLAs to not count as spells and not count for prerequisites for a variety of things. So the history says that as long as things counted as spells then they were okay.
Spirit Magic 100%, unarguably, undeniably grants real spells. They are chosen from a list, they are cast from spell slots, they reference spontaneous casting and metamagic. Your argument is that they don't count as spells both for "ability to cast 1st levels spells without preparation" and for the class being considered spontaneous and prepared. That seems like an exceptional claim, and introduces a weird non-spells subcategory that everything like Domain slots now have to fall into.
It makes no sense to expand the SLA ruling to deny anything obtained outside of the Spells class feature, when those FAQs never mentioned anything of the sort.
I'd love to see links to FAQs or posts that limit things to the "Spells" class feature, but I can't find them. Please most more examples.
The designers of the game tell us to read rules "conversationally". I believe a simple, honest to goodness, reading of these abilities, feats and prerequisites follows this logic:
1. I am a kobold.
2. I have levels in Shaman.
3. The Scaled Disciple feat says I need to be able to spontaneously cast divine spells and be a kobold.
4. Spirit Magic says I can spontaneously cast divine spells.
5. I can take the Scaled Disciple feat, which says "Your spontaneous divine spellcasting qualifies in place of arcane casting for the dragon disciple prestige class, and you may increase spellcasting in your spontaneous divine class as you progress in dragon disciple levels."
6. Since 3 and 4 are true, I assume the "spontaneous divine class" the feat talks about applies to the Shaman class.
7. Furthermore (and this hasn't been discussed yet), the wording "add the bonus spells gained from the blood of dragons ability to those you can cast as divine spells" applies to the shaman spell list as a whole, because that's the most common way spells are added to a class.
The weirdness of trying to advance Spirit Magic independent of Shaman only occurs if you're trying to rules lawyer a way to make the feat not work for Shaman. Imagine trying to argue to a newish player(admittedly no new player should pick up the Shaman) that their logic isn't sound because of a FAQ about spell like abilities that tangentially implies spellcasting isn't spellcasting.
Well, let's look at it this way.
If I'm a Wizard with a Bonded Object, and I can cast any spell from my book without preparation, does that mean I can qualify for Dragon Disciple by being able to cast 1st level spells spontaneously?
If you answer yes to that, then I suppose a FAQ should be made to clarify Spirit Magic working (or not working). If you answer no, then that is the same position I've taken, so then we'll have to compare why a Bonded Object doesn't qualify, but Spirit Magic does.
As a GM I once allowed a Wizard player to qualify based on my reading of the ability. Without additional clarification, I would still argue it appears to work.
I can't seem to find the FAQ or post that bars its use, which would be helpful in this discussion.
Here is the Arcane Bond text:
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard’s level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities. The bonded object cannot be used to cast spells from the wizard’s opposition schools (see arcane school below)."
Arcane Bond is a bit different, and I've seen some arguments against its use for prerequisites that are arguably reasonable. For instance, I've heard people say it's the item that gives the ability to cast the spell without preparation, not the caster. This hinges on the reading of "a bonded object can be used..."
While that might fly as an explanation for some people (personally I don't care for it much) it isn't useful to say the Spirits are giving the Shaman the ability to cast, because (not only does it not say that) technically all divine casting comes from an outside source.
The Arcane Bond ability also explicitly bars metamagic, doesn't reference spontaneous casting, and does not say it grants spell slots (as Spirit Magic does).
I really there is no direct rules text on but spontaneous and prepared caster comes down to how your slots are used each day. They never have intended for limited spontaneous casting to allow them to count as both types of casters. Clerics and Druids have never been "Spontaneous Casters" even though both can cast certain spells that way. I get that you believe your correct in your reading, but you would have to provide the evidence that a limited selection of spontaneous spells (which basically are your domain spells just worded differently) some how lets you be the only caster in the game that is both types. And that no one has realized this and found a way to maximize potential.
Also the crux of your argument isn't even can your qualify for DD but how are you qualifying for Scaled Disciple as a Shaman anyway? If your GM is allowing you that then there shouldn't be an issue since it requires spontaneous casting.
The Arcane Bond wouldn't qualify based on the text "treated like any other spell cast by the Wizard." This would mean that the spell is treated as prepared, which means it's not treated as spontaneous for qualifying. At least, that's what I gathered from it. There's also the factor that it may not be used on a 1st level spell, even if it is possible to do so, but I digress.
The point is that if you think Arcane Bond qualifies, then we'll need a FAQ about spells not derived from a class list to qualify for PrCs.
I really there is no direct rules text on but spontaneous and prepared caster comes down to how your slots are used each day.
Obligatory "gotcha!". Spirit Magic grants spell slots!
They never have intended for limited spontaneous casting to allow them to count as both types of casters. Clerics and Druids have never been "Spontaneous Casters" even though both can cast certain spells that way.
It's funny that you should say "limited", because a level 4 Shaman has the same limited spellcasting as a level 4, 11 Cha Bloodrager who would qualify. I get that you mean "limited" as in not directly associated with the normal spell progression.
But again, we've been over why Clerics and Druids can be reasonably deemed to behave differently, and that the closest equivalent ability is Domain spells which, if made spontaneous, would create the same question I have for Spirit Magic. I would sincerely like Paizo to weigh in on intent for this.
I get that you believe your correct in your reading, but you would have to provide the evidence that a limited selection of spontaneous spells (which basically are your domain spells just worded differently) some how lets you be the only caster in the game that is both types. And that no one has realized this and found a way to maximize potential.Also the crux of your argument isn't even can your qualify for DD but how are you qualifying for Scaled Disciple as a Shaman anyway? If your GM is allowing you that then there shouldn't be an issue since it requires spontaneous casting.
I'm not the one who designed a class that gets both Prepared and Spontaneous spell slots, so I can't comment on the intention of what counts for what when determining prepared versus spontaneous casters.
I'm also not making an outlandish claim. Read my previous post about the logic I followed. It seems like a perfectly reasonable conclusion to come to, especially if you're not a rules lawyer. After all, you're supposed to read things "naturally".
My goals with this thread are multiple now:
1. If people agree Spirit Magic qualifies for the feat. Then I can take the feat, and it's then easier to argue with any given GM what's fair about the interpretation of the contents of the feat.
2. If people agree having spontaneous spell slots makes Shaman a spontaneous caster, then there is no question I can take the feat at all. This also opens up other neat options like using a Mnemonic Vestment to use spontaneous slots on scrolls.
3. Generate interest in Paizo making an official ruling one way or another so that I can avoid having to argue with anyone about the issue.