I just discovered Cyclic Reincarnation (source: Arcane Anthology).
Well, am I missing something, or is it one of the best ways ever to resurrect a PC? (Well, a Humanoid one, but they're absolutely the most common PCs.) You only need to couple it with something to remove the negative levels. Apart from that, it sounds too amazing. Under certain circumstances, one may even want to suicide and have Cyclic Reincarnation used on him.
It functions as Reincarnate except this:
1) Its material components cost 5000 gp (Reincarnate's ones cost 1000), just like an "ugly" Raise Dead.
2) Resurrects creatures who died within the past year (Raise Dead only resurrects creatures dead since no more than 1 day per CL; Resurrection and True Resurrection go as far as 10 years per CL*).
3) Body remains don't matter, you just need to have any kind of remains that were part of the creature at the moment of death (just like Resurrection).
4) You avoid the randomness of Reincarnate. You get in a new body of the same race which closely resembles your old body, but not really the same. (Which can easily aid with disguises or getting out of troubles if you're wanted or whatnot; these are some of the "certain circumstances" I mentioned above.)
5) Your new body is young adult (just like Reincarnate). This is one of the best things. As long as you don't keep the same body long enough to die of old age, you can use Cyclic Reincarnation endlessly to return to youth over and over. (More "circumstances".) You can even pass your new self for your old identity's offspring, to keep rumors low. Also, with this, comes the question about age ability modifiers. Your physical ability scores get penalties with age advancement for obvious reasons: the body slowly fails more and more. So, a new young body has them removed instantly. The mental scores' modifiers, though, aren't penalties for the mind failing too (just as is common in real life with senile age), but rather they're bonuses for (supposed) life experience (expanded knowledge, consciousness, manners, etc.). So, since resurrecting doesn't alter in any way your memories and personality, the mental ability score bonuses should be kept, it seems. And guess what? They're untyped bonuses, and untyped bonuses stack... just keep getting old and accrue them. Many reincarnations done as soon as you reach venerable age = skyrocketing Int, Wis, and Cha?
* Shouldn't the time for Resurrection be 1 year per CL? How come it caps just like True Resurrection, when Raise Dead starts at 1 day per CL?
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So, a Doctor Who Time Lord sort of thing? The only thing I'd make them play up is the weight of the years.
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One exception to untyped bonuses stacking is that bonuses from the same source do not stack -- so if you already have mental ability score bonuses of +3 from previously reaching venerable age, you should not gain any more mental ability score bonuses from becoming middle-aged, old, or venerable a second or later time. Combining the mental bonuses of being venerable with the lack of physical penalties from having a young adult body is good enough.
But if you have a friendly druid of level 11+ or hunter of level 16+ available, this spell can be used for effective immortality.
Or at least until the friendly druid/hunter dies of old age.
But yes, you could be essentially immortal with Cyclic Reincarnation. I do agree that a few rounds would likely weigh down even a Half-Orc, let alone an Elf that's seen 1050+12d100 years.
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* Shouldn't the time for Resurrection be 1 year per CL? How come it caps just like True Resurrection, when Raise Dead starts at 1 day per CL?
History. Clerics in AD&D only got spells up to 7th level, which was where Resurrection sat. When they got 9th level spells it was split into Resurrection & True Resurrection. While some distinguishing features were added the time until the 2 spells could no longer work was left the same, probably because no-one thought to change it.
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Or at least until the friendly druid/hunter dies of old age.
Make friends with a Reincarnated Druid (and ensure that you can cast restoration so it's a mutually beneficial arrangement) and the two of you can hang out forever, it's just that your buddy will occasionally be a bugbear or a gnoll.
I note nothing in the spell or reincarnate says you stay male/female, just that you look similar as if next of kin (and next of kin being the opposite sex tends to happen ~50% of the time).
Clearly this is best for a pair of druids (and any additional participants who care to supply the money they need) that can afford the cost.Or at least until the friendly druid/hunter dies of old age.
But yes, you could be essentially immortal with Cyclic Reincarnation. I do agree that a few rounds would likely weigh down even a Half-Orc, let alone an Elf that's seen 1050+12d100 years.
I can't think however of a more severe violation of druidic ethics than this misuse of the spell.
I can't think however of a more severe violation of druidic ethics than this misuse of the spell.
Well, these *are* Druid spells, so, technically, they can't be against druidic ethics.
Also, there's no universal druidic ethic beyond what's written in the Ex-Druids paragraph ("A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid"); other than that, it depends on an individual Druid's religion/philosophy. What more or less all of them agree about is that undeath means keeping alive what's obviously dead, where Druids are all for what's alive. They don't usually care for the afterlife itself, so it doesn't matter if a soul doesn't pass beyond, it just matters that bodies are born and then die within their natural lifespan (which does happen, with reincarnations).If we take fiction into account too, it's not unheard of immortal Druids who remain alive to tend to some area, safekeep something, or other reasons, and they probably aren't even reincarnated (well, not a word about that, at least); they just kept their starting bodies.
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I can't think however of a more severe violation of druidic ethics than this misuse of the spell.Well, these *are* Druid spells, so, technically, they can't be against druidic ethics.
Also, there's no universal druidic ethic beyond what's written in the Ex-Druids paragraph ("A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid"); other than that, it depends on an individual Druid's religion/philosophy. What more or less all of them agree about is that undeath means keeping alive what's obviously dead, where Druids are all for what's alive. They don't usually care for the afterlife itself, so it doesn't matter if a soul doesn't pass beyond, it just matters that bodies are born and then die within their natural lifespan (which does happen, with reincarnations).
If we take fiction into account too, it's not unheard of immortal Druids who remain alive to tend to some area, safekeep something, or other reasons, and they probably aren't even reincarnated (well, not a word about that, at least); they just kept their starting bodies.
Note, Drahl said misuse of the spell.
Note, Drahl said misuse of the spell.
I knew it would be pointed out, but what I wrote above implicitly asked: how can you define its misuse?
(Unless you use it to reincarnate someone who's against nature, but well...)|
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Note, Drahl said misuse of the spell.I knew it would be pointed out, but what I wrote above implicitly asked: how can you define its misuse?
(Unless you use it to reincarnate someone who's against nature, but well...)
The GM would.
Which would lead to a conversation between the Druid and the GM about what a Druid is and isn't.
I can't think however of a more severe violation of druidic ethics than this misuse of the spell.I note nothing in the spell or reincarnate says you stay male/female, just that you look similar as if next of kin (and next of kin being the opposite sex tends to happen ~50% of the time).
Clearly this is best for a pair of druids (and any additional participants who care to supply the money they need) that can afford the cost.Or at least until the friendly druid/hunter dies of old age.
But yes, you could be essentially immortal with Cyclic Reincarnation. I do agree that a few rounds would likely weigh down even a Half-Orc, let alone an Elf that's seen 1050+12d100 years.
Really? I can think of a lot off-hand. It doesn't seem at all against a Druid's ethics, or even like a misuse. The Reincarnated Druid can do this on themselves indefinitely, so that's not an issue. There's nothing about Druids not making bargains or taking payment- Lawful Neutral is a valid alignment. And thematically, the ageless undying protectors of nature isn't bad. It's been done before. (Warning: tvtropes link.)
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Really? I can think of a lot off-hand. It doesn't seem at all against a Druid's ethics, or even like a misuse. The Reincarnated Druid can do this on themselves indefinitely, so that's not an issue. There's nothing about Druids not making bargains or taking payment- Lawful Neutral is a valid alignment. And thematically, the ageless undying protectors of nature isn't bad. It's been done before. (Warning: tvtropes link.)I can't think however of a more severe violation of druidic ethics than this misuse of the spell.I note nothing in the spell or reincarnate says you stay male/female, just that you look similar as if next of kin (and next of kin being the opposite sex tends to happen ~50% of the time).
Clearly this is best for a pair of druids (and any additional participants who care to supply the money they need) that can afford the cost.Or at least until the friendly druid/hunter dies of old age.
But yes, you could be essentially immortal with Cyclic Reincarnation. I do agree that a few rounds would likely weigh down even a Half-Orc, let alone an Elf that's seen 1050+12d100 years.
Being an eternal defender of nature is one thing, keeping everyone immortal because they pay you is another.
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I wouldn't be surprised if it was a violation of the druid code, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. Mostly because the druid code makes no sense to me.
This, and there's also different Druid Circles so differing codes as well. It basically comes down to you and your GM working out what is and isn't a Druid thing to do.
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It boils down to the fact that Druid orders aren't a monolithic bloc. It's kinda like people who argue that Paladins can't execute prisoners or that Paladins must fight every fight to the death regardless of how suicidal it may be. Each order handles things differently. There are some who would probably do reincarnation as a matter of course, there are some who might have very firm strictures on its use. Neither is wrong.
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Man, now I want to grab UMD and scrolls of contingency and Cyclic Reincarnation.
The idea from a character who always rises from the ashes is really cool to me.
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I agree that age modifiers to mental ability scores should not stack from multiple Cyclic Reincarnations... or regular Reincarnations... or Major Mind Swaps.
As to 'best'... I'm kind of fond of regular Reincarnation. Sure, it is random... but think of it as 'Adopted' / 'Racial Heritage' on steroids.
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Note, Drahl said misuse of the spell.I knew it would be pointed out, but what I wrote above implicitly asked: how can you define its misuse?
(Unless you use it to reincarnate someone who's against nature, but well...)The GM would.
Which would lead to a conversation between the Druid and the GM about what a Druid is and isn't.
Actually Drahl said "this misuse of the spell", so he was implying that using it to avoid death from old age is automatically a misuse for a druid.
As we have an archetype that is called the Reincarnated Druid and that it say: "Spun off into the endless circle of life, an incarnate druid is an embodiment of nature's eternal renewal. She lives many lives and wanders the world devoid of attachments, a stranger to all yet one with all life." it is hard to say that being reincarnated for an "endless life" is against the druid rules.The GM interpretation of the strictures of specific druid sects may vary, but as far as the rules go, using this spell to return and avoid death is perfectly kosher.
Or at least until the friendly druid/hunter dies of old age.
But yes, you could be essentially immortal with Cyclic Reincarnation. I do agree that a few rounds would likely weigh down even a Half-Orc, let alone an Elf that's seen 1050+12d100 years.
In the case of my party, we have a Hunter as well as an Oracle whose mystery bonus spells include the standard Reincarnation spell, so the party will be effectively immortal once the Hunter reaches 16th level as long as the Hunter and the Oracle do not die of old age at the same time (since we have a Cleric to cover other causes of death except for a TPK). As a bonus, neither of us has to worry about any Druidic code.
As far as coming back as the opposite sex is concerned -- by the time our Hunter can cast Cyclic Reincarnation, an Elixir of Sex Shift would be a bargain.
Or at least until the friendly druid/hunter dies of old age.
But yes, you could be essentially immortal with Cyclic Reincarnation. I do agree that a few rounds would likely weigh down even a Half-Orc, let alone an Elf that's seen 1050+12d100 years.
In the case of my party, we have a Hunter as well as an Oracle whose mystery bonus spells include the standard Reincarnation spell, so the party will be effectively immortal once the Hunter reaches 16th level as long as the Hunter and the Oracle do not die of old age at the same time (since we have a Cleric to cover other causes of death except for a TPK). As a bonus, neither of us has to worry about any Druidic code.
As far as coming back as the opposite sex is concerned -- by the time our Hunter can cast Cyclic Reincarnation, an Elixir of Sex Shift would be a bargain.
But if you reincarnate into the opposite gender... as opposed to being polymorphed, that new gender should feel right to the character, even if it doesn't to the player.
Note, Drahl said misuse of the spell.I knew it would be pointed out, but what I wrote above implicitly asked: how can you define its misuse?
(Unless you use it to reincarnate someone who's against nature, but well...)
Reverence of nature means abiding by it's universal truths. One of them is that ultimately, everything dies to make room for it's successor. Using this spell for no other reason than to keep someone alive in exchange for mercenary or personal compensation would be a misuse of the power.
Why would anything about a reincarnated character's new form feel right to that character? He or she has a lifetime of experience in a different form and suddenly finds himself or herself in a different form, permanently. Gender is about the only thing that a reincarnated character can change cheaply, easily, and painlessly -- that character pretty much has to learn to accept all other physical changes.
It's hard to say that "this thing, in particular renews itself with age and does not expire" is explicitly unnatural since "biological immortality" is a thing that exists in nature on earth, and would plausibly also as well on Golarion. I don't think there are likely to be bestiary entries for hydras (the microscopic fresh-water animal), flatworms, or tiny jellyfish but if the ones on earth can live effectively forever until some external forced kills them by replacing/repairing damaged cells/DNA then the ones on Golarion probably can too.
You can recontextualize cyclic reincarnation as just a magical "implementation of biological immortality." In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if this actual scientific phenomenon was the inspiration for the spell in question.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if this actual scientific phenomenon was the inspiration for the spell in question.
It would suprise me a hell of a lot since you're really going on a reach for this interpretation.
Why would anything about a reincarnated character's new form feel right to that character? He or she has a lifetime of experience in a different form and suddenly finds himself or herself in a different form, permanently. Gender is about the only thing that a reincarnated character can change cheaply, easily, and painlessly -- that character pretty much has to learn to accept all other physical changes.
A human reincarnated into a centaur does not find having hooves confusing... it's the memories of a time without them that seem out of place.
Well, in Pathfinder, humans don't usually get reincarnated into centaurs -- but I suppose a similar situation could come up with Merfolk. I am sure that a Human reincarnated into a Merfolk would swim effortlessly by instinct, but the physical changes would definitely feel weird, at least at first. The fact that those weird feeling would have no game effects does not mean that they would not be there.
A human reincarnated into a centaur does not find having hooves confusing... it's the memories of a time without them that seem out of place.Why would anything about a reincarnated character's new form feel right to that character? He or she has a lifetime of experience in a different form and suddenly finds himself or herself in a different form, permanently. Gender is about the only thing that a reincarnated character can change cheaply, easily, and painlessly -- that character pretty much has to learn to accept all other physical changes.
I would be extremely interested to know where you got that interpretation out of the spell. I read it as getting a new body and (possibly) keeping your old memories. If I woke up and had webbed feet and gills, or fates forbid all new limbs, I think it would feel quite unnatural considering that until just that minute I did not have those extra appendages.
And no where in the Druid code does it say that you have to let someone die, which is effectively what you're saying. Revere nature does not automatically mean you can't bring someone back to life, it just means that you revere nature - so no laying waste to forests and fields, or salting the earth, or exploiting creatures for the fur trade.
Or at least until the friendly druid/hunter dies of old age.
If the druid got a familiar somehow, then they could pass the spell to the familiar, suicide, then the familiar touches the dead druid, and presto, back again.
I personally favor the witch Grand Hex Forced Reincarnation, as that can be done to oneself, without the need to die, and with the right patron, you can remove the negative levels also.
/cevah
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Almost everything druids do is unnatural (supernaturally altering/enhancing natural entities and forces). Is this any different?
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Druids have power over natural world and, as such, authority to change it and responsability to do it in benefical ways to nature. That is not unnatural.
However, I think frivolous reincarnation goes against natural cycle and is unnatural. Why? Just think about it and its repercussions:
If every person with enough money/friendship/whatever can pay a reincarnation and every druid/hunter/witch of high enough level starts to do it, then, suddenly, rich people becomes inmortal. Once word spreads, Warlords start hunting druids to force a continuous reincarnation. Kings enforce laws to be near inmortals (and their families, and their friends, and their trusted generals, and...) The situation continues escalating and finally about 1/3 of the population (if not more) is inmortal. And, of course, people keeps birthing. Ethic questions aside, you have an overpopulated world who starts squeezing natural resources. And Each generation more and more people becomes inmortal until the planet becomes a barren world... That is unnatural.
And it begins when two druids become inmortal and start selling their services.
Thinking about it, that could be a good story...
A human reincarnated into a centaur does not find having hooves confusing... it's the memories of a time without them that seem out of place.Why would anything about a reincarnated character's new form feel right to that character? He or she has a lifetime of experience in a different form and suddenly finds himself or herself in a different form, permanently. Gender is about the only thing that a reincarnated character can change cheaply, easily, and painlessly -- that character pretty much has to learn to accept all other physical changes.
I would be extremely interested to know where you got that interpretation out of the spell. I read it as getting a new body and (possibly) keeping your old memories. If I woke up and had webbed feet and gills, or fates forbid all new limbs, I think it would feel quite unnatural considering that until just that minute I did not have those extra appendages.
And no where in the Druid code does it say that you have to let someone die, which is effectively what you're saying. Revere nature does not automatically mean you can't bring someone back to life, it just means that you revere nature - so no laying waste to forests and fields, or salting the earth, or exploiting creatures for the fur trade.
But you didn't just wake up and have new limbs, you died, and have essentially come back as a new person with new instincts, and a new shape, and memories of being someone who doesn't quite fit with your new self. It's the reverse of "phantom limb syndrome".
Almost everything druids do is unnatural (supernaturally altering/enhancing natural entities and forces). Is this any different?
Because its a gross violation of natural progression. Living things are born, they mate, they have offspring, and they die in order to leave room for those who come after them. Immortality stands in the way of that progression as in this case it's a population of people who refuse to yield their place in the world.
What about a fey-minded druid whose stance toward nature is 'nature is my favourite toy; I look after my toys very well' rather than being respectful and subservient to nature?
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According to the CRB: "A druid who ceases to revere nature loses all spells and druid abilities". I don't think "nature is my favourite toy" or "not being respectful" gets along very well with it.
IMHO, a druid reveres nature in a similar way a cleric reveres a god.
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I'm actually kind of interested in how this would be worked into a character, actually. Here are a few ideas for tying it back to more Druidy behavior and fleshing out a character or group that does this sort of thing.
- The Fey in the First World come back when they die, and they're generally considered pretty natural. Druids have a lot of ties to the Fey, including a few archetypes, so a Druid choosing to emulate the nature of the First World rather than of the Material Plane doesn't seem out of bounds. (Good fit for CN Druids.) The fact that they're doing it for money doesn't somehow disqualify them- there's no vow of generosity for Druids, and payment for services does fit Fey bargaining.
- The reincarnation could come with conditions that help offset the unnaturalness of it. Perhaps they have to agree to not have kids, which allows them to keep taking that "spot". A NE Druid (or even a particularly dark flavor of neutral, depending on the GM) might require that they sacrifice one of their children each time instead, preserving the balance of things. The sacrifice ties in really well with the Life Channeler archetype, since it can also be used to benefit nature in the area.
- Similarly, focusing on a somewhat more utilitarian reverence for nature (fitting a LN or TN Druid), part of the payment might be services to nature itself. The act itself may not be natural, but it's in service of nature, obligating powerful people to use their influence towards preservation efforts, etc.
- For cultures where reincarnation is viewed as part of nature, there's not much conflict at all. The Druid is simply taking a fee to act as a guide, ensuring a smooth and fast reincarnation for their benefactor.
- A little reflavoring of the spell could also help. Having the new body grow out of and consume the old one ties the spell itself back to a more natural "life from death" motif, fitting the various Druid archetypes tied to rot, death, and other such things. After all, the person does still die- that part of nature isn't being ignored, and indeed is required in order for the restoration of their youth.
Giving it a price to keep balance sounds interesting indeed and doing it right might even add some flavor to the game.
Almost everything druids do is unnatural (supernaturally altering/enhancing natural entities and forces). Is this any different?Because its a gross violation of natural progression. Living things are born, they mate, they have offspring, and they die in order to leave room for those who come after them. Immortality stands in the way of that progression as in this case it's a population of people who refuse to yield their place in the world.
If that's enough for a druid to fall, then... Why do they get that spell in the first place? Or Reincarnate? Why do they get the reincarnated druid archetype?
The reincarnation class of spell effects, as indicated by the Reincarnated Druid archetype are about *renewal* which very much *is* a part of nature.
To me, there is a difference between having the power of doing something and chosing wisely when to do it, and using that power in a frivolous way.
As for the reincarnated druid, I've always seen them as someone very special chosen by nature to hold that kind of power, but that doesn't mean they don't have to live up to it.
1) being born (or reincarnated) a particular sex does not mean the person identifies as that gender, even if you do accept the assertion that once reincarnated your new body is totally normal to you, which I don't especially not if I remember having a positive relationship with my old body.
2) this spell exists and an archetype to make druids functionally immortal also exists, therefore making yourself immortal is clearly not a fall worthy offence. Not to mention having an incredibly powerful immortal guardian of the balance of nature is going to go much further towards protecting said balance than the nurtirents one dead humanoid would provide. Selling immortality to rich people is a different matter however.
Selling immortality to civilized rich people helps slow down the advances of civilization. Old people are a resisting force against change and innovation.
Since Druidism isn't focused on advancement, the slowing effect of the odd immortal isn't as big a deal.
I also don't believe that reincarnation takes an existing body, it just grabs a template.
does not seem like a very nice spell. where are you getting the fresh new body?
As per the reincarnate spell, the body is created anew when the spell is cast:
The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand.