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Maybe there is something to do themeatically or mechanically with the warpriest's Void blessing?

Void Blessing
Source PRG:ACO
Airless Touch (minor): At 1st level, with a successful melee touch attack you can steal the breath from an opponent’s lungs, leaving it unable to speak, use breath weapons, cast spells with verbal components, or do anything else requiring breath for 1 round. If the target fails at a Fortitude saving throw, it’s also staggered for 1 round as it catches its breath. If the target was attempting to hold its breath, it can no longer do so: it must breathe on its turn or risk suffocation and unconsciousness. Creatures that don’t need to breathe are unaffected. Regardless of whether it succeeds at its saving throw, the target is immune to further uses of your airless touch for 24 hours.


Expanding on the last line of Eigengrau's comment:

Evangelist of Erastil can get an exact double of the animal companion for the 2nd divine boon for rounds per hit die (twin fang).

Now this is pretty potent tool in itself... but if you went for hunter/sacred huntsmaster build this double now has all these teamwork feats and can tandem wreck face with the original animal companion for a couple of rounds of supernova while you hang back and cast spells...


Bigguyinblack wrote:

I plan on building something similar but am running into two issues.

1. When riding a large creature and using a reach weapon you don't threaten adjacent squares. Mention is made of things like bite attacks or armor spikes but that isn't what I want to be taking my attacks of opportunity with.

option 1

If you are mounted, a mainhand lance and an offhand weapon are an option.There is something to be said imho for Torag worshippers that then take Torags Divine Fighting technique (way of patient strikes) which is basically combat reflexes but keyed off wisdom as long as you are wielding a warhammer (in this case in the offhand).This allows to focus on Str + Wisdom and Dex becomes a tertiatary stat. Also the loss of dex when you are enlarging (and the loss of AOO becomes a non issue

Option 2
Another way to go is a single level of Sohei monk, Dex+Wis+lightly armored is not bad, and now you threaten adjecent because you are monk and you can kick somebody while you are still two handing a reach weapon. Also you can get mounted skirmisher by taking that dip.


I feel like that there some awesome stuff you could do as a sacred huntsmaster of erastil / sohei monk:

bow flurrying with bane and a cool beasty always getting the drop on everybody (devoted guardian sohei monk, Tenacious guardian from bodyguard animal companion archetype and the look out teamwork feat means you both get always get full round action in a surprise round...

Or this option at level 1 of being a mounted skirmisher and just strolling on top that beasty and flurrying

I don't know if are allowed to PRC one of the two classes but evangelist then allows you to have a duplicate of your puppy for a number of turns and at real high level add wisdom to damage with your bow (why be SAD if MAD means you can add two stats to to hit)


Woodoodoo wrote:
The book is not an improvised weapon.

You are right, I missed the FAQ...


Jesper Roland Sørensen wrote:
Woodoodoo wrote:
He was probably talking about the living grimoire inquisitor archetype that came out a while ago. Alas the archetype is pretty weak.
Just because it's weak doesn't mean it can't be fun to play. I'm building one for Hell's Venegance going around hitting at his opportnents over the head with the laws of Cheliax and Asmodeus.

It is generally weaker but your to hit can be quite good at low levels for a 3/4 bab caster if you take this trait

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Surprise Weapon

together with the +1 to hit from holy book, You are at +3 to hit before selecting any feat


Merciless butchery in one turn V1

Get an animal companion (3 feats) on the slayer / rogue (accelerated Sneak attack progression)

Animal companion must be strength based and have bludgeoning attack. get the cudgeler chain completely on the A C (bludgeoner, cudg style, cudg sweep, cudg takedown. can be done at 9th

Animal companion : charges and forces a stun (full round action)

You study (swift action),

You stroll (move action)

You coup de grace (standard action )

You whistle something sinister (free action)


ShroudedInLight wrote:

Throat Slicer is not only easier to qualify for, but also easier to proc thanks to Grapples being easier than Cowers or Stuns to inflict.

/QUOTE]

And because ease of qualification => ease of outsource => action economy: if you somehow manage to make a grapple build that does the tie up in a single turn involve a familiar or animal companion, giving your furry friend throat slicer and you just saved a full turn...


doc roc wrote:

Here's a few....

Visualization of the mind

Combine it with Noble Scion of War and BOOM.... basically a perm +5 to initiative.

Alternatively wait till the BBEG and after initiative activate it in full (and combined with Fates Favoured) gives you +3 on all D20 rolls for the battle

/QUOTE]

Really cool !


Eigengrau wrote:
Kris Verschaeve wrote:
Share shape + twin companion: 3 pouncing cats that share teamwork feats and planar focus. Go Team Kitty !
Are these spells, feats or abilities.? I can't find them.

Share shape is a spell, basically you take on the form of your animal companion

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/share-shape/

Twin companion: sorry twin fang: the ability the Evangelist PRC to duplicate the AC that you found yourself


Share shape + twin companion: 3 pouncing cats that share teamwork feats and planar focus. Go Team Kitty !


Eigengrau wrote:

Thanks to everyone so far, please keep the ideas and tricks coming.

Kris, I'll check out those links later, it sounds very similar to a Improved Feint & Feint Partner teamwork feat build.
On your idea of using Wisdom for Combat Reflexes, it reminded me that the 2nd level of High Guardian Fighter allows you to use Strength or Dex for Combat Reflexes. So dipping into fighter and Boon Companion could be useful.

The interesting twist on it is that you are actively intending to FAIL to trigger improved disarm partner from that perspective come a couple of interesting build choices: its a dex build because you want a neutral or negative strength to help you fail to disarm, you are TWFing without the actual feat generating another attack that is doomed to fail which generates an AOO, its a very funny (a bit cynical build) in that you intend to make a scenario plausible that you intend to disarm and it fails on 1-19 roll and only succeeds on a 20 and then the worst thing that happens is tat you take the weapon from your opponent and when it fails both you and your animal companion get an attack at +5 BAB that works every time if build right... If dipped with a single level of swashbuckler for opportune parry and riposte and keeping damage with bane (sacred huntsmaster) or other tricks it could be a really cool build I think


INCREASING NR OF AOOS

Elven battle training increases the number of AOO by one for elves that use elvish weapons

Flying blade 3 would get you disrupting counter. Yes its only with a dagger, and that's kind of its own disadvantage. However contrary to opportune parry and riposte, that attack that you make is AOO, which means paired opportunists and the trait actually help for that attack, and you have a sure fire way to trigger forfuitous

INCREASING QUALITY OF AOOS

fencer trait for daggers, swords etc: +1 to hit on AOO

opportune slayer (religion: Lamashtu :( ) +2 to damage on AOO

opportunistic: (religion Calistra) +1 to hit on AOO with dagger sword whip

bullied: +1 to hit on unarmed AOO

savannah hunter: +1 to hit on AOO with shortspear

Heirloom weapon also can give you +1 to hit on AOO with that weapon
Tianjing temple guard +1 to hit on AOO with polearms (regional)

Racial trait for half elf eye for opportunity +1 racial bonus, meaning it would stack with any of the above: but trading away adaptability and keen senses is steep.

FANCY TRICKS

1 I find this an interesting twist, this theory craft build is way of trying to substitute all its iteratives as AOOs (with the premise that an AOO is at full BAB and you are using paired opportunists (and fencer trait) to get all your attacks at a net BAB+5 before any other buffs

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/3xl61z/build_math_improved _disarm_partner/

2 another thing that I've trying thinking is Torag's divine fighting technique. It is basically combat reflexes, and keys it off wisdom instead of dexterity for combat reflexes with the condition that you need to have a warhammer in hand. A) For a hunter wisdom could be more interesting to pump than dex; B) A warhammer in an offhand, but a lance in your main hand if mounted gives you reach at two ranges); C) If you find a way to enlarge consistently, the fact your AOOs are keyed off Wisdom instead of Dexterity is even better...


Here is me proposing a "cool" option, not necessarily the most optimized.

For a drow summoner I would go monster tactician... Standard action summons with little dependence on your actual alignment...

You can give your summons teamwork feats. You can do some real cool stuff with summons that share teamwork feats with you

Once you are high enough to summon babau, umbral shift teamwork feat seems like a very cool to share...


Lúmë'órë wrote:

Hi.

Says it in the title. Please help me build an overpowered Swashbuckler for Curse of the Crimson Throne.

Why overpowered?

Because DM thinks we are optimizers and veterans, to keep it challenging he is keeping us 3 levels below Level AP. We will end the AP at level 15, and keeping wealth below norm.

20 point buy, 2 traits. I want to go Human or Aasimar.

Thank you.

For swashbuckler you could do worse than the trait fencer

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/combat-traits/fencer/

It should help with both opportune parry and riposte or disrupting counter


Carla the Profane wrote:

I'd go Flying blade with Signature deed on Disrupting counter and a Fortuitous dagger. You will never be hit and reply to.every attack with 2 AoO's.

Also consider two levels of paladin after level 11 to boost your survivability.

Other things to look out for is getting a Swordmaster's flair, some way to reroll saves and for a halfling, Risky striker.

You will rarely be hit and reply TO THE FIRST ATTACK of every round with 2 AOOs. (forfuitous = once per round).

Risky striker is not ideal for an AOO fiend (first of all you lower your AC, second of all you cannot use risky striker on an AOO).


Well Vega is probably human or a haughty arrogant elf, but if you make fantasy interpretation of Vega you may want to consider catfolk...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-catfolk/

you get claws and on top of those claws you can wear these (for which you get free weapon proficiency as catfolk

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/claw-blades/

There is a feat to get pounce with those claws (works on both natural and equipment)

and there is rogue talent that makes that you have D8s on your sneak attack with claws (natural & equipment), so you can go rogue or slayer (since slayers can get rogue talents)


PossibleCabbage wrote:

The other reason reach *clerics* are preferred is that you can take the Sacred Summons feat to get standard action summons instead of full-round ones that prevent you from making AoOs entirely.

So I wouldn't recommend summoning as a focus for reach casters unless they are clerics (or are another class with the aura class feature). You'd need to have something else useful you can do with standard action spells until people run up to where you can AoO them.

Or druids that have totemic summoning ?


Lausth wrote:
İt seems like no one likes dex over str for hunters.Shame though.By by skill points :S

I like the idea of this type of build for dex hunters, particularly this build.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/3xl61z/build_math_improved _disarm_partner/

I don't know if it really holds to strength hunters up when dissected but it seems cool as hell, maybe dipping into swashbuckler for opportune parry & riposte or disrupting counter.


Why not target of opportunity
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/target-of-opportunity-combat-tea mwork/

You don't really have anything else to spend swift actions on and AOOs are better than iteratives from the point of view that they are made with full BAB.
If you both have 3 attacks per turn you should be able to have one additional attack for your character and the familiar, no ?


Firebug wrote:

Yes, until things just stop taking AoOs. Then you are left with just failed disarm attempts.

This the biggest issue I have with the flying blade. Eventually, you just stop being attacked, and other people in the party get focused more.

I have 2 "parry" based characters. V, a human monk/flying blade modeled after V for Vendetta. And Merf, an undine (almost human, hat of disguise to appear as a Merfolk) UMonk/URogue/Eldritch Guardian Fighter. Fights unarmed with his trusty squirrel (protector, evolved for extra reach on its bite), both always prone (because he's a 'Merfolk' and doesn't have legs!) using monkey style, and intrepid rescuer. Basically, anyone who attacks Merf or his squirrel will provoke an AoO from each of them because they are prone (intrepid rescuer, paired opportunist)

Failing the disarm attempt triggers its own an AOO from IMPROVED DISARM PARTNER, for your buddy and since you both have paired opportunists it also triggers from you with +4 to the attempt.

the improved disarm partner is just a vehicle to turn the PC iterative attacks into AOOs for both PC and animal/familiar, doubling the attack output (because now you are attacking with two agents) and doing it at BAB +5 for the PC (paired opportunist+fencer/ and BAB +4 for the AC/familiar. Also because you are two weapon fighting, you squeeze in more attacks than you should be normally allowed for your BAB, this helps you fail the disarm, but doesn't affect you AOOs.

All of this is without using/opportune parry riposte or disrupting counter, I think opportune parry risposte or disrupting counter would just be the icing on the cake, another level of defense, you wouldn't need it by itself, it would just generate more AOOs (in case of disrupting counter)or better your protection (in case of opportune parry ripose)


would be ok for reach built Standard action summoners if it were not for combat expertise feat tax ?


Firebug wrote:

Martial Focus -> Ricochet Toss now you can have your Dex belt and eat it too!

Perhaps I have misused the joke...

Question 1) Are you using a dagger? It looks like you have Starry Grace so likely not. You should. If nothing else then for the crit range of a Dagger (19-20) compared to a Starknife. Also, River Rat trait for +1 damage, Deific Obedience (Pharasma) for +2 to attack rolls, and perhaps Fencer for +1 to attack rolls with daggers and sword like weapons on AoOs.
Starry Grace also does not work with Flurry.

Question 2) Point Blank Master, Why? You would "lower" your damage per round. I have a similar build, and I absolutely want to provoke, and as often as possible. Because of Disrupting Counter, combat reflexes, and a Fortuitous enchanted dagger. Though the latter is only once per round.

My build also didn't take Clustered Shots. ** spoiler omitted **

Disrupting counter is the coolest stuff ever since the invention star shaped ice cubes...

I would like to make a build flying blade 3/eldritch guardian X and have familiar sidekick next to me with paired opportunist& improved disarm partner.
The idea is a character trying to FAIL at disarm and then stab them with the AOOs.

one failed disarm triggers AOO from the familiar & me
The AOO from the enemy can be turned into an AOO from familiar and me
fortuitous would trigger a third AOO from familiar and me.

and doing multiple disarm attempts by round

Inspiration:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/3xl61z/build_math_improved _disarm_partner/

but subbing flying blade eldritch guardian for sacred huntsmaster

Think this could work?


One trick that could potentially work very well at low level if he intends to tandem from the second row as warhammer thrower with a barbarian tank is this:

both him and the barbarian would need to take it.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/betrayal-feats/friendly-fire-betrayal-teamwor k/

+2 to hit on the throwing action is cool start but the auto-triggering of an attack of opportunity from the barbarian should be a real money maker at low levels...

If both barbarian and forgemaster are allowed to retrain this could be a very cool mechanic at the low levels before the clerics spells hit the stride and the barbarian has multiple attacks to murderate stuff without help.


Here is possibly interesting tidbid.

Cudgeler style does not specify melee attack, it specifies charge attack and non lethal, so you could in theory do that with charging hurler feat, and fit the bola build still nicely into a scout charging build for sap master.
Itself cudgeler style is not that sexy on such a low weapon damage dice weapon, but cudgeler sweep is real interesting because again no melee requirement but there it says you can make a FREE trip attempt with a +2 mod, so you can do both damage activate SAP master AND do trip attempt with that that charge and make him prone

And then when the target is prone target him relentless shot as he is trying to get up...


galahad2112 wrote:

@ Kris

While Gorum's Swordsmanship allows you to use Vital Strike at the end of a charge, the benefit to BadBird's combo is that you can make an AoO with Vital Strike.

Basically, you walk up to your opponent, Vital Strike them (w/Power Attack). Felling Smash allows a trip attempt, which will have them provoke an AoO from Greater Trip, which you can then Vital Strike with Because of Gorum's Swordsmanship. Good Times.

got it, thanks


1 person marked this as a favorite.

One trick that I find cool for a Zon kuthon cleric is to dip a single level of oracle. 1 oracle/8 cleric.

If you get the waste curse from oracle you get immune to sickened...

This happens to work very well well with the divine fighting technique for Zon Kuthon: (which you

Flensing Chain

Your god invites all mortals to join in inflicting and suffering pain.

Initial Benefit(s): Once per round, when you hit a foe with a spiked chain, you can twist the chain so it painfully flenses both of you. You and your target are both sickened for 1 round, and the target must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wisdom bonus) or be sickened for an additional 1d4+1 rounds.

looks like cool beans to me.

Zon-Kuthon also has envy as aspect, variant channeling negative is one of the coolest things to force on opponent as asking them to try to disarm if they lack the improved disarm results in attacks of opportunity... This may be to difficult to pull off though given that you only have so many feats to burn...


BadBird wrote:

Gorum's Swordsmanship + Vital Strike + Felling Smash + Greater Trip is a match made in heaven.

Furious Finish on a Barbarian with one level of Oracle with the Lame Curse means endless Furious Finish by level 9, and it means Reckless Abandon has no down-side.

For felling smash you need to use the attack action, I thought with gorum's swordmanship you are using the charge action with vital strike effect tacked onto it ?


Castle Blades wrote:
Gorums Swordsmanship, Greater Vital Strike, and Spirited Charge while under the effects of enlarge person should help max that damage.

Nothing indicates that you can use greater vital strike on gorum's swordmanship though.


Why not warpriest or sacred fist on this build?

Scaling weapon damage, out of the box quicken for your divine favor, a lot more combat feat...

If you are just using your divine magic to buff yourself warpriest is a better fit then priest, yes you have less levels, but you can swift action mainline all buffs without it eating into your higher level spells...


Link to overwatch style
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/overwatch-style-combat-style/

Link to Friendly fire (FF)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/betrayal-feats/friendly-fire-betrayal-teamwor k/

Is there anything the impedes this working ? I read this thread from a while a back on vital strike not working for overwatch style because vital strike is modified attack action (or that was the consensus I understood from it). For FF it is very explicit that it is standard action and it is a ranged attack.

Triggering an attack of opportunity from your frontliner buddy, your familiar (eldritch guardian) or your animal companion (hunter, sacred huntmaster) seems like a pretty powerful option to me.


I got into a bit of theorycrafting yesterday on the crossbowman overwatch style build and I think there is possibly some really good synergy the betrayal feat: friendly fire.

I think it is legit choice. Friendly fire is ranged attack standard action.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/betrayal-feats/friendly-fire-betrayal-teamwor k/

"You initiate this feat as a standard action, making a ranged attack against a foe engaged in melee with at least one abettor. This shot deliberately forsakes normal precautions, putting your abettor at risk, but also is unexpected enough to surprise your mutual opponent.

You gain a +2 bonus on your attack roll if the attack passes through an abettor’s space. If your shot misses the target, you must immediately make a second attack roll with all the same modifiers against the abettor, potentially hitting her with the attack instead of the opponent. When the attack resolves (regardless of whether either potential target was hit), the intended target’s startled reaction provokes an attack of opportunity from the abettor."

You get a +2 to hit on the target which nicely offsets the readied action penalty from overwatch style so you are shooting at full BAB+bonuses with denied dex so you should be able to hit quite consistently. If you do you won't harm your abettor and that abettor will be getting an attack of opportunity for a shot that is fired, so if you have frontliner that is willing to invest combat reflexes and friendly fire you could be very nice tag team...


If you want to take exotic weapon proficiency as a human always take it as your human bonus feat not as your standard feat and grab it via human military tradition, you will get another exotic proficiency...

I'm not saying thatexotic weapon proficiency is actually a good feat, but as a human its a better way to get it because it will net you another exotic proficiency for free...


avr wrote:
An attack action is not the same as the single melee attack that a charge action gets you. Mounted skirmisher doesn't change all single melee attacks to full attacks.

Yes, I see that now. Thanks


avr wrote:

1: No, a charge is a different action and both you and your mount have to take the charge action to use it. You can just have your mount move then take your full attack which can be a whirlwind attack.

My mount takes the charge action (full round action) one attack
I take the charge action (full round action)

Attacking on a Charge

After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

My interpretation was that the mounted skirmisher specifically modifies the normal restriction of a single melee attack to a full attack action (provided my mount moved its speed or less) and if I get the right to a full attack action I can sub it for a whirlwind attack


Question 1

Lets say I combine 1 level of sohei monk to nab mounted skirmisher with a cavalier and I finish the chain for whirlwind attack (Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4)

Mounted skirmisher
Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.
Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.

Whirlwind attack
Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Can I combine and whirlwind attack at the end of a charge ?

Question 2 (only relevant if question 1 holds true)
If I am using a lance do I get the double weapon dam against every opponent or only on the first.

Question 3 (only relevant if question 1 holds true) let say I manage to fulfill the requirements for Gorum's swordmanship DFT (not so easy because it would also entail aligment changing from the initial sohei monk, but I am theorycrafting because hey fun stuff)... Can I use Gorums swordmanship on this whirlwind attack ?

Question 4 (maybe the most exploitative...)(Again only relevant if question 1 holds true) Let say I combine my build with a rogue scout to get scouts charge... Are all my targets flat footed and prone to me Sap mastering them the shizzle out of them or just a single target


Sacred summons should be in any cleric build that focuses on summons especially for a cleric that takes dark tapestry ! Hell yes you want summon as standard action... Neon blue feat because if mythos cultists can be good at anything it is summoning and this fits the fluff also perfectly.

And for any cleric that can do a standard action summoning AND is charisma based you do want quicken channel, well I would..

because negative variant channel monsters protects your precious and negative channel madness to make everybody insane in the membrane. Again effective AND fits the fluff like a sticky, smelly glove...


Energumen:
I don't know if the this prestige class would make sense on a warpriest but Lamashtu Shivaska, Sifkesh and Zura can take madness blessing.

The major madness blessing allows you to suspend all confusion in the area as a swift action allowing you to cast a standard action spell that clears the condition permanently or make sure you are not afflicted for a couple of minutes when the energumen has already cleared

On polishing the guide: There is very nice indie turnbased strategy game called Solium infermum from a company called cryptic comet that has a lot of beautiful "demonic" art, it's a one person company I think. If you like the art maybe the owner lets he use it by permission as promo for the game.


I Think you have stumbled upon the missing piece of an awesome TWF ruge sap adept build because of the Flat footed part in lethal acrobatics

Circling mongoose
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you are adjacent to a foe, as a full-round action, you can take a full-attack action to make melee attacks against the foe, moving 5 feet before each attack. You must move 5 feet before each melee attack you make, and can't exceed your maximum speed, exceed your maximum number of attacks in a round, or attack any other target until the beginning of your next turn.

You must remain adjacent to the foe, and your movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless you succeed at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. If your first attack against the foe hits, you are considered to be flanking the foe on your second attack. Subsequent attacks made as part of the full-attack action continue to be treated as if you were flanking the foe until one of your attacks misses, at which point your attacks are treated normally.

Combine this lethal acrobatics which would trigger on the first attack and all of the subsequent attacks to make flat footed and Sap master and you can just walk around an enemy and b%~*~ slap him for double sneak attack damage.


Just a last question before I withdraw to my batcave.

Imagine I'm a dwarven ranger. If I cast instant enemy: humanoid (giant) does the dwarven defensive trait trigger ? What about earth child style, what about ascetic style transferring the Wisdom to damage to a "monk" weapon from earth child style? Is this possible with the relevant feat prerequisites or is it deemed in the same boat as a bane weapon?

It's not gear dependent .
Cheers


Chess Pwn wrote:
Because of said ambiguities and perhaps because of my bias, it was not included in my calculations.

I appreciate that and I don't want to start an argument about this.

I would just like to know the theoretical difference between an optimized ranger that doesn't use this strategy and a similarly optimized ranger who does use this strategy as a benchmark with the caveat that may or not be legit. I'm fully aware that this may be ruled one way or another, erratad, nuked and whatnot.

I'll leave it at that. respectfully


Chess Pwn wrote:

Warrior spirit is a standard action.

That's why the WP and it's swift buffs wins. Getting a full attack off every round that ramps up to the highest DPR is more total damage then needing a full round to ramp up to the highest DPR.

Did you calculate the ranger holding a bane bow? If instant enemy as a swift action is a valid tactic then a bane of against the highest favored enemy is far better investment than a +2 strength belt. The belt creates one additional damage per hit and does nothing for to hit. The bane weapon give an additional +2 to hit and an additional +9 damage per hit...


Here is an idea, it doesn't fulfill all your requirement but I think its a fun (but cheesed haha) build, but for gnomes we do whatever it takes right.

Here is what doesn't tick your boxes.

*You are dependent on spells but not divine favor...
*You don't have access to advance weapon training feat.

I believe otherwise it ticks all your boxes.

A gnome hunter without an animal companion, will let you have the animal focus always active giving you the animal focus stag for a permament +5 movement and at level 8 a permanent +10 movement, In addition think you get the floating personal animal focus to str in minutes per day for a swift action for whenever you need it.

Hunter has martial profiency and while you are not obliged to use it lead blades will give you big boy oomph whenever you need it.

And here enters the spell dependency, the awesome AC and damage. At level 7 hunters get level 3 ranger spells. Instant enemy humanoid (giant)... With a one level dip in ranger you get favored enemy humanoid giant and If you haven't traded away the gnomish defensive trait and you ve taken the skill earth child style you suddenly get +6 to AC to that target. If didn't take that feat it's style a nice +4

By then you can also afford a bane weapon I guess, I'm not very good with wealth/level, but from what I read bane is the cheapest weapon enchantment.
that instant enemy triggers. You have + 2 hit from favored enemy +3 to hit from bane, and for damage you have +2 dam from FE +3 from bane +2 D6 (average) 7=+12 damage without power attack
If you go invest in IUS and ascetic style and choose something like a sansekuton you can add wisdom to damage on top the above, having two stats to boost damage is better than one.

After that you can switch to ranger for full bab and more favored enemy levels or whatever strikes your fancy


It's tidbid of information that I haven't seen in any ranger guide.

And I think it should be in a ranger guide if said guide wants to address optimization.


Here is a little something I have been working on for rangers/hunters if you are looking for optimization

Be a dwarf. Do not trade away the defensive trait, but do trade a away the hatred to gobbos and orks for the trait that replaces it with a to hit bonus to giants (its in the standard racial alternatives).

Whatever you do max out favored enemy humanoid (giant).
Get a bane weapon / or bane weapons humanoid (giant) if going for two handed, they are the cheapest weapon enchantment that exists I'm told.

Level as you normally would but you want improved unarmed and earth child style before you hit level 10 (ranger) or level 8 (7 levels of hunter + 1 level of ranger).

You can cast instant enemy now. As from now against every enemy that matters you cast instant enemy and say it is a humamoid (giant)

Bonuses to hit (outside of BAB and strength and other normal feat
+1 racial 3 bane (1 that became 3) + 6 favored enemy= +10

Bonuse to damage (outside of normal feat and strength)= +6 favored enemy + 3 bane + 2d6 bane (=7)=+16

Bonuses to AC: +6 to AC, if you also take favored defense humanoid (giant) this would be another +3 at level 10 probably to difficult to fit in at 10 but you would want to have this at level 15 for a +5 I guess.

I don't see any reason why NOT to be a dwarf and max out on favored enemy giants on high level play seeing that instant enemy is swift cast that can't be resisted


One of the things aspect of wolf has edge over enlarge person is that buffs dex instead of reducing it. If you would double up with savage technology BARB for 1 level your anger inquisition rage would also be modded that way I think ?

You then would get two stackable dex increases along solving your rage AC problem and making furys fall attractive especially if you would switch Dex Con scores for a higher dex score.


You can't use risky striker on a standard charge... it's few restrictions is that it has to be on the attack action or on a full attack. Until you manage to do a full attack on a charge risky striker is a "dead" feat on the charge itself even though its useful on regular full attacks


Does this work, can you get +6 AC AND add Wisdom to unarmed damage or to my weapon via ascetic style as a dwarf hunter..? That seems a bit too good to be true (as in it doesn't work) or is in need of an erratum if it does work no ?


Weapon versatility (needs weapon focus) will give any weapon Blunt and bludgeoner can make any bludgeoning weapon non lethal...

There is also blunt arrows and there is nothing RAW against a rogue using bludgeoner with blunt arrows.

TLDR Sap is a sap's choice imho :)


Bob Bob Bob wrote:

...considering Ninjas aren't proficient with saps, there better be a pretty compelling reason. They can both pillage each other's talent lists, so it's not that. They can also grab an advanced talent from each other, so it can't be that either (unless they need two).

Sap Adept works better for the Ninja than the Rogue (easier to get sneak attack with Vanishing Trick). Sap Master requires flat-footed and I don't think either class helps with that.

Scout archetype gives you flatfooted on charge (level4) move (level 8)

I think you can stack with skulking slayer for a nice 2 handed blunt weapon (not sure) and take the bludgeoner feat and do your triple damage based on a D8 rather than a D6

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