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Nerf is a strong word in this case as I think a lot of the problem was that some folks assumed some incorrect ideas about the Sacred Fist and sort of spread it as fact when it wasn't clear, and they took some liberties with interpritation. Combine that with the fact that the Warpriest lost it's psuedo Full BaB, which the Sacred Fist's Flurry was sort of meant to replace, (it was more of an error that the archetype incorrectly kept a feature that the normal class lost and they didn't catch it in the rush because the first printing was so poorly done).
Its not a terrible archetype, but it's no longer outright better than the base Warpriest and every single other Archtype. Better than the Monk is sort of subjective, (depends on what you mean or want from it), and also depends on if you mean Unchained or Base.
It may also be worth noting that, depending on what form you are going off of, both Master of Many Styles and Pummeling Strike have been errata'd, (and in the first cases, Nerf might be more appropriate).
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MoMS was "fixed" more than it was "nerfed". It's intent has always been to facilitate mixed styles, not as a cheap dip to get a single style maxed out way too early.
MoMS was cramping design because any new style had to be balanced around people ignoring prerequisites including character level. That's just bad and had to be fixed. And the new thing he got with wildcard styles is pretty nifty.
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It may also be worth noting that, depending on what form you are going off of, both Master of Many Styles and Pummeling Strike have been errata'd, (and in the first cases, Nerf might be more appropriate).
Actually - Master of Many Styles wasn't really nerfed. It was nerfed as a 1-2 level dip, but they also made it viable as a full class for the first time. They're probably the best way to make a monk with natural weapons since they give up flurry.
Pummeling Style was a straight nerf since they removed the critting feature, though they also removed some of the confusing wording.
Edit: Semi-ninja'd.
MoMS doesn't grant early entry to style feats. Sacred fist doesn't get full bab while flurrying. And pummeling is just cluster shot for unarmed strikes.
Yeah, though the Sacred Fist and Pummeling Style edits were more clarifications than actual changes/nerfs. The Sacred Fist never said to use your level as your monk level for BAB. And the Pummeling Style flavor text implied that it was meant for unarmed strikes.
And the Pummeling Style flavor text implied that it was meant for unarmed strikes.It was still nerfed because it used to crit all damage in the round if any single attack roll critted.
Yeah, but I don't think that was the intention just poor writing. *Though I can't remember the actual wording*
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Yeah, but I don't think that was the intention just poor writing. *Though I can't remember the actual wording*And the Pummeling Style flavor text implied that it was meant for unarmed strikes.It was still nerfed because it used to crit all damage in the round if any single attack roll critted.
The part in question was -
If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit.
I'm pretty sure that it was intentional or they wouldn't have included that bit.
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I could see it being interprited a few different ways and with a few different intentions in mind.
"You make multiple attack rolls, but its really considered one attack, (or a grey area between one and multiple attacks), for the purposes of abilities that ping on a Critical Hit, such as Flaming Burst. So it is considered a Critical Hit, and Flaming Burst extra damage would apply."
sacred fist gives you TWF for free and forces most of your feats to be style feats.
Normal WP can get TWF faster than sacred fist.
Arsenal chaplain is seen as better because it's giving another scaling attack booster to the class basically for free. You lose channel, that most WP would never use, and instead of 2 blessings you get war with any deity, which is one of the better blessings. And free quicken blessing. So for the majority of WP builds you'd have bigger numbers with the chaplain.
Yeah, but I don't think that was the intention just poor writing. *Though I can't remember the actual wording*And the Pummeling Style flavor text implied that it was meant for unarmed strikes.It was still nerfed because it used to crit all damage in the round if any single attack roll critted.The part in question was -
If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit.I'm pretty sure that it was intentional or they wouldn't have included that bit.
Yeah, you're definitely right. Bad memory on my part.
Having played with someone who did use it with a warpriest sacred fist before all the nerfs occurred...it was some kind of broken. 1 critical hit and now the whole damage routine got multiplied. It was just way too much on a successful critical. I think they should have got something to replace it, but transforming all hits into critical hits was too much.
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Having played with someone who did use it with a warpriest sacred fist before all the nerfs occurred...it was some kind of broken. 1 critical hit and now the whole damage routine got multiplied. It was just way too much on a successful critical. I think they should have got something to replace it, but transforming all hits into critical hits was too much.
Yeah - probably a bit too much, especially once they got to level 11 and had 5+ attack rolls which critted on 19-20. Maybe they should have left the part where you always use your highest BAB to confirm - letting it basically be a better version of Critical Focus, but only for unarmed iterative attacks.
Yeah, using your full BAB to confirm critical hits would have been fine. Still would have need to roll a critical threat in the first place, which is the hard part.
I'm still frustrated about needing to buy the Agile enchantment instead of taking Fencing Grace for a Caydenite Sacred Fist
The fact is, post errata an unarchtyped warpriest is a better unarmed fighter than a sacred fist, and an arsenal chaplain is better than the base warpriest. A sacred fist can still be effective, but they just aren't as good as the other options available.
Could you demonstrate that, please? I'm still torn between SF and WP And now there's AC. :v
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A war priest should be able to get by with Fencing Grace. Since Fervor-driven spells don't need Somatic components you can do them with the same hand that's holding the rapier, thus circumventing the free hand restriction. Just make sure to get a holy symbol birthmark or tattoo as a divine focus. (For Cayden, getting a tattoo while on a bender seems appropriate..)
WP vs SF
skills:
wash, whichever you prefer.
Equipement:
Armor or Wis to AC. I give edge to armor, it's really cheap AC.
Base weapon list is better.
At lv1 free TWF instead of sacred weapon and IUS instead of weapon focus.
Worshiping irori gives base WP IUS and still keep weapon focus. Sacred weapon scaling is only for fists but slightly faster, but you can't use the swift action to boost a weapon. That's missing out on rounds of increased enhancement.
blessed fortitude is pretty sweet, got instead of a feat that counts as fighter and full bab.
Bonus feats at 6 and 9 required to be style feats that you qualify for.
Getting a ki pool instead of armor is pretty nice.
lv9 better fort deal instead of feat.
A Normal WP has weapon focus US and still have scaling IUS damage. You can take TWF normally and ITWF at lv6 instead of waiting till lv8. You can swift action enhance your fists by 1 at 4 and by 2 at 8. So your IUS are more accurate and even more accurate and damaging if you activate your ability. Also a normal WP can add natural attacks while a SF can't. Since you still have to qualify for the bonus style feats you could use your feats or bonus feats for those too.
So the upside of SF is the fortitude stuff and the ki pool. So if you're wanting the monk feel it's not bad.
AC gets weapon training at lv5 to give more accuracy and damage to your attacks for free. Plus getting quicken blessing instead of the armor booster. Yes your fists damage die don't go up, but your damage is the same from static increases and you'll be more accurate.
A war priest should be able to get by with Fencing Grace. Since Fervor-driven spells don't need Somatic components you can do them with the same hand that's holding the rapier, thus circumventing the free hand restriction. Just make sure to get a holy symbol birthmark or tattoo as a divine focus. (For Cayden, getting a tattoo while on a bender seems appropriate..)
Fervor takes care of the holy symbol too. You have to have one, but you don't need a free hand to manipulate it. "The warpriest does not need to have a free hand to cast a spell in this way."
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Just to add to chess pwn's post, the fact that you can wear actual armor means you can also benefit from brawling armor for another +2 to hit and damage, and you can use a shield for more AC while using TWF with unarmed strikes. You'll have a captain America feel instead of Kwai Chang Caine, but you'll do more damage at a comparable or better AC.
I'm not against armor, but I'm not fond of shields (without proper weapons). What they did to Brawling hurts, though. I tend to favor SF (it made me chose Pathfinder over 5e, because I just love the concept), but I find it annoying that he can't excel at his own game.
:\
Thanks for the explaining, guys.
:)
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But still, armor and shield is nice and scales faster than wis to AC.
I'm not sure about that. With a 16 WIS and Mage Armor the SF's AC will be better than a chain shirt & heavy shield. At lowish levels the chain shirt & shield might get an edge as they get magic boosts, but by 8ish the SF will probably pull even with 2 AC stats & +1/4 levels. (It won't take that long if he goes with a DEX build since he has no max Dex to AC.) In addition, his touch AC & CMD will both be WAY higher.
Plus - the Sacred Fist's damage is a bit higher since the normal warpriest's offhand attacks get 1/2 STR damage and his damage dice are a smidge higher (more than a smidge when he grabs a monk's robe). Plus - a normal warpriest can't take advantage of the Allying weapon trick properly with all of his attacks due to using two different unarmed weapons.
(Not to say that there aren't still reasons to go regular warpriest - but there are also advantages to the Sacred Fist.)
I'm still frustrated about needing to buy the Agile enchantment instead of taking Fencing Grace for a Caydenite Sacred FistWhy can't you take Fencing Grace?
Fencing Grace was altered to not work when using Flurry of Blows
Fencing Grace was altered to not work when using Flurry of BlowsUnless you also take the new Two-Weapon Grace feat from Villain Codex.
Wait, what?
But still, armor and shield is nice and scales faster than wis to AC.Plus - the Sacred Fist's damage is a bit higher since the normal warpriest's offhand attacks get 1/2 STR damage and his damage dice are a smidge higher (more than a smidge when he grabs a monk's robe). Plus - a normal warpriest can't take advantage of the Allying weapon trick properly with all of his attacks due to using two different unarmed weapons.
(Not to say that there aren't still reasons to go regular warpriest - but there are also advantages to the Sacred Fist.)
Hm... They say that monk's robe doesn't work for the SF because of the wording.. But I remember it's all about the same "combo" the ascetic knight used in 3.5 to avoid monk levels.. I'd allow it on my table, though.
And this 1/2 Str problem could be solved with a level in Unchained Monk, eh?
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Fencing Grace was altered to not work when using Flurry of BlowsUnless you also take the new Two-Weapon Grace feat from Villain Codex.Oh hey, another instance where Paizo releases an FAQ that restricts an option only to turn around and put out a product that includes rules options that immediately reverses said FAQ restriction.
If you'd like to know what other instance I might be speaking of, it's the fairly contentious SLA spellcraft FAQ and the immediate release of Ultimate Intrigue with the Conceal Spell feat.
Not cool.
They literally advertised they were going to do so in that FAQ:
Special abilities exist (and more are likely to appear in Ultimate Intrigue) that specifically facilitate a spellcaster using chicanery to misdirect people from those manifestations and allow them to go unnoticed, but they will always provide an onlooker some sort of chance to detect the ruse.
It's not a weird reversal if you announce it ahead of time.
EDIT: and that timing makes total sense. Before the FAQ it was just unclear if spellcasting was visible. The way it's done in the FAQ was one of competing views.
Ultimate Intrigue would obviously have something about sneaky spellcasting in it. Before you start writing abilities to hide your casting, you need to clarify whether it was noticeable in the first place. So while before there was table variation because there wasn't a clear ground truth, the FAQ picked one side and made it the rule.
Yeah, the FAQ about obvious spell casting was exactly what they intended and they told us options would be coming out to hide the spell casting.
It's surprising to me that they would release an ability that would remove the restriction on Fencing/Slashing Grace, but by setting a price on it (a feat) it makes some sense. There is an opportunity cost to being able to do it with the clarification that it doesn't work without the (new) feat.
The most frustrating part is the Fencing Grace rule clearly exists to prevent Precise Strike abuse, and instead of the restriction happening on Precise Strike, it's attached to a feat that non-Swashbucklers might want to use