Pounce question


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Does a creature with Pounce have to make all its attacks on the 'target' of the charge or can it use its addition attacks on anything within reach?

Wakrob

PS we just went through the Haste+Pounce argument. I think its dumb that they would work together for an extra attack. The Eidolon already does more damage than the rest of the party combined.
I am not the GM.
Flavor wise Pounce would be like a cat 'pouncing' on a mouse with teeth and both claws simultaneously. And balance wise Pounce is good enough already. Haste already gave extra movement. There is a reason Haste doesnt give a bonus attack to a Charging fighter.


pounce is full attack on charge which would allow you to get the extra attack from haste on a charge as well you can also target different foes with each attack on a pounce if you wish. the reason haste doesn't give an extra attack to a charging fighter is because the fighter cant make a full attack on a charge which the bonus attack from haste comes from a full attack however a beast totem barbarian at level 10 would get the extra attack from haste on a charge because he has pounce


I guess that would dependent on if all attacks count as charge attacks. As I understand it, when you charge you must attack the opponent you charged. So if all attacks are considered charge attack they would all carry the same limitation. If that are not charge attack then I suppose you can attack whomever but you'd likely not get the +2 to hit on them either.

As to Haste+Pounce, it's magic, get used to it.


Josh-o-Lantern wrote:

I guess that would dependent on if all attacks count as charge attacks. As I understand it, when you charge you must attack the opponent you charged. So if all attacks are considered charge attack they would all carry the same limitation. If that are not charge attack then I suppose you can attack whomever but you'd likely not get the +2 to hit on them either.

As to Haste+Pounce, it's magic, get used to it.

you don't have to attack the same creature with all pounce attacks just a minimum of 1 but you still get +2 to all the attacks as charging gives you +2 to hit and -2 to ac for the momentum gained from charging. however there are a few pounce like abilities which stipulate that all the attacks from those pseudo pounce abilities must be against the same target


Lady-J wrote:
Josh-o-Lantern wrote:

I guess that would dependent on if all attacks count as charge attacks. As I understand it, when you charge you must attack the opponent you charged. So if all attacks are considered charge attack they would all carry the same limitation. If that are not charge attack then I suppose you can attack whomever but you'd likely not get the +2 to hit on them either.

As to Haste+Pounce, it's magic, get used to it.

you don't have to attack the same creature with all pounce attacks just a minimum of 1 but you still get +2 to all the attacks as charging gives you +2 to hit and -2 to ac for the momentum gained from charging. however there are a few pounce like abilities which stipulate that all the attacks from those pseudo pounce abilities must be against the same target

Having looked this up before I have found no definitive answer to whether all pounce attacks count as charge attacks.

Charge states: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

The bolded has been argued to mean that a charge attack is only a single attack in your pounce routine and the others are simply normal attacks, but it has also been said that the wording exists only to define the normal interaction. As far as I can tell it's never been addressed officially but feel free to provide a link to any ruling I have not found.


from the faq

Can a creature with pounce make iterative attacks with weapons as part of my full attack?

Any melee attack sequence you can perform as a full attack is allowed as part of the charge-pounce-full attack. For example, a barbarian with the greater beast totem rage power gains the pounce universal monster ability and could make iterative attacks with manufactured melee weapons as part of her charge-pounce-full attack.

If a creature with pounce is under a slow effect, and it charges, does it still get its full attack from pounce?

According to the rules as written, pounce would allow the creature its full attack, despite the slow effect. (This happens because there is no "partial charge" action.)

If a creature with pounce is under a haste effect, and it charges, does it get the extra attack from haste?

Yes. This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling implied that pounce did not allow the extra attack from haste because pounce wasn't using the full attack action.


None of that addresses whether all attacks while pouncing serve as candidates of the charge attack bonus.


charge-pounce-full attack.


any attack on a charge gets the +2


I repeat, Charge states: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

No where in that FAQ or the rules for charging nor pounce state that you receive the +2 bonus to hit and anything other than a single attack.

Dark Archive

I'd rule it that all you're attack need to be directed against the target of you're charge; I feel that fits with the theme of what a charge is more.

However, as Josh-o-Lantern already stated, the rules are pretty unclear.


I don't really see how a slowed creature could get all of it's attacks off... (Unless it gets all of it's 1 attacks)

I would also expect to get the +2 on all the attacks as well as being limited to the creature I charged...

Edit: Haste and slow are two sides of the same coin. You can't have one affect an ability and the other not... o.0

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

So we've got two questions;

Do all pounce attacks have to be directed at the subject of the charge? (Yes or No)

AND

Which pounce attacks receive the charge bonus? (None, First, or All)

There are then six combinations of the possible answers. I am not aware of any evidence which makes one of these six possibilities seem more likely than the others.

Dark Archive

Charging is a condition creatures get that reduces ac and increases to hit by 2. Look at the mounted combat rules. A creature with pounce gets a full attack after it has charged. Now in order to excute a charge it must attempt to hit the target of the charge with at least one attack. The reason the crb assumes only one attack will be made on the charge is because if you are core only you cant get pounce as a martial class. Look at the lance faq and discusion with james jacob for proof of this. The pouncing creature has a full attack so yes haste works. Other people want to put additional restrictions for fluff reasons but no the rules are clear.

Dark Archive

CBDunkerson wrote:

So we've got two questions;

Do all pounce attacks have to be directed at the subject of the charge? (Yes or No)

AND

Which pounce attacks receive the charge bonus? (None, First, or All)

There are then six combinations of the possible answers. I am not aware of any evidence which makes one of these six possibilities seem more likely than the others.

1st pounce grants a full attack. No restrictions on targetting are mentioned. There are none so no

2nd Charging is a condition. It applies to all attacks. So all.


We know that specific charge interaction with the lance or spirited charge only works for the first attack and not all attacks for a pounce.


1) Pounce doesn't state a limit to who you can target with the remainder of your attacks. So there isn't one. To charge you do have to choose a target, so I would say the first attack must be directed at that target, but the remaining attacks from pounce could be at any others in range.

2) I disagree that charging is a condition. Its not listed in the glossary of conditions. When you charge you get +2 to an attack, and -2AC until the start of your next turn. I would give the +2 on the first attack, and the remainder of the attacks would not get the bonus, just like how it works with the lance for double damage.


CBD wrote:

So we've got two questions;

Do all pounce attacks have to be directed at the subject of the charge? (Yes or No)

AND

Which pounce attacks receive the charge bonus? (None, First, or All)

There are then six combinations of the possible answers. I am not aware of any evidence which makes one of these six possibilities seem more likely than the others.

Nice summary.

I can see this is one you can expect table variance on.

1) Yes, Pounce doesn't change the rules of a charge. You charge a single target, you just get to make more attacks against that target.

2) All. You are charging, all your pounce attacks get +2 to hit.


One of these days we'll get an official ruling...


Josh-o-Lantern wrote:
One of these days we'll get an official ruling...

While we are at it, can we get an errata that you can't pounce while staggered?


DM Livgin wrote:
Josh-o-Lantern wrote:
One of these days we'll get an official ruling...
While we are at it, can we get an errata that you can't pounce while staggered?

Never going to happen. Pounce is a monster ability intended to make pouncers more dangerous when they would otherwise only get to make one attack.


DM Livgin wrote:
Josh-o-Lantern wrote:
One of these days we'll get an official ruling...
While we are at it, can we get an errata that you can't pounce while staggered?

Why would we get such an errata? The slow spell already makes you staggered. Yet there is a FAQ that charge-pounce still grants full attacks while slowed.


bbangerter wrote:
DM Livgin wrote:
Josh-o-Lantern wrote:
One of these days we'll get an official ruling...
While we are at it, can we get an errata that you can't pounce while staggered?
Why would we get such an errata? The slow spell already makes you staggered. Yet there is a FAQ that charge-pounce still grants full attacks while slowed.

Fair enough, no errata. I guess it is a design decision that I don't understand the logic behind. (I've personally seen pounce in the hands of PCs more often than monsters, partially because one of my PCs has pounce.)

Or maybe I just need to adjust how I imagine pounce so it does not break immersion that a staggered creature can not full attack the enemy beside it, but can full attack the enemy greater than ten feet away.


I'd say that based off the rules as written of the charge action as well as normal reasoning/logic, that the attack bonuses only apply to the target being charged.

It doesn't make much sense to me that someone who makes a charge can turn around a whole 140° and start attacking that target with attack bonuses due to a charge. It makes no sense.

As an additional point: pounce is already very strong. It seems silly to make it stronger.


DM Livgin wrote:
Josh-o-Lantern wrote:
One of these days we'll get an official ruling...
While we are at it, can we get an errata that you can't pounce while staggered?

doing so would only make the gap between casters and martials bigger and would break so very many monsters(not in a good way)


DM Livgin wrote:
Fair enough, no errata. I guess it is a design decision that I don't understand the logic behind.

The logic is "that's how the rules as written work, because there is no such thing as a partial charge".

Don't try to imagine how Pounce works. For instance, you can't pounce someone if you have to make a jump on the way. I mean, the whole definition of pounce is that it's an offensive jump, and yet it can't be combined with a jump.


Wait... Where is this 'can't jump while charging' bull s~!! written?


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Wait... Where is this 'can't jump while charging' bull s$&~ written?

Jumping is not an action, it is something done as a part of movement.

I am aware of nothing in the rules that would prevent someone from jumping mid-charge.


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You can't charge if there is any obstacle to movement in the way, like say a pit or a patch of difficult terrain, even though you might be able to jump over it normally.

That is, you can jump during your charge all you like... as long as you don't have to.

Grand Lodge

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

You can't charge if there is any obstacle to movement in the way, like say a pit or a patch of difficult terrain, even though you might be able to jump over it normally.

That is, you can jump during your charge all you like... as long as you don't have to.

The exact wording:

"You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles)."

Jumping is unclear. If you make the jump you have a clear path and your movement is unhindered. If you don't make the jump then you don't pass wither of the conditions.

The next factor to consideration is:

"If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent."

So, if you can jump an obstacle but you don't have line if sight you can't charge. If an obstacle is greater then 5ft and you jump it you are no longer moving in a straight line.


In other words you can leaping charge over small obstacles (difficult terrain) or gaps in the ground/floor IF you succeed your jump check. Obstacles large enough to block your view prevent charging.


Charge wrote:
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

It's a bit ambiguous if the +2 bonus is applied to one or all attacks, but it's clear to me that the designated target of the charge must be the target of all attacks. The target is the designated opponent, and a pounce grants you all of your available attacks on a charge; as long as you're charging, you have a designated opponent.


Cuup wrote:
Charge wrote:
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
It's a bit ambiguous if the +2 bonus is applied to one or all attacks, but it's clear to me that the designated target of the charge must be the target of all attacks. The target is the designated opponent, and a pounce grants you all of your available attacks on a charge; as long as you're charging, you have a designated opponent.

but they actually don't as the only abilities that require all attacks to go against the same target are pseudo pounce abilities which is why they are pseudo pounce abilities because of that restriction


kyrt-ryder wrote:
In other words you can leaping charge over small obstacles (difficult terrain) or gaps in the ground/floor IF you succeed your jump check.

No, because you can only attempt a charge if you have a clear path in the first place.

"If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge." If you have to jump over it, it obvious blocks movement. If it is there, it is a square in the line between you and your target.


Lady-J wrote:
Cuup wrote:
Charge wrote:
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
It's a bit ambiguous if the +2 bonus is applied to one or all attacks, but it's clear to me that the designated target of the charge must be the target of all attacks. The target is the designated opponent, and a pounce grants you all of your available attacks on a charge; as long as you're charging, you have a designated opponent.
but they actually don't as the only abilities that require all attacks to go against the same target are pseudo pounce abilities which is why they are pseudo pounce abilities because of that restriction

Can you list some of these Pseudo Pounce abilities?


Derklord wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
In other words you can leaping charge over small obstacles (difficult terrain) or gaps in the ground/floor IF you succeed your jump check.

No, because you can only attempt a charge if you have a clear path in the first place.

"If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge." If you have to jump over it, it obvious blocks movement. If it is there, it is a square in the line between you and your target.

Read that again.

If the line blocks or slows movement you cannot charge.

There is no slowing or blockage ifvthe jump check successfully clears it.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Derklord wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
In other words you can leaping charge over small obstacles (difficult terrain) or gaps in the ground/floor IF you succeed your jump check.

No, because you can only attempt a charge if you have a clear path in the first place.

"If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge." If you have to jump over it, it obvious blocks movement. If it is there, it is a square in the line between you and your target.

Read that again.

If the line blocks or slows movement you cannot charge.

There is no slowing or blockage ifvthe jump check successfully clears it.

Nice try, but no.
Charge wrote:
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.

It doesn't matter if you can jump over an obstacle; if you draw a line from where you start to where your movement ends, and it goes through a square with an obstacle in it, you can't charge. Ability to jump doesn't change the placement of the line.


Of course ability to jump doesn't change the placement of the line, it merely relegates the 'obstacle' to a non-obstacle.

If you jumped over it then it neither blocks nor slows movement, the charge succeeds.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think what Cuup and Derklord are saying is that you can't jump over the obstacle because you never get to initiate the charge.

If you could charge and jump over the obstacle you're absolutely write, but as things are written you can't because the target isn't a valid target for the charge in the first place. You never get to start the charge which means you never get the chance to jump.


Squiggit wrote:

I think what Cuup and Derklord are saying is that you can't jump over the obstacle because you never get to initiate the charge.

If you could charge and jump over the obstacle you're absolutely write, but as things are written you can't because the target isn't a valid target for the charge in the first place. You never get to start the charge which means you never get the chance to jump.

By that logic, if there is rough terrain and I have activated my Feather Step Slippers I can't charge even though I ignore rough terrain. The simple fact that it exists prevents the charge.

I don't agree with that. I think it's saying that if something would hinders your movement you can't charge, and they've given two examples that may hinder your movement, a barrier that I can jump over doesn't hinder my movement.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Jodokai wrote:


By that logic, if there is rough terrain and I have activated my Feather Step Slippers I can't charge even though I ignore rough terrain. The simple fact that it exists prevents the charge.

The difference between your example and this one though is that you jump after the charge starts.


Jeez and here I thought m/c disparity was bad at my table. How do people still play martials if you don't even let them charge-leap over debris (or corpses) or gaps in the floor?


kyrt-ryder wrote:

Jeez and here I thought m/c disparity was bad at my table. How do people still play martials if you don't even let them charge-leap over debris (or corpses) or gaps in the floor?

Charge wrote:
Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

Actually, corpses don't negate a charge ^_^

I know what you mean, though, but these are the rules forums, so factors like martial/caster disparity aren't really a, well, factor. If a table independently decides that Acrobatics to jump across an obstacle mid-charge is allowed, then that's just fine - I think it's a pretty cool/flavorful ruling - it's just not supported by the rules, which is what we're discussing.


Cuup wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Cuup wrote:
Charge wrote:
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
It's a bit ambiguous if the +2 bonus is applied to one or all attacks, but it's clear to me that the designated target of the charge must be the target of all attacks. The target is the designated opponent, and a pounce grants you all of your available attacks on a charge; as long as you're charging, you have a designated opponent.
but they actually don't as the only abilities that require all attacks to go against the same target are pseudo pounce abilities which is why they are pseudo pounce abilities because of that restriction
Can you list some of these Pseudo Pounce abilities?

Raging Hunter Pounce

Discipline: Primal Fury (Strike); Level: 2
Initiation Action: 1 full-round action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instant

DESCRIPTION

With the ferocity of a raging great cat, the disciple of Primal Fury provides the very real fear that users of this discipline are known to inspire with their reckless assault techniques of offense over all. The initiator makes a charge attack and makes a full attack at the end of the charge against the target creature. He must focus all of these attacks against a single target, and if the target is brought to 0 or fewer hit points, then any remaining attacks are lost as the initiator savages the foe's body with the remaining attacks.

pseudo pounce


Squiggit wrote:
The difference between your example and this one though is that you jump after the charge starts.

Okay so what if there's an invisible barrier, or a hidden trap? As the GM when your player tries to charge, do you tell them, "You can't you're not sure why" or do you let them attempt the maneuver and stop them at the barrier?

In any of these cases I don't think there's anything intrinsic in the wording of charge that makes you check all conditions before attempting the maneuver. Just like using Acrobatics to move through someone's square, there's no guarantee that it's going to work, but you can always attempt it. I think charge works the same way.

As far as pounce, I believe all your attacks have to go against the target of your charge. I think it's implicit in the ability even if it isn't explicit.


Jodokai wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
The difference between your example and this one though is that you jump after the charge starts.

Okay so what if there's an invisible barrier, or a hidden trap? As the GM when your player tries to charge, do you tell them, "You can't you're not sure why" or do you let them attempt the maneuver and stop them at the barrier?

In any of these cases I don't think there's anything intrinsic in the wording of charge that makes you check all conditions before attempting the maneuver. Just like using Acrobatics to move through someone's square, there's no guarantee that it's going to work, but you can always attempt it. I think charge works the same way.

As far as pounce, I believe all your attacks have to go against the target of your charge. I think it's implicit in the ability even if it isn't explicit.

No. If this is how the Gm wishes to run an encounter, as far as the standard rules are concerned, he can certainly allow a character to move up to the obstacle and Acrobatics to jump, then finish his movement, and maybe even attack the target if he's reached it, but it WOULDN'T be a charge. The same would happen with the invisible barrier example.


Cuup wrote:
No. If this is how the Gm wishes to run an encounter, as far as the standard rules are concerned, he can certainly allow a character to move up to the obstacle and Acrobatics to jump, then finish his movement, and maybe even attack the target if he's reached it, but it WOULDN'T be a charge. The same would happen with the invisible barrier example.

What keeps it from being a charge? It was a straight line and nothing impeded his movement. All the bases are covered.


Jodokai wrote:
By that logic, if there is rough terrain and I have activated my Feather Step Slippers I can't charge even though I ignore rough terrain. The simple fact that it exists prevents the charge.

And by very strikt RAW reading, you'd be right. Even worse are thing like "you can make a 90° turn during the charge" or "you can charge through squares containing allies" - without changing the "you must have a clear path" sentence, those don't work by purest RAW. But I'm pretty sure this is where we're supposed to use common sense.

The difference to jumping is that for Feather Slippers, Charging Stag Style et al. we have something that allows us to explicitly ignore part of the normal rules (they just didn't include exceptions for all the rules involved - but the RAI are clear). Jumping does not say anything similar.

The relevant rule is "If an obstacle hampers movement but doesn't completely block it, each obstructed square or obstacle between squares counts as 2 squares of movement.", which obviously falls under the mentioned "square that (..) slows movement".

You could even rationalize it - if you have to be attentive to the ground, you can't really do that reckless running. Also, while jumping around, you don't build up the necessary momentum. It only get's crazy because a pounce is supposed to have a jump near the end.

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Jeez and here I thought m/c disparity was bad at my table. How do people still play martials if you don't even let them charge-leap over debris (or corpses) or gaps in the floor?

I didn't say I don't allow it. Recognizing the rules and enforcing them are two different things.


now I know it's not definative but janni rush talks about jumping in a charge and a running start for jumps. Seems like a useless thing unless you could charge by jumping over the pit right in front of you. Otherwise the running start is useless and a jump would be a dc 1 acrobatics check for a little hop in a normal charge.
Not saying that the running start couldn't be useless, but it might indicate that jumping over pits is allowed.


Cuup wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

Jeez and here I thought m/c disparity was bad at my table. How do people still play martials if you don't even let them charge-leap over debris (or corpses) or gaps in the floor?

Charge wrote:
Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
Actually, corpses don't negate a charge ^_^

Woah! My group has apparently been house ruling this since forever! Was it ever a rule in DND or did we pick it up from somewhere else?

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