@GM TWO - I never heard back from you if it's reasonable to have a wagon with some ox for the frozen flame, and how much I can spend from each character's gear budget to supplement it?
William has cows and bulls. And as far as I can see there's no limit to how much you can supplement you're "caravan". Just going off the original recruitment post.
@Conceal Spell - They have actually fixed the Conceal Spell feat way before they even decided to print it! Check out the Cunning Caster feat. It does the same thing but with much less flopping about. You even get rewarded for Still or Silent spells! (And even better if you are a psychic caster :P)
@Darivan. We can know each other, works for me.
@GM sorry for unspoiled rolls, the spoiler tag got deleted during my cleanup pass.
:: Conceal Spell/Cunning Caster ::
'Whatevs.' The interpretation of Conceal Spell looks to be right to me, however. I should note that there is a subtle but significant difference between the two: with 'Conceal Spell', you can be interacting with people while you cast the spell, while with 'Cunning Caster', you have to be focused entirely on the spellcasting. Given both sorts of spellcasting in identical situations, a person would suspect the 'Cunning Caster' mage before the 'Conceal Spell' mage; the latter was 'clearly not casting a spell', while with the former 'I don't know what he was doing over there in the corner'. To boot, if you're doing it in combat, opponents still get an AoO on the Cunning Caster, because though they may not appear to be distracted by casting a spell, they're clearly still distracted by something, and thus provoke an AoO; not so with the Conceal Spell caster.
Yes, Conceal Spell is more difficult to pull off. It offers greater rewards for doing so, however.
:: Wagons, etc. ::
You may purchase gear for yourself and your followers. Buying it for NPCs (such as the other mages of the Frozen Flame) is, well, throwing money away. One should assume that the other significant members of your particular group are taking care of their own people, if they have them; not all of them do, and so can spend all their money on their jealous selves. My very strong advice is to focus on yourself, your cohort, and your own followers, but if you're really determined to give your money to NPCs, go ahead.
I will note that while an ox is stronger and theoretically able to haul more stuff, it is also slower and more likely to panic. While when hauling a wagon (std. base 16 miles/day) this doesn't really matter, there are very, very few oxen trained as riding or combat animals ...
:: Spoilers ... ::
Thanks for the apology. Remember!! ;)
:: Otherwise ::
Posting a bit later; family time now.
@GM: Thank you. In that case, I'll wait for the errata on Conceal Spell before considering it. That rank-limit can't seriously be intended on double opposed checks.
@Velar: Good find with the Cunning Caster, but if the GM call says it's noticeable if you interact with someone, it will not do for my purposes. I wanted to be able to throw up illusions without anybody getting suspicious. I suppose invisibility/silent spell is the only way to do so reliably, omitting any interactions taking place at the same time.
I didn't say it was suspicious (or at least not automatically) or noticeable as spellcasting - that's the whole point of both feats. Even with Cunning Caster, if you succeed at your rolls and they fail at theirs, they feel that whatever you might have been doing it wasn't spellcasting, because it didn't have the usual spellcasting schticks of 'yelling and waving your hands'. (Though they still get an AoO as appropriate.) It's simply that between the two Conceal Spell is even less suspicious, per se.
I doubt there's going to be errata on Conceal Spell, though. Note that 'Improved Conceal Spell' eliminates the spell-level bonus; another feat, granted.
My illusionist dipped Veiled Illusionist PrC, which at level 2 allows you to confuse people who roll spellcraft and misdirect them further. It got even trippier when she tried using it with Shadow spells "its the real thing this time, honest!". Not saying that this works for your build/flavor, but its worth mentioning if you were looking at stuff like that.
My problem is that Perception is already the most widely used skill in the game. Many people(including NPC's) will try to get a decent bonus.
Those with class skills? +3 flat, Alertness(from familiar?) +2/+4, racial boni(keen senses) +2, diverse buffs(Heightened Awareness), +2, diverse items, +x...if a Human with Focused Study picks up Skill Focus(Perception) +3/+6...
with the rank-limitation, it becomes impossible to further raise the DC, meaning people will passively(without even needing to roll) beat the DC around mid-game. Even with the Improved Conceal Spell negating the additional penalty.
It's not a complaint, I was simply wondering if your reading differed from the RAW making it all but unuseable.
@Amavin: I like Veiled Illusionist, but not helping, here. It should really be "hidden". The idea was to really be able to throw up an illusion without everybody knowing whats going on.
Say we run into a hostile group on the road...adding some illusionary soldiers circling around at the side of the road that I can point out to them("you are outnumbered...") could be helpful.
Or needing a diversion, and creating the illusion of a fire to draw attention elsewhere(without people pointing at me and suspecting I caused said fire in the first place).
No worries. As said, once we become Mythic, Fabulous Figments will help mechanically on people not knowing it IS an illusion. But I would have preferred if they did not even know it was a spell.
*shrug*
Maybe I'll look towards picking up a PrC with Bardic Performance down the road, and go with Spellsong(which, aside from the need for Bardic Performance, does exactly what is needed - one opposed check I can buff, with no penalties attached).
Thanks all. I'll let this one rest for the time being. I simply wanted to get it clarified and out of the way right at the start, in case I would have wanted to swap a feat or move a skill around post-recruitment.
I'd say that's when you need people to conceal your material components behind, Still and Silent Spell feats, metamagic rods, and/or PrCs that assist that sort of thing. No offense, but the character classes you picked for Nimue lend more towards the concept of 'harmonize magic with nature, oppose magical evil' that they seem to me to be designed for. A subtle illusion specialist ... really doesn't seem to me to be in the cards for the character classes you selected for her. Sorry if the hip-shot analysis seems harsh, but that's what I'm seeing - you going left, then trying to zag right. :/
Na, it's just that, a hip-shot analysis.
She is still a gnome, getting a racial bonus to illusion. She can pick up(and has on the progression plan) the racial Casual Illusionist as well as Effortless Trickery.
Same with Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus Illusion, and the Mythic Spell Focus+Fabulous Figments.
She is NOT a specialist Wizard, a Shadow Sorcerer, or a Bard(which seems the target of the discussed Feats).
But the reason for that is simply flexibility. Your concept read is fine, she is harmonizing with nature and thats a big deal. Doesn't mean that is the only thing she can do, nor does it mean she has to be a one-trick-pony to be an effective illusionist.(which, incidentally, is a bad idea considering table variance on illusions, unless one goes in knowing exactly how the GM will handle things - I did read some of the earlier discussions in this thread but it's still a very...complex school of magic).
Matter of Fact, most of the DC-stacking for Illusion will be utilized to get mileage out of the Shadow-Based Spells, for further versatility. (Basically duplicating the raw first-world magic of creation to produce emergent spell effects that are only quasi-real...only with shadow since thats the mechanically viable way to do so)
But when she already has quite significant skill when it comes to illusions, it would have been nice to use it in additional ways, too.
I was simply wondering if there was a way to do something I wanted. As of now, no such way exists and thats fine. PbP moves slowly, and there may well be a Feat eventually that works for Nimue.
As said, thanks for your time.
I mean to add this earlier, but while Paizo gives us a "1BP = 4000 gp" for the easy conversion cost, a Build Point is more of an abstract that is supposed to represent not just money, but also labor, base resources (wood, stone, etc) as well as other things usually involved in undertaking a major construction project. Thus, while in Kingdom Building rules, a house costs 3 BP, as Kaellin said, that represents several houses, and it represents more than gold, it also represents labor and raw material costs.
I hope that makes a little more sense than one house equalling 12,000 gp.
Also, one option in the Kingdom Building rules is to have the BP-gp conversion rate be gradual as your kingdom grows. When the kingdom is 25 hexes or smaller, you can invest just 1,000 gp for 1 BP. The idea is that when you're starting small, people are more willing to do more for less, and as you grow, you need more gold to grease the wheels of bureaucracy to get stuff done.
I'm aware. I was slightly poking fun of the absurdity of the gold-BP conversion rate when I said a house was cheaper than your own personal demiplane. Could you imagine?
"Oh, yeah. That house is nice, right in downtown Absalom, but have you considered extraplanar estate? One of my other clients is selling his demiplane. Great place, self-sustaining ecosystem, warm climate, very healing atmosphere, and you don't need to eat as long as you stay inside."
Couldn't come up with a gameplay post to add so commenting on Aramil here.
Tension: I get what your saying. Most nature classes are poor in social settings. Deneb was built in defiance of that. He's got a +10 in diplomacy. Nothing like Amazin's +17 but also not a -1 like one of my other characters. For him specifically, he has a decent chance. Lyda took her comment as a personal affront to her friend and stepped in to defend. She's not used to social situations, in a large group, and very defensive over her close friends. People that have accepted her despite her appearance. (Which I am sad it is not causing as much drama as I had hoped. You pick an odd race for the RP potential and nothing happens is disappointing.) Lyda's not likely to come down for a while unless Amavin apologies, selfish as that might be. Someonne else is going to have to toss out an Olive Branch first. But now they both feel like they are being ganged up on so even Deneb is loosing his cool.
I expected tension at this point and don't mind at all being the in the middle. Zero hard feelings OOC. Rustled Jimmies IC.
*shrug* If you pick an odd race and want attention, you should point that out. Odd races were limited during recruitment, but not to the point that they are exotic anomalies that people need to stare at, whispering to each other in hushed voices.
You are one of many, many Tieflings. Some may never had dealings with Tieflings before, but they would not handle them differently.
If I'm getting a co-worker in a wheel-chair, I'll not give him drama over his handicap either. (Example chosen considering that your appearance COULD be seen as a handicap if you expected drama over it)
I'll treat him like any other colleague. If he wants to be treated differently, he'll let me know, and I may or may not comply.
@Tension: My characters have a 8 and 9 in Diplomacy, too. It seemed relevant to at least reliable support those focusing on it, considering the setting.
I also have decent survival, perception, knowledge geography and knowledge nature on both of them. Because it's wilderness exploration time sooner or later.
In both cases, there will be others, who will be able to do the tasks better - and I will gladly step back and let them take the stage.
I can always fill those roles in situations where my betters are not in the same group. *shrug* That said, if weather allows, my Hunter-Follower would definitely sit on one of the Wagons and have his Hawk circle around the Caravan for aerial surveillance.
Anyway, the whole discussion was my fault as well, but it kind of irks me that this (ultimately pointless) drama played out in front of the king. Lets try and act professional in front of him ;) we can have fun when he's asleep *smile*
Plus, I maintain the idea of 4-person "fire teams". Considering action economy and overall framework balancing, that is easiest to balance for, and least likely to take too long.
So I'm proposing that for gameplay and streamlining reasons. In-Character, I would be fine with whatever is decided. We can all grasp each others hands and walk in a wide line singing for all I case, but smaller groups than 4 become vulnerable to action economy disablers, and larger groups to slow-downs. *shrug*
Just thought I should clarify that while I gave a proper in-game reason, it's actually a streamlining issue I meant to address with the suggestion.
Chalms call, I guess.
Personally, I feel the best course of action would be to have scouts- perhaps invisible, perhaps really good at stealth, perhaps flying, maybe wildshaped, but all perceptive-in groups of two. Then, if they spot a threat, they can relay what they've found to some of the riders (group 2), who can move in with a group of variable size and neutralize the threat.
Aye, but as with real life, groups of two can easily both fail their check, or be distracted. That is why fire-teams are usually 4-8 people in the military.
So that threat may well spot them first. Or even at the same time, making the "relay information and bring reinforcements" into a race against time, plus if you want a central rider group to dispatch units, you can't spread out very far, so we would probably need to split that rider group into central, left and right anyway if we want to cover more ground.
At least that was the consideration that originally led me to considering simply attaching some of the riders directly to the scout groups, a 100-300 feet behind them depending on terrain.
Again, I'm, all fine with whatever is decided, or however people want to handle it. What I don't want is being alone on an open field scouting ahead or riding to a group that called for help when a flight of 4 advanced Wyverns decide that me and my cohort look tasty and start their attack run.
Just mentioning this ooc Lyda, that the reason Amavin brought this up, is because she /doesn't/ know Deneb. She saw the point about multiple groups of rangers paired with druids and a comment then saying they can handle a difficult social situation. Amavin knows she is good in social situations (its why shes been hired in her group), but she also knows there are people she considers even better than her. She isn't pushing for the position herself (and thinks that really, there only needs to be 1 person they can call on if required), she's actually pushing for Alysandra who Amavin (rightly or wrongly), believes is far better than her. She didn't mention Alysandra by name, because she thought it rude to name drop without checking to see of Alysandra felt about it.
If Deneb/Lyda took offence, then thats ok, but Amavin probably isn't going to be apologising because she thinks she's made a fair call, because theres at least going to be one scouting party that won't have Deneb in it, and even then, if something calls for Diplomacy, she would rather trust someone she knows has a reputation for a silver tongue, as opposed to someone as a reputation towards a different skill.
Deneb/Lyda are welcome to call her arrogant but Amavin doesn't think so, the fact that with full knowledge over her own strengths, that shes recommending someone other than herself to act as a diplomatic adviser indicates her philosophy for the best person for the job.
I'm not seeking to convince Deneb/Lyda OOC that what she said is ok, but that if they are hanging out for an apology, its going to be a /long/ while.
RE Scouting
To be honest, Amavin always pictured druids wildshaping out alone (or at least scouting out at a wider range. Absolutely perfect scouting machines that are not going to really draw much interest or threat. Thats not to say that hunters / rangers don't have use (they absolutely do), but when a druid as the perfect disguise in a natural setting, I don't know why you pair it up with someone else without that ability. No-ones going to look twice at a bird flying overhead so why tie it to someone on the ground?
So, I would rather a druid with wildshape scout alone, getting swift overviews of the area and then pair non wildshape nature experts in mini groups to fan out and for for the detailed "ranging", with a mounted group (you don't need a lot because trees, undergrowth etc is going to restrict a cavalry charge, but they are good for swift mobilization) on standby for any urgent threat.
RE Lyda 's race
Yeah, Amavin is being polite by not stereotyping it or mentioning it, letting Lydra prove to her what sort of Tiefling she is. She isn't defining her by her race, instead letting her show what type of person she is in words and deeds. Other people, or NPC's might act differently, but thats how Amavin handles it.
I think we can all agree the KKK, neo-nazi's and west borough baptist church are bad people. So a better comparison for a Tiefling would be the child of one of these groups and for some odd reason always carried physical proof of that. Hood, swastika, anti-gay t-shirt. I think most people would, at the very least, feel uneasy speaking to these people even if they seem perfectly pleasant. Others might not even give them the time of day or become belligerent. That's what I think Tieflings are. Their very appearance elicits a negative response in most.
And I have mentioned it in game. I get that most adventurers have seen a lot and aren't usually judgmental but if you pick a weird race and don't get some RP potential from it then its just a mechanical choice. You're one of gang almost immediately and its little bit of a let down.
It's because the picture only has those cute little horns. ;) Otherwise it just looks like 'strawberry brunette in armor'.
Actually, if you hadn't mentioned the horns I wouldn't have noticed them.
Oh, and sorry about Laszlo's post. I only now realised that you posted as King Chalm while I was writing (yes, took me a while, interruptions, you know...).
Given what King Chalm just said before me, probably Laszlo's response would be a bit different, saying he's at the King's service but suggesting their capabilities would be better suited for the second group.
Theodric has the perfect excuse, in that he hasn't seen anything odd about Lyda in the least ;p.
And Darvan? His first real exposure to Lyda is this chat session with the King right now. He would assume a thorough vetting by those in charge before she ever crossed the threshold to begin with, so why start some drama where it isn't needed?
TWO, I've got a technical issue with the maps there; my tablet doesn't actually let me use those maps' various editing bits. I can look at 'em, no problem. But nothing else.
So I'll actually need someone else to pilot my little tokens around to spoilered directions, if possible. And on that very subject, Darvan parks his butt at F-12, while Theodric grabs a random seat in the nearer blue section, probably next to Selene if she's still offering an arm as guidance.
I'm away from my computer for most of today, I'll do the token pasting as well as a post later tonight.
I got you, Theodric. I put you at nearly the top left, right on the edge. Seemed like a logical spot to put a blind man.
TWO, if I have the listed material components for a spell on-hand (such as a pinch of dust and a drop of water for sleet storm), can I cast the spell?
Also, is there a strength check that could be made to likewise reduce the action required?
GM- Where are the Vikontesse and the Sarenite sitting?
@Lyda: I understand what you mean. But specifically in this setting, you are actually helping explain why you are not getting that kind of RP potential out of it.
So you're that KKK child with a swastika tattoo and anti-LBGT-shirt.
Furthermore, you just applied for the same kind of middle-management position at Google as I did. And you got the job, same as me.
Human resources is not my task. If you got through the pre-screening of Google and they decided you are fit for the task, then I'll not stupidly accuse those same people who approved ME for the job of not doing THEIR job proper.
And criticing someone they picked out would be doing just that.
As on a inter-personal basis, you would be surprised. I have, in real life, friends from multiple extremes of the political spectrum...I do try and be open, unless they make the mistake of trying to "convert" me...in which case I don't care if they are extremists of any sort or mainstream. I suppose that liberal viewpoints gets represented in my characters. I'll never give you trouble for who you ARE. I give you trouble for what you DO.(so there's your RP potential right there. Act like your stereotypical KKK tiefling, and you get your stereotypical responses, too)
^_^
That said:
@GM: I am on a combined family/business trip, and later that week, at a funeral. Posting will be...spotty - I'll try and keep up to date on my games, but no promises.
Hmm. Valid point. I made it through HR so I must be on the up and up.
We're also on our best behavior in front of the king, and honestly playing imaginary racists sounds exhausting and not particularly fun. If you really want to explore overcoming prejudice I'll task one of my level three followers with being a bigot about tieflings at some point in the future and we can figure that scene out collaboratively, but I'm not signing up for that in every scene because it's just not fun to be the foil there.
Selene and Samantha are widely traveled and cosmopolitan. You could be a hellknight and they'd be polite at a party, much less this event.
A Character Image List has been added to the first 'Informational' spoiler tab; I intend to use it as a wonderful, wonderful shortcut for mapping. You can also consult it to see who is in what scene (as this is how I'm going to keep myself updated, at least in a way) and as a reference for what image goes with each person, especially when it comes to the maps. The images are in order, first by priority (PCs, Cohorts, Long-Term NPCs, Current NPCs), then (generally) by first-name alphabetical order.
:: Binding Cords ::
*goes through the Damaging Objects page* Because of what is used (leather cord) and the fact that there's very little room to get your fingers under it for pulling, as well as the fact that though it's thinner cord, it's also wound several times, I feel confident in using the same DC as for silk rope - DC 24. This will reduce the time once, so STR DC 24 + Sharp Knife, or STR DC 24 + DC 18 Sleight of Hand will make it a move action; just the STR DC 24 will make it one full-round action.
:: People Placement ::
Vikontesse Elena Comăneci is seated at the high table, to the left of the Aldori, and three down from the King; the Sarenite (Zámoždom Duchovný) is in the lower quarter of tables, relatively close to the high end (i.e. nearer the high table) but not right there. (He's the purple one there.)
I have since uploaded everyone's iconography to both the aforementioned character image page as well as to the map; those of you who placed yourself on the map, you're where you put yourself (though I did nudge one or two people down a bit in order to have the classic 'male-female-male-female' seating arrangements). For those who hadn't yet gotten around to it, I've more-or-less randomly placed you within the recommended zones, and hid the zones. (If you want to see the zones,
:: Spellcasting ::
If you can convince me that you just happened to have some dust in the pockets of your good clothes - real dust, not grit from the road or belly-button lint, but stuff you'd find on the shelves indoors after a month of being left alone - or whatever else you'd need for whatever spell you want to cast, sure, I have no problem with that. I think it to be unlikely, but I refuse to say it's impossible. (And after all, I think almost all of the spellcaster cohorts made 'my spell-component pouch' their 'primary weapon', eh? Since this sort of thing won't matter for the PCs.)
:: Politesse ::
There are bigots in the world; I just have to remember to properly apply them. I will say that the River Kingdoms have fewer than most; it's a very 'live and let live' sort of society, with the caveat of 'if you're weak, I want what you got'. (Which, after all, is what Chalm is trying to set out to stop, at least in his domain.)
... with the caveat of 'if you're weak, I want what you got'. (Which, after all, is what Chalm is trying to set out to stop, at least in his domain.)
And, ironically, is what Chalm himself will be using to stake and enforce his claim to Kradira's future existence, at least initially; if the residents were strong enough to hold him back, he wouldn't be heading that way to begin with. I wonder if he's aware of that? He probably is.
@Darivan: Much obliged for the assist.
Moved Ishana slightly for the hell of it, kept Amavin as is because her positioning doesn't really matter much.Do you need anything more from us, or is everything about to break loose?
Sorry I missed moving my characters. I didn't have much of a chance to get on the site yesterday.
Okay. Thanks.
Would sharp eagle-talons or beak also reduce the cord-unbinding time any?
As for spellcasting.... let's just say I've been thinking about this for a long time.
Need anything else from us?
Hilarious image of a large cat and bird comically gagged and tied up behind Lyda and Deneb. Their companions are their weapons. After that, Lyda's bow and Deneb's component pouch. I think Druids have component pouches.
@GM - Per your advice about focusing on character instead of caravan I've bought a bunch of mundane gear and linked it in a spreadsheet for each of Selene and Samantha. I'll also probably spend the gold for a horse+riding gear rather than be exotic about oxen or w/e just to keep it simple. I've set aside "Horse Fund" 350gp on each character accordingly. Does brevoy have a clear preference for heavy or light horses? If it was Taldor I'd clearly be getting heavy, but I don't know this part of the map that well. Think that's the last of the mundane stuff.
Regarding weapon stuff - Selene/Samantha would keep their focus items which happen to be ranged weapons, but they'd have turned over the ammunition to be held in the plot appropriate place to peacebind it. (So instead of tying up the musket/bow, they wax sealed the ammo pouch/quiver?). If that doesn't work for whatever reason, keep spell component pouches. Their spellbooks are banished via secluded grimoire, although they do have lesser books with them in their packs.
@Lyda I am laughing really hard about sad kitty looking at lyda all meal with the "this is your fault, can we eat them?" expression.
Sorry for the silence - this weekend turned out much more draining then anticipated! I still have some stuff to catch up on but I should be able to be a productive poster soonish.
Cheers! //Lessah
So now what?
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Mayhem tonight!
Bring it!
:)
What sort of food is being served? Is there any butter (component for grease) at hand? I'm guessing there's water, as well?
Migraine, dammit. Have taken headache medicine, but it isn't helping. Going to get a bit of sleep; will be better, and will post, as soon as I wake up in 4-6 hours. Sorry for the delay.
For food, typical Polish/Russian/Slavic fare, heavy on the starches and fats. Yes, butter and water. No, beak and talons will not help (except, perhaps, to get a decent start for a break attempt); those are primarily penetration-type attacks.
I hope you feel better from the migraine, and I am eagerly awaiting mayhem.
Finally! Only 24-48 hours late ... :P :)
But done, and ready for you poor saps to wade in. Or, you know - run screaming. (These are not happy-nice-critters, after all ...)
Well sorry for being so absent, been quite more busy than anticipated this past week.
*Goes to click link* I hope it is borscht!
Typical slavic winter dish.
*Is borscht* Rejoice!
---
On actual topic; I'm going trough my backlog now so hopefully Velar will soon have said more then two sentences IC. Soon™
@Lyda
I hate being that guy but, I think you need to have some sort of vegetation for Entangle to work until you get the Mythic Version?