i have always used a cavalier, paladin or fighter. something with full bab, good fort and nice d10.
But in the next Crimson throne campaign i'm gonna play i'm thinking to make a unchained rouge but i'm afraid he been to weak and fragile to play it like a dirty duelist, someone who fight dirty make a lot of faint with his rapier and stand up in the crowd.
I whant to be the first in the battle but not really tanking. Also i want to make a lot of damage because that is fun!
I don't wanna play another fighter or a daring champion Cavalier.
Culd you help me make it a nice combatant? :)
I was thinking in to:
STR:8
Dex:18 (human bonus)
Con:16
Int:12
Wis:10
Cha:14
to take Weapon focus, imp. faint and dirty trick but other than that i have no clue
Dont dump str, you need to carry weapons and armor.
Try str 11
Dex18
Con16
int10
wis12
cha10
Yes, go Unchained.
Try the Scout archetype.
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If you don't use too much rouge, it'll bring out the best of your natural complexion.
I don't see why it would make you faint.
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Unfortunately, rogues are rather poor at dirty fighting due to their low BAB, though you can definitely make a solid feint build.
The stats are okay, though I don't think that you need the CON that high. A 14 should be plenty.
Ex:
STR:8
Dex:19 (human bonus)
Con:14
Int:12
Wis:12
Cha:14
You should probably either go with an elven curved blade or go TWF, though if you use a single rapier you can use a masterwork buckler with no penalty even when you're not proficient.
If you're worried about durability, halflings make amazing rogues, especially if you want to go with a Feint build since they get the +2 Charisma. Just take the racial ability to get 30ft movement. Their +1 to hit, AC, & to all saves are very nice.
So for a Halfling -
STR:6
Dex:19 (human bonus)
Con:14
Int:12
Wis:12
Cha:16
Trait: Muscle of the Society
Feats: Improved Feint or TWF at level 1 - and then either take Improved Feint at 3 if you took TWF or take Elven Curved Blade proficiency, eventually picking up Greater Feint.
Unfortunately - the rapier is now a rather subpar weapon for rogues, at least until level 11 due to Finesse Training. This is because you don't get the damage of an elven curved blade (which gets 1.5 Dex) and you can't TWF effectively with a pair of rapiers.
If you want to go the rapier route, going with a Swashbuckler might fit your vibe better than a rogue.
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If you don't use too much rouge, it'll bring out the best of your natural complexion.
I don't see why it would make you faint.
Perhaps you could let the OP slide, he is doing very well for a non-native speaker.
Back on topic, the unchained rogue can work very well, but you will need to work on a way to make sure you can sneak attack reliably, which takes some effort.
I'll outline three ways that work well for a melee rogue.
1: Intimidate. Make use of Enforcer + Shatter Defenses. Pros: easy to pull off, works well with hurtful if it's allowed in your game. Cons: it doesn't work on anything immune to fear or mind effecting.
2: Circling Mongoose. This feat uses acrobatics to move around an opponent and allows sneak attacks. Pros: works on almost everything. Cons: very feat intensive.
3: Two weapon feint. Pros: allows more attacks. Cons: also feat intensive, and also doesn't work on things with no intelligence.
Start out with a 17 Dex. Raise it 18 at 4th level. Use the extra points for a bit more strength
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Another idea is to multiclass with swashbuckler or slayer. Preferably after you get dex to damage. Swashbuckler and slayer are full BAB classes that synergize well with rogues.
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thank you guys, i'll have in mind what you said I´ll give him a dagger for TWF when needed and work with my partners for flank and intimidate :)
All the cool kids use rapiers.
Try the Gang Up feat, it can reduce or eliminate the need for flanking.
Consider dual wielding kukri, wakizashi or an elven curve blade.
At higher levels, look into Blinding Critical
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If you don't use too much rouge, it'll bring out the best of your natural complexion.
I don't see why it would make you faint.
Perhaps you could let the OP slide, he is doing very well for a non-native speaker.
If you are going to use two weapons, just use daggers. They won't cost you a proficency feat, can be thrown, and have better feat and trait support. The crit range of kukris are wasted on a rogue, as sneak attack damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
The crit damage from the Kukri is not dependent on positioning. It is a reliable constant that supports the twf rogue as he moves into higher level and starts crit fishing to inflict extra status conditions.
If you are worried about the proficiency, take the swashbuckler archetype.
Trapfinding can be regained with a trait, cheaper than the feat the swashbuckler gained.
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thank you guys, i'll have in mind what you said I´ll give him a dagger for TWF when needed and work with my partners for flank and intimidate :)
That doesn't really work well for an Unchained Rogue because you won't get Dex to Damage with both until level 11 unless you burn extra feats on Fencing Grace.
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The crit damage from the Kukri is not dependent on positioning. It is a reliable constant that supports the twf rogue as he moves into higher level and starts crit fishing to inflict extra status conditions.
True - but a bigger crit is a % increase in damage, and a rogue's damage is low without SA. The crittable damage has to average 20 to make a kukri's damage higher than a shortsword unless you burn enchantment on Keen or a feat on Improved Crit (both of which are generally weak choices for rogues).
Once you can get into crit status effects that changes things, but that's only at the very highest levels for a rogue (since mid BAB) where most campaigns never reach anyway. (Though again - TWF rogues generally don't have feats to spare. The crit feats are great, but rogues generally have other feats they need to take.)
The question is if it's a feat well spend. The damage increase from larger thread range is very small on a Rogue. I'd rather take Deific Obedienc (Pharasma) then EWP (Kukri). Hell, until the Rogue takes Improved Critical, even the River Rat trait increases the damage more than using a Kukri does.
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I'm guessing that English is not Cuvico's first language.
I applaud your efforts, sir or madam. As a person who had to learn a second language, I understand that it's hard before it gets easy.
I also realize that I'm woefully behind in all the options available now. Thanks to all of you for your insights.
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or a magic item (muleback cords) to increase your effective strength for carrying capacity.It's not worth to dump Str to miss out on Cloak of Resistance.
Muleback Cords do not require you to miss out on a Cloak of Resistance.
Cloak of Resistance added to Muleback Cords raises the price of the Muleback Cords by 500gp (CRB p553 Adding New Abilities).
(Note: Not legal in PFS but the OP didn't say he was playing PFS.)
And before a GM says 'but I don't allow custom items' this isn't custom, it is combining items, which is something very different. After all, that is how they priced out a Belt of +2 Strength and +2 Constitution (4000gp +4000gp*1.5 = 10000gp).
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My GF doesn't even take into account carrying capacity, LOL
that ́s why i ́m dumping strength.
because i like to travel light!
also i´m from mexico, thanks for the support and I hope to play with you some day!
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or a magic item (muleback cords) to increase your effective strength for carrying capacity.It's not worth to dump Str to miss out on Cloak of Resistance.Muleback Cords do not require you to miss out on a Cloak of Resistance.
Cloak of Resistance added to Muleback Cords raises the price of the Muleback Cords by 500gp (CRB p553 Adding New Abilities).
(Note: Not legal in PFS but the OP didn't say he was playing PFS.)
And before a GM says 'but I don't allow custom items' this isn't custom, it is combining items, which is something very different. After all, that is how they priced out a Belt of +2 Strength and +2 Constitution (4000gp +4000gp*1.5 = 10000gp).
That's how I gear all of my low strength characters. Better to go muleback and buy an actual mule at 1st to carry your belongings than carry it yourself. You just need enough for armour and weapons, and anything super important (like a grappling hook) should be given to the highest strength party member.
scout archtype , after level 8 offer 100% sneaks .
move 10' with spring attack and get a sneak.
For a single attack per round. Which means your damage will be absolutely abysmal.
For a single attack per round. Which means your damage will be absolutely abysmal.scout archtype , after level 8 offer 100% sneaks .
move 10' with spring attack and get a sneak.
Rogues just miss with their iterative attacks anyway. I suppose at lvl 20 or so you are missing out, but since games dont go much beyond 12 in most cases, I dont see you losing much.
and it usually stops your foe from doing a Full attack on you, which is very nice.
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For a single attack per round. Which means your damage will be absolutely abysmal.scout archtype , after level 8 offer 100% sneaks .
move 10' with spring attack and get a sneak.Rogues just miss with their iterative attacks anyway. I suppose at lvl 20 or so you are missing out, but since games dont go much beyond 12 in most cases, I dont see you losing much.
and it usually stops your foe from doing a Full attack on you, which is very nice.
1. Unchained Rogues which hit with their primary attack are actually more accurate with their first iterative attack at level 10+ due to Debilitating Injury. (not counting TWF)
2. Unless the rogue is making ranged attacks (in which case you're already at range) how is moving 10ft before attacking going to prevent you from being full-attacked?
For a single attack per round. Which means your damage will be absolutely abysmal.scout archtype , after level 8 offer 100% sneaks .
move 10' with spring attack and get a sneak.Rogues just miss with their iterative attacks anyway. I suppose at lvl 20 or so you are missing out, but since games dont go much beyond 12 in most cases, I dont see you losing much.
and it usually stops your foe from doing a Full attack on you, which is very nice.
1. Unchained Rogues which hit with their primary attack are actually more accurate with their first iterative attack at level 10+ due to Debilitating Injury. (not counting TWF)
2. Unless the rogue is making ranged attacks (in which case you're already at range) how is moving 10ft before attacking going to prevent you from being full-attacked?
10' move on the scout archetype = auto sneak damage on the first attack.
Muleback Cords do not require you to miss out on a Cloak of Resistance.
Cloak of Resistance added to Muleback Cords raises the price of the Muleback Cords by 500gp (CRB p553 Adding New Abilities).
(Note: Not legal in PFS but the OP didn't say he was playing PFS.)
And before a GM says 'but I don't allow custom items' this isn't custom, it is combining items, which is something very different. After all, that is how they priced out a Belt of +2 Strength and +2 Constitution (4000gp +4000gp*1.5 = 10000gp).
While a great idea, and something I'd usually allow myself, this falls under "don't count on it until you have an ok from your GM". It's primarily an item crafting rule, so any restrictions on crafting could ruin that, any generally "low magic game" with low magic item availability could ruin that, and you could just have a GM that flat out doesn't allow adding new abilities. This could be for noble reasons, like reserving magic items of significance to drops in an attempt to "make loot magical" again, or it could stem from a less noble paranoia of powergaming, which is often connected to magic item "abuse".
So if you go this route, I'd ask the GM first, rather than make a build banking on the hope that the GM will allow the magic item.
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10' move on the scout archetype = auto sneak damage on the first attack.For a single attack per round. Which means your damage will be absolutely abysmal.scout archtype , after level 8 offer 100% sneaks .
move 10' with spring attack and get a sneak.Rogues just miss with their iterative attacks anyway. I suppose at lvl 20 or so you are missing out, but since games dont go much beyond 12 in most cases, I dont see you losing much.
and it usually stops your foe from doing a Full attack on you, which is very nice.
1. Unchained Rogues which hit with their primary attack are actually more accurate with their first iterative attack at level 10+ due to Debilitating Injury. (not counting TWF)
2. Unless the rogue is making ranged attacks (in which case you're already at range) how is moving 10ft before attacking going to prevent you from being full-attacked?
I understand. What does that have to do with anything?
You have to move 10' before attacking to get the scout archetype's SA, so you're still in melee range unless using a ranged weapon.
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10' move on the scout archetype = auto sneak damage on the first attack.For a single attack per round. Which means your damage will be absolutely abysmal.scout archtype , after level 8 offer 100% sneaks .
move 10' with spring attack and get a sneak.Rogues just miss with their iterative attacks anyway. I suppose at lvl 20 or so you are missing out, but since games dont go much beyond 12 in most cases, I dont see you losing much.
and it usually stops your foe from doing a Full attack on you, which is very nice.
1. Unchained Rogues which hit with their primary attack are actually more accurate with their first iterative attack at level 10+ due to Debilitating Injury. (not counting TWF)
2. Unless the rogue is making ranged attacks (in which case you're already at range) how is moving 10ft before attacking going to prevent you from being full-attacked?
Unless you have pounce or have maxed out outslug style for 10' steps, moving 10' cancels full attacks. Even then, don't expect to have more than one sneak attack unless you also have improved invisibility or are attacking a flanked foe. Scout is not as good as it seems.
You have to move 10' before attacking to get the scout archetype's SA, so you're still in melee range unless using a ranged weapon.
You have to move more than 10'. Not 10'.
So, you move 15' in and then 15' out. If the foe takes a 5' step, you're out of range (for their full attack, with 5' reach)
Even with a 10' move back, If the foe takes a 5' step, you're out of range (for their full attack, with 5' reach).
Scout best uses a big nasty two handed weapon, not two smaller weapons.
And of course with shadowdancer, you Hide in plain sight then.
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So, you move 15' in and then 15' out. If the foe takes a 5' step, you're out of range (for their full attack, with 5' reach)
Okay - so now you're also burning feats on Spring Attack?
In addition, you can only do that once, because you can't use Spring Attack against a target if you start in melee range.
10' move on the scout archetype = auto sneak damage on the first attack.For a single attack per round. Which means your damage will be absolutely abysmal.scout archtype , after level 8 offer 100% sneaks .
move 10' with spring attack and get a sneak.Rogues just miss with their iterative attacks anyway. I suppose at lvl 20 or so you are missing out, but since games dont go much beyond 12 in most cases, I dont see you losing much.
and it usually stops your foe from doing a Full attack on you, which is very nice.
1. Unchained Rogues which hit with their primary attack are actually more accurate with their first iterative attack at level 10+ due to Debilitating Injury. (not counting TWF)
2. Unless the rogue is making ranged attacks (in which case you're already at range) how is moving 10ft before attacking going to prevent you from being full-attacked?
I understand. What does that have to do with anything?
You have to move 10' before attacking to get the scout archetype's SA, so you're still in melee range unless using a ranged weapon.
Hence the spring attack for melee and using the ranged acid splash for non-melee needs.
So, you move 15' in and then 15' out. If the foe takes a 5' step, you're out of range (for their full attack, with 5' reach)Okay - so now you're also burning feats on Spring Attack?
In addition, you can only do that once, because you can't use Spring Attack against a target if you start in melee range.
I believe the idea is that someone more inclined to surviving attacks is engaged with the enemy. You're just darting in and out to do your thing.
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I believe the idea is that someone more inclined to surviving attacks is engaged with the enemy. You're just darting in and out to do your thing.
So, you move 15' in and then 15' out. If the foe takes a 5' step, you're out of range (for their full attack, with 5' reach)Okay - so now you're also burning feats on Spring Attack?
In addition, you can only do that once, because you can't use Spring Attack against a target if you start in melee range.
In that case you'd be better off moving for the flank so that you get a full attack.
Note: I'm a fan of the Scout archetype, but you shouldn't rely upon it to get you SA consistently either as it's a subpar method.
Could go the Skulking Slayer (Half-Orc archetype) route. Meshes well with Scout. Use a Great Axe, take the Trap Finder trait, make judicious use of Greater Dirty Trick, and you can eventually Feint as a swift action pre-charge. Also, if your Acrobatics check is decent (which it should be), moving 15' around your target to trigger the Scout ability shouldn't be an issue.
But yeah, if you're going with two weapons, daggers are great, particularly with the River Rat trait. Check out the Knife Master archetype to see how you can build on that. Here's a decent build to start from. I'd change a couple things, but could work for what OP is looking for. And again, take the Trap Finder trait if you still want to be able to deal with traps.
ETA: My Skulking Slayer build takes first level in Snakebite Strangler (Brawler). You don't need 13 INT to qualify for Combat Expertise (which you need for Improved Feint and the Dirty Trick line), plus it has an extra die of Sneak Attack. I also pair it with Bandit instead of Scout, but that's just because I think it's interesting.
Have a back up character ready for when your rogue dies.
Urogue is a great improvement on the base rogue, but you will still die horribly at some point, especially in melee.