Master of Many Styles says:
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not need to meet the prerequisites of that feat
So I was wondering if one who has Snake Style can use one of those bonus feats to take Snake Fang (third feat in the chain) without having Snake Sidewind (second in the chain and prerequisite for Snake Fang).
RAW, I see nothing preventing it, although it seems too good to take the third feat in the chain without having the second.
So I looked up the messageboards here, but the closest thing related to this matter I found was this thread, where they talk about errata.
But looking at the PRD, D20PFSRD, and actual book, I see no difference, and moreover I see nothing preventing the skipping of the second feat in the chain.
Am I missing something, or were they talking about something else and one can simply skip the second feat?
you can no longer skip the second feat.
If you aren't seeing anything about wildcard feats, then you don't have the errata.
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Also, I think it's been clarified that the feats in the style chain are not actually Style feats. Only the base feat marked with <Style> is considered a Style feat. So you can't take the 2nd feat in the chain with your bonus feat at 2nd level even if you meet the prerequisite. Only starting at 6th level can you take the Wildcard Style Slot, which will let you pick up feats in the chain temporarily when you enter the style, but even then, you need to meet the prerequisite.
So basically, no Snake Fang before 9th level. Which makes me not feel so bad that I went the long way around with my Monk in the first place.
The link you provided to the PRD has the full text of the errata'd archetype.
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not need to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Starting at 6th level, a master of many styles can choose to instead gain a wildcard style slot. Whenever he enters one or more styles, he can spend his wildcard style slots to gain feats in those styles' feat paths (such as Earth Child Topple) as long as he meets the prerequisites. Each time the master of many styles changes styles, he can also change these wildcard style slots. This ability replaces a monk's standard bonus feats.
The wildcard slot is alright alright, as far as rules go*, but I was talking about actually taking the third feat as a fixed slot (for example, at 2nd level, when you don't even have access to wildcards).
Fixed slots remain within the "no prerequisites needed" area, so, by RAW, you can jump straight to the end of the chain.
*Well, actually, wildcard isn't alright at all, since by RAW it forces you to meet ALL the prerequisites, and most style feats require wasting lots of ranks in various skills, so it's probably better to swap the wildcard slots for fixed slots that don't ask for prerequisites.
Also, I think it's been clarified that the feats in the style chain are not actually Style feats. Only the base feat marked with <Style> is considered a Style feat. So you can't take the 2nd feat in the chain with your bonus feat at 2nd level even if you meet the prerequisite. Only starting at 6th level can you take the Wildcard Style Slot, which will let you pick up feats in the chain temporarily when you enter the style, but even then, you need to meet the prerequisite.
So basically, no Snake Fang before 9th level. Which makes me not feel so bad that I went the long way around with my Monk in the first place.
The link you provided to the PRD has the full text of the errata'd archetype.
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not need to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Starting at 6th level, a master of many styles can choose to instead gain a wildcard style slot. Whenever he enters one or more styles, he can spend his wildcard style slots to gain feats in those styles' feat paths (such as Earth Child Topple) as long as he meets the prerequisites. Each time the master of many styles changes styles, he can also change these wildcard style slots. This ability replaces a monk's standard bonus feats.
Ah, sorry, I was writing while you were posting. Well, the fact that the other feats aren't style feats clarifies everything.
Along with the clarification that the master of many styles really sucks.
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The current text is;
"At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not need to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat."
If Snake Fang is considered a style feat then yes this text would allow you to take it without first taking Snake Sidewind... or even Snake Style (though you'd need that to USE it).
However, my understanding is that only feats which allow you to enter a certain combat style are 'style feats'. Snake Style is a style feat. Snake Fang is not.
That said, the passage above continues;
"Starting at 6th level, a master of many styles can choose to instead gain a wildcard style slot. Whenever he enters one or more styles, he can spend his wildcard style slots to gain feats in those styles' feat paths (such as Earth Child Topple) as long as he meets the prerequisites. Each time the master of many styles changes styles, he can also change these wildcard style slots."
So, you could take two 'wildcard slots' and be able to 'fill out' the feat chain for any style you have and can meet the pre-reqs for.
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I'm fairly sure there isn't any language about the base one being all that can be selected. The issue is most feats in chains aren't styles. As long as it is a style it can still be selected.
This is very relevant because there are some style feats which are higher in the chain such as Perfect Style's Unfolding Wind Rush.
Along with the clarification that the master of many styles really sucks.
It does a better job reproducing its concept ("a martial artist who has mastered many fighting styles and will alternate between them based on circumstances") than the original version did. It's just much, much less effective at empowering other concepts than the original one was.
Problem is if only the first feats in the chains are style feats, there is no point in this archetype.
If you get the wildcard slots, you can use ONLY the first feat of any chain (since you don't have them as fixed-slot feats, and thus cannot take the other feats in their chains with your normal feat slots), and ONLY if you meet the prerequisites.
It's far better to not use this archetype, keep your Flurry of Blows, and take one style chain that you like with your normal feats.
The end result is, the intention of the ability after it was errata'd was not to allow you to bypass the first feat in the chain and jump to the 2nd or 3rd.
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I'm fairly sure there isn't any language about the base one being all that can be selected. The issue is most feats in chains aren't styles. As long as it is a style it can still be selected.
This is very relevant because there are some style feats which are higher in the chain such as Perfect Style's Unfolding Wind Rush.
Yeah, I guess using base feat in my description was a mistake. It's limited to feats that have <Style> listed like they would <Combat> or something similar. Previous to the errata and message board clarifications, I think a lot of people assumed that the <Style> indicator was left off of things like Snake Fang by accident. But it was intentional.
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Problem is if only the first feats in the chains are style feats, there is no point in this archetype.
If you get the wildcard slots, you can use ONLY the first feat of any chain (since you don't have them as fixed-slot feats, and thus cannot take the other feats in their chains with your normal feat slots), and ONLY if you meet the prerequisites.
It's far better to not use this archetype, keep your Flurry of Blows, and take one style chain that you like with your normal feats.
No, the Wildcard slot allows you take pick up feats in that styles' feat path, provided you meet the prerequisites. So at 6th level, you could pick up Snake Sidewind whenever you enter Snake Style. At 9th, if you take Snake Sidewind as an actual feat, then you could pick up Snake Fang whenever you enter Snake Style (this is all assuming you meet the Acrobatics and Sense Motive prerequisites). At 10th level, even if you don't have Snake Sidewind as a normal feat, you can pick up Snake Sidewind and Snake Fang with your Wildcard slots.
The benefit to Master of Many Styles is being able to enter more than one style at a time. There are other things that let you do that, sure, but the Wildcard slots allow you to change up which feat paths you have for a particular combat. Entering Dragon Style and Snake Style? Choose to pick up the Dragon Style feat path or the Snake Style feat path each time you enter the styles.
EDIT: Also, consider combining with a Brawler dip for Martial Flexibility. It still won't let you take something like Snake Fang early, but it can help if you need something like Dodge as a prerequisite for the second feat in the chain, but skipped it when you picked up the Style feat as a bonus feat.
Ah, that's right, but you still have to waste a huge amount of skill ranks, or you're not meeting the prerequisites.
Really, really not worth it. You have to completely devote your PC to the use of that ability, and it's not even like it gets any real strong.
Eh, I'm not into dips, I like characters with character; a druid who is a Druid, a fighter who is a Fighter, etc., not ugly meltin' pots of classes made for mere numerical convenience.
Eh, I'm not into dips, I like characters with character; a druid who is a Druid, a fighter who is a Fighter, etc., not ugly meltin' pots of classes made for mere numerical convenience.
Did you really just say that carbon copies have more character?
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Personally I think the errata should have specified that wildcard slots let you ignore prerequisites other than the feats in the style chain themselves.
So a 10th level MoMS with two wildcard slots could take both Snake Sidewind and Snake Fang even without having Combat Reflexes or the ranks in Acrobatics and Sense Motive, but he couldn't take Snake Fang without taking Snake Sidewind.
More generally by 10th level any MoMS could use wildcard to become a master of any one style that they have the base style feat in regardless of other prerequisites (aside from Elemental Fist).
That would make it much easier for the MoMS to actually switch between styles as the situation demanded without worrying about skill ranks, Dodge, Combat Expertise, and so forth.
it's the knee-jerk man. If something gets nerfed you need to nerf it to oblivion, not just into a proper place. ;)
cause yeah, my understanding was the main issue was lv9 feats gained at lv2. If you stop that, then a handful of other nerfs go away and this class gets to have the power to fill it's dream. As is, it's a LOT of work to get the pre-reqs for the feats you want to use.
As far as i can see both the d20pfsrd:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-feats
And the offical PRD:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html
Lists most of the feats, even within the feat chain as "style" feat. IMO this would allow a MoMS to pick it up via his bonus feats, while ignoring the prereq.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The exceptions are admitted mistakes.
Only the first in each path should have the style tag.
It's best to not use d20pfsrd as a rules source, as they do editorial review and add text to rules that don't exist in the rules. Apparently in this case, but defineately in other cases like kitsune fear "Specisl:" line and other examples.
I'll have to keep in mind characters are defined by their class names from now on.
Did you really just say that carbon copies have more character?
Yes, you two are born comedians. But you know what I meant. Especially since it's literally black on white. Unless you like to play dumb just for pointless trolling.
I wonder if, as writers, you'd create a character thinking "he should have taken a Monk dip".
So glad that MoMS was fixed. I remember the huge uproar when Crane Style was nerfed into the ground. Just because the MoMS could take a 5th level feat @ lvl2 (or 1 if he'she was human and got to Crane Style with normal feats)"breaking" the game.
At least Crane Style did get a buff later...
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I wonder if, as writers, you'd create a character thinking "he should have taken a Monk dip".
No, but I certainly would write a character who had spent a year training in a monastery and left when, say, their father and elder brother died and they inherited a lord's estate. They will never master the skills of a monk but still learned a few tricks that they will remember even now that they are learning samurai arts...
I'll have to keep in mind characters are defined by their class names from now on.Did you really just say that carbon copies have more character?Yes, you two are born comedians. But you know what I meant. Especially since it's literally black on white. Unless you like to play dumb just for pointless trolling.
I wonder if, as writers, you'd create a character thinking "he should have taken a Monk dip".
I know exactly what you meant. You meant that there is a "right" way to build a character. I find this pretty offensive. The whole point of these games is to make up your own roles, not just play one written by someone else.
I live my real life taking "dips" in classes, I don't know why I wouldn't as a character?
In real life I did construction, fabrication, EMS, Military Police, Emergency Management, and now business ownership.
People's lives often fail to follow a single, narrow path.
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Ha, ha! Yeah! Keep ragging on the guy for the way he personally likes to build characters!
I'm not intending to disparage the way that he likes to build characters. The thing is, when he says that characters with dips are:
ugly meltin' pots of classes made for mere numerical convenience.
...it's sort of insulting to people who do build with dips and do so partly or entirely for narrative rather than mechanical reasons.
Some people do have twisting life paths that lead to them learning unexpected skills. This is sometimes best represented by a dip into another class.MoMS needed the nerf because every style had to be written around the possibility of people ignoring prerequisites, meaning every style had to do crazy stuff to balance something meant for level 6+ people in case someone cheesed his way into it at level 2.
Allowing the monk to use wildcard slots to ignore prerequisites other than the other feats in the style chain would do that too, as you can't get wildcard slots (and thus ignore prereqs) until level 6 at minimum and can't get the third feat in the chain until level 10 unless you buy the second feat normally, prereqs and all.