Since there are a lot of people playing a lot of big posts, (and sometimes I am lazy) could everyone draw attention to either of my characters' or followers' names if they are addressing them? Spoilers, bold, dashes. Anything that stands out. Thanks
Late night, work in the AM, carpal tunnel acting up something nasty. Will post tomorrow.
Okay, that wasn't the kind of thing to promise for New Year's Eve. Tonight, though, yeah. :P
Happy New Year, everyone! We got out of 2016 alive!! Yaaay!!! :D
Out of curiosity I looked into lead uses during medieval times and found this. A quick look over (short on time) turns out that lead was used rather a lot. Before medieval times even to my personal surprise. Being cheap as well as widely used for nonmagical purposes at that. Unless I missed something in my glance over it means a lead lined room is not strange or expensive to have, just something along the lines of a request. Could be alot of roofs are lead lined as a matter of course depending on things.
A quick download of the referenced document ('Notes for a History of Lead and an Inquiry into the Development of the Manfacture of White lead and Lead Oxides', compiled by William H, Pulsifer, pub. New York by D. Van Nostrand, 23 Murray and 27 Warren Street, 1888, though apparently with some modifications by certain individuals at the University of Cambridge, spec. pp. 47, 49, and 239) and some perusal of one of its primary references ('The Annals of Commerce, etc.', volume 1 of 4, written/edited by David MacPherson, pp. 214, 238, and 345) strongly suggests that in part the use of lead, tin, or any 'base' metal as roofing was subject to availability of the metal, ownership of the mine (in the most oft-referred location, England, during the time-period discussed, the Crown was default owner of any mine), and wealth - to wit, that "... in the twelfth century lead in considerable quantities was exported (from England) to many parts of Europe, where it was used to cover the roofs of churches, castles, and other great buildings." While it was used in many other things at the time - as a sealant in piping, decoration and figures, pewter, etc. - it was still not something that got used en masse by the public for sheeting until much later on, when the ease of sheeting it (i.e. mechanically) improved greatly.
So no - the lead sheet roof, much less the lead-sheet room, is still going to be a rare thing, in part due to expense. Lead, with its high ductability and low melting point, makes it a wonder to work with; forming large sheets (or even small sheets) is still a laborious, hence expensive, task, thus relegating its use to those who can afford it - and don't have better use of their money, or easier materials to roof with.
The Temples of Adabar might have lead or tin roofs ...
Lots of Cool Sciencey Stuff
Here's the thing: in this sort of high-magic fantasy world, the scientific method and real natural philosophy not only get short shrift, they also get blended into magic - which in many cases is absolutely necessary. I mean, c'mon - owlbears? gelatinous cubes? Even a fraction of your questions can be answered with validity in so many different ways, depending on location in the world, time of year, even time of day, that virtually all of them would send a scientific genius from our world into psychic shock.
Just giving one example, let's answer these two questions:
"Do Wizards, alchemists, and other scholars know what an atom is?"
"Do they recognize the three primary states of matter?"
First RL point, it's four primary states of matter - solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. And yes, in fact, they DO recognize the four primary states of matter - Earth, Water, Air, and Fire, 'EWAF', which make up the entirety of the universe. What did you think those were? And of course they know what the 'smallest possible fragment of material' is - it's that basic thing in which is first blended the proper proportions of EWAF to make the thing what it is.
... see what I mean? The idea of 'humours in the blood/brain' continues to exist, because in this sort of world, those things exist, and can be seen and documented by a powerful-enough wizard, alchemist, or other magically-inclined scholar - and yet the existence of cells is, somewhere, likely to be discovered soon, if it hasn't already, by a Golarion version of van Leeuwenhoek. Cleanliness can help defeat diseases, but in a 3.5e world, even a sterile room and a fully-sealed bio-tainment encounter suit can't protect you against all diseases, because some of them are in fact transferrable, spreadable curses. And here's the thing - all these things will be simultaneously correct. Even if they seem mutually exclusive, they aren't. That means that if Sylvia were da Vinci, Newton, Pasteur, Salk, Fermi, Ohm, Marconi, and Einstein all rolled into one, none of what she'd be blathering on about would be the 'one true way' - because take science, add magic, and you get thirty different simultaneously factual explanations. Provable, even.
The best way - or rather, the only way - for Sylvia to be able to 'go on and on about what X, Y, or Z is/is about', she first needs to have sufficient ability in the appropriate skill - generally a KS, often Nature, but sometimes Planes, or whatever is appropriate. While I don't have - and won't handicap myself by trying to come up at this moment with - any sort of guideline for you to follow on this, the best thing I could suggest off the top of my head if you wanted to do this would be to use da Vinci as her equivalent once she has 20 points in the appropriate skill(s) and has committed most of a lifetime to coming up with ideas and experiments to test those ideas out.
Simply put, there is only so far a giant can climb without sufficient interplay with other great minds, other scientific concepts to start from, and - most critically important, and something she as a wizard would find it most difficult to deal with - an ability to test a situation without observational or implementational bias. If you want her to be a scientist, you're going to have to put your conjuring mage into a magic dead zone so that she can get to the heart of the matter. So I strongly suggest not to make her some sort of scientific genius; she has a brain, sure, but she hasn't the skill chops to do this. She can talk about things, many things, well above her skill point; she's a first grader talking at a high-school level (1 level, +10 skill bonus), but that doesn't mean that 'high school level' is going to be anywhere within reliable range of what we know about science today.
So do what most RL scientists do - don't talk about 'facts', leave that for the plebes and the wannabes. Talk about theories. "I heard Lodokov was trying to secure funding in Absalom for that glass starlight-splitter he keeps writing about." "Oh, yes, I read that last book of his; some interesting ideas I keep meaning to try out, about how white sunlight shining through a slit the width of a hair becomes a rainbow ..." Find old experiments - ones we consider basic, but which weren't in the distant past - and present them as new, untested. Theories old to us that she can argue about (since they are, for the sake of gameplay, new ones) with other, more powerful and more knowledgeable mages - because when you get down to it, she's the mental equivalent of a 10th or 11th-level mage when it comes to her key skills, KS: Arcana and Spellcraft. Find the wild and crazy-seeming theories too, because - and here's the key - without testing, she doesn't know which are 'correct' or not either. Nobody does; nobody did, until they could test it. Hell, they were scientifically testing for phlogiston until the 1780s, and they continued to test for the weirdest things into and through the 1960's.
Science means always being willing to test a theory, and come up with new ones - thought experiments like Einstein, mathematical calculations, all sorts of crazy stuff - stuff which doesn't always work out, a la da Vinci's 'screw-top' flying machine.
A 23 INT doesn't make her a complete know-it-all; it just gives her faster thinking speed and a few steps up on her education once she engages in it. So don't be a know-it-all; be a perpetual student.
I recommend using something similar to what I've been doing or suggesting - if you're writing your post and you want to interact with someone in particular, put them into the top of the post with that :: Bold :: bit, or else put their name into your spoiler tag.
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You've never done roofing have you?
Not that I recommend it. xP
No, never done roofing. Never looked pleasant, either. :P This is less an analysis of the material's validity or usefulness or efficacy as a roofing material and more as an analysis of the material's other uses, the historical uses of the material as a roofing material, and the ease/difficulty of doing so.
Bottom line: it can be done, yes, but it's expensive. (Not fvcking expensive, just standard expensive. :P )
Thanks for the post update GM. Anyway after Noelia tries to get information - where does that leave us for time (probably the only thing I want to manage. Is it enough to relay she couldn't narrow it down to Ishana - enough time to try an alternative chat? Ishana doesn't have a lot planned for this particular block so o want to make sure we use it effectively. It's possible A-Team discussion might also be winding down as well.
People wonder why Aolis has a ranger and experts instead of all spellcasters and maybe a few meat shields. Wisdom folks is not his dump stat or mine. xP
Really anyone that has been traveling around needs good skills in survival or someone with those skills. It's the wild folks, law of the jungle! xD
We'll be swinging into the second time block (1st Calistril, 4 PM - 8 PM) probably on Wednesday.
Okay, so... I'm having a TON of difficulty following this game so far. We've got a dozen players controlling 20 characters, each of whom is embroiled in conversations and long descriptive text posts. And it's absolutely impossible for me to tell what's going on, who if anyone is trying to talk to me, or who even most of the characters are (or whether I'm supposed to meet them). So:
-Have we been given anything yet other than "mingle time?" Best I can follow, they just read out the proclamation, and certain random people are talking to each other in the crowd but not actually about anything yet other than small talk. I guess I could try to join in on that, but I can't actually tell who's talking to whom, or where in the city it's happening (and "block 1" isn't a ton of chronology).
-Will be be continuing the whole game with this many players in one thread? If so, can people, when spoilering conversations, maybe hint at who they're talking to or where the conversation's happening in the spoiler?
-Did I miss anything important in the plot yet?
-When people are doing status bars with their vital info, maybe more important right now would it be possible to have a brief description of who/what people actually are?
Okay, so... I'm having a TON of difficulty following this game so far. We've got a dozen players controlling 20 characters, each of whom is embroiled in conversations and long descriptive text posts. And it's absolutely impossible for me to tell what's going on, who if anyone is trying to talk to me, or who even most of the characters are (or whether I'm supposed to meet them). So:
-Have we been given anything yet other than "mingle time?" Best I can follow, they just read out the proclamation, and certain random people are talking to each other in the crowd but not actually about anything yet other than small talk. I guess I could try to join in on that, but I can't actually tell who's talking to whom, or where in the city it's happening (and "block 1" isn't a ton of chronology).
-Will be be continuing the whole game with this many players in one thread? If so, can people, when spoilering conversations, maybe hint at who they're talking to or where the conversation's happening in the spoiler?
-Did I miss anything important in the plot yet?
-When people are doing status bars with their vital info, maybe more important right now would it be possible to have a brief description of who/what people actually are?
Yeah, it is a bit of a furball in the play thread, isn't it? Don't know just yet whether this excites or exasperates me.
1) The blocks thing refers to how many 4-hour periods (five in total) are available between the grand announcement and the start of the celebration event the following evening. These blocks can be used to talk with (or gather information about) the other player-led groups, prepare for the party itself, do last-minute supply gathering, and so forth. As the announcement--and it took place in Red Table Square, by the way, which is number 3 on the city map--has been made, I think you missed your opportunity to mingle there.
That still leaves the blocks for mingling, however. There are some rules involving just how many visitations or attempts to dig up information you can make in a single block. But the other side of that coin is that, between yourself, your cohort, and some competent followers, you can spread the load a bit.
2) There is some spoilering and call-outs going on already. The "A-team" thing, for instance, is a group conversation between the legacy players' characters. But as of block 1, there isn't much interaction between groups aside from that yet. It is mostly everyone getting their loose ends in order, or handling affairs--like getting appropriate clothing for the coming Gala--that only matter now as a result of their group's inclusion, as far I can see. I expect the interaction will pick up steam in subsequent blocks.
3) The only potentially pertinent plot point (unintentional alliteration, I assure you) right now is that any group not included by name in this expedition will be considered enemies of the new crown if they enter the Stolen Lands anyway; given status as bandits at best. That's probably (likely, actually) going to rub at least a few people raw. Depending on how insulted they feel about that little detail, or what sort of local connections they have, they might not wait for anyone to even leave Brevoy before starting some stuff.
4) Those status bars don't offer a lot of room for stuff as it stands. "Leader of the group" is about it, maybe, after the vital stuff has been added. An actual description, however brief, is not likely.
Okay, so... I'm having a TON of difficulty following this game so far. We've got a dozen players controlling 20 characters, each of whom is embroiled in conversations and long descriptive text posts. And it's absolutely impossible for me to tell what's going on, who if anyone is trying to talk to me, or who even most of the characters are (or whether I'm supposed to meet them). So:
Yeah, it is a bit of a furball in the play thread, isn't it? Don't know just yet whether this excites or exasperates me.
I would prefer people to put initial 'trying to contact' posts 'in the clear' - not inside spoilers - for exactly this sort of reason. Using :: An Indicator of Some Sort ::, whether in text or placed into the spoiler tag, to initially address someone or indicate you're trying to find them would definitely help, and Lyda, Darg and Theodric have taken this to heart, as have 'The A-Team' for their particular group conversation.
-Have we been given anything yet other than "mingle time?" Best I can follow, they just read out the proclamation, and certain random people are talking to each other in the crowd but not actually about anything yet other than small talk. I guess I could try to join in on that, but I can't actually tell who's talking to whom, or where in the city it's happening (and "block 1" isn't a ton of chronology).
1) The blocks thing refers to how many 4-hour periods (five in total) are available between the grand announcement and the start of the celebration event the following evening. These blocks can be used to talk with (or gather information about) the other player-led groups, prepare for the party itself, do last-minute supply gathering, and so forth. As the announcement--and it took place in Red Table Square, by the way, which is number 3 on the city map--has been made, I think you missed your opportunity to mingle there.
That still leaves the blocks for mingling, however. There are some rules involving just how many visitations or attempts to dig up information you can make in a single block. But the other side of that coin is that, between yourself, your cohort, and some competent followers, you can spread the load a bit.
You should probably first read my posts; within these I address not only specific people, but also the group as a whole (as indicated by me using :: Everyone ::). As Theodric says, I'm breaking down the time periods between the Announcement (1st Calistril 12:00 Noon) until the time of the party (2nd Calistril 6:00 PM) into discrete four-hour blocks of time so that I can run it relatively coherently, as well as having everyone on the same page at the same time.
The first time-block - what everyone's referred to as 'Block 1', from 1st Calistril 12:00 Noon to 4:00 PM - has been going on since the announcement, though considering you're only just getting into it now, apparently, I'd suggest you simply say that either you're double-checking your supplies and packing arrangements, or shopping for 'last-minute items' for the expedition. 'Block 2', from 4:00 until 8:00 PM, will kick off tomorrow night. In regards to placement, people are scattered across the city, as well as outside it.
-Will be be continuing the whole game with this many players in one thread? If so, can people, when spoilering conversations, maybe hint at who they're talking to or where the conversation's happening in the spoiler?
2) There is some spoilering and call-outs going on already. The "A-team" thing, for instance, is a group conversation between the legacy players' characters. But as of block 1, there isn't much interaction between groups aside from that yet. It is mostly everyone getting their loose ends in order, or handling affairs--like getting appropriate clothing for the coming Gala--that only matter now as a result of their group's inclusion, as far I can see. I expect the interaction will pick up steam in subsequent blocks.
Players? At times, yes. Characters? Not often, no. As stated in this key Discussion post, the end of the 'Dinner With Friends' will see the primary characters (PCs) go one way, and the cohorts go another - same number of players, fewer number of characters.
-Did I miss anything important in the plot yet?
3) The only potentially pertinent plot point (unintentional alliteration, I assure you) right now is that any group not included by name in this expedition will be considered enemies of the new crown if they enter the Stolen Lands anyway; given status as bandits at best. That's probably (likely, actually) going to rub at least a few people raw. Depending on how insulted they feel about that little detail, or what sort of local connections they have, they might not wait for anyone to even leave Brevoy before starting some stuff.
That particular plot point was cloaked in formal doublespeak, and would require a DC 25 Diplomacy check, DC 20 PS: Barrister check, or someone who made either of those checks to explain it to you.
-When people are doing status bars with their vital info, maybe more important right now would it be possible to have a brief description of who/what people actually are?
4) Those status bars don't offer a lot of room for stuff as it stands. "Leader of the group" is about it, maybe, after the vital stuff has been added. An actual description, however brief, is not likely.
I recommend keeping a pin on the aforementioned key Discussion post just to be able to reference who is leading which group, and basic information on group makeups. Particularly key to following the game, however, would be, well, following the game and being active in it, so you don't have to catch up with 90 or more posts all at once. :/
Got it. My first post had my character leaving the square early to dine at a nearby restaurant; I'll count on him rejoining the group late, in block 2, to shore things up.
It's less the number of posts I have an issue with, than the very large percentage that are not relevant to me (which makes it hard to keep track of where I am in reading everything and what's going on)
The Wyrm's Rule of Thumb for playing in a campaign: Read Everything. :P :) But feel free to post something about lingering over an ale or a brandy or something, and people coming in talking about who got selected and that sort of thing. (And people wondering what that 'one section' meant.)
(And yes, even though she loves the skies, Sylvia can actually do little with wind and lightning. Flight is one of her proudest accomplishments, as hard as she tries to master more of her favorite element. This will be RP'd, and she will be jealous of anyone who can call lightning, throw wind, or summon a storm. Ironically, Sylvia is jealous of Darivan's mastery of his lightning touch, while Darivan in turn is jealous of Sylvia's ability to teleport. Who knows, maybe they'll rub off on each other.)
You don't need to put spoilers in here.
Darivan:
There are plenty of theories, most of them mutually contradictory and - as previously stated - yet some of them still provable. The existence of the interplanetary teleport spell is, honestly, not going to be common knowledge except amongst certain high-level mages with an interest in such things, and/or with the influence to get some real information out of the elves. The prevailing theory of planetary arrangement, however, is likely to be Ptolemaic geocentric, with a growing group arguing between the Copernicus and the Brahe heliocentric models. The (scientifically accurate) Kepler model, in essence, doesn't exist yet.
Referring to Numeria - though they have hugely advanced technology, neither the tech nor the information behind it hasn't reached most of their own people (Kellid barbarians) yet, much less the world at large.
Aolis, and Everone:
Also do you have any names of the people that will be at the party? Such as the mayor. Or is even just knowing the names of the main guest/organizers a gather information check? I would think that information was common knowledge for weeks but wanted to make sure one way or the other.
Names of organizers is common knowledge; the complete guest list is not, which is in part why I was allowing the legacy players to go out (and have their followers go out) to discover who was on it. Also, the complete guest list (besides the PCs, their cohorts, and the other leaders of their group and their cohorts) is something like another hundred names, and may include a spouse or permission to bring along a few members of their school, in the case of the Swordlords themselves. If you ICly want the complete RSVP'd list, then it'll be a Gather Information check with a DC of 25; a less-complete list of those to whom invitations went will be a DC of 20.
Hey GM that Golden Company will send that runner for me right? Or do I just automatically know where dinner is? No pressure, just had a thought.
Who are the organizers?
The stewards of the mayor and the king, i.e. Oskar Vorwilde and ... *goes to get a new random name* Magdalena Tavèar. You've met the first during the interview, but not the second.
And yes, the Golden Company will send a runner to your current place of residence in order to summon you; it'll undoubtedly be at the same place you've met them before (either one of their homes or else an exclusive restaurant or social club, don't care/haven't decided which), so you know where you'll be going, just not when they want you to be there.
Posting later tonight, just as an FYI.
:: Everyone ::
I will not condone unattributed use of other peoples' work. If you say your character(s) have written a poem (whether in a background or in a post) or are singing a folk song, please provide (in a spoiler tab) proper attribution and a link of some sort to the source materiel. If, on the other hand, you post (as being part of the game-world or something your character wrote) something original, then by all means let us know that, too, because I very much appreciate it. (FYI - 'The Chaining of the Rough Beast' is indeed an original of mine, though it is rhythmically based off 'The Song of Hiawatha' which is in turn based off the Finnish epic saga-poem 'The Kalevala'.)
Is... something on the schedule for block 2? I thought that was when people were meeting for the portrait? But most of the posts in that time period just say "block 2" without saying who's where, or with whom, and I'm still not quite sure what's happening at this point.
Is... something on the schedule for block 2? I thought that was when people were meeting for the portrait? But most of the posts in that time period just say "block 2" without saying who's where, or with whom, and I'm still not quite sure what's happening at this point.
Block 2 refers the second of the five, 4-hour-long segments available get stuff done before the party. The party itself is where the portrait will be done, and that's not happening until Block 5 is over and done with.
Time is:
- Announcement at Red Square Table;
- Block 1;
- Block 2;
- Block 3;
- Sleep!
- Wake! (s!@!, shower, and shave in whatever order you like, apply the last as needed. Mind the water, it's cold!);
- Block 4;
- Block 5;
- Party time! Mingle, eat fancy foods, try not be an obvious slob, don't start any feuds you can't end, and otherwise have a grand old time. Pose for some art that kids will yawn over in a few hundred years. GM TWO throws over a table, and s+&$ gets real!
Per TWO's requirement, all rolls and ooc notices are to be spoilered, and he further suggested that the highly mundane "Block 'x' tag be reserved for that purpose, while any other spoilered story stuff (if we feel the need to do that, it isn't a hard requirement) be given a more descriptive tag.
Hope that helps you out some :).
The problem with using *just* the block name as identifying info, and using it for every single post (spoilered, or bolded, or whatever) is it means every player needs to read through every post to figure out what is and isn't relevant to them.
The problem with using *just* the block name as identifying info, and using it for every single post (spoilered, or bolded, or whatever) is it means every player needs to read through every post to figure out what is and isn't relevant to them.
Oh, I get what you mean now!
I mean, it's not really that much to read is it? As TWO has said a few times, it's supposed to read like a novel, so maybe try thinking of it like that? It worked for me, anyway.
Plus, you never know if you might find something important about the other characters or what they're thinking, even OOC, that you might want to use as a hook or bait later on in a conversation with them.
And actually, I've encouraged people to NOT spoiler things - only if it's a particular group-location-thing, like the 'A-Team' meet.
In regards to making Diplomacy rolls to gether info on any group headed by a PC - please don't. Because I want you people to interact with each other, all you'll get is 'where can I find them / where do they live', which is not only automatic, but you'll be easily able to find the place in the time it takes to walk casually to it. (Unless you're Tai, who apparently wants to know where the majority of the Steel Fist members are right now - and once he gets there, they've already left the chaos and destruction behind them, questing for another inn to convert into rubble!! ;) )
Just post that you're going after / arriving at their inn, or camp, or whichever, put some sort of highlight of :: The PC's Name :: in there, and don't talk to me - talk to them!!
Okay, so I have a couple of questions for some of the more ambiguous and variable spells (specifically prestidigitation and illusions at the moment). Also, will creative use of spells ever grant a circumstance bonus to a skill check?
What sort of things can prestidigitation do? Can it make something glow, say with the intensity of a candle, or create a quiet sound (like bells tingling)? Can it create glowing motes, like fireflies, or make a tiny and obviously fake illusion (like making a pointer arrow an inch long)? Can it light candles? Could it be used to write temporary messages? (I’m thinking something along the lines of making charcoal, using that to write on paper, and then the writing would fade after an hour). What are the limits for its recoloring ability? Could it make patterns out of different colors, even if it's only one color at a time? Can it create gentle breezes (noticeable, but not affecting anything stat-wise)? Could I use it to make shapes out of smoke (like Gandalf)?
How much do you like illusions? Do enemies automatically get a save against any illusions I cast, even before interacting? What counts as interaction, and what counts as automatic disbelief? Could I use silent image to create a small bank of fog, obscuring vision? Once I cast an illusion, can I still move it? For example, I cast an illusion of a statue. Could I make that statue move, as though it were a Golem or some such? For that matter, could I cast an illusion of a wizard casting a spell, and then have the illusion create an illusion of that spell? (And then if the illusionary wizard is casting an illusion of a sorcerer, which then casts an illusion of a….) Also, how much can my illusion change? If I were to cast an illusion of a staff, could I then change the illusion to make it look like the staff is turning into a snake, and then growing in size, and so on? Can illusions shed light? If an enemy succeeds on a spellcraft check and sees I’m casting an illusion, do they automatically disbelieve, get a free save with no bonus, or get a free save with a +4 bonus?
… Sorry… I like giving examples (as you may have already noticed).
For that matter, could I cast an illusion of a wizard casting a spell, and then have the illusion create an illusion of that spell?
Technically, you can, but remember, you need to spend an action to concentrate on it. I have played a wizard that could concentrate on three illusions at once, but its usually a standard action to concentrate unless you have one of two abilities that let you concentrate on it as a swift action. This means that yes, you can create an illusion of a wizard casting a spell, and I guess you can cast an illusion of the spell (probably Shadow Conjuration / Evocation works best), but you need to concentrate on both to pull that off - and obviously, enemies can pull off spellcraft checks each time a spell gets cast. You would also probably need to be invisible or something - unless you can hide your spellcasting.
In general, if you are reality warping, think about how you would react personally when you saw the illusion. If I saw a staff, then changing to a snake, and then increasing in size - I'd probably call b%!!#*@@ (I'd also be making spellcraft checks since you are changing the illusion each time).Something like Fog, maybe while unnatural, might be realistic if I know there is a caster around. Oh yeah, and watch out for True Seeing :x
Yeah, I know. The problem comes up largely with table-to-table varying how illusions work. Even a quick search on the forums would give you a dozen "conclusive," yet incredibly varying, ways that illusions work.
But also look at it from another perspective. Simply making someone look at my illusion and say "magic" is easy. A burning halo over my head, glowing eyes, and giant (illusory) wings behind me has its uses, but what if I want to save spells? Then I cast an illusion of my staff, and then make it turn into a snake, which grows bigger and gets wings. All of a sudden, my basic illusion of a staff can be mutated (through discrete steps) into a dragon. Basically what I'm asking is how mutable illusions are.
The wizard was an example of how to get around standard 'mutability' issues (for example, silent image specifies *an* object, which, depending on table ruling, could be *extremely* limiting).
In this case, I have an illusion up of a wizard that then casts a spell and conjures a dragon. Later on, that same illusory wizard (having maintained concentration) conjures an illusory wall, and that functions as though I had cast my own illusion for that wall.
But consider a similar example, but where illusions are infinitely mutable. Instead of a wizard, I have an illusion of a small silver bracelet on my wrist. When I need a dragon, I change the illusion so that the bracelet flies off my wrist and turns into a dragon. Then, once I no longer need the dragon, I change the illusion back into a bracelet. Later on, when I need an illusory wall, I simply turn the bracelet into a wall.
See? it's the same result, all told, but in the first example, most people (who don't hate illusions, anyway) would agree that that's within an image spell's power. Whereas the second one, some people would complain that that's out of the range of an image spell's ability.
In any case, hopefully we won't run into true seeing for a couple more levels, and I can have all kinds of fun in the meantime.
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In this case, I have an illusion up of a wizard that then casts a spell and conjures a dragon. Later on, that same illusory wizard (having maintained concentration) conjures an illusory wall, and that functions as though I had cast my own illusion for that wall.
Regarding your example, I'm pretty sure its against the intent of the spell to adjust your illusion. I'm pretty sure it specifies *an* illusion of *something*. There are pretty crucial differences in your examples I think, but without knowing how you intend to concentrate and cast a spell in the same round - its hard for me to debate this.
I'm not casting a spell. That's the tricky bit. I'm concentrating on an illusion of a wizard casting a spell. That's what's iffy. I'm concentrating on an illusion of an illusion.
If you are going to ask me a question about a spell or spells, even if it's a general category like Illusion, please give me a particular spell you'd be using.
In general, an illusion is meant to change somewhat, but this is in part entirely dependent on the specific spell. An illusion of a mage can appear to cast a spell, yes. Typically, however, the illusory spell is going to have to appear to affect only the mage himself, or a small area around him, the specific size (generally just his 5' square) depending on the AoE of your specific illusion spell - a large AoE for your illusion might enable an 'aura' effect of some sort, or a very restricted area on the spell.
Here's the catch - your initial illusion ('the mage' and his 5' square) is the complex thing you're concentrating on; any additions have to be simple. As well, that illusion becomes the center of effect for any add-on you create. An illusory wall of iron, a relatively simple effect? If it's a powerful illusion spell you've cast, then it might be a ring of iron surrounding the mage, but it won't be only to one side.
In addition, any significant change - essentially, any time the illusion begins to do something fantastic, whether that's casting a spell or transforming the staff into a snake, or adding wings to the snake - your illusion's subjects/victims are going to get another chance to see through it. Why? Because of the sudden and increased possibility that you screwed up on something.
Note the specifications of 'begins to do' and 'fantastic', however. The statue suddenly moving (and maybe speaking) is one thing; the thing continuing to move and speak, or your illusory wizard speaking, is another. Boiling it down, the initial spellcasting establishes the standard expectations. Statues don't move; people can speak and move. Changing that standard (the statue moving, the person casting a spell) allows for another saving throw. If your illusory mage simply stood there, staff in one hand and wand in the other, threatening the subjects of the spell, then you're fine; once he starts pulling crazy sh!t out of his ass, your illusion starts walking on shaky ground, and sooner or later someone's going to see through it. Establish that there's a bracelet on your wrist, and people are fine with it; transform the bracelet into a dragon, and people get the chance to say 'WTF?!?'
In specific regards to prestidigitation:
Prestidigitation is not an illusion spell; it's a 'magical shortcut' spell. It cleans, dirties, and moves things; if it's creating a thing, then the thing is an exceptionally crude and fragile example of its type, and changing it (such as your 'create a stick of wood, char the wood, then write with it') is not going to 'occur naturally', but fully destroy the object; the faux-stick doesn't char, it disintegrates completely. While it can flavor something bland, its flavors are going to be equivalent to using one or two common spices, not turning something completely bland into a top chef's creation. It can warm a cold meal up to make it edible; it can cool warm beer down to make it drinkable. If you wanted to leave a message, you could restrict the 'coloration' effect to that area traced by your finger; that, of course, would fade after an hour. Otherwise, it's a very basic spell, and the more complex you try to get with it, the sooner it falls flat.
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Yeah, and that right there - is going beyond the capacity of Silent Image.
You can create an illusion of someone casting a spell, yes. If if you actually want that spell cast - then you need to do it yourself.
To be clear, roughly the closest spells in print, to what you do, are Project Image (7th level), or Psychic Image (9th Level psychic spell). Therefore if it was me, I would rule you would be unable to pull off a similar trick with Major Image (3rd level). You couldn't do the trick with Silent Image because you would usually need verbal components for the majority of spells - and silent image isn't going to let your illusion speak.
I think you would be really really really pushing the boundaries of what the spell allows you to do.
EDIT
Damn, got ninja'd
Okay, that clears up my questions on prestidigitation and illusion mutability. Thanks. Is there any minor spell I can use to replicate the dim glow that Darivan’s hand gives off on a regular basis, since prestidigitation won’t work?
Specifically, I’m wondering at the moment about silent image, which is, for now at least, the only figment in my repertoire. Later, I’ll likely add more, but that’s it for now.
Oh, one thing I almost forgot. What’s your stance on spell manifestations? If Sylvia wants to quietly change her hair color with prestidigitation, is there a giant glowing rune and loud trumpet sounds that instantly let everybody in the city know that she just cast a spell? Or is there just a little sprinkling of pixie dust over her head that you’d need to be looking for to spot?
Also, I agree that my example is pushing the limits of an illusion. I simply chose a somewhat absurd example to highlight my question (I am somewhat overfond of examples).
The spell's manifestation is the spell. There's no 'pixie dust' effect; her hair simply changes color, though please note that I rate hair still growing out of your head as being part of you and, therefore, 'alive'. Sylvia can color a wig with prestidigitation; not her own hair color. If there's a canon example of this being done, I will consider modifying the ruling, but I expect a hair-color-changing spell to be 1st level, and probably lasting for hours/lvl, if not days/lvl.
Getting back to the spell manifestation thing, as I said - no manifestation beyond what the spell is, and/or what the spell requires in the nature of the casting. As I understand it, a verbal spell component is not a quiet pronouncement, but clearly stated in at least a standard conversational volume, and just as typically not standard speech; the few exceptions to the latter are those things that are cast as part of standard speech, which are commonly charms and the like, meant to be worked into the conversation. But those are few and far between.
Closest thing to canon is a trap in PFS (First Steps) that turns everyone's skin blue (and lists Prestidigitation as its key spell ingredient.
First Steps I: In Service to Lore:
Prank Trap CR 1/2
Type magic; Perception DC 15; Disable Device DC 15
Effects
Trigger touch; Reset automatic
Effect spell effect (prestidigitation, turns skin blue
for 3d20 minutes, Will DC 11 resists); multiple
targets (all creatures within 10 feet)
Based on this, I'd rule that it can change natural hair color (for about an hour at a time)
Good example; so ruled.
Please note that doing so will do exactly what you expect it to do - make you stick out like a sore thumb. This can occasionally have a benefit, but it usually won't.
sorry for my absence for a couple of days - I have a class this morning and table game this afternoon... I will try to get caught up tonight.
Okay, thanks. These sorts of things are exactly why I'm experimenting in a non plot-pivotal paint, and rather just interaction with other PCs, to work out all the bugs and things I'm doing wrong. Thanks for bearing with me. Could Darivan and Ardafax telepathically communicate while he just has his hand resting on the hilt?
And while I agree that having fluorescent hair can be something of a disadvantage, Sylvia's main goal at this point is to be noticed, so....
I have family stuff this weekend, so posting is challenging.
Paizo was down quite a bit yesterday, seems fine today though so far
So, I got slammed at work, and got behind in this (massive) game. I'm working on catching up, but it is taking a bit of time.
I threw something together that is helping me get a handle on things, and I thought I would share it with the group as a whole. It is a site called Trello, and I created a board for this game, with cards for each major character (and the occasional follower, where it makes sense), with labels attached to each character for their group. The labels colors can be changed, but there are only 10 possible colors, so I left them all uncolored and assigned colors to any currently active groups. Then I added columns for each location that is currently active, and moved the appropriate cards for those present. Anyway, a highly technical approach, but it is helping me get an understanding of it, and I wanted to offer it up to others as well. Here is the link: board
If you would like to be added to the board to make your own updates (anyone is welcome to do so), using this link will supposedly (never tried it before) automatically add you as a member: member link
I will hopefully be posting something later this evening or tomorrow.
That is pretty neat with the cards there, good job!
Not pushing GM since boards have been down and I'm sure everyone is busy but I cannot move Amavin foward. Just wanted her to finish her chat with the Golden Compamy before block 3 starts ;)
No, my doofusishness. On it!
Kyras - GREAT find/idea with the board. I am abusing it even as I write!! ;)
Lol, I didn't want to check until I saw what the GM had to say about it. Once he's approved, let's have a look :)
Not pushing GM since boards have been down and I'm sure everyone is busy but I cannot move Amavin foward. Just wanted her to finish her chat with the Golden Compamy before block 3 starts ;)
I need something from Alysandra too.