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What are some good rogue options for making someone flat-footed? I'm looking to take advantage of Sap Master.
Why would you want to deal non-lethal damage as a Rogue?
The two general ways to get Flat Footed are to engage combat with a surprise round (snuck up on an enemy, or the enemy just wasn't expecting combat from you) or stealth. If you manage to stealth your way up to an enemy or strike from invisibility, you strike flat footed.
Anything that gives you total concealment will let you strike versus a flat footed foe.
Use the Shatter Defenses feat.
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Feinting works
Dip into Shadow dancer for Hide in Plain Sight?
Normally the only way to be caught Flat footed is before your inititive on the first turn.
What are some good rogue options for making someone flat-footed? I'm looking to take advantage of Sap Master.
The Enforcer and Shatter Defenses feats are what you are looking for. The Bludgeoner feat will allow you more weapon choices.
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What are some good rogue options for making someone flat-footed? I'm looking to take advantage of Sap Master.
There isn't any.. Sap Master's tricks are designed to operate under the assumption that they are employed in a surprise sneak attack.
Unchained Dexterity poison stage 2, works even on other rogues. Requires: Unchained: Poisons; Blood of Shadows: Poison Use rogue talent
EDIT: also, the poison might kill them, because unchained, unlike how chained dex poison can only temporarily paralyze. But if you can then delay or cure the poison somehow after hitting them, that'll work out.
Why would you want to deal non-lethal damage as a Rogue?
The two general ways to get Flat Footed are to engage combat with a surprise round (snuck up on an enemy, or the enemy just wasn't expecting combat from you) or stealth. If you manage to stealth your way up to an enemy or strike from invisibility, you strike flat footed.
Anything that gives you total concealment will let you strike versus a flat footed foe.
I thought invisibility/stealth only made your opponent lose their Dex to AC (as from the Uncanny Dodge description). Could you provide a rule which supports your claim?
Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
Scout Rogue with Rhino Charge and Fast Getaway. Ready a charge as a standard that triggers during your turn, then withdraw. Repeat each turn.
Another way is to use Catch Off Guard and wield Combat Scabbards.
Two levels of Cavalier with Order of the Land lets you make an armed opponent count as unarmed 1/combat and also nets Catch Off Guard as a bonus feat.
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Feinting worksAgreed, though you'll need to do some feat investment to take advantage of it. Two-Weapon Feint is probably the best way to go, and that way you can wield two saps at once with little penalty since they're light weapons.
It's VERY feat intensive, but I'm a fan of Moonlight Stalker Feint & Greater Feint combined with dropping smoke pellets. I still haven't gotten a chance to play a build with it yet. *heavy sigh*
Why would you want to deal non-lethal damage as a Rogue?
The two general ways to get Flat Footed are to engage combat with a surprise round (snuck up on an enemy, or the enemy just wasn't expecting combat from you) or stealth. If you manage to stealth your way up to an enemy or strike from invisibility, you strike flat footed.
Anything that gives you total concealment will let you strike versus a flat footed foe.
I thought invisibility/stealth only made your opponent lose their Dex to AC (as from the Uncanny Dodge description). Could you provide a rule which supports your claim?
Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
That just means that the rogue can't be caught flatfooted at the start of combat. It makes no reference to an invisible opponent giving that condition after the start of regular combat.
Another way is to use Catch Off Guard and wield Combat Scabbards.
But this only works against unarmed oppoenets or am I missing something?
Another way is to use Catch Off Guard and wield Combat Scabbards.
But this only works against unarmed oppoenets or am I missing something?
You're correct. The plan then would be either to disarm them, or use the 1/combat ability of Order of the Land to at least knock one enemy out.
You can make up for the lost Sneak Attack from the Cavalier dip with the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat.
Disarming seems like a poor course of action considering rogues aren't known for their high cmb's and considering that many foes have natural attacks.
The cavalier dip might actually be worth while as it allows you to get off 1 full attack. If that full attack deals double SA few opponents should survive anyhow. Also it opens up the surprise weapon trait. Not sure whether cavalier (or samuarai or archetypes) has any other worthwhile abilities for Rogues though. Also you need to find a way to deal NL damage with improvised weapons.
The Shield Boss is an interesting option for slayers as they have access to the Ranger's Weapon and Shield Style.
That just means that the rogue can't be caught flatfooted at the start of combat. It makes no reference to an invisible opponent giving that condition after the start of regular combat.Why would you want to deal non-lethal damage as a Rogue?
The two general ways to get Flat Footed are to engage combat with a surprise round (snuck up on an enemy, or the enemy just wasn't expecting combat from you) or stealth. If you manage to stealth your way up to an enemy or strike from invisibility, you strike flat footed.
Anything that gives you total concealment will let you strike versus a flat footed foe.
I thought invisibility/stealth only made your opponent lose their Dex to AC (as from the Uncanny Dodge description). Could you provide a rule which supports your claim?
Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
Could you explain how you came to that conclusion, since I see nothing in the description to support your claim.
I also did a quick search at conditions to find that Invisibility does not make your target Flat-Footed.
Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See the invisibility special ability.
Losing Dex to AC =/= Flat-Footed
What are some good rogue options for making someone flat-footed? I'm looking to take advantage of Sap Master.The Enforcer and Shatter Defenses feats are what you are looking for. The Bludgeoner feat will allow you more weapon choices.
This. It's very feat-intensive, but it will allow you to sneak attack constantly so long as your intimidate is high. The only downside is that it doesn't come fully online until ~level 9. The good news is that the number of shaken rounds for Enforcer is based on your damage dealt, so you really only need one successful intimidate check per enemy (as a free action) and it'll last until the end of combat.
I like to use the Lethal Acrobatics rogue trick:
Benefit: When a rogue with this talent successfully uses Acrobatics to move through an opponent’s square without provoking an attack of opportunity, that opponent is considered flat-footed to the rogue’s next attack until the end of the rogue’s turn.
There's a couple of rogue archetypes which help - scout & scroll scoundrel.
Normally the only way to be caught Flat footed is before your inititive on the first turn.
Yes, but I think RD meant "making your opponent lose their Dex to AC".
Yes, but I think RD meant "making your opponent lose their Dex to AC".Normally the only way to be caught Flat footed is before your inititive on the first turn.
Nah, it's for Sap Master, which specifically needs your target to be Flat-Footed. That's why conventional means for sneak attack such as feinting/invisibility won't work, since they will only make the enemy lose their Dex to Ac. Which is another condition.
This. It's very feat-intensive, but it will allow you to sneak attack constantly so long as your intimidate is high. The only downside is that it doesn't come fully online until ~level 9. The good news is that the number of shaken rounds for Enforcer is based on your damage dealt, so you really only need one successful intimidate check per enemy (as a free action) and it'll last until the end of combat.What are some good rogue options for making someone flat-footed? I'm looking to take advantage of Sap Master.The Enforcer and Shatter Defenses feats are what you are looking for. The Bludgeoner feat will allow you more weapon choices.
While weapon versatility can change the damage type to bludgeoning, it still doesn't give the special ability "non-lethal", which is necessary for sap master/sap adept.
Rogue, UC rogue, ninja and slayer all have this sentence
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (such as a sap, unarmed strike, or whip), a (character class) can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She CANNOT use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack—not even with the usual –4 penalty.
Am I missing something ?
Yah. The Feat Bludgeoner allows you to do nonlethal sneak attack damage.
You can knock foes out cold with just about any blunt instrument.
Benefit: You take no penalty on attack rolls for using a lethal bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal damage.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls when using a lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage. You cannot use a lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack.Special: A rogue with this feat can use a lethal bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal damage with a sneak attack.
You can save yourself bludgeoner and pick up the mock gladiator trait from Heroes of the streets which allows you to deal non-lethal damage with daggers.
Then use that feat for Deific Obedience Pharsma for another +2 to hit with daggers.
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Enigma mesmerist has the level 20 ability:
"At 20th level, all creatures adjacent to the enigma subconsciously ignore him. Adjacent creatures are always treated as flat-footed to the enigma and are not considered to be directly observing the enigma for the purpose of the Stealth skill. This effect ends immediately if the enigma makes a successful attack against any creature, but automatically resumes at the beginning of his next turn."
The seems very amusing, as there isn't even a save, and it is not listed as mind-affecting. "All creatures adjacent to the enigma subconsciously ignore him." As written, as long as you were adjacent even to some deity or other, they would ignore you. lolz
Note that Enigmas do get sneak attack damage and could take Sap Master. They probably also want to take Accomplished Sneak Attacker a few times.
Betrayer might help.
You can save yourself bludgeoner and pick up the mock gladiator trait from Heroes of the streets which allows you to deal non-lethal damage with daggers.
Then use that feat for Deific Obedience Pharsma for another +2 to hit with daggers.
I might just try that!
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They probably also want to take Accomplished Sneak Attacker a few times.
You can only ever take the feat once if I'm not mistaken.
So, once you have improve unarmed strikes, can you still choose to do nonlethal with you unarmed strikes?
Well, the Monk's Unarmed Strike description includes this sentence:
"Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling."
And the Improved Unarmed Strike feat says:
"Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice."
Apparently there is an attack penalty (-4?) for non-lethal unarmed strikes, but the Monk and probably a few other classes eliminate it.
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Apparently there is an attack penalty (-4?) for non-lethal unarmed strikes, but the Monk and probably a few other classes eliminate it.
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).
Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.
If you want to do lethal damage with an unarmed strike, it is a -4 penalty unless you are a class that says otherwise or have Improved Unarmed Strike. You also provoke from armed opponents for attacking unarmed without a class feature or IUS feat.