Ioun Stone that grants Combat Reflexes?


Advice

Grand Lodge

I'm thinking of having one of my villains have an ioun stone that grants Combat Reflexes. The intention being that my players will get to keep it later. The villain is a 6th level warpriest, the players will be level 4 when they're expected to defeat her.

Red Spinel Marquise wrote:


Aura moderate ??? (I really don't know what aura it might have); CL 14th

Slot none; Price: 12,000 gp; Weight —.

This ioun stone is deep red with the facets revealing a murky blackness as the stone turns.

This stone grants the wearer Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat.
(no cracked/flawed)

If slotted in a wayfinder: Once per day, when an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from the wearer, the wearer may make another attack of opportunity against the opponent. This is an exception for not normally being allowed to make more than one attack for a given opportunity.

The only similar ioun stone is the opalescent white pyramid. It grants a weapon proficiency, CL 12 to make, and costs 10,000. So I just increased those numbers slightly as this one, in my opinion, is better.

I honestly don't expect my players to ever try and slot it into a wayfinder, but if they do I thought this was a cool ability.

Thoughts?


Might I suggest the second AoO be with a -5 penalty, like this?

Fortuitous Weapon Enhancement

Grand Lodge

That's a good idea. I hadn't considered how similar it was to the Fortuitous ability. It could be an "always on Fortuitous" rather than a once per day. Or it could still be just a once per day Fortuitous. I'll have to think about it. I'll probably give it some kind of attunement period so it only works with one of the wearer's weapons.

I considered adding something along the lines of "it doesn't stack with stuff that does something similar" (worded more officially, of course). But I figured since it's not a published item and just an item for my players where I'm the arbiter, I'd just tell them that's how it works if it ever came up.


Once per round, not day.


Specifically so it doesn't massively increase the power of Combat Reflexes.


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Fortuitous Weapon Enchantment maybe the most broken weapon enchantment I have ever seen for a Come and Get Me barbarian.


It probably works well with an Order of he Whip (Villain Codex) Cavalier, too.

Grand Lodge

_Ozy_ wrote:
Specifically so it doesn't massively increase the power of Combat Reflexes.

How would making it once per day at full bab instead of once a round at bab -5 massively increase the power of Combat Reflexes?


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If your ok with it not being an ioun stone a +1 training spiked gauntlet is 8301gp. Otherwise could lower the price a little bit and call it an ioun stone

Edit: Training enchant: +1 cost. Gives the wielder access to a single combat feat decided at time of crafting so long as the wielder otherwise qualifies for the feat


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There are 3 stones that grant a feat, the opalescent pyramid you mentioned; the scarlet and green cabochon, which grants Endurance; and the dark blue rhomboid, which grants Alertness. All cost 10,000. So it seems that the cost of a feat for an ioun stone is 10,000 gp.


There is one in one of the high level PFS scenarios that can grant any one feat .
Its resonant power is to make Knowledge (arcana) a class skill.

The scenario has it priced at 30000, with a CL of 12.

Take from that what you will.

Silver Crusade

Dastis wrote:

If your ok with it not being an ioun stone a +1 training spiked gauntlet is 8301gp. Otherwise could lower the price a little bit and call it an ioun stone

Edit: Training enchant: +1 cost. Gives the wielder access to a single combat feat decided at time of crafting so long as the wielder otherwise qualifies for the feat

Is this a published item or enchantment? Seems rather strong to me and I cannot locate it.


It's worth noting the 3 feats that existing feats that Ioun stones grants are... sort of terrible feats that don't really do much. I don't know that I've seen a player take any of those feats (either in real life or in any of the builds I've seen in these forums) except for really weird corner cases for pre-reqs (never for the feats themselves).

Combat Reflex's is a feat that I do see people taking, and would be a steal at 10k in a slotless wondrous item.

There is a good reason that putting important combat feats into slotless items isn't done... it can mess up balance pretty quick. Feats are supposed to be a scarce resource that you have to make meaningful choices about. Handing them out cheaply (and 10k is very cheap at higher levels) removes a pretty core aspect of character building.

I personally wouldn't create such an item in my game. And I definitely wouldn't let my players start crafting other "feat in a can" items (I probably wouldn't even let them craft/sell this one... call it a minor artifact or something)


supervillan wrote:
Dastis wrote:

If your ok with it not being an ioun stone a +1 training spiked gauntlet is 8301gp. Otherwise could lower the price a little bit and call it an ioun stone

Edit: Training enchant: +1 cost. Gives the wielder access to a single combat feat decided at time of crafting so long as the wielder otherwise qualifies for the feat

Is this a published item or enchantment? Seems rather strong to me and I cannot locate it.

Inner Sea Intrigue. Limited by that the feats do not qualify as prequisits and they are a flat +bonus to grant a combat feat limiting their use greatly

Silver Crusade

Dastis wrote:
supervillan wrote:
Dastis wrote:

If your ok with it not being an ioun stone a +1 training spiked gauntlet is 8301gp. Otherwise could lower the price a little bit and call it an ioun stone

Edit: Training enchant: +1 cost. Gives the wielder access to a single combat feat decided at time of crafting so long as the wielder otherwise qualifies for the feat

Is this a published item or enchantment? Seems rather strong to me and I cannot locate it.
Inner Sea Intrigue. Limited by that the feats do not qualify as prequisits and they are a flat +bonus to grant a combat feat limiting their use greatly

Brand new stuff. Interesting. I predict many +1 training spiked gauntlets, cestii, shield spikes and armour spikes in our futures.


supervillan wrote:
Dastis wrote:
supervillan wrote:
Dastis wrote:

If your ok with it not being an ioun stone a +1 training spiked gauntlet is 8301gp. Otherwise could lower the price a little bit and call it an ioun stone

Edit: Training enchant: +1 cost. Gives the wielder access to a single combat feat decided at time of crafting so long as the wielder otherwise qualifies for the feat

Is this a published item or enchantment? Seems rather strong to me and I cannot locate it.
Inner Sea Intrigue. Limited by that the feats do not qualify as prequisits and they are a flat +bonus to grant a combat feat limiting their use greatly
Brand new stuff. Interesting. I predict many +1 training spiked gauntlets, cestii, shield spikes and armour spikes in our futures.

Note that Training is not PFS legal.


supervillan wrote:
Dastis wrote:
supervillan wrote:
Dastis wrote:

If your ok with it not being an ioun stone a +1 training spiked gauntlet is 8301gp. Otherwise could lower the price a little bit and call it an ioun stone

Edit: Training enchant: +1 cost. Gives the wielder access to a single combat feat decided at time of crafting so long as the wielder otherwise qualifies for the feat

Is this a published item or enchantment? Seems rather strong to me and I cannot locate it.
Inner Sea Intrigue. Limited by that the feats do not qualify as prequisits and they are a flat +bonus to grant a combat feat limiting their use greatly
Brand new stuff. Interesting. I predict many +1 training spiked gauntlets, cestii, shield spikes and armour spikes in our futures.

Aside from it not being PFS legal, can you have something like +1 training spiked gauntlet(s) equipped and still get the benefit of the ability along with wielding a two handed weapon like a great sword. I read up on the ability in Inner Sea Intrigue and in the description it said a training weapon grants one combat feat to the wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand. So the question is would a spiked gauntlet be considered drawn and in hand when also wielding a two handed weapon like a great sword. And do feats like power attack and combat reflexes qualify as usable feats for this +1 ability.


swordfalcon wrote:
supervillan wrote:
Dastis wrote:
supervillan wrote:
Dastis wrote:

If your ok with it not being an ioun stone a +1 training spiked gauntlet is 8301gp. Otherwise could lower the price a little bit and call it an ioun stone

Edit: Training enchant: +1 cost. Gives the wielder access to a single combat feat decided at time of crafting so long as the wielder otherwise qualifies for the feat

Is this a published item or enchantment? Seems rather strong to me and I cannot locate it.
Inner Sea Intrigue. Limited by that the feats do not qualify as prequisits and they are a flat +bonus to grant a combat feat limiting their use greatly
Brand new stuff. Interesting. I predict many +1 training spiked gauntlets, cestii, shield spikes and armour spikes in our futures.
Aside from it not being PFS legal, can you have something like +1 training spiked gauntlet(s) equipped and still get the benefit of the ability along with wielding a two handed weapon like a great sword. I read up on the ability in Inner Sea Intrigue and in the description it said a training weapon grants one combat feat to the wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand. So the question is would a spiked gauntlet be considered drawn and in hand when also wielding a two handed weapon like a great sword. And do feats like power attack and combat reflexes qualify as usable feats for this +1 ability.

Debatable.... I've seen arguements from the defending/guardian enchant and there is no RAW definition of wielded. In other words ask a DM or if you want a rules debate start a thread on the rules section


Dastis wrote:
swordfalcon wrote:
supervillan wrote:
Dastis wrote:
supervillan wrote:
Dastis wrote:

If your ok with it not being an ioun stone a +1 training spiked gauntlet is 8301gp. Otherwise could lower the price a little bit and call it an ioun stone

Edit: Training enchant: +1 cost. Gives the wielder access to a single combat feat decided at time of crafting so long as the wielder otherwise qualifies for the feat

Is this a published item or enchantment? Seems rather strong to me and I cannot locate it.
Inner Sea Intrigue. Limited by that the feats do not qualify as prequisits and they are a flat +bonus to grant a combat feat limiting their use greatly
Brand new stuff. Interesting. I predict many +1 training spiked gauntlets, cestii, shield spikes and armour spikes in our futures.
Aside from it not being PFS legal, can you have something like +1 training spiked gauntlet(s) equipped and still get the benefit of the ability along with wielding a two handed weapon like a great sword. I read up on the ability in Inner Sea Intrigue and in the description it said a training weapon grants one combat feat to the wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand. So the question is would a spiked gauntlet be considered drawn and in hand when also wielding a two handed weapon like a great sword. And do feats like power attack and combat reflexes qualify as usable feats for this +1 ability.
Debatable.... I've seen arguements from the defending/guardian enchant and there is no RAW definition of wielded. In other words ask a DM or if you want a rules debate start a thread on the rules section

OK, I came to the same conclusion just wanted to make sure, but can power attack and combat reflexes qualify as feats to be chosen for the training ability. One of your comments earlier made me want to make sure I was reading the description of the ability right.

Scarab Sages

EvilMinion wrote:

There is one in one of the high level PFS scenarios that can grant any one feat .

Its resonant power is to make Knowledge (arcana) a class skill.

The scenario has it priced at 30000, with a CL of 12.

Take from that what you will.

That is a very special item acquired in a special way. For calculating cost, being able to choose any feat is a big advantage.

I'm also unclear with that stone if you can pick a different feat every time you activate it. But there are... reasons you wouldn't activate it more than once.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Dastis wrote:
Debatable.... I've seen arguements from the defending/guardian enchant and there is no RAW definition of wielded. In other words ask a DM or if you want a rules debate start a thread on the rules section

Except Training has nothing to do with 'wielded'. Rather, the requirement is "drawn and in hand". That seems unambiguous for shield/armor spikes... they would not (normally) be "in hand" and thus would not provide the benefit. Gauntlets and cestii, being worn 'on' the hands, are likely to see more debate though.

Grand Lodge

claudekennilol wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Specifically so it doesn't massively increase the power of Combat Reflexes.
How would making it once per day at full bab instead of once a round at bab -5 massively increase the power of Combat Reflexes?

If someone could answer this question instead of other stuff not related to the topic that'd be very helpful.


claudekennilol wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Specifically so it doesn't massively increase the power of Combat Reflexes.
How would making it once per day at full bab instead of once a round at bab -5 massively increase the power of Combat Reflexes?
If someone could answer this question instead of other stuff not related to the topic that'd be very helpful.

I can't explain what Ozy's meant, but I can tell you that 12,000 for Combat Reflexes is high enough. I'd even settle for 10,000 as that seems to be the price of a non-slotted feat.

The resonant powers from wayfinders do not have an extra cost, probably because you're already paying extra for the unslotted Ioun Stones. So as long as your resonant power isn't completely off the charts it shouldn't raise the market price of the Ioun Stone.

An once per day extra attack on one AoO isn't gamebreaking, so I'd just let it stay on 10,000 and call it a day.


Back in 3.X, a slotless feat was priced at 10,000 + 5,000 for each prereq included. All Ioun Stones are CL12 and slotless.

You can use the "random" power under Resonant Powers Method 2.

The Fortuitous enchant is once per round, and I will be looking into it for my AoO build reach cleric.

/cevah


Wonderstell wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Specifically so it doesn't massively increase the power of Combat Reflexes.
How would making it once per day at full bab instead of once a round at bab -5 massively increase the power of Combat Reflexes?
If someone could answer this question instead of other stuff not related to the topic that'd be very helpful.

I can't explain what Ozy's meant, but I can tell you that 12,000 for Combat Reflexes is high enough. I'd even settle for 10,000 as that seems to be the price of a non-slotted feat.

The resonant powers from wayfinders do not have an extra cost, probably because you're already paying extra for the unslotted Ioun Stones. So as long as your resonant power isn't completely off the charts it shouldn't raise the market price of the Ioun Stone.

An once per day extra attack on one AoO isn't gamebreaking, so I'd just let it stay on 10,000 and call it a day.

I was referring to the Fortuitous weapon enchantment, which gives you an iterative AoO once per round. If this wasn't limited to once per round, as suggested by an 'always on' Fortuitous in the post I was responding to, someone with Combat reflexes could have a pretty large number of attacks. Couple this with reach and other ways to increase your threatened area, and this would be a HUGE boost to power for a mere +1 enhancement bonus.

Once a day extra AoO isn't worth much, probably not even 1k much less 10k.

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